Impermanent of Things and Desire
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Hi people,
Im new to Buddhism and I would raise some questions here.
Recent I had a discussion wif my gf over the impermanent of things and the more people clings onto such things, the more suffering...
Qns raised were:
1) Are humans allowed to dream? Wat if my aim is to take a scholarship? Is it wrong to have such hankering since it would bring suffering?
2) Is this a defeatist attitude? Like we shldnt even try, since all things are impermanent...
Sorry if these questions has been raised before... Im new here and didnt hav time to go thru the forum at length...
Cheers =) -
Impermanence has nothing to do with a defeatist attitude. In fact because of impermanence, things can change for the better. It doesn't have to stay this way. On the other hand if all things are permanent, there is no need to strive for anything anymore, because nothing changes and therefore nothing can improve.Originally posted by Evangelion84:Hi people,
Im new to Buddhism and I would raise some questions here.
Recent I had a discussion wif my gf over the impermanent of things and the more people clings onto such things, the more suffering...
Qns raised were:
1) Are humans allowed to dream? Wat if my aim is to take a scholarship? Is it wrong to have such hankering since it would bring suffering?
2) Is this a defeatist attitude? Like we shldnt even try, since all things are impermanent...
Sorry if these questions has been raised before... Im new here and didnt hav time to go thru the forum at length...
Cheers =)
But because everything is everchanging, we must not be attached to gain and loss, and simply go with the flow. Something that is good can turn bad, and something that is bad can turn good. So we must not be attached to such dualities. Please read this sutra regarding the nature of eight worldly winds and how we should face such 'winds': http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.006.than.html
As for the first question, my understanding is that we are allowed to have (wholesome) desires and plans, however rather than being stuck in imaginery thinking, we should focus, with mindful awareness, on the action itself. Rather than focusing on the results of the dream or the imagined achievement, we should focus on the action that can bring about the change.
In this way we do not stay with the imaginery, we are grounded in reality. When we act out, for example, studying hard for the scholarship, we simply act out of our wisdom. When we are grounded in reality, we are not attached.
We must put in all effort in every endeavour, but know that gain and loss is conditions, yuan. We must never get attached to them.. in that way we can feel the joy of it, then we will be able to understand the meaning of dropping.
Dwelling completely in spontaneous actions than the imaginery, we then act without attachment to outcome.
Oh and was just reminded about something I posted one and a half years ago... but is quite important.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Source: The Power of Now, Eckhart Tolle
The Joy Of Being
To alert you that you have allowed yourself to be taken over by psychological time, you can use a simple criterion. Ask yourself: Is there joy, ease, and lightness in what I am doing? If there isn't, then time is covering up the present moment, and life is perceived as a burden or a struggle.
If there is no joy, ease, or lightness in what you are doing, it does not necessarily mean that you need to change what you are doing. It may be sufficient to change the how. "How" is always more important than "what." See if you can give much more attention to the doing than to the result that you want to achieve through it. Give your fullest attention to whatever the moment presents. This implies that you also completely accept what is, because you cannot give your full attention to something and at the same time resist it.
As soon as you honor the present moment, all unhappiness and struggle dissolve, and life begins to flow with joy and ease. When you act out of present-moment awareness, whatever you do becomes imbued with a sense of quality, care, and love - even the most simple action.
[Pause and meditate]
So do not be concerned with the fruit of your action - just give attention to the action itself. The fruit will come of its own accord. This is a powerful spiritual practice. In the Bhagavad Gita, one of the oldest and most beautiful spiritual teachings in existence, non-attachment to the fruit of your action is called Karma Yoga. It is described as the path of "consecrated action."
When the compulsive striving away from the Now ceases, the joy of Being flows into everything you do. The moment your attention turns to the Now, you feel a presence, a stillness, a peace. You no longer depend on the future for fulfillment and satisfaction - you don't look to it for salvation. Therefore, you are not attached to the results. Neither failure nor success has the power to change your inner state of Being. You have found the life underneath your life situation.
In the absence of psychological time, your sense of self is derived from Being, not from your personal past. Therefore, the psychological need to become anything other than who you are already is no longer there. In the world, on the level of your life situation, you may indeed become wealthy, knowledgeable, successful, free of this or that, but in the deeper dimension of Being you are complete and whole now.
In that state of wholeness, would we still be able or willing to pursue external goals?
Of course, but you will not have illusory expectations that anything or anybody in the future will save you or make you happy. As far as your life situation is concerned, there may be things to be attained or acquired. That's the world of form, of gain and loss. Yet on a deeper level you are already complete, and when you realize that, there is a playful, joyous energy behind what you do. Being free of psychological time, you no longer pursue your goals with grim determination, driven by fear, anger, discontent, or the need to become someone. Nor will you remain inactive through fear of failure, which to the egois loss of self. When your deeper sense of self is derived from Being, when you are free of "becoming" as a psychological need, neither your happiness nor your sense of self depends on the outcome, and so there is freedom from fear. You don't seek permanency where it cannot be found: in the world of form, of gain and loss, birth and death. You don't demand that situations, conditions, places, or people should make you happy, and then suffer when they don't live up to your expectations.
Everything is honored, but nothing matters. Forms are born and die, yet you are aware of the eternal underneath the forms. You know that "nothing real can be threatened."
When this is your state of Being, how can you not succeed? You have succeeded already.[/b] -
Oh BTW, Buddha did teach people to work their best for themselves --
http://www.jenchen.org.sg/vol6no2a.htm
Seize The Day
In the Noble Eight-fold Path[1] taught by Buddha, the Right Action[1] advocates practitioners of Buddhism to pursue all that are virtuous with zeal and a commitment to progress. Such should be the correct attitude whether in our career or in pursuit of the ultimate truth. The following short story may help to illustrate Buddha's teaching more clearly.
Early one morning Buddha and one of his chief disciples, Ananda, set out from Jetavana to seek alms. They came to the city of Sravasti. As they entered the city gate and were walking along a path by the city wall, they saw an aged couple.
Their backs were crooked and they could neither straighten themselves nor move about. They were dressed in rags, appearing unhygienic and well worn with age: frail, toothless, grey hair, hard of hearing and poor eyesight. They lived next to a pile of rubbish by the derelict wall of a sleazy alley. They crouched close to each other, facing a small fire for warmth. With eyes only for each other, they resembled a pair of old swans that cannot bear to part.
The Buddha turned his head and asked Ananda, "Did you see that aged couple by the wall and the warmth of the burning cow dung?"
Ananda replied, "World Honoured One, I see them."
The Buddha continued, "If this old couple had been determined and diligent when they were young and strong, regardless of the nature of their work as long as it is legitimate, perhaps at this age they are already amongst the wealthiest class of people in Sravasti. On the other hand, if they had chosen to renounce their worldly life to learn and cultivate the right path with diligence, perhaps they would have already attained the Arhat [2] by now.
Even if they were not that determined when they were young, but are ambitious and diligent only at a later age and they work with the Right Action, perhaps they are already amongst the second wealthiest class of people in Sravasti. Similarly, if on the other hand, they had chosen to renounce their worldly life to learn and cultivate the right path with diligence, perhaps they would have already attained the Anagami [2].
Worse still, should they only realise about diligence and progress when they are already at their middle age, and only then began to work with the Right Action, perhaps they are already amongst the third wealthiest class of people in Sravasti. If they had chosen to renounce their worldly life to learn and cultivate the right path with diligence, perhaps they would have already attained the Sakrdagamin [2].
However, they did none of the above. Instead, they spent their life times loving and possessing each other, and wasted the most useful time of their lives. That is why today they are helpless and have no way out of their predicament. They live in poor conditions, are penniless and there is nothing that they can do. For them it is a living death, having to face the retribution of their own doing, and nobody took any pity on them. What meaning is there in a life like this?"
In order to encourage people not to fall into the same predicament, the Buddha said, "Ananda, always remember to advise and guide people:
In youth, be determined, diligent, and thrifty and strive to acquire knowledge.
Maintain a mind that is distant and unchained from desire and be focused on building a career during the prime of life.
In middle age, realise a stable career that is based on diligence, zeal, progress and Right Action.
Always use the wealth meaningfully to benefit self and others.
Do not wait till old age and rely on the people's benevolence like the aged swan."
The above incident demonstrates the compassion of the Buddha in caring for sentient beings and encouraging people to be determined in striving for progress, regardless of whether one is concerned with building a career, or one who has renounced the worldly life to learn and cultivate the right path. His only wish was for all sentient beings to be distant from suffering and attain happiness in life.
Notes:
[1] Noble Eight-fold Path:
1. Right Speech
2. Right Action
3. Right Livelihood
4. Right Effort
5. Right Mindfulness
6. Right Concentration
7. Right Views
8. Right Thought
[2] The four stages in Hinayana sanctity:
- 1st stage - srota-apanna
- 2nd stage - sakrdagamin
- 3rd stage - anagami-phala
- 4th stage - arhat, the highest stage -
Because things are impermanent, you have a chance to try your best, or else everything is predetermined such as the common talk of "fate" and that my friend is a true defeatist attitude.Originally posted by Evangelion84:Hi people,
Im new to Buddhism and I would raise some questions here.
Recent I had a discussion wif my gf over the impermanent of things and the more people clings onto such things, the more suffering...
Qns raised were:
1) Are humans allowed to dream? Wat if my aim is to take a scholarship? Is it wrong to have such hankering since it would bring suffering?
2) Is this a defeatist attitude? Like we shldnt even try, since all things are impermanent...
Sorry if these questions has been raised before... Im new here and didnt hav time to go thru the forum at length...
Cheers =)
Wisdom resides in trying your best to achieve whatever you want to and be at peace with the outcome, meaning that because you understand things are impermanent, dont be overjoyed if you do get what you want and dont be too discouraged when you dont get want you want.
Taking it one step further, because things are impermanent, you will not lose focus and cherish what you have (for the time being), be it your job, your family, your partner, your wealth and all the karma that you encounter in your life. This is taking a true approach to life.
Now, does that sound defeating? -
My Thanks to An Eternal Now and Xprobe for the insights and reading materials you have given me =)
So if i wan to achieve something, i shldnt focus on the outcome itself, but on the process. I shldnt be attached to the outcome or the results of the outcome.
And I shld practise the Right Action and pursue all that are virtuous with zeal and a commitment to progress.
I have some problems understanding the below:
However, they did none of the above. Instead, they spent their life times loving and possessing each other, and wasted the most useful time of their lives. That is why today they are helpless and have no way out of their predicament. They live in poor conditions, are penniless and there is nothing that they can do. For them it is a living death, having to face the retribution of their own doing, and nobody took any pity on them. What meaning is there in a life like this?"
Is Buddha saying that being wealthy is better than to live our lives loving our loved ones?
To me, the couple have led their lives more fulfilling than those who are wealthy. They have each other for love and companionship. I feel that they led a happier life.
Cheers =) -
Originally posted by Evangelion84:
Yes
My Thanks to An Eternal Now and Xprobe for the insights and reading materials you have given me =)
So if i wan to achieve something, i shldnt focus on the outcome itself, but on the process. I shldnt be attached to the outcome or the results of the outcome.
And I shld practise the Right Action and pursue all that are virtuous with zeal and a commitment to progress.
Mindful/aware at all times, and not entertain any unnecessary sentient thoughts/mental noise. Put in all your effort and use your wisdom, but remain unattached.I have some problems understanding the below:
No, what the Buddha meant was those people who wasted their lives achieving nothing, lazing around because of relationships.
However, they did none of the above. Instead, they spent their life times loving and possessing each other, and wasted the most useful time of their lives. That is why today they are helpless and have no way out of their predicament. They live in poor conditions, are penniless and there is nothing that they can do. For them it is a living death, having to face the retribution of their own doing, and nobody took any pity on them. What meaning is there in a life like this?"
Is Buddha saying that being wealthy is better than to live our lives loving our loved ones?
To me, the couple have led their lives more fulfilling than those who are wealthy. They have each other for love and companionship. I feel that they led a happier life.
Cheers =)
Most people aren't like that and it doesn't have to be like that. So there is nothing wrong (for a lay-person, of cos monks are not allowed as they are celibate) to have companionship. -
I dont have the context of what you quoted. Just taking this passage at face value, I would say that this "loving and possessing" is an attachment based on "greed of owning" and "fear of losing", both which are contradictory to the truth of impermanence. Hence, suffering arises.Originally posted by Evangelion84:My Thanks to An Eternal Now and Xprobe for the insights and reading materials you have given me =)
So if i wan to achieve something, i shldnt focus on the outcome itself, but on the process. I shldnt be attached to the outcome or the results of the outcome.
And I shld practise the Right Action and pursue all that are virtuous with zeal and a commitment to progress.
I have some problems understanding the below:
However, they did none of the above. Instead, they spent their life times loving and possessing each other, and wasted the most useful time of their lives. That is why today they are helpless and have no way out of their predicament. They live in poor conditions, are penniless and there is nothing that they can do. For them it is a living death, having to face the retribution of their own doing, and nobody took any pity on them. What meaning is there in a life like this?"
Is Buddha saying that being wealthy is better than to live our lives loving our loved ones?
To me, the couple have led their lives more fulfilling than those who are wealthy. They have each other for love and companionship. I feel that they led a happier life.
Cheers =)
Buddha is not saying that wealth is exclusive to loving our loved ones nor vice versa. Buddha teaches us to cultivate a wisdom-based approach and perspective to both wealth and cherishing our relationships with closed ones. A "better" state of life is one which experiences less suffering, it has nothing to do with whether one has more of external things such as wealth or relationships such as "love". Suffering starts to decrease when one starts taking a trutful perspective towards things and events around him for the simple reason that he now understands how he and the world around him works.
Whether the couple is happier you really cannot draw a conclusion for the very fact that you are not them...it really depends on their individual approach and perspective towards their relationship with each other, which is also subjected to impermanence. -
means if someone's wife suddenly die , he understand that every things does not last forever including husband and wife bond .
he will be sad for a while and simply go on in life .
or so called dun be so attached to gain and loss .....
the first noble truth helps us learn the importance of cherishing what we have now .
also suffering will nt last forever .
like a father work very hard to send his son to university .
his suffering will end after his son graduate and go on to society to work .
that's how I see it .
theres no defeatism in this thing mah ....
I am new to buddhism .....
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sorry for double posting ! -
of course we can dream, and to work towards your goal but one should make good use of all these material achievements to benefit others & your spiritual practice. In this case, if you get rich, you can always give more to your parents, do donation, help in the spreading of dharma.Originally posted by Evangelion84:Hi people,
Im new to Buddhism and I would raise some questions here.
Recent I had a discussion wif my gf over the impermanent of things and the more people clings onto such things, the more suffering...
Qns raised were:
1) Are humans allowed to dream? Wat if my aim is to take a scholarship? Is it wrong to have such hankering since it would bring suffering?
If you want to take scholarship for your own material benefit only, then very soon you will run out of the good karma and who knows which realm you will go in next life?
Actually buddhism is the least defeatist religion, Buddha tell us what are the meaningless & poisonous ones that we shouldn't be attached, because even if you cling hard on it, it will still go away when the time comes.Originally posted by Evangelion84:2) Is this a defeatist attitude? Like we shldnt even try, since all things are impermanent...
Sorry if these questions has been raised before... Im new here and didnt hav time to go thru the forum at length...
Cheers =) -
Thanks for all the replies, guys... I learnt alot from you
Me and my gf talked about Buddhism today again and I would like to post another question:
I would like to ask about monks who decides to sever family ties (so as to cut themselves off worldly desires) to practise Buddhism.
Does it mean that Buddhism, when practised to the "maximum", requires us to sever all emotional ties (i.e. friendship and family), since emotions brings about suffering?
Im new to Buddhism... Im sorry if i raised some distorted thinking
Cheers =) -
There is only one "maxmimum" in buddhism, it is to release yourself from all sufferings and cease your endless reincarnation cycles. There are a lot of ways to attain this, and being a monk is only one of these ways. Which path to take really depends on one's individual karma, some are suitable for monastery life, some are not. For those who are not, Pure Land is one of the numerous alternatives. Point is, you dont have to be a monk to attain the objective.
also, you have a misunderstanding towards monks. They do it not to sever ties from family and friends, but to take their compassion to a higher and broader level which includes all beings. They move from a state of selfish love to selfless love. Being a monk actually benefits 9 generations of his family with merits to be reborn in the heavens.
P.S. Check around, all bodhisavas (except for Di Zang) do not show themselves visually in "monk" look. Rather, they have long hair and are dressed in crowns and jewels, like royalty. Why do you think this is so?
One step deeper - you dont have to become a monk to cease sufferings but you have to be able to become one. Well, this is not for beginners. Another time. -
No, but self centered attachment will eventually be dissolved. When one attains liberation one will be beyond attachment to such strong feelings. But you can still live as a family and love each other. I personally know many enlightened people (including some in our forum) who have families whom they love... my dharma teacher too is a lay person, though my Master is a monk.Originally posted by Evangelion84:Thanks for all the replies, guys... I learnt alot from you
Me and my gf talked about Buddhism today again and I would like to post another question:
I would like to ask about monks who decides to sever family ties (so as to cut themselves off worldly desires) to practise Buddhism.
Does it mean that Buddhism, when practised to the "maximum", requires us to sever all emotional ties (i.e. friendship and family), since emotions brings about suffering?
Im new to Buddhism... Im sorry if i raised some distorted thinking
Cheers =)
Also one's obsession with someone can be 'expanded'... to become the unconditional love and compassion encompass everyone, like a bodhisattva.. -
Examine your own thoughts.Originally posted by Evangelion84:Hi people,
Im new to Buddhism and I would raise some questions here.
Recent I had a discussion wif my gf over the impermanent of things and the more people clings onto such things, the more suffering...
Qns raised were:
1) Are humans allowed to dream? Wat if my aim is to take a scholarship? Is it wrong to have such hankering since it would bring suffering?
2) Is this a defeatist attitude? Like we shldnt even try, since all things are impermanent...
Sorry if these questions has been raised before... Im new here and didnt hav time to go thru the forum at length...
Cheers =)
"the more people clings onto such things, the more suffering..." and obviously you agree with that. The error in your thinking is that, therefore the answer is to "be attached to nothing"
What do you think? Does being attached to nothing removes suffering or does it similarly causes suffering?
So we go back to the eightfold path. Right thinking and right actions. Did it say, no thinking and no actions?
hahaha, you figure out the rest. -
Hmm.. Im not sure.. Is it to show that while they are dressed in riches, they are not attached to riches?Originally posted by Xprobe:P.S. Check around, all bodhisavas (except for Di Zang) do not show themselves visually in "monk" look. Rather, they have long hair and are dressed in crowns and jewels, like royalty. Why do you think this is so?
Thanks again to everybody, who have helped me out with understanding Buddhism. Looks like I have to do more reading to improve my understanding -
BTW, just like to add my 2 cents. First of all, I very much agree with what Thusness said, There is really nothing to alienate as the fundamental cause of suffering is not the inherent existence of evil in the transient but ignorance; ignorance of the true nature of things.
What is essential is, are we investing gain and loss with the sense of self, or the egoic identification? Do we identify with what we are seeking?
The 'self' is a very hypnotic thought... it blinds us, and binds us life after life and make us undergo uncountable sufferings. It makes us live in constant fear (for example, losing something you own -- health, money, etc.. or someone you love) and in constant pursuit (pursuit is OK, it is only a matter of whether you are identified) of our objects of desire.. because we invest and identify the 'self' with forms and objects, as 'Me', 'My, 'Mine', 'Myself', ever since we are a child and have been taught to identify ourselves with our names, and that certain objects/toys are 'mine'... the mind identifies 'self' and 'mine' with a gender, with posessions, the sense-perceived body, a nationality, race, religion, profession, a life-story, etc. And it is this covered up our original innocence inherent in all beings... and our true nature cannot shine forth.
Through practise, we can become aware of these identifications, and stop our constant feeding and entertaining of this karmic propensity, deep identification with a self... we will be able to recognise those thoughts/egoic identifications as illusory, and thus eliminate them, freeing ourselves from the burden and sufferings.
Not only must we eliminate the bond, we must be able to see how our "Propensities" blinds us.
When we free ourselves from such thoughts and identifications... and simply rest in naked awareness, we are free of the conditionings that has built up ever since you are born. Because the nakedness creates a huge gap, it provides us the condition for the arising of the insight of the 'deeply held'... the bond of the 'self' that is so hypnotic yet so powerful.
Lastly but not least there will will joy and bliss, there is liberation. The bliss in resting nakedly gives rise to the willingness to experience our lives in a very different manner... because we know that a new way of experiencing a higher reality, of the ability to live without being possessed by our thoughts and attachments.
Through Buddhist practise, we will also develope penetrating insights/wisdom into reality, and come to realise that there is ultimately NO SELF to be found... and coming to such insights is known as enlightenment. (For this please also read www.shambhalasun.com/Archives/Features/2002/May02/packer.htm) -
Oops. Link isn't working.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Through Buddhist practise, we will also develope penetrating insights/wisdom into reality, and come to realise that there is ultimately NO SELF to be found... and coming to such insights is known as enlightenment. (For this please also read www.shambhalasun.com/Archives/Features/2002/May02/packer.htm)
Here's the working link: http://springwatercenter.org/teachers/packer/articles/whatisme/ -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:No, what the Buddha meant was those people who wasted their lives achieving nothing, lazing around because of relationships.
Most people aren't like that and it doesn't have to be like that. So there is nothing wrong (for a lay-person, of cos monks are not allowed as they are celibate) to have companionship.
~ Fa Yin Xuan Liu (2), Ven Shen Kai -
Why?Originally posted by Troll Warrior:buddhism needs to die
BTW, you just lived up to your name. -
Maybe he understand the points I have been putting forward all the time.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Why?
BTW, you just lived up to your name. -
Originally posted by Troll Warrior:buddhism needs to die
-
What points?Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Maybe he understand the points I have been putting forward all the time.
And, let him speak for himself. -
Thanks to An Eternal Now for all the reading material
The chinese article has led me to understand the context of what Buddha meant with regards to the old couple he saw.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Hmm... With regards to alienate, are u referring to the context of monks alienating themselves from their family and the secular world?
BTW, just like to add my 2 cents. First of all, I very much agree with what Thusness said, [b]There is really nothing to alienate as the fundamental cause of suffering is not the inherent existence of evil in the transient but ignorance; ignorance of the true nature of things.
Cos i understand the article is talking abt "self", but it didnt say alienating from "wat" ?
Thanks -
It is not talking about monks.Originally posted by Evangelion84:Hmm... With regards to alienate, are u referring to the context of monks alienating themselves from their family and the secular world?
Cos i understand the article is talking abt "self", but it didnt say alienating from "wat" ?
Thanks
It is talking about not needing to alienate what is impermanent, bcos the problems lies not in the impermanent but in our ignorance and ego-attachments. Attachment to posessions, people, achievements, gain and loss, all have their roots in the 'self' delusion...