The nature of the separate self, duality
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
This is refining the non-dual experience with the emptiness nature of our awareness from a Buddhist perspective. It will reduce the ‘gasping’ of self significantly if experienced intuitively. That said, we should also bear in mind that the purpose of expounding the emptiness nature of any arising is to realize that the ‘transients’ are really our very Buddha nature. Ultimately ‘emptiness’ is still a ‘raft’ that must be discarded. Practice must enable us to experience the ‘the most real of the appearances’ -- the full vivid aliveness yet empty at that moment. This is the luminous aspect of practice.
If you see a colourful flower and a dog and an insect too sees it, you and the dog and the ant are not going to see the same things. The dog is only going to see black and white. Why? Because the nature of the flower is Empty -- there is no graspable 'Essence of Flower' or the 'Flowerness of the Flower' -- Flower is empty of any inherent existence, being only conditioned arising, merely the aggregation of causes and conditions, and having no reality apart from it!
Just to illustrate a little on the example of 'flowerness':
There is no ‘the flowerness’ seen by a dog, an insect or us. ‘The flowerness’ is an illusion that does not stay even for a moment, merely an aggregate of causes and conditions. Analogous to the example of ‘flowerness’, there is no ‘selfness’ serving as a background witnessing either -- pristine awareness is not the witnessing background. Rather, the entire whole of the moment of manifestation is our pristine awareness; lucidly clear, yet empty of inherent existence. This the way of ‘seeing’ the one as many, the observer and the observed are one and the same. This is also the meaning of formlessness and attribute-less of our nature.
How does a dualistic mind see it?
A dualistic mind understands differently. A mind that is dualistic is quick to objectify ‘formlessness and atribute-less’ into an empty-invisible-void entity observing transients manifestation. It ‘dualifies’ form from formlessness and attempts to separate from itself. This is not ‘I’, ‘I’ am the changeless and perfect stillness behind the transients appearances. Therefore ‘impersonality’ appears cold and lifeless. But this is not the case for a non-dual practitioner in Buddhism. For him/her, the ‘formlessness and attribute-less’ is vividly alive, full of colors and sounds. ‘Formlessness’ is not understood apart from ‘Forms’ – the ‘form of formlessness’, the texture and fabric of awareness. They are one and the same. -
Originally posted by Thusness:
Hmm.. Chim...
This is refining the non-dual experience with the emptiness nature of our awareness from a Buddhist perspective. It will reduce the ‘gasping’ of self significantly if experienced intuitively. That said, we should also bear in mind that the purpose of expounding the emptiness nature of any arising is to realize that the ‘transients’ are really our very Buddha nature. Ultimately ‘emptiness’ is still a ‘raft’ that must be discarded. Practice must enable us to experience the ‘[b]the most real of the appearances’ -- the full vivid aliveness yet empty at that moment. This is the luminous aspect of practice.
Just to illustrate a little on the example of 'flowerness':
There is no ‘the flowerness’ seen by a dog, an insect or us. ‘The flowerness’ is an illusion that does not stay even for a moment, merely an aggregate of causes and conditions. Analogous to the example of ‘flowerness’, there is no ‘selfness’ serving as a background witnessing either -- pristine awareness is not the witnessing background. Rather, the entire whole of the moment of manifestation is our pristine awareness; lucidly clear, yet empty of inherent existence. This the way of ‘seeing’ the one as many, the observer and the observed are one and the same. This is also the meaning of formlessness and attribute-less of our nature.
How does a dualistic mind see it?
A dualistic mind understands differently. A mind that is dualistic is quick to objectify ‘formlessness and atribute-less’ into an empty-invisible-void entity observing transients manifestation. It ‘dualifies’ form from formlessness and attempts to separate from itself. This is not ‘I’, ‘I’ am the changeless and perfect stillness behind the transients appearances. Therefore ‘impersonality’ appears cold and lifeless. But this is not the case for a non-dual practitioner in Buddhism. For him/her, the ‘formlessness and attribute-less’ is vividly alive, full of colors and sounds. ‘Formlessness’ is not understood apart from ‘Forms’ – the ‘form of formlessness’, the texture and fabric of awareness. They are one and the same. [/b]
Care to elaborate on the last part in blue? -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Once the sense of self is dissolved, there is totality of action and practice is about this totality in action. There is no question of effort; the only effort comes from the sense of ‘self’. When ‘non-dual and empty’ is fully experienced in our cells and flow in our blood like how dualistic-propensities have so deeply tainted the 5 aggregates, action becomes effortless.
All gain and loss is also simply that -- conditioned arising. The sense of a 'controller' is let go of, no 'self' is in control. This does not mean we must not exert effort to get good exam results (we must exert our fullest effort), it just means that gain and loss must be seen as conditioned arising.
What will this give rise?
Practice is about losing oneself and all merely happens as if 'you' never existed. One must eventually undergo a complete psychological death, and be completely dead in the living. As the saying goes -- die before you die. At that moment, deep dreamless sleep where the self completely subsides, is no longer different from conscious state. There is no more attachment, no more unwillingness and grasping to the need to 'exist' consciously. One requires fearlessness to dissolve this habit of 'self-preservation'... and when that is done, samatha and insight becomes one.
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Originally posted by Thusness:
Thanks for the explanation
This is refining the non-dual experience with the emptiness nature of our awareness from a Buddhist perspective. It will reduce the ‘gasping’ of self significantly if experienced intuitively. That said, we should also bear in mind that the purpose of expounding the emptiness nature of any arising is to realize that the ‘transients’ are really our very Buddha nature. Ultimately ‘emptiness’ is still a ‘raft’ that must be discarded. Practice must enable us to experience the ‘[b]the most real of the appearances’ -- the full vivid aliveness yet empty at that moment. This is the luminous aspect of practice.
Just to illustrate a little on the example of 'flowerness':
There is no ‘the flowerness’ seen by a dog, an insect or us. ‘The flowerness’ is an illusion that does not stay even for a moment, merely an aggregate of causes and conditions. Analogous to the example of ‘flowerness’, there is no ‘selfness’ serving as a background witnessing either -- pristine awareness is not the witnessing background. Rather, the entire whole of the moment of manifestation is our pristine awareness; lucidly clear, yet empty of inherent existence. This the way of ‘seeing’ the one as many, the observer and the observed are one and the same. This is also the meaning of formlessness and attribute-less of our nature.
How does a dualistic mind see it?
A dualistic mind understands differently. A mind that is dualistic is quick to objectify ‘formlessness and atribute-less’ into an empty-invisible-void entity observing transients manifestation. It ‘dualifies’ form from formlessness and attempts to separate from itself. This is not ‘I’, ‘I’ am the changeless and perfect stillness behind the transients appearances. Therefore ‘impersonality’ appears cold and lifeless. But this is not the case for a non-dual practitioner in Buddhism. For him/her, the ‘formlessness and attribute-less’ is vividly alive, full of colors and sounds. ‘Formlessness’ is not understood apart from ‘Forms’ – the ‘form of formlessness’, the texture and fabric of awareness. They are one and the same. [/b]
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A NEW INSIGHT....Originally posted by Thusness:What will this give rise? -
Interestingly enough, all these sounds rather closely linked to theories of Devilism and G.O.D. system....
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Insight into emptiness and self-liberation?Once the sense of self is dissolved, there is totality of action and practice is about this totality in action. There is no question of effort; the only effort comes from the sense of ‘self’. When ‘non-dual and empty’ is fully experienced in our cells and flow in our blood like how dualistic-propensities have so deeply tainted the 5 aggregates, action becomes effortless.[/quote]
I see...
[quote]Originally posted by Thusness:What will this give rise? -
Originally posted by Devil1976:Interestingly enough, all these sounds rather closely linked to theories of Devilism and G.O.D. system....
Those got talk about liberation and emptiness meh
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An extra point:Originally posted by An Eternal Now:A bird is chirping happily outside... just that sound. The whole universe is just that sound. Completely real, but never staying... gone as it arises. Merely a conditioned manifestation that is empty.
Â…
In reality, there only is the universe manifesting as it is in itself, conditioned arising, a mere happening that happens to no-one. Whatever arises at that moment, is as it is. If pain arises, it is not 'your pain' from 'your body'. The universe is pain and it is happening to no one because there is no self apart from manifestation.
Here the highlight must not only be the empty nature of ‘sound’ alone, that luminosity as ‘sound’ must similarly be emphasized. When we stripped-off the symbolic representation of ‘bird’, ‘chirping’, ‘outside’, ‘eyes-organ’, ‘ears-organs’, ‘senate reality’ and merely experience in bare, this is the meditative state of intuitively knowing that quality of being luminous in oneness. Oneness as there is nothing to divide when devoid of these symbolic layering. The depth of the crystal clarity of that pure experience – ‘chirping’ is not what language can convey. The point here is not to bring about a scientific study on the topic of qualia but to have a direct feel of the full absorption in the delight of that clear-luminosity of ‘sound’. It is the ‘depth and degree’ of absorptive-clarity yet non-staying that is most important; not the symbolic understand of meanings.
It may be a good prompt at this juncture to ask "Is remaining ‘in the mode that is free of symbols’ the only way to experience non-duality?" -
The understanding 'of arising as yuan' must be factored to all aspects of our lives. Applying this insight to the six stages of my experiences, you must see them not as indications of stages at all. There are no higher or lower stages, all merely serves as conditions for ‘new insight’ to arise. A practitioner may start from training himself to ‘witness’ the empty nature of phenomena (stage 6) yet still having a clear distinction of observer and observed being dual; but the gradual loosening of ‘solidity’ of all internal or external phenomena having no inherent existence will slowly leads to the non-dual experience.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:All gain and loss is also simply that -- conditioned arising. The sense of a 'controller' is let go of, no 'self' is in control. This does not mean we must not exert effort to get good exam results (we must exert our fullest effort), it just means that gain and loss must be seen as conditioned arising. -
Originally posted by Thusness:
Yes.. the essence is the clarity
An extra point:
Here the highlight must not only be the empty nature of ‘sound’ alone, that luminosity as ‘sound’ must similarly be emphasized. When we stripped-off the symbolic representation of ‘bird’, ‘chirping’, ‘outside’, ‘eyes-organ’, ‘ears-organs’, ‘senate reality’ and merely experience in bare, this is the meditative state of intuitively knowing that quality of being luminous in oneness. Oneness as there is nothing to divide when devoid of these symbolic layering. The depth of the crystal clarity of that pure experience – ‘chirping’ is not what language can convey. The point here is not to bring about a scientific study on the topic of qualia but to have a direct feel of the full absorption in the delight of that clear-luminosity of ‘sound’. It is the ‘depth and degree’ of absorptive-clarity yet non-staying that is most important; not the symbolic understand of meanings.It may be a good prompt at this juncture to ask "Is remaining ‘in the mode that is free of symbols’ the only way to experience non-duality?"[/b]
As long as clarity is not lost, symbols cannot affect us or confuse us, am I right?
At that time, we are free to use or not to use symbols. Thoughts become integrated into Presence. -
Oic..Originally posted by Thusness:The understanding 'of arising as yuan' must be factored to all aspects of our lives. Applying this insight to the six stages of my experiences, you must see them not as indications of stages at all. There are no higher or lower stages, all merely serves as conditions for ‘new insight’ to arise. A practitioner may start from training himself to ‘witness’ the empty nature of phenomena (stage 6) yet still having a clear distinction of observer and observed being dual; but the gradual loosening of ‘solidity’ of all internal or external phenomena having no inherent existence will slowly leads to the non-dual experience. -
All that arises
is essentially no more real
than a reflection,
transparently pure and clear,
beyond all definition
or logical explanation.
Yet seeds of past action,
karma, continue to cause
further arising.
Even so,
know that all that exists
is ultimately void of self-nature,
utterly non-dual!
~ Buddha -
Although apparent phenomena
manifest as diversity
yet this diversity is non-dual
and of all the multiplicity
of individual things that exist
none can be confined in a limited concept.
Staying free from the trap of any attempt
to say it's 'like this', or 'like that',
it becomes clear that all manifested forms
are aspects of the infinite formless,
and, indivisible from it,
are self-perfected.
Seeing that everything is self-perfected
from the very beginning,
the disease of striving for any achievement
comes to an end of its own accord,
and just remaining in the natural state as it is,
the presence of non-dual contemplation
continuously, spontaneously arises.
~ The Six Vajra Verses -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Just saw something similar by Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, in Advice On Presence And Awareness
If you see a colourful flower and a dog and an insect too sees it, you and the dog and the ant are not going to see the same things. The dog is only going to see black and white. Why? Because the nature of the flower is Empty -- there is no graspable 'Essence of Flower' or the 'Flowerness of the Flower' -- Flower is empty of any inherent existence, being only conditioned arising, merely the aggregation of causes and conditions, and having no reality apart from it!
...For this reason Padma Sambhava said: 'the mind is the creator of Samsara and of Nirvana. Outside the mind there exists neither Samsara nor Nirvana. 'Having thus established that the basis of Samsara and Nirvana is the mind, it follows that all that seems concrete in the world, and all the seeming solidity of beings themselves, is nothing but an illusory vision of one's own mind.
Just as a person who has a 'bile' disease sees a shell as being yellow even if one can see objectively that that is not its true color, so in just the same way, as a result of the particular karmic causes of sentient beings, the various illusory visions manifest. Thus, if one were to meet a being of each of the six states of existence on the bank of the same river, they would not see that river in the same way, since they each would have different karmic causes. The beings of the hot hells would see the river as fire; those of the cold hells would see it as ice; beings of the hungry ghost realm would see the river as blood and pus; aquatic animals would see it as an environment to live in; human beings would see the river as water to drink; while the demi-gods would see it as weapons, and the gods as nectar. This shows that in reality nothing exists as concrete and objective. Therefore, understanding that the root of Samsara is truly the mind, one should set out to pull up the root. Recognizing that the mind itself is the essence of Enlightenment one attains liberation. Thus, being aware that the basis of Samsara and Nirvana is only the mind, one takes the decision to practice.... -
Reality here refers to phenomena (experiential reality) and in religious parlance, they are referred to as forms, maya or appearances. When we talk about 'sound', we are not refering to the physical processes of how the air molecules hit our ear drums. It is the sudden, out of nowhere, the magical birth of ‘sound’ that we are exploring. This becomes more obvious when we inquire into sight -- our most powerful sense. The question of how all those inverted images in our retina are able to give rise to the sensation of an 'external' world that is so vividly real, full of colors and motion is puzzling. Maya is as amazing as our buddha nature...Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Just saw something similar by Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, in Advice On Presence And Awareness
...For this reason Padma Sambhava said: 'the mind is the creator of Samsara and of Nirvana. Outside the mind there exists neither Samsara nor Nirvana. 'Having thus established that the basis of Samsara and Nirvana is the mind, it follows that all that seems concrete in the world, and all the seeming solidity of beings themselves, is nothing but an illusory vision of one's own mind.
Just as a person who has a 'bile' disease sees a shell as being yellow even if one can see objectively that that is not its true color, so in just the same way, as a result of the particular karmic causes of sentient beings, the various illusory visions manifest. Thus, if one were to meet a being of each of the six states of existence on the bank of the same river, they would not see that river in the same way, since they each would have different karmic causes. The beings of the hot hells would see the river as fire; those of the cold hells would see it as ice; beings of the hungry ghost realm would see the river as blood and pus; aquatic animals would see it as an environment to live in; human beings would see the river as water to drink; while the demi-gods would see it as weapons, and the gods as nectar. This shows that in reality nothing exists as concrete and objective. Therefore, understanding that the root of Samsara is truly the mind, one should set out to pull up the root. Recognizing that the mind itself is the essence of Enlightenment one attains liberation. Thus, being aware that the basis of Samsara and Nirvana is only the mind, one takes the decision to practice....
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True..Originally posted by Thusness:Reality here refers to phenomena (experiential reality) and in religious parlance, they are referred to as forms, maya or appearances. When we talk about 'sound', we are not refering to the physical processes of how the air molecules hit our ear drums. It is the sudden, out of nowhere, the magical birth of ‘sound’ that we are exploring. This becomes more obvious when we inquire into sight -- our most powerful sense. The question of how all those inverted images in our retina are able to give rise to the sensation of an 'external' world that is so vividly real, full of colors and motion is puzzling. Maya is as amazing as our buddha nature... -
Form is Emptiness is nonsense if you forget that Emptiness is form....
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One who realises that form is emptiness also realises that emptiness is form. Because if it is an experiential insight, one also realises the intrinsic luminosity of appearances.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:Form is Emptiness is nonsense if you forget that Emptiness is form....
As I wrote, (because all is empty), Whatever arises is the whole universe manifesting as that moment. Know that the universe is giving its very best for this moment to arise. All conditions and causes are just right for the birth a moment of manifestation. When this is understood, the 'conditioned arising' is really unconditioned, all spontaneously arise.
The focus here is on the 'spontaneous arising'.
I further wrote:
And all conditioned arising is an expression of the unconditioned Buddha Nature. All that is arising is the Buddha. They are all your pristine awareness at that moment with its nature empty -- never the same and never remain (having no existence and reality apart from conditioned arising), nothing apart from the crystal clear manifestation of appearances. Completely and fully real and gone.
Thusness adds:Originally posted by Thusness:An extra point:
Here the highlight must not only be the empty nature of ‘sound’ alone, that luminosity as ‘sound’ must similarly be emphasized. When we stripped-off the symbolic representation of ‘bird’, ‘chirping’, ‘outside’, ‘eyes-organ’, ‘ears-organs’, ‘senate reality’ and merely experience in bare, this is the meditative state of intuitively knowing that quality of being luminous in oneness. Oneness as there is nothing to divide when devoid of these symbolic layering. The depth of the crystal clarity of that pure experience – ‘chirping’ is not what language can convey. The point here is not to bring about a scientific study on the topic of qualia but to have a direct feel of the full absorption in the delight of that clear-luminosity of ‘sound’. It is the ‘depth and degree’ of absorptive-clarity yet non-staying that is most important; not the symbolic understand of meanings.
It may be a good prompt at this juncture to ask "Is remaining ‘in the mode that is free of symbols’ the only way to experience non-duality?"Originally posted by Thusness:
This is refining the non-dual experience with the emptiness nature of our awareness from a Buddhist perspective. It will reduce the ‘gasping’ of self significantly if experienced intuitively. That said, we should also bear in mind that the purpose of expounding the emptiness nature of any arising is to realize that the ‘transients’ are really our very Buddha nature. Ultimately ‘emptiness’ is still a ‘raft’ that must be discarded. Practice must enable us to experience the ‘the most real of the appearances’ -- the full vivid aliveness yet empty at that moment. This is the luminous aspect of practice.
Just to illustrate a little on the example of 'flowerness':
There is no ‘the flowerness’ seen by a dog, an insect or us. ‘The flowerness’ is an illusion that does not stay even for a moment, merely an aggregate of causes and conditions. Analogous to the example of ‘flowerness’, there is no ‘selfness’ serving as a background witnessing either -- pristine awareness is not the witnessing background. Rather, the entire whole of the moment of manifestation is our pristine awareness; lucidly clear, yet empty of inherent existence. This the way of ‘seeing’ the one as many, the observer and the observed are one and the same. This is also the meaning of formlessness and attribute-less of our nature.
How does a dualistic mind see it?
A dualistic mind understands differently. A mind that is dualistic is quick to objectify ‘formlessness and atribute-less’ into an empty-invisible-void entity observing transients manifestation. It ‘dualifies’ form from formlessness and attempts to separate from itself. This is not ‘I’, ‘I’ am the changeless and perfect stillness behind the transients appearances. Therefore ‘impersonality’ appears cold and lifeless. But this is not the case for a non-dual practitioner in Buddhism. For him/her, the ‘formlessness and attribute-less’ is vividly alive, full of colors and sounds. ‘Formlessness’ is not understood apart from ‘Forms’ – the ‘form of formlessness’, the texture and fabric of awareness. They are one and the same. -
Posted this months ago... about the nature of Dharmakaya --
(Source: Ven Shen Kai, Fa Yu Bing Fen)
Trans.:
"Dharmakaya" means the Thus Come One (Buddha)'s true body; the reality of all dharma/phenomena/manifestations, pervading all spaces, and no where can it not be found. The great sages of the past said, "Green bamboos are completely Dharmakaya; each grass and each tree are all Prajna. Each grass and wood are amidst the ocean of the nature of Thus Come One (i.e Buddha Nature). The illusory great bamboos displays Dharmakaya's substance, it is not that green bamboos means dharmakaya. The illusory luxuriant chrysanthemum expresses the function of Prajna, it is not that chrysanthemums mean Prajna." -
How can luminosity be form? What is form?Originally posted by An Eternal Now: -
Form here means appearances. There is ultimately no fixed form and shapes with inherent existence, this is an illusion. (using the analogy of the flower -- you see red, dog see black & white, therefore flower has no fixed attributes, form, shapes, etc... but is merely a manifestation of karmic causes and conditions)Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:How can luminosity be form? What is form?
What there is however, is conditioned manifestation which is empty, therefore unconditioned. It is illusory, magical appearances -- because there is no 'solidity' or 'existence' within appearances, but merely a mere manifestation with no reality apart from the causes and conditions.
It is this appearances that are self-luminous, self-shimmering. As Ken Wilber describes (see http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/05/some-writings-on-non-duality-by-ken.html), "The entire universe is a transparent shimmering of the Divine, of primordial Purity. But the Divine is not someplace else, it is just all of this shimmering. It is self-seen. It has One Taste. It is nowhere else."
As my Master wrote, "Dharmakaya" means the Thus Come One (Buddha)'s true body; the reality of all dharma/phenomena/manifestations, pervading all spaces, and no where can it not be found. The great sages of the past said, "Green bamboos are completely Dharmakaya; each grass and each tree are all Prajna. Each grass and wood are amidst the ocean of the nature of Thus Come One (i.e Buddha Nature). The illusory great bamboos displays Dharmakaya's substance, it is not that green bamboos means dharmakaya. The illusory luxuriant chrysanthemum expresses the function of Prajna, it is not that chrysanthemums mean Prajna."
It is not that Dharmakaya has fixed forms, shapes and attributes, it is formless -- but the formless is in fact, the appearances -- the mere appearances of sights, the sounds, the flowers, the trees. It is formless because it is empty of any fixed, inherent existence.
This is also what Buddha meant when he said, in seeing, only the seen, no seer. In hearing, only the heard, no hearer... etc (the same goes to smelling, tasting, touching, thinking) There is literally no observer apart from the observed (and no thinker apart from thought, no doer apart from done, etc etc..)
As a Zen Master put it, "When I heard the sound of the bell ringing, there was no I, and no bell, just the ringing."
There is only conditioned manifestation -- mere appearances -- the scenary, the birds chirping, etc (words can never ultimately describe it, it is the pure experience that must be intuitively known) and this appearance is self-knowing, self shimmering. The divine is not anywhere else apart from manifestation. Manifestation is the Source.
No watcher needed, the process itself knows and rolls as Venerable Buddhaghosa writes in the Visuddhi Magga.
Self-luminous manifestation arises, never the same and never remain, nothing apart from the crystal clear manifestation of appearances. Completely and fully real and gone, with no reality/separate existence apart from conditions.
more info: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html -
So.. there you got your explanation in my reply to AndrewPKYap aboveOriginally posted by Devil1976:Hmm.. Chim...
Care to elaborate on the last part in blue? -
The development of this vision is said to spread like a forest fire, until the sense of a subject subsides of its own accord. One experiences the primordial wisdom in which as soon as an object appears, one recognizes its emptiness as being the same as the voidness of one's own state. The inseparability of emptiness and vision, and the presence of the state and emptiness are all experienced together. Then everything can be said 'of one single taste', which is the emptiness of both subject and object. Dualism is completely overcome. Although there is, on the one hand, still the manifestation of the play of energy which, in the dualistic state, we take for objects, and, on the other hand, the cognitive capacity that in the dualistic state we take for a separate subjective self, because of the uninterrupted presence of contemplation we no longer experience the illusion of a dualism between one and the other. This is the state pointed to in the last of the Six Vajra Verses:
Seeing that everything is self-perfected from the very beginning,
the disease of striving for any achievement
comes to an end of its own accord,
and just remaining in the natural state as it is,
the presence of non-dual contemplation
continuously, spontaneously arises.
~ Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
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When 'one taste' is realised, there is no external 'form', 'objects', nor a cognitive subject/self, but just One whole non-differentiated experience of vibration... Which means, there is no body, nor pillow nor sound nor the door... just that pure experience of vibration.
Everything becomes 'deconstructed' and disintegrates into the basic pure experience of 'One Taste'. As ChNNR said, 'Although there is, on the one hand, still the manifestation of the play of energy which, in the dualistic state, we take for objects, and, on the other hand, the cognitive capacity that in the dualistic state we take for a separate subjective self, because of the uninterrupted presence of contemplation we no longer experience the illusion of a dualism between one and the other.'
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/05/different-degrees-of-non-duality.html
Thsuness says: "4. Only one tremendous spontaneous clarity flows, there is no differentiation between what that spins the earth or what that pumps your heart beats or what that makes the plants grow. When you eat an apple, it is the entire universe that eats the apple. Just one whole clarity spontaneity flow. Continual experience of transcendence joy and bliss."
(11:20 PM) Thusness: the entire physical processes are just conditions
(11:20 PM) AEN: oic ya
(11:20 PM) Thusness: and Awareness is not a behind reality
(11:21 PM) Thusness: the nature of Awareness is empty
(11:21 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:21 PM) Thusness: they are one
(11:21 PM) Thusness: just like u cannot define the boundaries when granted microscopic eyesights
(11:21 PM) Thusness: u cannot separate awareness from conditions
(11:22 PM) Thusness: and an arising of phenomena is a oneness experienced distorted
(11:22 PM) Thusness: non-dual experience eliminate the object-subject split
(11:23 PM) Thusness: but one is still unable to leap completely into oneness as we are unable to 'fuse' this formlessness and form into one whole oneness
(11:24 PM) Thusness: this is the understanding at the intellectual level
(11:24 PM) AEN: oneness as in non separation of phenomena into this and that?
(11:24 PM) Thusness: yes
(11:24 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:25 PM) Thusness: in actual experience, it is always non-dual subject-object is always one.
(11:25 PM) Thusness: if 'impersonality' is correctly experienced after non-dual, all experiences become one
(11:25 PM) Thusness: someone open the door
(11:25 PM) Thusness: there is sound, vibration
(11:25 PM) Thusness: the bed
(11:26 PM) Thusness: the body
(11:26 PM) Thusness: the pillow
(11:26 PM) Thusness: all is One whole experience of vibration
(11:26 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:26 PM) Thusness: there is no body, nor pillow nor sound nor the door...just that pure experience of vibration
(11:27 PM) Thusness: crystal clear
(11:27 PM) AEN: is it like the deconstruction longchen said?
(11:27 PM) Thusness: yes
(11:27 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:27 PM) Thusness: get it?
(11:27 PM) AEN: tink so
(11:27 PM) Thusness: like the universe eats an apple.
(11:27 PM) Thusness: it is the depth and degree of this experience
(11:28 PM) Thusness: whenever the sense of self arises, there is no totality of experience
(11:28 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:28 PM) Thusness: so u know how to incorporate ur understanding of non-dual, emptiness
(11:29 PM) Thusness: and see what is 'middle'
(11:29 PM) Thusness: with the introduction of emptiness nature
(11:29 PM) Thusness: as in the case of Advaita and Science
(11:30 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:34 PM) Thusness: what is the form?
(11:34 PM) Thusness: which and what form we are toking about?
(11:35 PM) Thusness: at human level with the limitation of senses and body, the entire universe is conditioned according our limitation of senses.
(11:35 PM) Thusness: like the eyesights i gave u
(11:36 PM) AEN: oic yea
(11:36 PM) Thusness: what i want is to refine ur understanding on the idea of 'illusion'
(11:36 PM) Thusness: but the appearance in terms of Presence is as real as it can be.
(11:36 PM) AEN: oic..
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More on appearances as luminous emptiness inseparable:
http://www.ktgrinpoche.org/guru_rinpoche.html
...What appears to the eyes are forms, which are made up of shapes and colors. Everything that is a shape and color is included in the source of consciousness (Sanskrit: ayatana) that is called form. The shapes and colors that appear to the eyes are found in all of the aspects of the environment in which we live, as well as in all of the sentient beings who inhabit this environment. What is the true nature of the appearances of shapes and colors of the environment and sentient beings? It is that they are dependently arisen mere appearances, which do not exist in essence. The forms that appear do not truly exist. In the abiding nature of reality, their nature is emptiness. They appear while being empty; while empty, they appear. They are appearance-emptiness like rainbows, water-moons, and reflections. All of the objects that appear to the eyes are appearance-emptiness undifferentiable...
...In our waking life, even though the environment and sentient beings appear to us, the supplication says "let them rest where no self's found." The environment and sentient beings appear, but let them rest without clinging to them as truly existent. Let them rest in their natural state of appearance-emptiness without fixating on them as being real. When we let the appearances rest without fixating on them as being real, all of the thoughts of there being an actual object out there to perceive and an actual distinct subject perceiving it just dissolve. The thoughts that take the duality of perceived object and perceiving subject to be real dissolve. They are purified.
When that happens, everything shines as luminous emptiness, clarity-emptiness. At this point, you are ready to meditate on the deity, because the deity's enlightened body is also appearance-emptiness. It appears while it is empty; it is empty while it appears—it is like a rainbow. When you meditate on the deity, everything appears as the body of the deity—appearance-emptiness.... -
I think I got my answer already... Thanks...Originally posted by An Eternal Now:So.. there you got your explanation in my reply to AndrewPKYap above