How to politely decline invitations to church?
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Hi all,
I've been reading some of your posts with interest and empathy. Christians can be quite pushy, expecting you to be open to their religion but are not open to yours.
Christian beliefs is not a monolithic whole. It ranges from fundamental to liberal. It is unfortunate that mainstream Christianity you see today has often been influenced very much by fundamental movements which tend to have a more literal reading of the bible. Many of these fundamental movements today come from the aggressive evengelical churches especially in the USA.
Throughout history, many liberal and esoteric Christian thoughts and movements have often been suppressed, sometimes violently. Don't forget that Galileo was almost excommunicated by the church when he claimed the earth revolves around the sun - untill he renounced his claims. In those days, once you are labelled a heretic (one's whose beliefs are contradictory to the church), your "crime" is punishable by death.
My general experience is that while many individual Christians want to do what they think is the right thing or the loving thing (and most of them are wonderful human beings struggling to be a better person), much of their actions are clouded in ignorance which gives rises to fear. Due to ignorance and dogma (often propagated by the church leaders whether directly or subtly sometimes for political reasons and sometimes by their own ignorance and fear) you can sense that in fundamental Christianity, there is a certain defensiveness, agressiveness, guilt and fear underlying many Christians' speech and actions. They fear they are not doing the right thing by God. Some are discouraged even to enter a temple.
I am a Christian and a great admirer of Buddhist philosophy and practise yoga. I have been criticised by Christians for practising yoga because they believe it is occultic. Is very funny because one church elder even said that acupuncture is occultic and told me to pray for God's forgiveness because I had an acupuncture treatment once.
But I remember what Buddha says - that we should examine all teachings, even those by our teachers, to see if they make sense before we accept them. It gives me courage that a great teacher has said this. The teachings of Jesus of love and compassion that breaks across cultural, racial and religious barriers are very similar to what is taught in Buddhism. Jesus also said that we should not be afraid of the truth, as "the truth shall set you free".
Knowing more about Buddism and yogic philosophy has made me admire all who seek the spiritual path because I know how difficult that can be.
Even today, there are still many liberal schools of Christianity but not many in Singapore. I do not believe that Christianity is the only spiritual path ("What kind of a Christian are you?" some may ask). If you read the bible closely and with fresh eyes, you will can tell that Jesus does not either - he believes that the kingdom of God is in your heart. This divinity that is found deep in the recesses of our minds and our hearts. The Buddhists and yogis have found this divinity through actual transcendental experience in deep meditation. Unfortunately, many Christians fear meditation. But this esoteric aspect of Christianity existed in the Gnostics and Essenes sects during Christ's time, and some scholars believe Jesus have Essenic roots.
Buddhist and yogic philosophies have helped me to be a more compassionate and confidant person spiritually - and I am so thankful to them that my worldview has become bigger and less dogmatic.
Om shanti (peace) to all. And bless me because fundamental Christians reading this is going to give me h*ll. haha : ). Thank you!
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Nicely written post you have there :) Welcome to the forum.
Just wondering do you belong to any church and if yes which? You can PM me if you prefer.
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No offence to anyone, but please respect all religon, no one can change the faith of other people, i mean who can??
what happens when a believer in buddhism try to "convert" a christians to believe in buddist? same way round.
I'm a freethinker.. peace!!
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Going to church can be quite fun. Just that many buddhists have no courage to do so.
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Originally posted by yamizi:
Going to church can be quite fun. Just that many buddhists have no courage to do so.
Conversely, one can also say that going to a Buddhist temple can be quite fun and that many Christians just don't have the courage to do so.
Please do not be mad at me for saying this, I am not trying to attack you but just trying to put in a different perspective.
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hey hey i went to the church and temple before!!! am i courages?? woohooo~~
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Originally posted by Maggie.meepok:
Conversely, one can also say that going to a Buddhist temple can be quite fun and that many Christians just don't have the courage to do so.
Please do not be mad at me for saying this, I am not trying to attack you but just trying to put in a different perspective.
You're right to assume so.
However, I think buddhist temples are boring.
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Originally posted by yamizi:
owever, I think buddhist temples are boring.
Can't disagree with you here, but with any luck this soon change quite soon. Some Buddhist temples (dharma centers as opposed to places for Chinese traditional worship) are starting to have activities/ fun classes for kids. Buddhist organizations such are also holding more talks on topics that are relevant to modern living in Singapore.The greatest challenge to Buddhism in Singapore is the joss-stick-Ex-Buddhist-turned-Christian who mis-presents (either inadvertantly or intentionally) the teachings of Buddhism.
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RAPTOR JESUS
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Originally posted by yamizi:
Going to church can be quite fun. Just that many buddhists have no courage to do so.
That might not be a fair statement.Going to church can be fun I agree, but the 'funness' (at least for me) comes not from the theistic/ spiritual offering, but from the 'human' factor. i.e organization/ activities etc.
I chose not to go to church not because I have no courage, but because there is "nothing in it" for me. I can easily enjoy the "funness" from other non-religious organizations with no spiritual strings attached, i.e. without having the need to constantly fend off attempts at converting me.
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Originally posted by Beyond Religion:
That might not be a fair statement.Going to church can be fun I agree, but the 'funness' (at least for me) comes not from the theistic/ spiritual offering, but from the 'human' factor. i.e organization/ activities etc.
I chose not to go to church not because I have no courage, but because there is "nothing in it" for me. I can easily enjoy the "funness" from other non-religious organizations with no spiritual strings attached, i.e. without having the need to constantly fend off attempts at converting me.
Hi Beyond Religion,
I can see what you mean.
Christian groups have very active youth ministries, which tend to be able to recruit and convert young people successfully. The good part is that they have idenitfied a need in society, that young people going through the scary adolescent phase need to be part of a group of caring people. Many young people think that they are going to serve God and learn about God, which is partly true, but they also did not realise that the group is fullfilling an inherent basic social need in them.
Buddhist organisations in Singapore have not as successful in this arena so far but this is changing. I see that KMSKPS also has a youth wing with many young people promotion their faith. But I just hope they will not be too fervant as I have seen the Christian youth ministries in getting conversions because peer pressure can be quite powerful. I think people should be invited to allow them to explore, to show them that people care, and ultimately to let them make up their own minds.
These approaches by Christians and Buddhists are just a manner of using secular/neutral methods in drawing people's interest, nothing wrong if the aim is to help.
I agree with you that social needs can be met in other caring (non-religious) groups as well. A non-Christian attending a Christian gathering, whether in the youth groups or in church, can often be quite intimidating and tiring as there is a certain expectation of conversation. Some people feel "obliged" (although this may be unconscious) because church people have been so nice to them. But to me, such guilt conversions are worthless.
I would hate being a Christian project for Christians. I would like to be cared for and loved because I am me - not because I am a subject for conversion, a number someone can add to the kingdom of God.
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Temple fun or boring is depend on what is your intention, if you are looking for fun, temple definetly not a place for you to go. One of the reason why i am a buddhist is because of the wisdom of the dharma. When i go temple, i am prefer to listen to the dharma talk instead of "fun" because i looking for wisdom not fun.
I think that is one of the reason why youngster prefer to go church instead of temple.
I also have been approach by my christian friend to go their church and how they confidently talk about buddhism which is totally wrong and sometime when i question him about christian, he likes know nothing about his own religion
. Also i have see many of my buddhist friend that is only "Buddhist" by identity, a lot of them cannot diffrentiate between what is chinese culture and what is buddhism teaching.During my colleage times, i went to church many2 times, the teaching just not suit me, i don't see any wisdom talk there, only praise the Lord of Jesus or the miracle that happen (maybe i attend wrong church? but during the prayer session, they talk in some strange language >.<)
I believe all relegion teach their follower to do good deed, it is just human its self sometime misinterpreting the teaching of their religion.
For me, it doesn't matter if the teaching is come from which religion, as long its make sense and not teaching bad thing (if i interpret the teaching rightly lol) and even if there is a lot of black sheep (monk) in Buddhism, it will not shake my faith on dharma, cuz monk after all is a human being who is trying to learn buddhism path and monk is just a "rank", a "name" and they bound to do the wrong thing, interpret the wrong thing (or maybe i interpret wrong lol)
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Originally posted by Beyond Religion:
That might not be a fair statement.Going to church can be fun I agree, but the 'funness' (at least for me) comes not from the theistic/ spiritual offering, but from the 'human' factor. i.e organization/ activities etc.
I chose not to go to church not because I have no courage, but because there is "nothing in it" for me. I can easily enjoy the "funness" from other non-religious organizations with no spiritual strings attached, i.e. without having the need to constantly fend off attempts at converting me.
Only people who been to church would understand the difference between spiritual offering and the 'human' factor.
Can I rightly assume you had some experience going to church or attended a cell group meeting?
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Originally posted by Zerg:
Temple fun or boring is depend on what is your intention, if you are looking for fun, temple definetly not a place for you to go. One of the reason why i am a buddhist is because of the wisdom of the dharma. When i go temple, i am prefer to listen to the dharma talk instead of "fun" because i looking for wisdom not fun.
I think that is one of the reason why youngster prefer to go church instead of temple.
I also have been approach by my christian friend to go their church and how they confidently talk about buddhism which is totally wrong and sometime when i question him about christian, he likes know nothing about his own religion
. Also i have see many of my buddhist friend that is only "Buddhist" by identity, a lot of them cannot diffrentiate between what is chinese culture and what is buddhism teaching.During my colleage times, i went to church many2 times, the teaching just not suit me, i don't see any wisdom talk there, only praise the Lord of Jesus or the miracle that happen (maybe i attend wrong church? but during the prayer session, they talk in some strange language >.<)
I believe all relegion teach their follower to do good deed, it is just human its self sometime misinterpreting the teaching of their religion.
For me, it doesn't matter if the teaching is come from which religion, as long its make sense and not teaching bad thing (if i interpret the teaching rightly lol) and even if there is a lot of black sheep (monk) in Buddhism, it will not shake my faith on dharma, cuz monk after all is a human being who is trying to learn buddhism path and monk is just a "rank", a "name" and they bound to do the wrong thing, interpret the wrong thing (or maybe i interpret wrong lol)
If attaining wisdom is not fun, what is the point of attaining it?
If you had attended a sermon, what the pastor teach there is not necessary inferior to what the Buddha had taught =)
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Originally posted by Maggie.meepok:
Hi Beyond Religion,
I can see what you mean.
Christian groups have very active youth ministries, which tend to be able to recruit and convert young people successfully. The good part is that they have idenitfied a need in society, that young people going through the scary adolescent phase need to be part of a group of caring people. Many young people think that they are going to serve God and learn about God, which is partly true, but they also did not realise that the group is fullfilling an inherent basic social need in them.
Buddhist organisations in Singapore have not as successful in this arena so far but this is changing. I see that KMSKPS also has a youth wing with many young people promotion their faith. But I just hope they will not be too fervant as I have seen the Christian youth ministries in getting conversions because peer pressure can be quite powerful. I think people should be invited to allow them to explore, to show them that people care, and ultimately to let them make up their own minds.
These approaches by Christians and Buddhists are just a manner of using secular/neutral methods in drawing people's interest, nothing wrong if the aim is to help.
I agree with you that social needs can be met in other caring (non-religious) groups as well. A non-Christian attending a Christian gathering, whether in the youth groups or in church, can often be quite intimidating and tiring as there is a certain expectation of conversation. Some people feel "obliged" (although this may be unconscious) because church people have been so nice to them. But to me, such guilt conversions are worthless.
I would hate being a Christian project for Christians. I would like to be cared for and loved because I am me - not because I am a subject for conversion, a number someone can add to the kingdom of God.
I just received a letter written by a fellow buddhist with photograph-evidence how hypocrite PKS is - in one manner promoting buddhism and in another manner encouraging the burning of joss papers! Haha.
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Originally posted by Maggie.meepok:
Hi Beyond Religion,
I can see what you mean.
Christian groups have very active youth ministries, which tend to be able to recruit and convert young people successfully. The good part is that they have idenitfied a need in society, that young people going through the scary adolescent phase need to be part of a group of caring people. Many young people think that they are going to serve God and learn about God, which is partly true, but they also did not realise that the group is fullfilling an inherent basic social need in them.
Buddhist organisations in Singapore have not as successful in this arena so far but this is changing. I see that KMSKPS also has a youth wing with many young people promotion their faith. But I just hope they will not be too fervant as I have seen the Christian youth ministries in getting conversions because peer pressure can be quite powerful. I think people should be invited to allow them to explore, to show them that people care, and ultimately to let them make up their own minds.
These approaches by Christians and Buddhists are just a manner of using secular/neutral methods in drawing people's interest, nothing wrong if the aim is to help.
I agree with you that social needs can be met in other caring (non-religious) groups as well. A non-Christian attending a Christian gathering, whether in the youth groups or in church, can often be quite intimidating and tiring as there is a certain expectation of conversation. Some people feel "obliged" (although this may be unconscious) because church people have been so nice to them. But to me, such guilt conversions are worthless.
I would hate being a Christian project for Christians. I would like to be cared for and loved because I am me - not because I am a subject for conversion, a number someone can add to the kingdom of God.
By the way, having many people promoting their faith is not proportionate to the success of buddhist youth we are having.
I guess many people are still missing the point here.
But...church is fun!
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Originally posted by yamizi:
If attaining wisdom is not fun, what is the point of attaining it?
If you had attended a sermon, what the pastor teach there is not necessary inferior to what the Buddha had taught =)
I would frankly tell you a christian priest is much wiser than a pastor. For a pastor, you just have a degree in Theology and thats it, you're qualified. A pastor may not even be sure of words in the scriptures and preach false information to his/her member. A Preist definately different. Their whole life is dedicated to spiritual life, and i can tell you catholic priest are more authentic.
Ohh, so now you are pulling down the level of our Buddha right? Why compare a pastor with Buddha? Your statement is equivalent to saying great spiritual leaders like Jesus is comparable to a pastor. You dare say so?
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Originally posted by yamizi:
By the way, having many people promoting their faith is not proportionate to the success of buddhist youth we are having.
I guess many people are still missing the point here.
But...church is fun!
yea, church is fun. so what? so what is you hidden meaning here?
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Originally posted by yamizi:
I just received a letter written by a fellow buddhist with photograph-evidence how hypocrite PKS is - in one manner promoting buddhism and in another manner encouraging the burning of joss papers! Haha.
Do you have evidence? Show then say la. Haha. Talking no use, cos' seeing is believing as you would know.
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Originally posted by wilsonhao:
I would frankly tell you a christian priest is much wiser than a pastor. For a pastor, you just have a degree in Theology and thats it, you're qualified. A pastor may not even be sure of words in the scriptures and preach false information to his/her member. A Preist definately different. Their whole life is dedicated to spiritual life, and i can tell you catholic priest are more authentic.
Ohh, so now you are pulling down the level of our Buddha right? Why compare a pastor with Buddha? Your statement is equivalent to saying great spiritual leaders like Jesus is comparable to a pastor. You dare say so?
Don't bother with such people lah. Like another member of this forum he's got nothing better to do.
Oh yah. There's an interesting article in today's (3/9/2008) Straits Times Home Pg 3 on how more than half of christian clerics frown upon inter-religious meetings and such, and that more adolescents define themselves as "christian" than "buddhist/taoist" than in the previous population census in 2004 (worrying trend, we Buddhists have to buck up!). Will post it on here later in the day if someone does not do so before me.
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Originally posted by sanath:
Don't bother with such people lah. Like another member of this forum he's got nothing better to do.
Oh yah. There's an interesting article in today's (3/9/2008) Straits Times Home Pg 3 on how more than half of christian clerics frown upon inter-religious meetings and such, and that more adolescents define themselves as "christian" than "buddhist/taoist" than in the previous population census in 2004 (worrying trend, we Buddhists have to buck up!). Will post it on here later in the day if someone does not do so before me.
I think that same article also mentioned that a significant portion in the Christian clergy is not keen of the inter-religious meetings because they fear that these talks will compromise their faith.Not surprising to me. Per my own observation, one of the methods Christianity use to gain converts from Buddhist/ Taoist is by mis-representing Buddhism and Taoism. Naturally the clergy will be fearful once the real teachings of Buddhism/ Taoism is brought to light in these interactions.
On something related, I don't believe Yamizi is trolling (unlike the other member of this forum).... I think he is just being brutally frank.
Yamizi, if you are reading this, perhaps you can state your point clearly and directly, if not kena mistook for a troll.
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Originally posted by yamizi:
If attaining wisdom is not fun, what is the point of attaining it?
If you had attended a sermon, what the pastor teach there is not necessary inferior to what the Buddha had taught =)
Then again, why must be fun in order to attain the wisdom? For me, I look for spritual side instead of "fun" that you are looking for, You attend a religious talk is because you want to know more about it, not to have fun ,like other forumer said, fun can be find not only in churchI never compare whether other religion is more better than buddhism or not, for me i more suits to Buddhism rather than other religion,it will be kinda impossible to persuade me to convert to other religion especially i learn Buddhism from young and most of the people who try to convert me, some of them try to talk how Buddhist not make sense only make me smile because they don't even know what they are talking is true or not.
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Originally posted by Zerg:
Then again, why must be fun in order to attain the wisdom? For me, I look for spritual side instead of "fun" that you are looking for, You attend a religious talk is because you want to know more about it, not to have fun ,like other forumer said, fun can be find not only in churchI never compare whether other religion is more better than buddhism or not, for me i more suits to Buddhism rather than other religion,it will be kinda impossible to persuade me to convert to other religion especially i learn Buddhism from young and most of the people who try to convert me, some of them try to talk how Buddhist not make sense only make me smile because they don't even know what they are talking is true or not.
Yea, youre right. These converters know nuts about buddhism and talk as if they know buddhism inside out. But im very sure many buddhist and atheist know about the bible in great detail too. Some christians say atheist are atheist because they know nothing about christianity. But guess what? Many of the atheist are actually very well versed in the bible. It is simply because of what they have read that they decided to stay as atheist.
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Originally posted by yamizi:
If attaining wisdom is not fun, what is the point of attaining it?
If you had attended a sermon, what the pastor teach there is not necessary inferior to what the Buddha had taught =)
I'm not suggesting here that we shouldn't be making dharma centers 'fun places' to go to, in fact it should and why not. However I do not agree that attaining wisdom is all about funness and there is no other point of attaining wisdom other than 'funness'.
What if spirituality is not about the funness we perceive it to be. I mean, if you have cancer right now and is lying on bed in hospital, can you really have 'fun' in our normal understanding? But does having illness mean we can't be spiritual or we shouldn't attain wisdom?
Spirituality and wisdom is not about funness but must be something something we live in our everyday lives and be able to apply in every situation whether seemingly fun or not.
Then there is just the sheer joy and clarity and freedom unconditioned by circumstances.
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Originally posted by sanath:
Don't bother with such people lah. Like another member of this forum he's got nothing better to do.
Oh yah. There's an interesting article in today's (3/9/2008) Straits Times Home Pg 3 on how more than half of christian clerics frown upon inter-religious meetings and such, and that more adolescents define themselves as "christian" than "buddhist/taoist" than in the previous population census in 2004 (worrying trend, we Buddhists have to buck up!). Will post it on here later in the day if someone does not do so before me.
Hi Sanath, Beyond Religion,
I read that article in the ST today too. And what is worrying is what Beyond Religion has noted in the report - that many Christian clergy fear inter-faith dialogue as they worry that this may compromise their faith.
What is noted by the researcher Dr Matthews is similar to what I have expressed in my recent post in this same topic (see 30 Aug 5.05pm). He noted that Christianity in Singapore tends to be conservative, evangelical , "embracing and exclusivist stance" in viewing other religions. I am a Christian and this is consistent with my gut feel when I attend church and this situation REALLY worries me.
This is because I have seen this happening in history. In Europe in the middle ages to just before the Reformation when Christianity and the clergy controlled Europe - for close to 1500 years, there was so much abuse when politics and religion become one. At that time, so-called Christianity pervaded all aspects of life and there was no freedom - even to think.
But the Catholics are actually more open and more accepting of other religions - even the priests. I know this because I have Catholic friends. Unlike the Protestants, they are not aggressive in trying to convert others and are more respectful and accepting of others with different relgions. One priest told my Catholic friend that the Catholic church is a very big and old organisation and there are things that will take a long time to change but he urged my friend at the end of it - use your conscience in deciding, not just follow blindly. In fact, anyone who wants to convert need to attend a one year course to understand what they are in for, and the church have been known even to turn people away if they find they are not serious or not ready. However, Protestants or Independant churches tend to practise the opppsite = they try to get a conversion out of you first eg at a church rally or a church altar call.
Catholics are more open to inter-faith marriages but Protestants discourage it strongly - you will get a lot of people expressing concern to you in church if you intend to marry someone of a different religion. It is frowned upon as they deem it "unequally yoke". (Although I agree that having same religion can promote a good marriage and spirtual support for both partners in the marriage, I have also seen people with different religious backgrounds having good marriages. Conversely, there are also couples with same relgion that tear each others' eyes out. )
I am a Christian and I feel that knowing more about other faiths and the essence of the religion has helped me to be a better Christian, that made me realise that spiritual aspirants form other faiths are also very sincere. In my heart, I feel that certainly God would not and cannot deny their efforts and I will not want to convert others if they are happy with their faith, unless they want to know more about my faith.
While I share this, I seek all Buddhists reading this to exercise compassionate wisdom and not be angry and agressive in turn as this is against the spirit of our different faiths. Fundamentalism and its related intolerance hijacked and misrepresented Jesus' message of love and inclusiveness but they do not represent all Christians. But there is a trend where fundamental elements are entering mainstream Christianity and I am worried and dismayed.
That is why I hope that there will be more Buddhists or Catholics around as they are more tolerant and will serve as a counter-acting influence to the more aggressive forms of Christianity as a "balance of power" and more importantly give people a chance to see that they are viable choices when it comes to seeking a spiritual path. I hope that even those who choose Chrisitianity eventually can see that there is a choice between an agressive/exclusive approach vs more moderate/ inclusive path.