How to politely decline invitations to church?
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Glad Christian have a follower like you :)
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Originally posted by Zerg:
Temple fun or boring is depend on what is your intention, if you are looking for fun, temple definetly not a place for you to go. One of the reason why i am a buddhist is because of the wisdom of the dharma. When i go temple, i am prefer to listen to the dharma talk instead of "fun" because i looking for wisdom not fun.
I think that is one of the reason why youngster prefer to go church instead of temple.
I also have been approach by my christian friend to go their church and how they confidently talk about buddhism which is totally wrong and sometime when i question him about christian, he likes know nothing about his own religion
. Also i have see many of my buddhist friend that is only "Buddhist" by identity, a lot of them cannot diffrentiate between what is chinese culture and what is buddhism teaching.During my colleage times, i went to church many2 times, the teaching just not suit me, i don't see any wisdom talk there, only praise the Lord of Jesus or the miracle that happen (maybe i attend wrong church? but during the prayer session, they talk in some strange language >.<)
I believe all relegion teach their follower to do good deed, it is just human its self sometime misinterpreting the teaching of their religion.
For me, it doesn't matter if the teaching is come from which religion, as long its make sense and not teaching bad thing (if i interpret the teaching rightly lol) and even if there is a lot of black sheep (monk) in Buddhism, it will not shake my faith on dharma, cuz monk after all is a human being who is trying to learn buddhism path and monk is just a "rank", a "name" and they bound to do the wrong thing, interpret the wrong thing (or maybe i interpret wrong lol)
Hi Zerg,
You have humourous yet meaninful post here. The thing that strikes me is your last sentence "or maybe i interpret wrong lol".
That, I think, is the most wonderful thing about your post - that you question even yourself that sometimes you may interpret wrongly. And I think that even when we believe in something, even leaving a small little window open for other possibilities as our knowledge and experience changes over time is the mark of an enquiring mind. Opening up to possibilities does not mean we are wishy washy in our beliefs but that we are open to correcting our views when the evidence supports the need to.
Being closed to all possibilities, being 100% or 200% leaving no room whatsoever of other possibilities is a very scary thing to me as this is the start of dogma, and in our case religious dogmas - ideas which a particular religion claim to be the infallible truth that is not open to any challenge.
So keep it up. You have an interesting and captivating way in expressing yourself haha!!!
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Hi Maggie_meepok,
whilst i agree that in modern times Catholics tend to be more tolerant than their Protestant counterparts, it was not always so. In fact, it was only after Vatican II (1965) that the Catholic Church became more tolerant and open to other faiths, including to Protestants and Jews. There are those who still believe that it is only through the "Holy Catholic Church" that salvation is assured. My mum who is Catholic objected quite strongly when i wanted to convert to Buddhism 15 years ago, likewise, so did some of my devout Protestant relatives (mostly Anglicans, because my great-grandfather was an Anglican missionary from China). It was only after my mum's parish priest (a french! if local maybe not...) convinced her that it would be better for me to convert was i given the "green light". And remember, the Catholic Church did some of the worst persecutions against non-catholics (Protestants and Jews) in Europe and Asia.
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Originally posted by wilsonhao:
Do you have evidence? Show then say la. Haha. Talking no use, cos' seeing is believing as you would know.
Next time when pks has liang huang bao chan or that near 7th month or qing ming, you can go there and take a good look yourself =) -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
I'm not suggesting here that we shouldn't be making dharma centers 'fun places' to go to, in fact it should and why not. However I do not agree that attaining wisdom is all about funness and there is no other point of attaining wisdom other than 'funness'.
What if spirituality is not about the funness we perceive it to be. I mean, if you have cancer right now and is lying on bed in hospital, can you really have 'fun' in our normal understanding? But does having illness mean we can't be spiritual or we shouldn't attain wisdom?
Spirituality and wisdom is not about funness but must be something something we live in our everyday lives and be able to apply in every situation whether seemingly fun or not.
Then there is just the sheer joy and clarity and freedom unconditioned by circumstances.
I'm sad that you're not enjoying your life everyday.
Define 'fun'.
Must fun be the fun you think it is?
Heh.
A lot of theory, little practical in this forum still.
Bye!
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Originally posted by yamizi:
I'm sad that you're not enjoying your life everyday.
Define 'fun'.
Must fun be the fun you think it is?
Heh.
A lot of theory, little practical in this forum still.
Bye!
Of course fun must be the fun I think it is. Should it be what you think it is?
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Originally posted by yamizi:
I'm sad that you're not enjoying your life everyday.
Define 'fun'.
Must fun be the fun you think it is?
Heh.
A lot of theory, little practical in this forum still.
Bye!
Your "fun" is not "my" fun, "my" fun is not your "fun", so why should you bother whether i have fun or not?
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Maybe i have find it "fun" listening to Dharma talks and doing chanting? You may find it boring, but i find it fun and enhancive to my progress in the Path to Nirvana? If you don't find it fun you have the freedom not to join but why should we even bother about what you think?
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Originally posted by yamizi:
I just received a letter written by a fellow buddhist with photograph-evidence how hypocrite PKS is - in one manner promoting buddhism and in another manner encouraging the burning of joss papers! Haha.
And why should it bother you what PKS does or does not do? Dun forget, many people who attend PKS are, unfortunately, still "joss-stick buddhists" who have no knowledge of the Dharma. Many temples have been trying for years to educate devotees not to burn joss papers, posters have been put up many times, but the elderly and those accustomed to burning joss paper for their dead relatives still burn. I don't think it's the temple's fault (and it doesn't happen only at PKS), and we cannot blame them because they cannot ban it outright; even if they do, people will still burn somewhere, somehow! So now we have to educate the younger ones on more meaningful ways to remember their loved ones.
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Originally posted by sanath:
And why should it bother you what PKS does or does not do? Dun forget, many people who attend PKS are, unfortunately, still "joss-stick buddhists" who have no knowledge of the Dharma. Many temples have been trying for years to educate devotees not to burn joss papers, posters have been put up many times, but the elderly and those accustomed to burning joss paper for their dead relatives still burn. I don't think it's the temple's fault (and it doesn't happen only at PKS), and we cannot blame them because they cannot ban it outright; even if they do, people will still burn somewhere, somehow! So now we have to educate the younger ones on more meaningful ways to remember their loved ones.
Since buddhist temple already doing non buddhist thing, might as well take a bigger leap, go and see what are churches doing!
Of course temple not at fault. To my understanding, buddhists are fast to push away all the blame by using society, custom as excuses.
Heh.
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Originally posted by sanath:
Maybe i have find it "fun" listening to Dharma talks and doing chanting? You may find it boring, but i find it fun and enhancive to my progress in the Path to Nirvana? If you don't find it fun you have the freedom not to join but why should we even bother about what you think?
Then don't read my posts lor, so easy.
A buddhist priest that sound so angry, don't know what kind of buddhist sect sia.
It's really a living evidence of dhamma-degeneration age.
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Originally posted by sanath:
Your "fun" is not "my" fun, "my" fun is not your "fun", so why should you bother whether i have fun or not?
I'm not even talking to you.
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Wow Maggie.meepok, I am very impressed. For a Christian, you are very open-minded and tolerant... Your metaphysical/ religious outlook is actually not entirely in line with that of my understanding of Christianity. I am sure many Christians will argue that you are not one of them. You certainly do not fit into the profile of a Christian... I can only wish that there will be more of people like you in the Christian community.
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I wonder how come nowadays people like to think of spiritual places as fun place
once there was an old topic where this charismatic church chap describe catholic mass as boring
i would have thought temples and churches fulfill spiritual needs rather than emotional needs
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Originally posted by yamizi:
I just received a letter written by a fellow buddhist with photograph-evidence how hypocrite PKS is - in one manner promoting buddhism and in another manner encouraging the burning of joss papers! Haha.
Just want to clarify something... We are Buddhist, and as Buddhist, there is no religious requirement to burn joss papers/ hell notes etc.At the same time, we are also Chinese, and burning joss papers is a traditional Chinese belief/ culture to honour our ancestors.
PKS is a Chinese Buddhist temple. As long as it is clear that the joss paper burning etc is merely a ritual to honour our ancestors, it is not wrong for PKS to embrace these traditional Chinese practices.
In fact, one of the things that I feel proud about being a Buddhist is that I can be a Buddhist and a Chinese at the same time. As long as I am mindful of the Buddha-dharma, there is no prohibition for me to carry joss sticks, prostrate before my deceased ancestors, burn joss papers, entering Taoist temples, comsuming food 'offered' to ancestors/ deities etc. etc.
My being a Buddhist does not affect my "Chinese-ness" so to speak... :)
Likewise, a caucasion Buddhist is not prohibited from celebrating Easter, Christmas etc.
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Originally posted by sanath:
Hi Maggie_meepok,
whilst i agree that in modern times Catholics tend to be more tolerant than their Protestant counterparts, it was not always so. In fact, it was only after Vatican II (1965) that the Catholic Church became more tolerant and open to other faiths, including to Protestants and Jews. There are those who still believe that it is only through the "Holy Catholic Church" that salvation is assured. My mum who is Catholic objected quite strongly when i wanted to convert to Buddhism 15 years ago, likewise, so did some of my devout Protestant relatives (mostly Anglicans, because my great-grandfather was an Anglican missionary from China). It was only after my mum's parish priest (a french! if local maybe not...) convinced her that it would be better for me to convert was i given the "green light". And remember, the Catholic Church did some of the worst persecutions against non-catholics (Protestants and Jews) in Europe and Asia.
Hi Sanath,
Christianity's Violent History
I agree with you that the Catholic church was not always tolerant of other faiths. The Catholic church claims itself as "original" church tracing its lineage to the Apostles. The word Catholic simply means "universal" in Greek and is a term used by early Christians to denote their desire to spread the faith to all men, and by later Christians to distinguish their religion from heretics and divergent views.
The Catholic church certainly has its fair share of violent history. Christianity started out as a small band of converts persecuted by the Jews just after Jesus' death. Overtime, it gained more believers especially women - as Jesus and the early Christians respected women. Eventually women from even the upper classes accepted Christianity and this had a very powerful effect on their children's choice of religion (these are future leaders in society).
Christianity, from being a religion of the poor and the outcasts in society became a religion for the rich and ruling classes in Europe. The church also became very, very rich - it fact it was one of the largest landowners Europe as many people bequeathed their land and belongings to the church when they die.
That's when religion and politics began to sleep in the same unholy bed. For a thousand years after that there were horrible abuses and violence because the church was so powerful and so aggressive in defending its power. There were Crusades in the middle ages when Christians started 3 major wars to claim Jerusalem which was taken over by the Muslims. Christians soldiers not only killed Muslims soldiers but along the way they also plundered villages, raped and murdered civilians including other Christians like the Coptic Christians (dark skinned Christians in Egypt).
Then there also other cases like the Spanish Inquisitions, and so many other abuses I can talk until tomorrow
The reason I raise these violent past of Christianity is not because I want non-Christians to have a "bad impression" of Christianity. I want Christians who read this to look at their own religious history in a brutally honest way as these are well-known, documented, historical facts. I want Christians to think critically and not be swayed just by their churches or charismatic religious leaders blindly. The church and religious leaders have been wrong before and there are not infallible (even though the Catholics still have a law that says the Pope is infallable ie can do no wrong, but alas, that is another political story reserved for another day haha).
Because if Christians do not exercise their own judgement and their own conscience, they would have failed Jesus whom they claim to love. Jesus' message is one of love, compassion and inclusivity, not of hate, intolerance and exclusivity.
There should be no fear in looking at reality because Jesus has said :"The truth shall set you free".
*sanath - you converted from being Catholic to Buddhist. Its very interesting as I have not met many people like this. Possible to share with me your story? You can pm me if you like.
**For others interested in reading about Christian history, I highly recommend "A History of Christianity" written by Paul Johnson, a Oxford historian and published by Penguin. He's a Christian by the way.
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Originally posted by Beyond Religion:
Wow Maggie.meepok, I am very impressed. For a Christian, you are very open-minded and tolerant... Your metaphysical/ religious outlook is actually not entirely in line with that of my understanding of Christianity. I am sure many Christians will argue that you are not one of them. You certainly do not fit into the profile of a Christian... I can only wish that there will be more of people like you in the Christian community.
Haha, hi Beyond Religion,
I was not always liked that. I was a guai-guai Christian for many years, and try to go "by the book". It was a long journey to slowly move from there to here as it is not easy to be at odds with your own religious community yet fearful of voicing out as the whole establishment may come down at you. There were times I feel very alone. But I realise that if I do not listen to my conscience and common sense, I may end up at Woodbridge one day
You are right I do not fit into the normal defination of Christian. At first I was trying to find another defination for myself - maybe I should convert to be a Catholic, to the liberal Unity Church (in USA!) or call myself a Buddhist Christian (what the h*ll is that?). But then again, these are more labels.
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Originally posted by yamizi:
I'm sad that you're not enjoying your life everyday.
Define 'fun'.
Must fun be the fun you think it is?
Heh.
A lot of theory, little practical in this forum still.
Bye!
So how do you define fun?
I thought fun means something amusing. I don't think cancer is fun or amusing.
But if it is joy irregardless and unconditioned by circumstances then that is due to practice and wisdom.
Many people meditate and chant, including me. I can tell you that the deeper you enter into meditation, the more joyful it becomes... sometimes the joy exceeds all ordinary joy you have ever experienced in worldly life -- even sex. Though meditation may appear to some to be the most boring activity on earth. It is joy not derived from sensual stimulation but by mere clarity and absorption. The clearer you become, the more blissful it is.
I can experience this in daily activities as well. Though I do not claim to be able to maintain this even if I am in pain (at least not yet but I think it is possible) but the point is, joy in practice is not dependent on amusement of senses.
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Originally posted by yamizi:
Then don't read my posts lor, so easy.
A buddhist priest that sound so angry, don't know what kind of buddhist sect sia.
It's really a living evidence of dhamma-degeneration age.
It's really Dharma-degenrating Age when people like YOU don't even know basic courteousy, either towards fellow Buddhists or temples (if you can be called a "Buddhist" in the 1st place)! It's not the 1st time you are putting up posts like these. A Buddhist priest doesn't neccessarily have to be mild and docile all the time, since you like to continue putting up flaming posts and making others here disturbed or distracted by it, then i think i have the duty to correct those posts. You dont like it, you also dont have to read it.
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Originally posted by Maggie.meepok:
*sanath - you converted from being Catholic to Buddhist. Its very interesting as I have not met many people like this. Possible to share with me your story? You can pm me if you like.
It's a very very very longgggg story. Just to boil down to a few words, it's "karmic conditions å› ç¸�".
Actually, i was a "protestant-catholic", baptised anglican, brought up semi-catholic, having being brought up on both sides. If i were to talk about why i converted i can talk until the cows come home...
Gassho
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Originally posted by laurence82:
I wonder how come nowadays people like to think of spiritual places as fun place
once there was an old topic where this charismatic church chap describe catholic mass as boring
i would have thought temples and churches fulfill spiritual needs rather than emotional needs
Hi,
well the temples and churches have to sort of fulfill both spiritual and emotional needs, although for the latter it might not always be "fun", depending on the individual.
Let's look at it this way. Some peope like to jump up n down, clap hands etc, so for them those charismatic/pentacotalist churches are "fun" but "scary" to others. Some prefer quiet devotional practices, so buddhist/catholic meditation is "fun" to them, yet "boring" to others. Some prefer chanting/singing to meditation (my case!), so old style christian services or buddhist chanting services are "fun", yet "boring" to others. But they get both their spiritual and emotional needs fulfilled there. Of course, having like-minded friends there to be with you also helps with in fulfilling the spiritual and emotional needs as well.
Just a personal take.
Gassho
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Originally posted by sanath:
Hi,
well the temples and churches have to sort of fulfill both spiritual and emotional needs, although for the latter it might not always be "fun", depending on the individual.
Let's look at it this way. Some peope like to jump up n down, clap hands etc, so for them those charismatic/pentacotalist churches are "fun" but "scary" to others. Some prefer quiet devotional practices, so buddhist/catholic meditation is "fun" to them, yet "boring" to others. Some prefer chanting/singing to meditation (my case!), so old style christian services or buddhist chanting services are "fun", yet "boring" to others. But they get both their spiritual and emotional needs fulfilled there. Of course, having like-minded friends there to be with you also helps with in fulfilling the spiritual and emotional needs as well.
Just a personal take.
Gassho
I agree much with you about the jumping thingy. Im not amused by that at all.
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Myself too! I got quite "freaked out" when i literally walked into one that was being held at St Andrew's Cathedral. So never ever ask me to go to those types of services, i'm 'old-fashioned', gimme good-old hymns and chanting!
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Originally posted by Beyond Religion:
Just want to clarify something... We are Buddhist, and as Buddhist, there is no religious requirement to burn joss papers/ hell notes etc.At the same time, we are also Chinese, and burning joss papers is a traditional Chinese belief/ culture to honour our ancestors.
PKS is a Chinese Buddhist temple. As long as it is clear that the joss paper burning etc is merely a ritual to honour our ancestors, it is not wrong for PKS to embrace these traditional Chinese practices.
In fact, one of the things that I feel proud about being a Buddhist is that I can be a Buddhist and a Chinese at the same time. As long as I am mindful of the Buddha-dharma, there is no prohibition for me to carry joss sticks, prostrate before my deceased ancestors, burn joss papers, entering Taoist temples, comsuming food 'offered' to ancestors/ deities etc. etc.
My being a Buddhist does not affect my "Chinese-ness" so to speak... :)
Likewise, a caucasion Buddhist is not prohibited from celebrating Easter, Christmas etc.
Fully agree!
That's why I have been encourage people to go to church for their eye-opener mah!
Not as if asking them to be buddhist and christian at the same time.
To me, PKS likes to burn joss paper or not is not my problem. It's only to highlight some of the other impressions that other buddhists may have.
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Originally posted by sanath:
It's really Dharma-degenrating Age when people like YOU don't even know basic courteousy, either towards fellow Buddhists or temples (if you can be called a "Buddhist" in the 1st place)! It's not the 1st time you are putting up posts like these. A Buddhist priest doesn't neccessarily have to be mild and docile all the time, since you like to continue putting up flaming posts and making others here disturbed or distracted by it, then i think i have the duty to correct those posts. You dont like it, you also dont have to read it.
Ya, I don't like your post, this is the last entry I'm replying to you.
If you don't like my post, don't bother to reply then =) But I bet you would because you have no cultivation at all and to think you're a priest!
Standard drop like nobody's business already!
Whether I am a buddhist or not, it's not up to you to define.
But of course you can say what you like lah, you priest mah, think you're very big. Haha.