The nature of the separate self, duality
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Please state in a sentence or a paragraph (fill in this blank (to know what is required in the answer, see quote above):Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:In order to answer the question, you need to have an understanding of what [# Practice in Accordance with the Dhamma] is trying to do.
Like in the exercise example, exercising works the muscles.
[# Practice in Accordance with the Dhamma] is doing what? What is it trying to do? How does that lead to an intuitive perception of Emptiness?
[# Practice in Accordance with the Dhamma] is .................................. and that will help you see /have an intuitive perception of emptiness. -
Practice in accordance in Dharma is Awareness/Awakeness/Mindfulness.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:Please state in a sentence or a paragraph (fill in this blank (to know what is required in the answer, see quote above):
[# Practice in Accordance with the Dhamma] is .................................. and that will help you see /have an intuitive perception of emptiness.
comments: In accordance to Mindfulness in Plain English,
(a) Mindfulness reminds you of what you are supposed to be doing .
(b) Mindfulness sees things as they really are.
(c) Mindfulness sees the true nature of all phenomena. -
That's pretty good and least we are getting somewhere... so how does mindfulness do all that and why would it lead to an intuitive perception of emptiness?
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Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:So to you the way to see is to see (through meditation).... and what, suddenly you will SEE? You will have an intuitive perception?
Maybe the question is really too hard for you to understand. I just hope that you do not get too far detached from real life, from this reality because this reality is reality and perception of emptiness is not for escaping from reality, from this life, but an enhancement.
Samsara and Nirvana, not one, not two.
Many people can say not two. But can one really experience what it is to 'just sit'? What is true zazen (just sitting)?Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:Going to work and nirvana, not one, not two
Family life and nirvana, not one, not two
Religious life and nirvana, not one, not two
and so on...
A person trains a zendo for hours and for years... can we understand the essence of just sitting, or does a pragmatic person knows what is going on? Or is he/she equally blinded by his/her understanding.
Which means.. a person can be totally involved in living, in activities and humanism, be very pragmatic, and yet does he/she really know what is going on during sitting?
If someone is born and become a monk or a lama at a young age, a yogi, and hides his life in a cave meditating.. and eventually pass away. Nobody knew him. Does that mean his life is wasted?
Pragmatic people will think that such a person is irrational and stupid. OR, is he actually passing judgement on something that he doesn't know?
Learn to sit and yet be involved in daily activities, so that one will not be blinded.. otherwise 'not-two' is just a theory because he can't even sit.
As my Master said when someone asked him about the importance of practising in daily lives (dong zhong xiu), he answered that he never 'qiang diao' (emphasize) dong zhong xiu, but rather he says we CAN dong zhong xiu, and we SHOULD dong zhong xiu. But it does not mean we can do away with sitting as a result, or that one should emphasize dong zhong xiu in contrast to jing zhong xiu. Ultimately the point is like you said, Nirvana and Samsara is not two. In this case, it is Movement and Stillness is not two, one thusness -- Dong Jing Yi Ru. But one should not emphasize one over the other. Cannot skew towards one side.
My taiwanese teacher having more time on his own now that he moved to his dharma center, spends up to 6 hours everyday meditating. My local dharma teacher now spends at least 1~2 hours everyday sitting too, she sits in afternoon nowadays in contrast to years ago as stated in her article.
Not saying that everyone must follow, it is not possible for a beginner to sit for so long. Best to begin with 30 minutes, if cannot, try 15 minutes. But some people just hate meditation, thats fine, you can practice without sitting first. But as you progress deeper into your practice you will have to pick up the practice. Even if one had an intuitive glimpse, one has to continue sitting to deepen one's experience and realization.
Time is running short... will post further on this later. -
p.s the monk is just an example... what about an ant? a fish? a tree? does an ant knows that we exist and in what form?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Many people can say not two. But can one really experience what it is to 'just sit'? What is true zazen (just sitting)?
A person trains a zendo for hours and for years... can we understand the essence of just sitting, or does a pragmatic person knows what is going on? Or is he/she equally blinded by his/her understanding.
Which means.. a person can be totally involved in living, in activities and humanism, be very pragmatic, and yet does he/she really know what is going on during sitting?
If someone is born and become a monk or a lama at a young age, a yogi, and hides his life in a cave meditating.. and eventually pass away. Nobody knew him. Does that mean his life is wasted?
Pragmatic people will think that such a person is irrational and stupid. OR, is he actually passing judgement on something that he doesn't know?
Learn to sit and yet be involved in daily activities, so that one will not be blinded.. otherwise 'not-two' is just a theory because he can't even sit.
As my Master said when someone asked him about the importance of practising in daily lives (dong zhong xiu), he answered that he never 'qiang diao' (emphasize) dong zhong xiu, but rather he says we CAN dong zhong xiu, and we SHOULD dong zhong xiu. But it does not mean we can do away with sitting as a result, or that one should emphasize dong zhong xiu in contrast to jing zhong xiu. Ultimately the point is like you said, Nirvana and Samsara is not two. In this case, it is Movement and Stillness is not two, one thusness -- Dong Jing Yi Ru. But one should not emphasize one over the other. Cannot skew towards one side.
My taiwanese teacher having more time on his own now that he moved to his dharma center, spends up to 6 hours everyday meditating. My local dharma teacher now spends at least 1~2 hours everyday sitting too, she sits in afternoon nowadays in contrast to years ago as stated in her article.
Not saying that everyone must follow, it is not possible for a beginner to sit for so long. Best to begin with 30 minutes, if cannot, try 15 minutes. But some people just hate meditation, thats fine, you can practice without sitting first. But as you progress deeper into your practice you will have to pick up the practice. Even if one had an intuitive glimpse, one has to continue sitting to deepen one's experience and realization.
Time is running short... will post further on this later.
gtg for now. -
You speak of experiencing emptiness from sitting down and doing nothing... is that the correct way to experience emptiness? Is that the preferred way? Is that Real, facing reality or escaping from reality?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Many people can say not two. But can one really experience what it is to 'just sit'? What is true zazen (just sitting)? -
... more important is to ask yourself, what mindfulness and awareness is mindful and aware of... and if you can figure that out, you have a better chance perceiving emptiness...
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Hi,
This is a very interesting topic.Perhaps this dharma talk could help to give a clearer picture which could help us to get a better understanding
Buddhism: Seeing Through the Illusion -
You see hor... you can listen to a hundred dharma talks and you can read a thousand sutras... but if you do not make it your own, it is pointless...
you have to be able to give a dharma talk and you have to write your own sutra, if you know what I mean....
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What?? Reality can only be found in the busyness and hectic life?Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:You speak of experiencing emptiness from sitting down and doing nothing... is that the correct way to experience emptiness? Is that the preferred way? Is that Real, facing reality or escaping from reality? You will tune out of reality/be escaping from reality when you go for a holiday or when you meditate?
You haven't answered me about the monk, the ant, the tree, and the fish. So I will put some hints... We are blinded by our senses when we invest in concepts.. For it is only in concepts that we differentiate states and realms... Are we different from a dog? Only in concepts, in essence just emptiness and conditioned arising (which is emptiness). All and whatever realm it is, it is formless, attributeless and emptiness.. arising and ceasing with luminous-emptiness as its nature. Without personality and without self. The 'reality', the realness, the observed, heard, the nature is emptiness. The 'reality' has no reality apart from the conditions of arising.
If we are blinded by pragmatism, we will not see that the essence of emptiness is also not just in daily engaging of activities. We must know and see both the importance.
Lastly, if you haven't notice, the Buddha and all the great enlightened practitioners (and I mean very high levels of enlightenment) all practice sitting.
Here's something that Thusness told me some days back,
Sit and when getting involved in daily activities, be total in action (non-action). It is of different dimension. Both are equally important. They serve different purposes, just like eyes and ears organs serving different purposes, but luminosity are present. A person getting very involved in activities may not be able to just sit and similarly a person that is only involved in sitting does not know how to deal with the world.
However once non-action is complete, one should be able to sit and also involve in worldly affairs. When a person has no contraction, he sits without discomfort for his mind is clear and stable.
BTW regarding ants, Longchen said something some months back:
...Ants are all busy with their daily activities, doing what they are programmed to do... oblivious to all the other things that goes on around them. A single rainfall, will kill them in an instance and their myopic obsession and plans will come to a meaningless grinding halt.
Likewise, all the activities of the world rolls on with blind ignorance and stupidity... seeking meaning in the meaningless.
This is the world for you and me. Doing things that will eventually come to a rude and grinding death. All the fame, glory of the world come to such eventual dissapointment and end. -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
hahahs when you cannot tune in to reality in the hectic and busyness of life and you can only tune in when you are on holiday and have escaped from the reality of "hectic and busyness of life"; don;t you think that the reality you perceive is "limited" and applicable to when you are "on holiday and have escaped from the reality".
What?? Reality can only be found in the busyness and hectic life? You will tune out of reality/be escaping from reality when you go for a holiday or when you meditate?[/b]
Sure, you have to be able to perceive emptiness, " when you are "on holiday and have escaped from the reality" but as long as you cannot perceive reality under all circumstances including "hectic and busyness of life", your perception of reality is immediately suspect.
When you cannot explain what practice is in fact doing, if you have no clear idea of what practice is in fact really doing or trying to do, to enable one to have an intuitive perception of emptiness. I doubt you can understand what you are trying to say. -
Did I say meditation over living? I am trying to convey the importance of both. You cannot skew to one side.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:hahahs when you cannot tune in to reality in the hectic and busyness of life and you can only tune in when you are on holiday and have escaped from the reality of "hectic and busyness of life"; don;t you think that the reality you perceive is "limited" and applicable to when you are "on holiday and have escaped from the reality".
Sure, you have to be able to perceive emptiness, " when you are "on holiday and have escaped from the reality" but as long as you cannot perceive reality under all circumstances including "hectic and busyness of life", your perception of reality is immediately suspect.
When you cannot explain what practice is in fact doing, if you have no clear idea of what practice is in fact really doing or trying to do, to enable one to have an intuitive perception of emptiness. I doubt you can understand what you are trying to say.
One who lives in activities, may not be able to sit. One who is able to sit, may not be able to live in activities.
It is important to both sit and live. -
How can we make big claims like being able to live equally like sitting or in all circumstances when we can't even know how to truly sit?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Did I say meditation over living? I am trying to convey the importance of both. You cannot skew to one side.
One who lives in activities, may not be able to sit. One who is able to sit, may not be able to live in activities.
It is important to both sit and live.
Therefore, one should not emphasize activities over sitting/stilling. At the same time one should not over-emphasis of 'sitting' and neglecting engagement and seeing dharma in daily activities. -
What I am trying to convey to you is that if you can see emptiness in everyday life, then you have no problem see emptiness when you are sitting and doing nothing.
Sure, you might want to start seeing emptiness while you are sitting down and doing nothing because that is easier. You are trying to see emptiness while you have blocked out, escaped from life.
When you do that, see emptiness while on a "trip", when you come back to real life, your "seeing" shatters.
It is important to be able to see emptiness in real life, in the difficult seeing, but of course, if you cannot see emptiness while on a trip, escaped, when it is easier to see emptiness, it would be at first glanced seem impossible to see emptiness "in the busyness and activities of life".
Anyway, you have failed to answer the question, what "the practice" is trying to do and how practicing can help you see emptiness, what the mindfulness and awareness is trying to do and how mindfulness and awareness helps you see emptiness. -
Like I said, how many can truly sit? If we can't how can we make big claims when we can't even sit? How many can drop off body mind in meditation and just sit? If one can't, one should just "sit down and shut up" instead of babbling about being able to meditate equally in daily lives. Sitting and living serves different purposes, both are needed. But our Buddha Nature, luminous-emptiness/the inseparability of appearance and emptiness, is everpresent.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:What I am trying to convey to you is that if you can see emptiness in everyday life, then you have no problem see emptiness when you are sitting and doing nothing.
Sure, you might want to start seeing emptiness while you are sitting down and doing nothing because that is easier. You are trying to see emptiness while you have blocked out, escaped from life.
When you do that, see emptiness while on a "trip", when you come back to real life, your "seeing" shatters.
It is important to be able to see emptiness in real life, in the difficult seeing, but of course, if you cannot see emptiness while on a trip, escaped, when it is easier to see emptiness, it would be at first glanced seem impossible to see emptiness "in the busyness and activities of life".
My Taiwanese teacher (as I mentioned he sits up to 6 hours a day), makes his students sit 1~2 hours with him every time. Those who receive dharma transmission from him are told to practice sitting regularly.
Thusness, our experienced forummer, who has a very busy life and also often talks about the importance of non-dual in daily activities, would be retiring in 2 years time, where he will be around 42 years old. After that he will spend many months overseas in deep meditative retreat, and also, he wants to spend (in Singapore) at least 4 hours everyday to do sitting.
In the sutras, it is stated that Bodhisattvas too will have to spend certain lifetimes hidden in the jungles and caves, dedicating their lives totally to self cultivation and meditation.
(10:42 PM) Thusness: although experiencing dharma in daily activities is important, know the importance of sitting.
(10:44 PM) Thusness: Your master chen once made comments about the theravada** on the aspect of sitting because they skewed towards sitting but he himself sat for 6 hours and tell only disciple that can sit more than half an hour can recieve direct teaching from him. Why is this so?
(10:45 PM) Thusness: he wanted to stressed the over-emphasis of 'sitting' in the Theravada tradition and neglecting engagement and seeing dharma in daily activities.
(10:46 PM) Thusness: But that is because one fail to 'see' the importance of practice dharma in the daily activities.
(10:47 PM) Thusness: It is not to say 'sitting' is not important. It is in fact very very important.
(10:48 PM) Thusness: But the truth of dharma should be seen in all moments.
(10:49 PM) Thusness: Equal emphasis of 'sitting' have been stressed in all traditions, in the past till now.
(10:50 PM) Thusness: Do not mistake that 'dong zhong xiu' is 'higher' than 'qing zhong xiu'.
(10:58 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:58 PM) AEN: ya true
(11:01 PM) Thusness: u were reminded of the importance in seeing dharma by engaging in daily activities by ur masters...in fact many of the threads u have stated that. There is no doubt about it.
(11:02 PM) Thusness: But that should not be 'over-emphasized' either.
(11:02 PM) Thusness:
** just a note: my teacher wasn't pointing at the Theravada tradition but generally any 'xiao cheng' practitioners who focus mainly on sitting all day alone to train up their practice and samadhi and attain private liberation. certainly not all theravada teachings overemphasize sitting over daily practice. -
Look at this picture:Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:Anyway, you have failed to answer the question, what "the practice" is trying to do and how practicing can help you see emptiness, what the mindfulness and awareness is trying to do and how mindfulness and awareness helps you see emptiness.http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22556281-661,00.html
Hint: look at the upper and lower part of the legs. They are actually on the same 'level', though it appears that one is in front of another. Furthermore, you will only perceive the legs moving in a single direction, though it is equally 'valid' of both directions. If you observe closely (with mindfulness) around the leg enough, you'll be able to 'switch side' at will. Of course if you are not mindful you will not see it.
THE Right Brain vs Left Brain test ... do you see the dancer turning clockwise or anti-clockwise?
If clockwise, then you use more of the right side of the brain and vice versa.
Most of us would see the dancer turning anti-clockwise though you can try to focus and change the direction; see if you can do it.
LEFT BRAIN FUNCTIONS
uses logic
detail oriented
facts rule
words and language
present and past
math and science
can comprehend
knowing
acknowledges
order/pattern perception
knows object name
reality based
forms strategies
practical
safe
RIGHT BRAIN FUNCTIONS
uses feeling
"big picture" oriented
imagination rules
symbols and images
present and future
philosophy & religion
can "get it" (i.e. meaning)
believes
appreciates
spatial perception
knows object function
fantasy based
presents possibilities
impetuous
risk taking
Not only does this image tells you what kind of 'brain' are you, but more importantly it tells you how the same thing can have two different way of perception.
The two way of perception in Buddhism may be known as 'samsara' and 'nirvana', though they are based in the One Mind, and One Reality, and are non-dual. The sage views with transcendental perception, the ordinary views with samsaric perception, but they live in the same world.
If we can constantly observe the 3 dharma seals in all phenomena with mindfulness at all time, eventually it will click -- one will see it, an intuitive quantum leap of perception to Emptiness of all phenomena will happen.
Regarding how to observe the three characteristics: 5. The Three Characteristics
As I wrote previously that Nirvana is Samsara rightly seen, and,As Nagarjuna said, "That which, taken as causal or dependent, is the process of being born and passing on, is, taken noncausally and beyond all dependence, declared to be nirvana." And as David Loy said so nicely in The Difference between Samsara and Nirvana: There is only one reality -- this world, right here -- but this world may be experienced in two different ways. Samsara is the "relative" world as usually experienced, in which "I" dualistically perceive "it" as a collection of objects which interact causally in space and time. Nirvana is the world as it is in itself, nondualistic in that it incorporates both subject and object into a whole which, Madhyamika insists, cannot be characterized (Chandrakirti: "Nirvana or Reality is that which is absolved of all thought-construction" ), but which Yogacara nevertheless sometimes calls "Mind" or "Buddhanature" and so forth.
As for what are we to be aware? There is no fixed objects, even though in meditation one's mindfulness may be concentrated in one's breathing. But it is not a fixed object but a whole conditioned-arising-luminous-empty-process, and mindfulness does not require any particular objects. We can be mindful all the time.
When we are mindful, we will be aware of our thoughts, and not be lost in our thinking. Necessary thoughts can arise but we are conscious of them. Not only are we mindful in our thinking, we are also attentive of everything -- even a speck dust that passes by, one who is mindful and alert will be able to know it. For a Buddha -- a flower that blossoms in another universe, he will know it as if it is in the palm of his hands.
And the nature of all phenomena will be witnessed moment to moment.
All these are already elaborated previously. -
You asked the right question but you gave the wrong answer. You gave the answer to a different question.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:As for what are we to be aware? There is no fixed objects, even though in meditation one's mindfulness may be concentrated in one's breathing. But it is not a fixed object but a whole conditioned-arising-luminous-empty-process, and mindfulness does not require any particular objects. We can be mindful all the time.
As for what are we
Is asking the reason/s "to be aware" "to be mindful", "to practice"... to explain how that leads to the seeing of emptiness / the intuitive perception of emptiness.
It is not, "what are we"? it is " for what are we [/b]?
The answer to "what are we to be aware"? is "There is no fixed objects".....
After so many posts, you are still trying to give me details and have not told me the for what part! And I have already given you the exercise example ... -
Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
In fact I have already explained that in the same post.
You asked the right question but you gave the wrong answer. You gave the answer to a different question.
[b]As for what are we
Is asking the reason/s "to be aware" "to be mindful", "to practice"... to explain how that leads to the seeing of emptiness / the intuitive perception of emptiness.
It is not, "what are we"? it is " for what are we [/b]?
The answer to "what are we to be aware"? is "There is no fixed objects".....
After so many posts, you are still trying to give me details and have not told me the for what part! And I have already given you the exercise example ... [/b] -
I guess if you think that you have answered the question, then there is nothing else to go on.
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Yes, and this:Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:I guess if you think that you have answered the question, then there is nothing else to go on.
Awareness -->Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Many months ago:
(12:21 AM) Thusness: what is the role of insight meditation?
(12:22 AM) Thusness: why bare attention?
(12:22 AM) Thusness: why naked awareness?
(12:22 AM) Thusness: when insight meditation is taught and buddha said when hearing just the sound...this and that...
(12:23 AM) Thusness: what buddha wanted is to experience directly what awareness is, the arising, the ceasing, the clarity, the non-dual nature
(12:23 AM) Thusness: in DO (dependent origination)
(12:24 AM) AEN_____: icic..
(12:24 AM) Thusness: not to note it with thought or place any conclusion on any experience.
(12:25 AM) Thusness: "this is impermanence" is not about noting and place any conclusion about an phenomenon arising.
(12:26 AM) Thusness: but experience impermanence directly, not in words
(12:26 AM) AEN_____: icic.. yea
(12:26 AM) Thusness: be impermanence and know what is it really...
(12:26 AM) Thusness: see what clarity is, not what it should be
(12:27 AM) Thusness: it is luminous and yet empty...experience it directly...it is so.
(12:27 AM) AEN_____: icic..
(12:27 AM) Thusness: break the solidity until there is no holding simply thus.
Know what impermanence really is
See what clarity is
Break the solidity until there is no holding simply thus
Anyway if you think of any better explanations pls share with us. -
You are already in reality, whether you see it or not. Reality is what's here, now. Thus you're here now, too. You know all this already, from direct experience. You're not separated from Reality. It's not "out there" somewhere, but right here.
This provides us with the chance to wake up. You have this chance to wake up right now, in this moment, and in every moment. Thus enlightenment is already yours.
Most of us tend to think - and have been taught - that it's the other way around, that we've got to figure something out. But no. We don't need to fgure out our own experience; it's already here, firsthand.
You are already enlightened. All you've got to do is stop blocking yourself and get serious about attending to what's going on. You are not lacking a thing. You only need to stop blocking or interpreting your vision.
~ Buddhism Plain & Simple, Steve Hagen -
I find it so strange that you do not understand the question.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:You are already in reality, whether you see it or not. Reality is what's here, now. Thus you're here now, too. You know all this already, from direct experience. You're not separated from Reality. It's not "out there" somewhere, but right here.
This provides us with the chance to wake up. You have this chance to wake up right now, in this moment, and in every moment. Thus enlightenment is already yours.
Most of us tend to think - and have been taught - that it's the other way around, that we've got to figure something out. But no. We don't need to fgure out our own experience; it's already here, firsthand.
You are already enlightened. All you've got to do is stop blocking yourself and get serious about attending to what's going on. You are not lacking a thing. You only need to stop blocking or interpreting your vision.
~ Buddhism Plain & Simple, Steve Hagen
How, how does meditating, practicing according to the dharma, how does it " provides us with the chance to wake up " or how does it " stop blocking or interpreting your vision " and instead of explaining how, you just give more and more examples of WHAT " meditating, practicing according to the dharma, sitting, going to hide in the caves " can help you achieve but you fail to explain HOW it can help you achieve it. -
What does exercising do? It helps you become physically healthy.
How does exercising help you become physically healthy?
Exercising works your muscles and that strengthens your muscles. heart and lungs and when you strengthen your muscles heart and lungs, that keeps you healthy.
Stop telling me over and over again the various ways to exercise and tell me HOW exercise keeps people healthy.
You can walk. (wrong answer)
You can jog. (wrong answer)
You can go to the gym. (wrong answer)
You can dance. (wrong answer)
Walking makes you healthy. (wrong answer)
Jogging makes you healthy. (wrong answer)
Gym makes you healthy. (wrong answer)
Dancing makes you healthy. (wrong answer)
"(wrong answer)" because the question is HOW not WHAT.
You practice according to the dharma. (wrong answer)
You meditate. (wrong answer)
You hide in the caves. (wrong answer)
You sit still. (wrong answer) -
Like I said,Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:What does exercising do? It helps you become physically healthy.
How does exercising help you become physically healthy?
Exercising works your muscles and that strengthens your muscles. heart and lungs and when you strengthen your muscles heart and lungs, that keeps you healthy.
Stop telling me over and over again the various ways to exercise and tell me HOW exercise keeps people healthy.
You can walk. (wrong answer)
You can jog. (wrong answer)
You can go to the gym. (wrong answer)
You can dance. (wrong answer)
Walking makes you healthy. (wrong answer)
Jogging makes you healthy. (wrong answer)
Gym makes you healthy. (wrong answer)
Dancing makes you healthy. (wrong answer)
"(wrong answer)" because the question is HOW not WHAT.
You practice according to the dharma. (wrong answer)
You meditate. (wrong answer)
You hide in the caves. (wrong answer)
You sit still. (wrong answer)
Awareness --> Know what impermanence really is, See what clarity is, Break the solidity until there is no holding simply thus, therefore --> Enlightenment -
Are you saying that doing all that will lead to awareness?
Are you saying that sitting down, for example, for long hours will lead to awareness?
How?
How will sitting down for two hours help you to be aware?