The nature of the separate self, duality
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No, sitting is just sitting, your 'mind state' is what is impt. A person can sit and just doze off, no awareness, or enter an absorption where 5 senses shut off but produces no insights or wisdom. But if he sits and is aware, then it is productive meditation.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:Are you saying that doing all that will lead to awareness?
Are you saying that sitting down, for example, for long hours will lead to awareness?
How?
How will sitting down for two hours help you to be aware? -
That is why I keep asking you to explain HOW, how sitting down for a few hours, HOW practicing the dharma, HOW hiding in the caves for a period, HOW doing all that any of that can help people see emptiness but you fail to do that.
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Yes, but I just answered in the previous post isn't it?Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:That is why I keep asking you to explain HOW, how sitting down for a few hours, HOW practicing the dharma, HOW hiding in the caves for a period, HOW doing all that any of that can help people see emptiness but you fail to do that.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Like I said,
Awareness --> Know what impermanence really is, See what clarity is, Break the solidity until there is no holding simply thus, therefore --> Enlightenment -
BTW 2 days back I was searching 'AndrewPKYap' on google and came across this forum, and noticed that the topic starter had a wrong understanding of No-Self.
So ever since, I have flooded that thread with extremely lengthy post, which is obviously my usual style.
I'm posting the url here because it's also related to this topic.
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=222676 -
...Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Yes, but I just answered in the previous post isn't it? -
The way you write is very misleading....Originally posted by An Eternal Now:BTW 2 days back I was searching 'AndrewPKYap' on google and came across this forum, and noticed that the topic starter had a wrong understanding of No-Self.
So ever since, I have flooded that thread with extremely lengthy post, which is obviously my usual style.
I'm posting the url here because it's also related to this topic.
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=222676
I did not start that thread.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Yes, but I just answered in the previous post isn't it?
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
The issue is that everyone knows the concept. Everyone is "aware" of the concept, that there is no "solidity".
Like I said,
Awareness --> Know what impermanence really is, See what clarity is, Break the solidity until there is no holding simply thus, therefore --> Enlightenment
You said that people need to have an intuitive perception and not just the conceptual knowledge.
You said that the way to do it is to "practice" "be mindful" [b]"be aware"[b] "sit" "hide in a cave" and I asked you how, yes HOW doing all that can help you have an "an intuitive perception and not just the conceptual knowledge." -
And I already said, it is because being aware will let you "experience impermanence directly, not in words", "be impermanence and know what is it really... ", "see what clarity is, not what it should be.. it is luminous and yet empty...experience it directly...it is so. ", "Break the solidity until there is no holding simply thus"Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:The issue is that everyone knows the concept. Everyone is "aware" of the concept, that there is no "solidity".
You said that people need to have an intuitive perception and not just the conceptual knowledge.
You said that the way to do it is to "practice" "be mindful" [b]"be aware"[b] "sit" "hide in a cave" and I asked you how, yes HOW doing all that can help you have an "an intuitive perception and not just the conceptual knowledge."
Therefore leading to intuitive perception and not just conceptual knowledge. -
So your explanation is that "being aware" ; "let you "experience impermanence directly" ; "experience it directly" and will lead to "intuitive perception "Originally posted by An Eternal Now:And I already said, it is because being aware will let you "experience impermanence directly, not in words", "be impermanence and know what is it really... ", "see what clarity is, not what it should be.. it is luminous and yet empty...experience it directly...it is so. ", "Break the solidity until there is no holding simply thus"
Therefore leading to intuitive perception and not just conceptual knowledge.
So how to be aware? If you are going top tell me that you have to practice and meditate and hide in caves and so on and so forth, please don't waste your time, because I will be asking you and (not how to) but how "practice and meditate and hide in caves and so on and so forth", but HOW, and but how doing all this will help you be aware and but how will it lead to "intuitive perception "?
First you said, "see". Then you changed "see" to "intuitive perception" and on further questioning you said that to SEE or to have an "Intuitive Perception" you have to practice (like meditating, hiding yourself in caves, sitting and so on and so forth).
I asked you but HOW practice can help you SEE, you now change the word SEE and INTUITIVE PERCEPTION to AWARE without explaining but HOW (like meditating, hiding yourself in caves, sitting and so on and so forth) can help you SEE, have an INTUITIVE PERCEPTION and to be AWARE. -
Being mindful/aware does NOT mean a quantum leap of perception.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:So your explanation is that "being aware" ; "let you "experience impermanence directly" ; "experience it directly" and will lead to "intuitive perception "
So how to be aware? If you are going top tell me that you have to practice and meditate and hide in caves and so on and so forth, please don't waste your time, because I will be asking you and (not how to) but how "practice and meditate and hide in caves and so on and so forth", but HOW, and but how doing all this will help you be aware and but how will it lead to "intuitive perception "?
First you said, "see". Then you changed "see" to "intuitive perception" and on further questioning you said that to SEE or to have an "Intuitive Perception" you have to practice (like meditating, hiding yourself in caves, sitting and so on and so forth).
I asked you but HOW practice can help you SEE, you now change the word SEE and INTUITIVE PERCEPTION to AWARE without explaining but HOW (like meditating, hiding yourself in caves, sitting and so on and so forth) can help you SEE, have an INTUITIVE PERCEPTION and to be AWARE.
Whether you are sitting or not sitting, you can be aware. Meditation does not lead to insights if you are not mindful/doze off/enter a trance. Whatever posture does not matter, what matters is ARE YOU MINDFUL. That said sitting meditation is still important for aspects of our practice.
Being aware need not be a leap in perception. You may be aware of what is happening but you are still unenlightened to its ultimate nature. Just like you can observe the picture I posted previously and yet still not be able to see how you are able to see it in a different direction. It takes practice, it won't happen immediately.
Awareness just means observe, being aware of what is happening. Being aware of being aware.
The logic is very very simple and I have already explained in my previous post.
Like I said previously, if you look at the picture closely, observe, eventually you will see that you are able to switch side. You may be told you are able to switch side but to you, all you can see is the clockwise movement. That's why you have to observe for yourself to see it for yourself!
Similarly, one may be told that emptiness is the true nature of phenomena. But all you see is the existence of self and the objective world. You are unable to go beyond seeing self and the world as having objective reality, inherent existence.
SO, the Buddha taught us to observe, to be aware of every moment of arising, to directly experience and not just in knowledge, the impermanence, no-self, empty nature of everything... to break our long held concepts and the apparent solidity of our self and the world.
Then eventually you will be able to see/have an intuitive leap of perception and go beyond your concepts and perception of solidity, just like if you observe enough you will be able to switch sides. If you observe the 3 dharma seals in everything, eventually the true nature of everything will become apparent to you. -
Oh yes... and one more aspect. Going beyond symbols. We need to be able to rest in naked awareness beyond symbols and concepts. In our daily lives we are too 'used' to the symbolic world that we become 'in control' of it, our minds are no longer able to rest without symbols and this will prevent further insights.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Being mindful/aware does NOT mean a quantum leap of perception.
Whether you are sitting or not sitting, you can be aware. Meditation does not lead to insights if you are not mindful/doze off/enter a trance. Whatever posture does not matter, what matters is ARE YOU MINDFUL. That said sitting meditation is still important for aspects of our practice.
Being aware need not be a leap in perception. You may be aware of what is happening but you are still unenlightened to its ultimate nature. Just like you can observe the picture I posted previously and yet still not be able to see how you are able to see it in a different direction. It takes practice, it won't happen immediately.
Awareness just means observe, being aware of what is happening. Being aware of being aware.
The logic is very very simple and I have already explained in my previous post.
Like I said previously, if you look at the picture closely, observe, eventually you will see that you are able to switch side. You may be told you are able to switch side but to you, all you can see is the clockwise movement. That's why you have to observe for yourself to see it for yourself!
Similarly, one may be told that emptiness is the true nature of phenomena. But all you see is the existence of self and the objective world. You are unable to go beyond seeing self and the world as having objective reality, inherent existence.
SO, the Buddha taught us to observe, to be aware of every moment of arising, to directly experience and not just in knowledge, the impermanence, no-self, empty nature of everything... to break our long held concepts and the apparent solidity of our self and the world.
Then eventually you will be able to see/have an intuitive leap of perception and go beyond your concepts and perception of solidity, just like if you observe enough you will be able to switch sides. If you observe the 3 dharma seals in everything, eventually the true nature of everything will become apparent to you.
From Transcript of the Lankavatara Sutra sharing by Thusness:Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Ok, now back to Lankavatara Sutra. When we say about... uh, a symbol. Name. Can a mind function without a name, or a symbol? This is something that is very important. I remember during my university days, a professor took out a book and said, tell me what is this. Then he took out something that weÂ’ve never seen before. You just observe only, what is that? You just see only, very attentive, you just look at it. There is no symbol for it, because we cannot identify it. But does that mean that you are enlightened? So we must know that seeing things beyond symbols is still not enough. It is still not sufficient.
So what they meant that to come to a stage of knowing your own reality, there are many conditions. One of them is the capacity to see beyond symbols. But it does not mean that to see beyond symbols, you are enlightened, you can see reality. The second conditions is the experience of Presence. That is the I AMness. That is also very important. This, and the capacity to see in raw, and, the ability to feel every moment as arising and ceasing and passing away, this three conditions must be present. Means that if you do not experience the luminous clarity even just a glimpse, the condition is not there.
Uh, somebody sent a.... ok, the issue of other power. IÂ’ll read about that later. Now I want to talk about the conditions to want to see clarity, to see that all is One Mind. There must be the condition of experiencing Presence. That is a moment of luminosity. There must also be the condition that one is able to see things in raw, means bare attention for a prolong period of time. Means at least half an hour, 20 to 30 minutes, continuously. One must be able to continuously see, touch, and feel in raw. That is beyond symbols.
The third thing is to know about the power of the momentum. Now, the momentum will seem to react very fast only when your mind is really not focused, when your mind is chattering, when your mind is very busy. Your momentum will seem to be very fast. But when you are able to settle your thoughts and see in raw, the momentum seems to be very slow. They arise slowly, and then you can see that they subside. This means that the speed of arising and subsiding becomes very slow. Ok, only when you are able to see this momentum, you'll know what "oh, I made this decision and this way of perception because this momentum is reacting". Then, the condition is present for you to see what reality is all about. Otherwise, reality will always be mistaken as perception, or as an objective world, or as an Eternal Witness. Do you all get what I mean?
{End of Part 1} -
I mean, we become controlled by it.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:we become 'in control' of it -
BTW AndrewPKYap, what is your understanding of being aware? And what is awareness?
Also.. I've shared my understanding. If you think it's wrong, please share your view too. -
There is a problem with your "logic".
This sentence, "Being mindful/aware does NOT mean a quantum leap of perception. " is not answer to the question I posed to you.
I asked you for the last few pages HOW and you did not give me the answer.
What you should say, to answer the question is, "observing"; through meditating can lead to awareness.
When you keep on observing, you will soon see the true picture.
That it can lead to the awareness of "non-self"; "emptiness" and give people an "intuitive perception".
Can you understand that?
Can you understand how this is the correct answer? Can you understand how "observing" is the answer and not awareness? Observing is what leads to awareness and when you are fully aware, you will be able to SEE; have an "intuitive perception" and so on....
Whether I fully agree with you that you can become fully aware by simply "observing" through "meditating" and so on is another matter and we shall not discuss that. How to meditate correctly and so on is another matter.
So I have answered the question regarding HOW and that is "when you observe, you become aware of things that you missed when you did not pay attention, when you were not mindful."
We can of course go deeper and try to understand why Observing can lead to awareness and why with full awareness, you can have that "intuitive perception."
We can also try to understand what this "intuitive perception" is and so on but before all that, please answer the next part.
What about the other parts of the practice, other than "observing through meditating"? How does it bring a person to SEE? -
Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
Ok... I think we are using different words to describe the same thing. You use 'observing' I use 'awareness'.
[b]There is a problem with your "logic".
This sentence, "Being mindful/aware does NOT mean a quantum leap of perception. " is not answer to the question I posed to you.
I asked you for the last few pages HOW and you did not give me the answer.
What you should say, to answer the question is, "observing"; through meditating can lead to awareness.
When you keep on observing, you will soon see the true picture.
That it can lead to the awareness of "non-self"; "emptiness" and give people an "intuitive perception".
Can you understand that?
Can you understand how this is the correct answer? Can you understand how "observing" is the answer and not awareness? Observing is what leads to awareness and when you are fully aware, you will be able to SEE; have an "intuitive perception" and so on....
Whether I fully agree with you that you can become fully aware by simply "observing" through "meditating" and so on is another matter and we shall not discuss that. How to meditate correctly and so on is another matter.
So I have answered the question regarding HOW and that is "when you observe, you become aware of things that you missed when you did not pay attention, when you were not mindful."
We can of course go deeper and try to understand why Observing can lead to awareness and why with full awareness, you can have that "intuitive perception."
We can also try to understand what this "intuitive perception" is and so on but before all that, please answer the next part.What about the other parts of the practice, other than "observing through meditating"? How does it bring a person to SEE?
As mentioned by the previous post, the other aspects including going beyond symbols and becoming aware of the deep conditionings of our karmic propensities/momentum.
Also see: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/07/spell-of-karmic-propensities.html
Resting in naked awareness, to become aware of the functioning of our karmic propensity, is important because it is the propensity that blinds us.
Going beyond symbols is important because a symbolic mind can never understand intuitively, is stuck in its habitual mental constructs and unable to go beyond it. -
The Spell of Karmic Propensities
The following article is a summary (by me) of some of the conversations Thusness had with me on the topic of Karmic Propensities/Karmic Momentum/Deep Conditionings and how it blinds us and completely affects the way we see phenomena.
Karmic Propensities is what blinded us from seeing the ultimate reality. Our entire mind is affected by karmic propensities such that our entire system of enquiry, even when we want to inquire on reality, we cannot know beyond "Who", "When", "What", "Where". Our mind is always thinking dualistically, in terms of subject and object (an I and a Not-I/an Observer apart from the Object of Observation, which cannot be found in reality). It is a momentum that cannot be located, yet it can be directly felt and experienced, and the momentum arises every moment and affect the entire way we see things. When we are affected by momentum the mind cannot know the ultimate reality (Emptiness).
Because our momentum is at work, we will always assume a subject-object duality. That is, there is a Self, an Agent, and observer, doer, thinker of thoughts. A self that persists in time in a connected way... experiencing things... It blinds us into seeing self and objective world as 'entities', as 'things' with inherent existence, as a separate and permanent 'me'.
So when momentum is in action, we cannot help but react with our karmic patterns. If we were to ask, "If you lost your shoe, are you still you?" or "If u lost ur hands, do u still exist?". It almost seems certain to say "Yes, of course I am still I." because we always assumed there is a truly existing "Self" experiencing changes. This momentum can continue even after experiences of transcendental Presence, and distorting the experience. Dharma Dan calls this the "fundamental knot of perception". (See: The Non-Duality Models of Enlightenment by Dharma Dan)
Because it is our habit energy that made us think that way, we are so used to thinking in terms of subject object duality that it has become so deeply part of us, deeply imprinted into our consciousness.
If we were to eliminate this bond, then we can begin to realise, there is no "Self". In reality, there is only Self1, Self2, Self3, moment to moment our mental and karmic factors arise spontaneously but not in a connected way. We are not a permanent self, we are momentary selves and nothing stays, everything is ever flowing.
Without seeing things as 'entities', we can begin to realise the nature of Dependent Co-Arising, Conditionality, Interdependence, etc, i.e Emptiness. The nature is always so, but our karmic propensities obscure us from seeing the truth, distorting the way we see things, enquire things, and perceive things. It is this bond that bonds us life after life in Samsara.
To eliminate the bond we have to feel it, feel the power of the bond, experience it. To eliminate the bond is a matter of insights, the insight into our true nature, the insight into self-liberation, etc. Not only must we eliminate the bond, we must be able to see how "Propensities" blinds us, and that is through naked awareness.
How can naked awareness lead to the insight of our "Propensities"?
Space, time, life, death, in and out are all ‘deeply held’ impressions. We are seldom aware of the “deeply held” until we are able to rest adequately in naked awareness. The nakedness creates the big contrast that provides us the condition for the arising of the insight of the 'deeply held'. The insight into the full power of our ‘propensities’ and resting in naked awareness are both equally crucial in our understanding of our non-dual (no subject-object duality, no separate permanently existing self) and non-local (emptiness of locality) nature.
To consciousness 'propensities' (deep conditioning or imprints) are all that matters. It is the only 'force' that blinds, bonds and prevents a liberating experience. Once formed it remains latent and only surface when conditions are riped for fruition. We are unable to get rid of it by will. Therefore to know consciousness, it is also to know the impact of deep conditioning, how it is formed and how it subsides. There is really no 'why', it is just how consciousness works.
If we drop our body, we experience astral body.
If we drop our thoughts, we experience “I AM”.
If we drop ‘I’, we experience non-duality.
Every major dropping results in a totally new experiential reality. Perhaps that is why Lao Tze teaches us to eliminate until none to experience Tao.
To drop the bondage/deep conditionings, the mind MUST realise that another way of 'knowing' is possible; an effortless, total sensing and experience of wholeness. Next the experiences of the joy, bliss and clarity of wholeness. Without the insight into the possiblity and the experience of the positive factors, the mind will not release itself from holding.
Even open pure and innocent inquiry is a deep conditioning. Makes the mind chatters incessantly. Every what, when, where and why by itself is a distancing from start. Freeing itself from such mode of inquiry aka 'knowing', the mind rests. The joy of this resting must be experienced for the 'willingness' to arise.
P.S. there are different types of meditative bliss/joy/rapture.
Like samatha meditation, each jhana state represents a stage of bliss associated with certain level of concentration; the bliss experienced from insight into our nature differs.
The happiness and pleasure experience by a dualistic mind is different from that experienced by a practitioner. “I AMness” is a higher form of happiness as compared to a dualistic mind that continuously chatters. It is a level of bliss associated with a state of ‘transcendence’ – a state of bliss resulting from the experience of “formlessness, odorless, colorless, attributeless and thoughtlessness’.
No-self or non-dual is higher form of bliss resulted from the direct experience of Oneness and no-separation. It is related to the dropping of the ‘I’. When non-dual is free from perceptions, that bliss is a form transcendence-oneness. It is what Thusness called transparency of non-duality. -
There is really quite some interesting discussions going on lately in there.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:BTW 2 days back I was searching 'AndrewPKYap' on google and came across this forum, and noticed that the topic starter had a wrong understanding of No-Self.
So ever since, I have flooded that thread with extremely lengthy post, which is obviously my usual style.
I'm posting the url here because it's also related to this topic.
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=222676 -
sorry i'm out of topic here...
i haven't been sitting-meditating for awhile and since i find that i'm exhausted with piles of work and chores, i took an alternative route which is meditating in daily living.
an excercise to carry out awareness and mindfulness practice is observe one's daily ride in the train, walking down the streets, sit or working. observe how long can mind maintain its presence (without swaying off) and at the same time aware of as many things happening as you can be mindful of, all without a stir of thought or emotions getting involved.
don't need to control anything, just be mindful - be present.
what you need to do, just do just be naturally and again mindful.
what you speak, be it clear and straight forward, honestly and mindful.
what thought arises, again mindfulness.
what's going on around is from awareness.
you think you are an observer but as you are consistent in the prolonged practice you find your self no where because it is such awareness and mindfulness of things going on around and you "know" it's not a self operating. hehe this reminds me somewhere i remembered someone mentioned or some movie title "ghost in the machine"...
my friend was telling me recently that awareness practice is a new-age thingy but since time is an illusion, it is therefore a timeless practice and i would not even call it a practice because it is the original nature of everyone, the doing without doing, the knowing without knowing, so on....
take a look around the ride, why have we lost our awareness even in a blink of an eye...?
sitting meditation does help one in improving clarity and mindfulness like a boost in repairing the mistakes and flaws before one developes closer and closer with the brilliant wide unlimited.... ____ (is there any other word besides "awareness"?) that thing called pure being / awareness / thus come one....
please share and correct me if i'm wrong. -
Originally posted by paperflower:
Hi Paperflower,
sorry i'm out of topic here...
i haven't been sitting-meditating for awhile and since i find that i'm exhausted with piles of work and chores, i took an alternative route which is meditating in daily living.
With all our will and effort, we are unable to get our mind to rest. But when we are tired, we let go and rest naturally. Tiredness and let go if viewed correctly are one. So when Buddha said "Life is suffering", it is a great wisdom -- nothing pessimistic or negative. Our mind filter very quickly and we may missed the 'great condition' for letting go to arise. So treasure this "exhausted", it can convey very valuable message in time to come. my 2 cents. -
I do not know what to say.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:There is really quite some interesting discussions going on lately in there.
Just want to kok ur head until it burst! -
hehehe so you are "xsurf"Originally posted by An Eternal Now:There is really quite some interesting discussions going on lately in there.
Those people there, they ask very tough questions and that would help you clarify all the issues in your own mind... -
to come into "insight" you must observe as much as possible and that includes observing what other people say and being mindful of the issues that other people bring up; confronting those issues head on instead of avoiding them, is what will help you become aware....
but frankly, Mr AEN, if you are confused about "observing" and "awareness" you have a log way to go... -
i see... i see...Originally posted by Thusness:Hi Paperflower,
With all our will and effort, we are unable to get our mind to rest. But when we are tired, we let go and rest naturally. Tiredness and let go if viewed correctly are one. So when Buddha said "Life is suffering", it is a great wisdom -- nothing pessimistic or negative. Our mind filter very quickly and we may missed the 'great condition' for letting go to arise. So treasure this "exhausted", it can convey very valuable message in time to come. my 2 cents.
thanks Thusness, for the valuable sharing & advice.Originally posted by Thusness:Tiredness and let go if viewed correctly are one. Our mind filter very quickly and we may missed the 'great condition' for letting go to arise. -
Originally posted by Thusness:I do not know what to say.
Just want to kok ur head until it burst! -
I already said, quantum leap of perception is not the same as awareness/observing. I use 'awareness' and 'mindfulness' and 'observing' synonymously.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:to come into "insight" you must observe as much as possible and that includes observing what other people say and being mindful of the issues that other people bring up; confronting those issues head on instead of avoiding them, is what will help you become aware....
but frankly, Mr AEN, if you are confused about "observing" and "awareness" you have a log way to go...