No, sitting is just sitting, your 'mind state' is what is impt. A person can sit and just doze off, no awareness, or enter an absorption where 5 senses shut off but produces no insights or wisdom. But if he sits and is aware, then it is productive meditation.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:Are you saying that doing all that will lead to awareness?
Are you saying that sitting down, for example, for long hours will lead to awareness?
How?
How will sitting down for two hours help you to be aware?
Yes, but I just answered in the previous post isn't it?Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:That is why I keep asking you to explain HOW, how sitting down for a few hours, HOW practicing the dharma, HOW hiding in the caves for a period, HOW doing all that any of that can help people see emptiness but you fail to do that.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Like I said,
Awareness --> Know what impermanence really is, See what clarity is, Break the solidity until there is no holding simply thus, therefore --> Enlightenment
...Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Yes, but I just answered in the previous post isn't it?
The way you write is very misleading....Originally posted by An Eternal Now:BTW 2 days back I was searching 'AndrewPKYap' on google and came across this forum, and noticed that the topic starter had a wrong understanding of No-Self.
So ever since, I have flooded that thread with extremely lengthy post, which is obviously my usual style.
I'm posting the url here because it's also related to this topic.
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=222676
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Yes, but I just answered in the previous post isn't it?
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:The issue is that everyone knows the concept. Everyone is "aware" of the concept, that there is no "solidity".
Like I said,
Awareness --> Know what impermanence really is, See what clarity is, Break the solidity until there is no holding simply thus, therefore --> Enlightenment
And I already said, it is because being aware will let you "experience impermanence directly, not in words", "be impermanence and know what is it really... ", "see what clarity is, not what it should be.. it is luminous and yet empty...experience it directly...it is so. ", "Break the solidity until there is no holding simply thus"Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:The issue is that everyone knows the concept. Everyone is "aware" of the concept, that there is no "solidity".
You said that people need to have an intuitive perception and not just the conceptual knowledge.
You said that the way to do it is to "practice" "be mindful" [b]"be aware"[b] "sit" "hide in a cave" and I asked you how, yes HOW doing all that can help you have an "an intuitive perception and not just the conceptual knowledge."
So your explanation is that "being aware" ; "let you "experience impermanence directly" ; "experience it directly" and will lead to "intuitive perception "Originally posted by An Eternal Now:And I already said, it is because being aware will let you "experience impermanence directly, not in words", "be impermanence and know what is it really... ", "see what clarity is, not what it should be.. it is luminous and yet empty...experience it directly...it is so. ", "Break the solidity until there is no holding simply thus"
Therefore leading to intuitive perception and not just conceptual knowledge.
Being mindful/aware does NOT mean a quantum leap of perception.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:So your explanation is that "being aware" ; "let you "experience impermanence directly" ; "experience it directly" and will lead to "intuitive perception "
So how to be aware? If you are going top tell me that you have to practice and meditate and hide in caves and so on and so forth, please don't waste your time, because I will be asking you and (not how to) but how "practice and meditate and hide in caves and so on and so forth", but HOW, and but how doing all this will help you be aware and but how will it lead to "intuitive perception "?
First you said, "see". Then you changed "see" to "intuitive perception" and on further questioning you said that to SEE or to have an "Intuitive Perception" you have to practice (like meditating, hiding yourself in caves, sitting and so on and so forth).
I asked you but HOW practice can help you SEE, you now change the word SEE and INTUITIVE PERCEPTION to AWARE without explaining but HOW (like meditating, hiding yourself in caves, sitting and so on and so forth) can help you SEE, have an INTUITIVE PERCEPTION and to be AWARE.
Oh yes... and one more aspect. Going beyond symbols. We need to be able to rest in naked awareness beyond symbols and concepts. In our daily lives we are too 'used' to the symbolic world that we become 'in control' of it, our minds are no longer able to rest without symbols and this will prevent further insights.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Being mindful/aware does NOT mean a quantum leap of perception.
Whether you are sitting or not sitting, you can be aware. Meditation does not lead to insights if you are not mindful/doze off/enter a trance. Whatever posture does not matter, what matters is ARE YOU MINDFUL. That said sitting meditation is still important for aspects of our practice.
Being aware need not be a leap in perception. You may be aware of what is happening but you are still unenlightened to its ultimate nature. Just like you can observe the picture I posted previously and yet still not be able to see how you are able to see it in a different direction. It takes practice, it won't happen immediately.
Awareness just means observe, being aware of what is happening. Being aware of being aware.
The logic is very very simple and I have already explained in my previous post.
Like I said previously, if you look at the picture closely, observe, eventually you will see that you are able to switch side. You may be told you are able to switch side but to you, all you can see is the clockwise movement. That's why you have to observe for yourself to see it for yourself!
Similarly, one may be told that emptiness is the true nature of phenomena. But all you see is the existence of self and the objective world. You are unable to go beyond seeing self and the world as having objective reality, inherent existence.
SO, the Buddha taught us to observe, to be aware of every moment of arising, to directly experience and not just in knowledge, the impermanence, no-self, empty nature of everything... to break our long held concepts and the apparent solidity of our self and the world.
Then eventually you will be able to see/have an intuitive leap of perception and go beyond your concepts and perception of solidity, just like if you observe enough you will be able to switch sides. If you observe the 3 dharma seals in everything, eventually the true nature of everything will become apparent to you.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Ok, now back to Lankavatara Sutra. When we say about... uh, a symbol. Name. Can a mind function without a name, or a symbol? This is something that is very important. I remember during my university days, a professor took out a book and said, tell me what is this. Then he took out something that weÂ’ve never seen before. You just observe only, what is that? You just see only, very attentive, you just look at it. There is no symbol for it, because we cannot identify it. But does that mean that you are enlightened? So we must know that seeing things beyond symbols is still not enough. It is still not sufficient.
So what they meant that to come to a stage of knowing your own reality, there are many conditions. One of them is the capacity to see beyond symbols. But it does not mean that to see beyond symbols, you are enlightened, you can see reality. The second conditions is the experience of Presence. That is the I AMness. That is also very important. This, and the capacity to see in raw, and, the ability to feel every moment as arising and ceasing and passing away, this three conditions must be present. Means that if you do not experience the luminous clarity even just a glimpse, the condition is not there.
Uh, somebody sent a.... ok, the issue of other power. IÂ’ll read about that later. Now I want to talk about the conditions to want to see clarity, to see that all is One Mind. There must be the condition of experiencing Presence. That is a moment of luminosity. There must also be the condition that one is able to see things in raw, means bare attention for a prolong period of time. Means at least half an hour, 20 to 30 minutes, continuously. One must be able to continuously see, touch, and feel in raw. That is beyond symbols.
The third thing is to know about the power of the momentum. Now, the momentum will seem to react very fast only when your mind is really not focused, when your mind is chattering, when your mind is very busy. Your momentum will seem to be very fast. But when you are able to settle your thoughts and see in raw, the momentum seems to be very slow. They arise slowly, and then you can see that they subside. This means that the speed of arising and subsiding becomes very slow. Ok, only when you are able to see this momentum, you'll know what "oh, I made this decision and this way of perception because this momentum is reacting". Then, the condition is present for you to see what reality is all about. Otherwise, reality will always be mistaken as perception, or as an objective world, or as an Eternal Witness. Do you all get what I mean?
{End of Part 1}
I mean, we become controlled by it.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:we become 'in control' of it
Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:Ok... I think we are using different words to describe the same thing. You use 'observing' I use 'awareness'.
[b]There is a problem with your "logic".
This sentence, "Being mindful/aware does NOT mean a quantum leap of perception. " is not answer to the question I posed to you.
I asked you for the last few pages HOW and you did not give me the answer.
What you should say, to answer the question is, "observing"; through meditating can lead to awareness.
When you keep on observing, you will soon see the true picture.
That it can lead to the awareness of "non-self"; "emptiness" and give people an "intuitive perception".
Can you understand that?
Can you understand how this is the correct answer? Can you understand how "observing" is the answer and not awareness? Observing is what leads to awareness and when you are fully aware, you will be able to SEE; have an "intuitive perception" and so on....
Whether I fully agree with you that you can become fully aware by simply "observing" through "meditating" and so on is another matter and we shall not discuss that. How to meditate correctly and so on is another matter.
So I have answered the question regarding HOW and that is "when you observe, you become aware of things that you missed when you did not pay attention, when you were not mindful."
We can of course go deeper and try to understand why Observing can lead to awareness and why with full awareness, you can have that "intuitive perception."
We can also try to understand what this "intuitive perception" is and so on but before all that, please answer the next part.
What about the other parts of the practice, other than "observing through meditating"? How does it bring a person to SEE?As mentioned by the previous post, the other aspects including going beyond symbols and becoming aware of the deep conditionings of our karmic propensities/momentum.
There is really quite some interesting discussions going on lately in there.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:BTW 2 days back I was searching 'AndrewPKYap' on google and came across this forum, and noticed that the topic starter had a wrong understanding of No-Self.
So ever since, I have flooded that thread with extremely lengthy post, which is obviously my usual style.
I'm posting the url here because it's also related to this topic.
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=222676
Originally posted by paperflower:Hi Paperflower,
sorry i'm out of topic here...
i haven't been sitting-meditating for awhile and since i find that i'm exhausted with piles of work and chores, i took an alternative route which is meditating in daily living.
I do not know what to say.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:There is really quite some interesting discussions going on lately in there.
hehehe so you are "xsurf"Originally posted by An Eternal Now:There is really quite some interesting discussions going on lately in there.
i see... i see...Originally posted by Thusness:Hi Paperflower,
With all our will and effort, we are unable to get our mind to rest. But when we are tired, we let go and rest naturally. Tiredness and let go if viewed correctly are one. So when Buddha said "Life is suffering", it is a great wisdom -- nothing pessimistic or negative. Our mind filter very quickly and we may missed the 'great condition' for letting go to arise. So treasure this "exhausted", it can convey very valuable message in time to come. my 2 cents.
thanks Thusness, for the valuable sharing & advice.Originally posted by Thusness:Tiredness and let go if viewed correctly are one. Our mind filter very quickly and we may missed the 'great condition' for letting go to arise.
Originally posted by Thusness:I do not know what to say.
Just want to kok ur head until it burst!
I already said, quantum leap of perception is not the same as awareness/observing. I use 'awareness' and 'mindfulness' and 'observing' synonymously.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:to come into "insight" you must observe as much as possible and that includes observing what other people say and being mindful of the issues that other people bring up; confronting those issues head on instead of avoiding them, is what will help you become aware....
but frankly, Mr AEN, if you are confused about "observing" and "awareness" you have a log way to go...