Xin/Mind/heart is not to be found
-
Hui Ke asked Bodhidharma if He could help settle his xin. Bodhidharma asked if Hui Ke can find his xin so that He can help settle the xin.
Hui Ke gained enlightenment when he realised that the xin was not to be found.
----
if i can somewhat recall, in The Shurangama Sutra, Ananda wished to locate the mind. Ananda was very smart to point out some numerous of location. But Buddha rejected all the location of the mind.
For example, he said the mind is inside the body. Buddha then explained if the mind is within the body, it should be able to see the organs in our body. Ananda then asked if it's in the eye, since the mind can "see". Buddha then said if so, then why can't you see things from behind, and so on.
---
ever come across the No Brainer? ppl with physically no brain yet they can function as per normal.
http://www.alternativescience.com/no_brainer.htm
/\ -
Yes this is an important insight
Shurangama Sutra speaks about it very well. -
if one dun have a mind how ?
6 sense roots all empty ? -
Originally posted by goldevil:
if no mind, how to "know" that the 6 sense roots are empty?
if one dun have a mind how ?
6 sense roots all empty ?
Guan Yin in Heart Sutra "see" that the Five Skandhas are empty. Guan Yin use what to see? Wisdom eye.
the thing is:
In The Shurangama Sutra, Buddha specifically explains that The Five Skandhas, (inculding The Six Entrances, The Twelve Places, and The Eighteen Realms) ARE in fact the Treasury of the Thus Come One.
http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/Shurangama/ps.ss.02.v3.020526.screen.pdf
isn't this "Made In The Image Of God." ;-)
/\ -
The Four Types of wisdom is another classification of the activity of True Suchness, in this instance, in terms of the functions which they inherit from the eighth consciousnesses of which they are transformations.
'The first five perceptual consciousnesses are transformed into the Wisdom of Successful Performance;
the sixth consciousness, the perceptual and cognitive processing center, is transformed into the Wisdom of Wonderful Contemplation;
the seventh consciousness, which ordinarily de- files the first six consciousnesses with self and self-related afflictions, is transformed into the Wisdom of Equality;
and the eighth, the storehouse consciousness, is transformed into the Great Mirror Wisdom.
Both the Wisdom of Equality and the Wisdom of Wonderful Contemplation first begin to function on the Path of Vision. As attachment to the distinctions of the sixth and seventh consciousnesses diminishes, the power of these two types of wisdom increases.
http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/Yogacara/BASIC%20CONSC%20ONLY.htm -
Depends what you mean by 'mind'.Originally posted by goldevil:if one dun have a mind how ?
6 sense roots all empty ?
If you don't have mind as in the faculty (as in the 6 senses) that gives rise to thoughts, you are not a conscious being, not different from stones.
Furthermore, all appearance are the manifestation of the true Mind -- i.e our true nature.
On the other hand, there are those who talk about attaining no-mind as enlightenment. This is a different matter, it is not about extinguishing consciousness or the faculty of thought, but transcending dualistic concept.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
[b]More on No-Thought:
http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/awakening101/shikantaza.html
III. Also distinctive of Dogen's account of Shikantaza is that it is the practice of "without thinking" (hishiryo): which is also called no-mind (mushin; wu-hsin), the essence of Zen Enlightenment. Here we shall discuss "thinking," "not-thinking" and "without thinking."
A. THINKING (shiryo): This is our habitual tendency to stay in the mode of conceptualizing thought.
1. About "thinking" a) Noetic Attitude: positional (either affirming or negating); b) Noematic Content: conceptualized objects.
a) Noetic Attitude is positional (either affirming or negating): A subject is adopting an intentional stance toward an object and, specifically, thinking about it in either a positive or negative way: "This is an X" or "This is not an X," "Do X" or "Do not do X."
(1) Consciousness is an intentional vector proceeding from a subject to an object. The subject is a cognitive agent.
b) Noematic Content: X is an intentional object pointed to and conceived through our thoughts.
2. "Thinking" can be pictured as follows:
c) Aspects of "thinking":
(1) Subject-object division present: an active subject thinks an object.
(2) Non-immediacy: We do not experience the object immediately but only at a distance, as removed subjects, and only through the thoughts we have of the object.
(3) Non-fullness: We do not experience the object in its fullness or "suchness" but, rather, only as filtered through our thinking about it.
B. NOT-THINKING (fushiryo): About "not-thinking": (1) noetic attitude: positional (only negating); (2) noematic content: thinking (as objectified).
1. Noetic attitude is positional (only negating): Subject is agent seeking to suppress its thinking.
2. Noematic content: The object is now the "second-order" object "thinking about X."
"Not-thinking" can be pictured as follows:
3. Aspects of "not-thinking": Same as for "thinking."
a) Consciousness is still an intentional-vector proceeding from a subject to the object. The subject is still functioning as agent, even if one trying to bring an end to its own agency.
C. WITHOUT THINKING (hishiryo): This is no-thought (munen; wu-nien) or no-mind (mushin; wu-hsin): pure immediacy in the fullness of things as they are.
1. About "not-thinking": (1) noetic attitude: nonpositional (neither affirming nor negating); (2) noematic content: pure presence of things as they are (genjokoan).
a) Noetic attitude is nonpositional (neither affirming nor negating): Consciousness is no longer an intentional vector proceeding from a subject to an object but is, rather, an open dynamic field in which objects present themselves.
b) Noematic content: The object is no longer an object that is the target of an intentional act but is, rather, the object itself as it presents itself within the open dynamic field of consciousness.
c) Aspects of "without thinking":
(1) No subject-object distinction: The subject has disappeared—this being the Zen interpretation of Buddhist anatta or no-mind.
(2) Immediacy: Without a subject standing back, the experience is one of immediacy within the dynamic field of consciousness.
(3) Fullness: Because the object is not filtered through an intentional act, it presents itself in its fullness.
(4) Such immediacy and fullness are genjokoan, "pure presence of things as they are."
It is a serious mistake in the understanding of Zen to refer merely to the "denial" or "cessation" of "conceptual thinking." Regardless of whether or not it can be proven than the pre-Buddhist Sanskrit etymology of the term Dhyana can be shown to have no-thought connotations, the main concern here is the semantic development undergone by the Chinese term ch'an in the course of the production of the Ch'an texts in East Asia.
It is quite clear that in Ch'an Buddhism, no-mind, rather than referring to an absence of thought, refers to the condition of not being trapped in thoughts, not adhering to a certain conceptual habit or position.
The error of interpretation made by many scholars (and by Zen practitioners as well) lies precisely in taking the term "no-thought" to refer to some kind of permanent, or ongoing absence of thought. While this assumption is routinely made, it is impossible to corroborate it in the Ch'an canon. If we study the seminal texts carefully, we do find a description of the experience of an instantaneous severing of thought that occurs in the course of a thoroughgoing pursuit of a Buddhist meditative exercise.
Nowhere in the Platform Sutra, Sutra of Perfect Enlightenment, Diamond Sutra, or any other major Ch'an text, is the term "no-mind" explained to be a permanent incapacitation of the thinking faculty or the permanent cessation of all conceptual activity. (source)[/b] -
"Hui Ke asked Bodhidharma if He could help settle his xin. Bodhidharma asked if Hui Ke can find his xin so that He can help settle the xin.
Hui Ke gained enlightenment when he realised that the xin was not to be found."
Let me ask ~BWB~ a question:
If "Hui Ke gained enlightenment when he realised that the xin was not to be found" why is it that you cannot say someone that realizes xin is not to be found (in the present day and time) is enlightened?
Don't you "realizes xin is not to be found" and are you enlightened?
I think by now you people should know that my questions do not come with simple answers and so please think carefully before you answer.
-
Simple ans: Because he hasn't really realized that xin is not foundOriginally posted by AndrewPKYap:"Hui Ke asked Bodhidharma if He could help settle his xin. Bodhidharma asked if Hui Ke can find his xin so that He can help settle the xin.
Hui Ke gained enlightenment when he realised that the xin was not to be found."
Let me ask ~BWB~ a question:
If "Hui Ke gained enlightenment when he realised that the xin was not to be found" why is it that you cannot say someone that realizes xin is not to be found (in the present day and time) is enlightened?
Don't you "realizes xin is not to be found" and are you enlightened?
I think by now you people should know that my questions do not come with simple answers and so please think carefully before you answer. (though he might think otherwise) -
what? got "really realized" and "falsely realized" one ar?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Simple ans: Because he hasn't really realized that xin is not found (though he might think otherwise)
So what is the difference between "really realized" and "falsely realized" ???!!! -
Maybe it's more of an exercise of intellect for most people.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:what? got "really realized" and "falsely realized" one ar?
So what is the difference between "really realized" and "falsely realized" ???!!!
They searched around, cannot find the mind, then made the conclusion. But he still holds on dualistic concepts because there is no insight/seeing.
Maybe there's one more step? dunno.. perhaps you can tell us.. i'm still unenlightened
-
hehehe... there are no answers... there is only seeking....Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Maybe it's more of an exercise of intellect for most people.
They searched around, cannot find the mind, then made the conclusion.
Maybe there's one more step? dunno.. perhaps you can tell us.. i'm still unenlightened -
So when is there seeing?Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:hehehe... there are no answers... there is only seeking.... -
hehehe when you see...Originally posted by An Eternal Now:So when is there seeing? -
Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
actually, need also to differentiate enlightenment and Full enlightenment.
If "Hui Ke gained enlightenment when he realised that the xin was not to be found" why is it that you cannot say someone that realizes xin is not to be found (in the present day and time) is enlightened?
Don't you "realizes xin is not to be found" and are you enlightened?
enlightenment is like peeling an onion skin, when peel to the end is then Full enlightenment.
so what Hui Ke realised could be a fraction of enlightenment or could be FULL Enlightenment, we wouldn't know.
moverover, even if they really achieve Full Enlightenment, like Buddha, they would still "look" as per "normal" to the standard ordinary eyes. problem is we wouldn't know for sure. in the saying, only the person who taste the water will know how warm/cold is the water.
/\