How to politely decline invitations to church?
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Serious dating or marriage relationships among christians and non-christians is also another one of my concerns. for such issues are real, happening right in front of us; some are friends, some are relatives, and some, even fellow siblings or parents!Originally posted by cycle:No. Not in my parents's case ,that is. I don't think there is such a fix rule on marriages between christain n non-believer, but of cos usually one wld tends to follow one's spouse sooner or later. Especially, fr my observations, if the wife is a christain then most probably the hubby will convert to christainity later on.
Maybe out of love for the wife n chrildren as well , cos usually the wife will baptise the kids too.
And many christains may believe that they can succeed in converting their non-christain spoues, so it's not uncommon to see such marriages nowadays too. I hv a relative whose hubby only becomes a christain recently after a marriage of 20 yrs.
For my case, i think my late ah gong was a wise and fair person as he was the one who stop the rest fr baptising me as a child then. He thought that it wld be better for me to choose what i want when I grow up. Steady.
And another factor may be due to my paternal family members r the so-called "mild Christains" which belongs to the old-guard. We r the " lao hokkien christains"- christainity has become like a family tradition n not so aggressive as some of todays young where most r converted to christainity out of fun, peer pressure, vanity, BG relationship,etc.
Oh, one more thing, if u choose to marry into a christain family, then of cos there r pressure to convert as u cannot escape fr ur new family members forever; but I guess when one decided to marry a christain, more or less he/she is not repulsive towards the religion liao. So, free choice. Don't blame anyone. -
Your last paragraph on religion and its passed down rules is very true...my sentiments exactly!Originally posted by yamizi:Interesting case to share. =)
Anyway I also have observed that people who are born to that religion are not as zealous as those who are converted.
My paternal male cousin wasn't that lucky. He got ROM many years back. He's a buddhist (not sure is it josssticks or with understanding, cos never had a good chat with him on religion before) and he's then gf is a christian. So after ROM when they are about to do their custom marriage, she insisted that he convert or she will anull the marriage, so he converted. My grandma was very sad as he is the eldest grandson (for those who really know chinese custom would know zhang sun di zi). And they are very (I don't know is strict the correct word) strict christian, they don't eat the fruits that my grandma used to offer on the shrine at her house or those that offer during my grandpa's death anniversary.
Back then I was very young and it did give me negative impression on christianity. But like what cycle had said, I think there is no hard and fast rule that a conversion is a must for a non-christian to marry a christian. Probably it later becomes a man-made rule that got passed down for so long that it becomes a tradition.
Religions have been existing for so long that whether the rules are laid by the scriptures or made by men, these are often confused. -
Actually this is also the same when non-muslim marries another muslim. Confirm must convert one.Originally posted by Beyond Religion:What you described is emotional blackmail. Pure and simple... It is really a very despicable act. -
Hmm.. that was not what I meant. But sorry for phrasing it that way.Originally posted by yamizi:So that is not what you have counter, you just simply reproduce from another source.
What you have counter would be what you have understand from these readings and having written down your sentiments, not copy and paste.
Don't take people's credit as your own. -
what i do not like about other religions( I been to church groups and soka groups) is that i felt pressurized to join. The people were over friendly it made me uncomfortable. i felt obliged to join, instead out of my free will. they would start praying, chanting, watched videos on how other people 'gained' from joining. Unlike in buddhism, i am free to explore on my own. and i strictly believe in karma.
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Soka also believes in karma. Soka will be more difficult to differentiate from buddhism as compare to christianity.Originally posted by jacqn:what i do not like about other religions( I been to church groups and soka groups) is that i felt pressurized to join. The people were over friendly it made me uncomfortable. i felt obliged to join, instead out of my free will. they would start praying, chanting, watched videos on how other people 'gained' from joining. Unlike in buddhism, i am free to explore on my own. and i strictly believe in karma.
In general, soka follows all the basic tenents of buddhism. Just that when come to their service, they recite the sacred title and focus on the gohonzon (lit. sacred object of worship).
But I do understand how the pressure was like. Some churches are not that pressurizing though. -
All religions (one way or another) seek to enlarge their 'follow-sheep' which they mildy put it as fellowship!Originally posted by jacqn:what i do not like about other religions( I been to church groups and soka groups) is that i felt pressurized to join. The people were over friendly it made me uncomfortable. i felt obliged to join, instead out of my free will. they would start praying, chanting, watched videos on how other people 'gained' from joining. Unlike in buddhism, i am free to explore on my own. and i strictly believe in karma.
So, when you are with friends, classmates, colleagues, comrades, you are bound to get an 'invitation' to join their religion. In present time and in a multi-religious society, the need to proselyte is more apparent than in a mono-religious society. After all, if everyone in the society is of the same religion, what is there to proselyte or convert?
Be mindful that this 'desire' to be of the same faith, belief, etc. is very strong and alive - that's why you have subtle conversion like - if you love me, be a Christian, etc. If you want to marry me, convert to my faith. If you want to be saved and go to heaven, convert to my faith. At birth, baptism or other similar ceremonies by other religion!
If it can't be done subtlely, then by force - that is where holy wars - jihads and crusades plus forced conversion when colonisation was rampant. Look at Asia and South East Asia - if it was not due to Portuguese colonisation, do you have churches in Malacca and Macao! See what happen to Macao today when you have money colonisation from Sands, MGM, etc. - you get casinoes!!!!! -
Originally posted by TheGoodEarth:
That's why I always say religion is the best business around! The basic idea is just to sell 'faith'! Assurance is redundant here cos no one can see what happens after death.
All religions (one way or another) seek to enlarge their [b]'follow-sheep' which they mildy put it as fellowship!
So, when you are with friends, classmates, colleagues, comrades, you are bound to get an 'invitation' to join their religion. In present time and in a multi-religious society, the need to proselyte is more apparent than in a mono-religious society. After all, if everyone in the society is of the same religion, what is there to proselyte or convert?
Be mindful that this 'desire' to be of the same faith, belief, etc. is very strong and alive - that's why you have subtle conversion like - if you love me, be a Christian, etc. If you want to marry me, convert to my faith. If you want to be saved and go to heaven, convert to my faith. At birth, baptism or other similar ceremonies by other religion!
If it can't be done subtlely, then by force - that is where holy wars - jihads and crusades plus forced conversion when colonisation was rampant. Look at Asia and South East Asia - if it was not due to Portuguese colonisation, do you have churches in Malacca and Macao! See what happen to Macao today when you have money colonisation from Sands, MGM, etc. - you get casinoes!!!!![/b]
Haha -
Originally posted by TheGoodEarth:
Can't fault your analysis.... but again the phenomena you described applies more to the mono-theistic religions.
All religions (one way or another) seek to enlarge their [b]'follow-sheep' which they mildy put it as fellowship!
So, when you are with friends, classmates, colleagues, comrades, you are bound to get an 'invitation' to join their religion. In present time and in a multi-religious society, the need to proselyte is more apparent than in a mono-religious society. After all, if everyone in the society is of the same religion, what is there to proselyte or convert?
Be mindful that this 'desire' to be of the same faith, belief, etc. is very strong and alive - that's why you have subtle conversion like - if you love me, be a Christian, etc. If you want to marry me, convert to my faith. If you want to be saved and go to heaven, convert to my faith. At birth, baptism or other similar ceremonies by other religion!
If it can't be done subtlely, then by force - that is where holy wars - jihads and crusades plus forced conversion when colonisation was rampant. Look at Asia and South East Asia - if it was not due to Portuguese colonisation, do you have churches in Malacca and Macao! See what happen to Macao today when you have money colonisation from Sands, MGM, etc. - you get casinoes!!!!![/b] -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Good reading materials. Very useful!
Hmm... this is the first time I'm going to counter Christian claims directly (other than the one on creationism) for.. I dunno how long
At least on the public forum.
Excerpts taken from http://www.budsas.org/ebud/beyond/beyond02.htm, http://www.budsas.org/ebud/beyond/beyond01.htm (Beyond Belief)
[b]Miracles
Christians claim that miracles are sometimes performed in God's name and that the fact that this happens proves that God exists. This is an appealing argument until it is looked at a little more closely.
While Christians are quick to claim that because of their prayers the blind could see, the deaf could hear and crooked limbs were straightened, they are very slow in producing evidence to back up their claims. In fact, some Christians are so anxious to prove that miracles have occurred at their prayer meetings that the truth often gets lost in a flood of wild claims, extravagant boasts, and sometimes even conscious lies.
It is true that things which are unusual and difficult to explain do sometimes happen during religious events - but not just for Christians. Hindus, Muslims, Taoists, etc. all claim that their God or gods sometimes perform miracles. Christianity certainly does not have a monopoly on miracles. So, if miracles performed in God's name prove the existence of the Christian God, then miracles performed in the name of numerous other gods must likewise prove that they too exist.
Christians may try to overcome this fact by claiming that, when miracles occur in other religions, they are done through the power of the Devil. Perhaps the best way to counter this claim is to quote the Bible. When Jesus healed the sick, his enemies accused him of doing this through the power of the Devil. He answered that healing the sick results in good and if the Devil went around doing good he would destroy himself (Mk 3:22-26). Therefore the same could be said for the miracles performed by Hindus, Jews or Sikhs. If these miracles result in good, how can they be the work of the Devil?[/b] -
Quite true too.Originally posted by Beyond Religion:What you described is emotional blackmail. Pure and simple... It is really a very despicable act.
I've heard so many times parents being emotionally hurt due to such marriages as it's like suddendly their sons r not their sons anymore( they r God's chridren now). They suddendly don't eat the food the parents prepared during festive seasons meant for accesstors' offerings etc, which these kids hv been eating all their lives until they married a christain( to be fair, some still eat lah); some even threaten the parents by not attending their funerals in the future if they don't convert as well ( my cousin did exactly that to my aunt). Quite chaotic, man.
I also used to feel that christains r out to wreck the traditional family values n coehision. Now I think they only hold 50% responsibility ( due to their inflexibity n un-compassionate feelings towards others tradition n beliefs), the other 50 %, actually lies on the other partner.
Why? As I mentioned earlier, if one decided to marry a Christain( unless it was a planned secrecy), one actually deep in the heart has accepted Christainity liao. Its' a matter of time. No offence, but I feel that two persons must hv the same level of "wisdom" to be able to fall in love enough to get married. They see eye to eye on many issues, same frequency.
So I always tell the parents not to blame your daughter-in-laws lah. Your sons choose their wives themselves with their eyes wide open. Its their own choice, so let it be. I find some Buddhist parents r quite cool, they just continue their practise even harder n was as solid as a rock, nobody, not even their beloved chrildren, can shake them. -
Originally posted by airgrinder:Thank you for the invitation but I'm a Buddist. I'm sure you respect others religion too. I do not wish to hurt our friendship etc so I hope you wun force me into it. I'm sure your church dun avocate forcing people too right? Rest assured if I'm interested in future, I'll definately look for u.
Hi all,Originally posted by jojobeach:Spnw07,
If you want to find out about Christianity, you can always read a bible, yourself.
There is no need for you to ask your cousin about it.
Why start a spark when you don't need fire ?
To politely reject an invitation. It is as easy as saying no thanks to a waiter wanting to fill your drinking glass.
When invitation becomes a annoyance, your reply should be as honest and direct as possible.
" Thank you for inviting me, I would very much prefer that you respect my religion , the way I respect yours."
Personally I think this response would be the most appropriate.
edit; I think both responses above are suitable -
Hi Spnw, in all fairness, your opening post did ask for a buddhist view. Which is why I've refrained from commenting for a while. But even then, I think many of us will try to stay away to prevent ruffling any feathers especially with a careless word or too this being a buddhist thread/forum and all.Originally posted by Spnw07:Hey, new creation, I was hoping also for more christians like you to express their views on my topic. Others are important, but hearing christians like you speak out makes me feel encouraged that not all are over-zealous to the extent of ignoring the sensitivities and choices of others.
I'm so glad that you have views that are balanced and respectful of others in point 4. I'm also thankful that you are willing to give an example of how to politely decline a fellow member of your faith.
I do agree with you about your views about the Korean missionaries' abduction case. Sorry, but I do feel a bit uncomfortable after not being able to understand why they were unable to consider long term and wide-ranging implications of their actions for their country and the rest of the world.
I will try to use your example and parts of advice from all here which I can understand and use , and if I'm stuck again after my cousin counter-attacks me (i lack the gift of real time response), please don't ignore me if I pm you. paiseh. haha. -
i know some christians who became christians to know a gal or simply their frenz joined so they join .
sheep maternity nt very gd .
like china , ppl started dabbling in stocks , the number of stock market particiapants grew from day to day .
maybe if u r nt so lucky , u stepped on the landmine as soon as u enter the market .
as for marriage problems , i heard of a yi kuan tao believer falling for a christian gal .
ended up leaving yi kuan tao for christianality .
he was the only guy i knew who have a vegetarian meal in tekong .
but he remained a vegetarian after converting to christianality .
heard from my frenz in yi kuan tao .
marrying christians may have problems if u r nt a christian .
must c , nt all christian r like that .
only some . -
An interesting counter-view to Christianity's assertion that miracles that occur in other religions are the work of the Devil. Most importantly, it is quoted from the Bible itself.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
It is true that things which are unusual and difficult to explain do sometimes happen during religious events - but not just for Christians. Hindus, Muslims, Taoists, etc. all claim that their God or gods sometimes perform miracles. Christianity certainly does not have a monopoly on miracles. So, if miracles performed in God's name prove the existence of the Christian God, then miracles performed in the name of numerous other gods must likewise prove that they too exist.
Christians may try to overcome this fact by claiming that, when miracles occur in other religions, they are done through the power of the Devil. Perhaps the best way to counter this claim is to quote the Bible.When Jesus healed the sick, his enemies accused him of doing this through the power of the Devil. He answered that healing the sick results in good and if the Devil went around doing good he would destroy himself (Mk 3:22-26). Therefore the same could be said for the miracles performed by Hindus, Jews or Sikhs. If these miracles result in good, how can they be the work of the Devil? -
Originally posted by cycle:
Can agree with your point of view about one's eyes being wide open when choosing a spouse who believes in another religion.
Why? As I mentioned earlier, if one decided to marry a Christain( unless it was a planned secrecy), one actually deep in the heart has accepted Christainity liao. Its' a matter of time. No offence, but I feel that two persons must hv the same level of "wisdom" to be able to fall in love enough to get married. They see eye to eye on many issues, same frequency.
So I always tell the parents not to blame your daughter-in-laws lah. Your sons choose their wives themselves with their eyes wide open. Its their own choice, so let it be. I find some Buddhist parents r quite cool, they just continue their practise even harder n was as solid as a rock, nobody, not even their beloved chrildren, can shake them.
I like the last statement which mentioned that some Buddhist parents continue to practise their faith even more diligently, and remained undisturbed, even when their children have all converted to Christianity and are trying to influence them through many ways.
I would like to use this example to encourage all Buddhist parents and parents to be. Don't give up just yet, as long you believe in the Law of Cause and Effect explained by the Buddha, the chances of you converting to another monotheistic religion will not be so high. -
Yes, as I have explained earlier in one of my replies to a comment here, I too was afraid of ruffling feathers if I had posted this topic in a Christian forum.Originally posted by SumOne:Hi Spnw, in all fairness, your opening post did ask for a buddhist view. Which is why I've refrained from commenting for a while. But even then, I think many of us will try to stay away to prevent ruffling any feathers especially with a careless word or too this being a buddhist thread/forum and all.
Afraid as I was and still am, I really don't mind any Christian coming down to share their views and experiences in this thread.
Mutual respect (which means a moderate and balanced point of view) is always valued and appreciated. Not fear of ruffling feathers, which would merely contribute to religious segregation and isolation. Surely that isn't healthy for any country or the world at large, don't you think? -
I have tried the above two responses by jojo and airgrinder, but there was no stopping them from carrying on with their rhetorical and passionate persuasion.Originally posted by SumOne:Hi all,
Personally I think this response would be the most appropriate.
edit; I think both responses above are suitable -
Speak your mind is better than being overly concern about ruffling feathers. The beauty of being in a forum like this is that you can do away with pretention and niceties. Unlike face-to-face conversation, you know you don't have to face a black face when you tell it to the face of a person. So please, I want you to be brutally frank! You don't need to say anything to please anyone - I don't.Originally posted by Spnw07:Yes, as I have explained earlier in one of my replies to a comment here, I too was afraid of ruffling feathers if I had posted this topic in a Christian forum.
Afraid as I was and still am, I really don't mind any Christian coming down to share their views and experiences in this thread.
Mutual respect (which means a moderate and balanced point of view) is always valued and appreciated. Not fear of ruffling feathers, which would merely contribute to religious segregation and isolation. Surely that isn't healthy for any country or the world at large, don't you think? -
sorry for saying this, but in my opinion, people join christianity largely due to fear. becos they fear going to hell if they are not . they believe by joining and saying praying will save them and go to heaven the moment they join. my friend always tried to tell me these in the past. however this is the very reason i block myself from believing. Cos i believe every thing happens for a reason. i find it hard to convince myself i can go heaven the minute i go into christianity.
that is what i always think of christianity. Please correct if i am wrong.. -
not exactly.Originally posted by jacqn:sorry for saying this, but in my opinion, people join christianity largely due to fear. becos they fear going to hell if they are not . they believe by joining and saying praying will save them and go to heaven the moment they join. my friend always tried to tell me these in the past. however this is the very reason i block myself from believing. Cos i believe every thing happens for a reason. i find it hard to convince myself i can go heaven the minute i go into christianity.
that is what i always think of christianity. Please correct if i am wrong..
from wad i see, it is mainly due to agressive evangelicalism (is it spelled this way?) in our society that has caused many pple to convert to christianity or wad so ever. some join due to fren pressure, and i noe some quarrelled with their parents abt it even, and life has been hell for dem since dey converted. -
Tell them you believe in The Da Vinci Code
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agreed.Originally posted by cycle:Quite true too.
I've heard so many times parents being emotionally hurt due to such marriages as it's like suddendly their sons r not their sons anymore( they r God's chridren now). They suddendly don't eat the food the parents prepared during festive seasons meant for accesstors' offerings etc, which these kids hv been eating all their lives until they married a christain( to be fair, some still eat lah); some even threaten the parents by not attending their funerals in the future if they don't convert as well ( my cousin did exactly that to my aunt). Quite chaotic, man.
I also used to feel that christains r out to wreck the traditional family values n coehision. Now I think they only hold 50% responsibility ( due to their inflexibity n un-compassionate feelings towards others tradition n beliefs), the other 50 %, actually lies on the other partner.
Why? As I mentioned earlier, if one decided to marry a Christain( unless it was a planned secrecy), one actually deep in the heart has accepted Christainity liao. Its' a matter of time. No offence, but I feel that two persons must hv the same level of "wisdom" to be able to fall in love enough to get married. They see eye to eye on many issues, same frequency.
So I always tell the parents not to blame your daughter-in-laws lah. Your sons choose their wives themselves with their eyes wide open. Its their own choice, so let it be. I find some Buddhist parents r quite cool, they just continue their practise even harder n was as solid as a rock, nobody, not even their beloved chrildren, can shake them.
and it is bad to waste food seriously.
i got frenz who are christians and sometimes back, when we atteneded a fren'z mum funeral, dey still hold joss sticks and pray. this is wad i call respect -
A bit off-topic, but most Christians do not want to hold joss-sticks at all. My younger sibling is a Christian, and she makes sure that no one in the family can persuade her to hold a joss-stick.
In a way, she is a strict Christian. However, she doesn't mind eating food that has been offered to ancestors during the Ching Ming period.
Oh well, not for me to say any way. -
wad i feel is dat, instill respect in the youngs. sure, they can have the freedom to believe and follow whatever religion dey want, but towards the family, which the rest of his or her family may have another belief towards another religion, he or her MUST respect the family's religion and not creating disharmony instead.