Are they still Buddhists without Karma and other fantastics?
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However, only someone who is enlightened can testify that a particular practitioner has achieved enlightenment even if it's just a small stage of achievement.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Of course. There are stages of enlightenment and when one attains an initial enlightenment, he can be called enlightened, but not Enlightened (with the caps). In Buddhism, there are 10 bhumis of the Bodhisattva path, 4 stages of the path of Arhat.
Here's an article written by our forummer Longchen from his experiences: Enlightenment is a gradual process
The point is, can someone who is not enlightened be sure that the master standing before you is truly enlightened?
In scriptures, most of the time, Buddha is asked directly by disciples on whether someone has indeed achieved partial enlightenment in the Bodhisattva path or sainthood (the final stage being Arhat).
As Buddha is no longer with us, it's best to just concentrate mindfully and practise diligently on the Buddha's teachings. -
A human being who has achieved full enlightenment would have perfect wisdom and insight of the Truth of all worldly phenomena.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:There is a difference between asking what Buddhists believe and asking oneself.
He would know very clearly, as if it's a bright shining pearl in front of him, the varying mental and emotional faculties and aptitudes of every single living being in the entire universe. He would also know their every thought at each single passing second.
That is one of the few abilities described of a Buddha in the scriptures, a fully awakened human being.
So why would he need to ask anyone, he just knows it as it is. Unless he knows that by asking that particular question, it helps that person to achieve higher awareness of the Truth or to help the person achieve some form of progress in his spiritual cultivation. -
You are a romantic. I am a realists. If what you say is true, then it would be very easy for enlightened people to prove that they are enlightened and Buddhism will be the only religion in the world.Originally posted by Spnw07:A human being who has achieved full enlightenment would have perfect wisdom and insight of the Truth of all worldly phenomena.
He would know very clearly, as if it's a bright shining pearl in front of him, the varying mental and emotional faculties and aptitudes of every single living being in the entire universe. He would also know their every thought at each single passing second.
That is one of the few abilities described of a Buddha in the scriptures, a fully awakened human being.
So why would he need to ask anyone, he just knows it as it is. Unless he knows that by asking that particular question, it helps that person to achieve higher awareness of the Truth or to help the person achieve some form of progress in his spiritual cultivation.
You ask him, what am I thinking and he will be able to answer you. Anyone ask him what they are thinking about and he would be able to answer them, because according to you, "He would know very clearly, as if it's a bright shining pearl in front of him".
You better face up to reality if you want to achieve anything in your cultivation. -
Yes it is possible to tell if you have certain knowledge about it, and also, you can ask around those who are close to him, or other enlightened people, or the teachers whom they are authenticated with.Originally posted by Spnw07:However, only someone who is enlightened can testify that a particular practitioner has achieved enlightenment even if it's just a small stage of achievement.
The point is, can someone who is not enlightened be sure that the master standing before you is truly enlightened?
In scriptures, most of the time, Buddha is asked directly by disciples on whether someone has indeed achieved partial enlightenment in the Bodhisattva path or sainthood (the final stage being Arhat).
As Buddha is no longer with us, it's best to just concentrate mindfully and practise diligently on the Buddha's teachings.
Actually I can sometimes tell if someone is enlightened
but since I am unenlightened, I need to confirm with others who are experienced. -
Originally posted by Spnw07:
If you are talking about the ultimate nature of reality (luminous emptiness), then you are right.
A human being who has achieved full enlightenment would have perfect wisdom and insight of the Truth of all worldly phenomena.He would know very clearly, as if it's a bright shining pearl in front of him, the varying mental and emotional faculties and aptitudes of every single living being in the entire universe. He would also know their every thought at each single passing second.
That is true. But that is when you achieve Buddhahood -- Bodhisattvas and Arhats may not necessary have such powers.
That is one of the few abilities described of a Buddha in the scriptures, a fully awakened human being.
So why would he need to ask anyone, he just knows it as it is. Unless he knows that by asking that particular question, it helps that person to achieve higher awareness of the Truth or to help the person achieve some form of progress in his spiritual cultivation.
Actually, I do know of such people who are close to that being described... -
Truly enlightened people will only admit their spiritual attainment under certain special conditions. They do not see any need other than that, to proclaim or declare to the whole world about their achievement.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:You are a romantic. I am a realists. If what you say is true, then it would be very easy for enlightened people to prove that they are enlightened and Buddhism will be the only religion in the world.
You ask him, what am I thinking and he will be able to answer you. Anyone ask him what they are thinking about and he would be able to answer them, because according to you, "He would know very clearly, as if it's a bright shining pearl in front of him".
You better face up to reality if you want to achieve anything in your cultivation.
Why? A truly enlightened person has no ego at all, that is the simple and direct answer. Details you will have to ask a Buddhist scholar or the Buddha himself. -
But that knowledge of discerning whether a layman is enlightened cannot be easily imparted to another person or even if imparted, cannot be easily understood and hence achieved by a layman buddhist of normal intelligence.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Yes it is possible to tell if you have certain knowledge about it, and also, you can ask around those who are close to him, or other enlightened people, or the teachers whom they are authenticated with.
Actually I can sometimes tell if someone is enlightened but since I am unenlightened, I need to confirm with others who are experienced. -
Well, what is reality in religious matters and concepts can be very subjective. A realist may be considered a romantic in the eyes of others with a different set of beliefs and hence, actually labelled a non-realist who thinks he's a realist.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:You are a romantic. I am a realists. If what you say is true, then it would be very easy for enlightened people to prove that they are enlightened and Buddhism will be the only religion in the world.
You ask him, what am I thinking and he will be able to answer you. Anyone ask him what they are thinking about and he would be able to answer them, because according to you, "He would know very clearly, as if it's a bright shining pearl in front of him".
You better face up to reality if you want to achieve anything in your cultivation.
But l respect that this is your view and I hope you would refrain from giving people unnecessary labels. -
Yah right, "compassionate" but refuse to educate people....Originally posted by Spnw07:Truly enlightened people will only admit their spiritual under certain special conditions. They do not see any need other than that, to proclaim or declare to the whole world about their achievement.
Why? A truly enlightened person has no ego at all, that is the simple and direct answer. Details you will have to ask a Buddhist scholar or the Buddha himself.
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Erms, I'm simply admitting that I lack knowledge in Buddhism. I'm only sharing as far as to what I have understood about Buddhist concepts.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:Yah right, "compassionate" but refuse to educate people.... -
but must make sense mah....Originally posted by Spnw07:Erms, I'm simply admitting that I lack knowledge in Buddhism. I'm only sharing as far as to what I have understood about Buddhist concepts. -
but must make sense mah....Aiyah, you have to da liang loh. I know A, can say A mah. You ask for A part 1, part 2, part 3, then of course need expert liao loh.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:but must make sense mah....
I nber say I expert wat.
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The notion that somehow an attainment or realisation must be shrouded in mystery for those who hasn't attained it, that someone who has attained it must never talk and discuss it with others, is simply a very common dogmatic misunderstanding. In the ancient times practitioners were very open about their attainments, they didn't boast arrogantly about it, but they were very open and they often and frequently mention about it in appropriate settings. Take a look at Buddha himself as well as the famous disciples of Buddha.Originally posted by Spnw07:Truly enlightened people will only admit their spiritual attainment under certain special conditions. They do not see any need other than that, to proclaim or declare to the whole world about their achievement.
Why? A truly enlightened person has no ego at all, that is the simple and direct answer. Details you will have to ask a Buddhist scholar or the Buddha himself.
More often than not, if you ask those with such experience, they will be willing to talk about it. This is not about boasting and there is no need for that, but if you want to discuss this topic they will usually talk about it with you.
Please also listen to: Buddhist Geeks 9: Enlightened Teachers -
Of cos it's not easy and you need to be familiar with the maps...Originally posted by Spnw07:But that knowledge of discerning whether a layman is enlightened cannot be easily imparted to another person or even if imparted, cannot be easily understood and hence achieved by a layman buddhist of normal intelligence. -
Well, I think I may have caused some misunderstanding here with the way I write. I do not think that someone who has spiritual attainment MUST never talk and discuss it with others. As I've mentioned, only under certain conditions which would benefit the questioner. The Buddha would admit openly and directly most of the time, but there are sometimes when he merely keeps quiet or give examples.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:The notion that somehow an attainment or realisation must be shrouded in mystery for those who hasn't attained it, that someone who has attained it must never talk and discuss it with others, is simply a very common dogmatic misunderstanding. In the ancient times practitioners were very open about their attainments, they didn't boast arrogantly about it, but they were very open and they often and frequently mention about it in appropriate settings. Take a look at Buddha himself as well as the famous disciples of Buddha.
More often than not, if you ask those with such experience, they will be willing to talk about it. This is not about boasting and there is no need for that, but if you want to discuss this topic they will usually talk about it with you.
Please also listen to: Buddhist Geeks 9: Enlightened Teachers -
Yes, agreedOriginally posted by Spnw07:Well, I think I may have caused some misunderstanding here with the way I write. I do not think that someone who has spiritual attainment MUST never talk and discuss it with others. As I've mentioned, only under certain conditions which would benefit the questioner. The Buddha would admit openly and directly most of the time, but there are sometimes when he merely keeps quiet or give examples. -
Hence, for some, like myself, Buddhism is very mysterious. Luckily I'm not very concerned about how to know whether a person is enlightened or not. I depend more on the verses in the scriptures, recite and remember them as they are, and trying not to interpret or judge them with personal opinions when I get stuck.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Of cos it's not easy and you need to be familiar with the maps...
Cos I seriously don't know when I can get to really understand the knowledge for discerning enlightenment in a layman practioner while looking for a truly enlightened master at the same time. It's pretty much a catch-22 situation. -
No, it is not a necessity to see who and who is enlightenedOriginally posted by Spnw07:Hence, for some, like myself, Buddhism is very mysterious. Luckily I'm not very concerned about how to know whether a person is enlightened or not. I depend more on the verses in the scriptures, recite and remember them as they are, and trying not to interpret or judge them with personal opinions when I get stuck.
Cos I seriously don't know when I can get to really understand the knowledge for discerning enlightenment while looking for a truly enlightened master at the same time.
It's pretty much a catch-22 situation.
It just so happens that some ppl I come in contact with has told me many things and therefore I happen to know a few things about it
Most impt is to practise hard... actually to find an enlightened teacher for guidance is also impt, but I don't think it is necessary to 'obtain' any skill to discern the enlightenment of others -
Could you elaborate on why it isn't necessary to 'obtain' any skill to discern the enlightenment of others when you are searching for an enlightened teacher?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:No, it is not a necessity to see who and who is enlightened It just so happens that some ppl I come in contact with has told me many things and therefore I happen to know a few things about it
Most impt is to practise hard... actually to find an enlightened teacher for guidance is also impt, but I don't think it is necessary to 'obtain' any skill to discern the enlightenment of others
Then are you implying that any teacher that looks 'enlightened' to me will do? Sorry, no offence, just concerned about this personal issue of mine. -
its mus be hard for the moderators in this forum lols
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For the Arhat path pls read: http://web.mac.com/danielmingram/iWeb/Daniel%20Ingram%27s%20Dharma%20Blog/The%20Blook/51EE7943-0A69-488A-B5B0-3C8F2EF7C5E8.htmlOriginally posted by AndrewPKYap:any chance you can copy and paste some Buddhist scriptures on this?
For the Bodhisattva path pls read: http://books.google.com/books?id=5c0y8WJPn9QC&pg=PA50&lpg=PA50&dq=bhumi+one+taste+simplicity&source=web&ots=1Xy_rb9ZWN&sig=mWMr1SA2xnaZrcV18i20MuWD6Nw#PPA52,M1
The insight stage of Arhat is said to correspond with the 6th Bhumi.
You may also find something useful from
http://www.snowlionpub.com/pages/N50_4.php
and
http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=1660
and
http://www.khandro.net/Buddhism_maha_stages.htm
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisattva#The_10_Bodhisattva_Grounds (in terms of the perfection of virtues, paramitas)
and you can look into Lankavatara Sutra, there are entire chapters dedicated to the discussion of these stages. As Thusness said in Transcript of the Lankavatara Sutra sharing by Thusness, this is how he came by Lankavatara Sutra and got interested (due to the description of his experiences). -
I mean, there needs to be certain levels of discernment.Originally posted by Spnw07:Could you elaborate on why it isn't necessary to 'obtain' any skill to discern the enlightenment of others when you are searching for an enlightened teacher?
Then are you implying that any teacher that looks 'enlightened' to me will do? Sorry, no offence, just concerned about this personal issue of mine.
But you don't need to be a map freak, and discern which stage and which stage is that person at -
ok lah... only when I have timeOriginally posted by metalcar:its mus be hard for the moderators in this forum lols -
Haha, no, I don't mean that. Like you said, I need to know the 'certain levels of discernment' which should be part of any beginner layman buddhist's spiritual education. It should not be something that is made known only to a few who are supposedly seniors in terms of how many years they have become a Buddhist.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I mean, there needs to be certain levels of discernment.
But you don't need to be a map freak, and discern which stage and which stage is that person at
Perhaps one day I can post a thread that discusses the importance of being able to discern whether a particular person can be trusted as a true Buddhist teacher.
Without a personal ming2 shi1(a wise teacher), a beginner buddhist can only rely on his own, often to great disaster when interpreting or understanding Buddhist scriptures, verses or concepts. -
Yes. Actually it isn't very easy... because we cannot judge a person's enlightenment by his behavior and actions alone. Because a person may be very good in his behavior and action, but may not have transcendental insights. A person with transcendental insights may have behavior far from perfect.Originally posted by Spnw07:Haha, no, I don't mean that. Like you said, I need to know the 'certain levels of discernment' which should be part of any beginner layman buddhist's spiritual education. It should not be something that is made known only to a few who are supposedly seniors in terms of how many years they have become a Buddhist.
Perhaps one day I can post a thread that discusses the importance of being able to discern whether a particular person can be trusted as a true Buddhist teacher.
Without a personal ming2 shi1(a wise teacher), a beginner buddhist can only rely on his own, often to great disaster when interpreting or understanding Buddhist scriptures, verses or concepts.
I believe the criteria to see someone's enlightenment is by the criteria of insight. This is the tricky part, because firstly ppl like us do not have that insight firsthand, and therefore we have to judge based on many factors. It is not easy... many things to take into account. Get familiar with their teachings, practises and know more about the teacher.
Generally speaking, go for recognised lineages, and here are some advises and things to look out for: http://www.chagchen.org/aw/choosing.htm
Interesting article too -- http://web.mac.com/danielmingram/iWeb/Daniel%20Ingram%27s%20Dharma%20Blog/The%20Blook/2854F3F2-472F-47BB-9CE1-7D7F32A749C1.html