Right understanding on sexual misconduct
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Hi,Originally posted by Spnw07:True, I heard of the above advice from Buddhist scholars and Sangha members as well.
However, the difficult part is, how can I, as a beginner Buddhist, know exactly, what are right causes and conditions to change the person concerned? I know I have to do it gradually, constantly improving on my conduct and knowledge of the dharma as a Buddhist, but still it sounds like....
Well, no choice but to try harder loh. haha.
Personally I could infuse conventional method ( the methods that are widely available in self-help or using my common sense ) and Dharma ( depends on my level of understanding ) to help someone.
There are Dharma talk that specifically cater to the problem! For example: You can try wiki Ajahn Brahm's Dharma and his talks are readily available online. Read more Dharma books and attend more Dharma talks.. then your wisdom will increase as you start to acquire right view in the noble eightfold path.
You want to help someone but first you must be wise. -
ahh i face the same problems too. . regarding my parentsOriginally posted by Spnw07:I agree. But what if it's your sibling, your close relative or even your parents?
Can you afford to leave it as it is? Telling yourself that 'out of sight, out of mind'? Or adopting a self-righteous attitude that I have advised him/her for more than 3 times, or more than X number of years to seek help for his/her addiction (even if it's just a short period since he/she started), therefore it's ok for me not to bothered with the person anymore.
I don't know how much to care, and when to care as a person, or a buddhist.
Do anyone of you think it is advisable to employ some force to make the person concerned comply? Or some threats of certain restrictions?
Quoted: Can you afford to leave it as it is ? -> Are u having attachment or having compassionate or a mixture of both ? I find questioning my intention quite useful: For example, i could ask myself am i doing it out of my ego, out of my sense of self-righteous or out of angry etc ? If it is unwholesome intention and could lead to suffering, i could not carry it out.
We tried our best to help someone but sometime, the conditions for them to change isn't there. They could be attached to their own views which is why they do not want to listen to your advices.
mm i wonder if you realize that it is through such problem in life that offer us a chance learn to care and not to care....
Cheers..
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You can lead a horse to the water but you cannot force it to drink... but when it is thirsty, it will ask you for a drink and that is when you having a drink or knowing where the horse can get a drink comes in useful....
But you must own the drink (better) or know where to get a drink first (they might not believe you). -
Thanks for recommending me on Ajahn Brahm. will go take a look when free. I agree I have to be wise in order to help someone, but on the other help, I hope I can still do something to help others with whatever limited wisdom or common sense I have now.Originally posted by Isis:Hi,
Personally I could infuse conventional method ( the methods that are widely available in self-help or using my common sense ) and Dharma ( depends on my level of understanding ) to help someone.
There are Dharma talk that specifically cater to the problem! For example: You can try wiki Ajahn Brahm's Dharma and his talks are readily available online. Read more Dharma books and attend more Dharma talks.. then your wisdom will increase as you start to acquire right view in the noble eightfold path.
You want to help someone but first you must be wise. -
What if it's a mixture of attachment and compassionate? What should I do? What if it's attachment but we do not know that it is?Originally posted by Isis:ahh i face the same problems too. . regarding my parents
Quoted: Can you afford to leave it as it is ? -> Are u having attachment or having compassionate or a mixture of both ? I find questioning my intention quite useful: For example, i could ask myself am i doing it out of my ego, out of my sense of self-righteous or out of angry etc ? If it is unwholesome intention and could lead to suffering, i could not carry it out.
We tried our best to help someone but sometime, the conditions for them to change isn't there. They could be attached to their own views which is why they do not want to listen to your advices.
mm i wonder if you realize that it is through such problem in life that offer us a chance learn to care and not to care....
Cheers..
I'm afraid that people might assume they're wise enough to judge whether the conditions for them to help someone is ripe or not, hence either helping all the way or stopping half the way.... -
Agree.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:You can lead a horse to the water but you cannot force it to drink... but when it is thirsty, it will ask you for a drink and that is when you having a drink or knowing where the horse can get a drink comes in useful....
But you must own the drink (better) or know where to get a drink first (they might not believe you). -
Yah, in this case, very headache !Originally posted by Spnw07:I agree. But what if it's your sibling, your close relative or even your parents?
Can you afford to leave it as it is? Telling yourself that 'out of sight, out of mind'? Or adopting a self-righteous attitude that I have advised him/her for more than 3 times, or more than X number of years to seek help for his/her addiction (even if it's just a short period since he/she started), therefore it's ok for me not to bothered with the person anymore.
I don't know how much to care, and when to care as a person, or a buddhist.
Do anyone of you think it is advisable to employ some force to make the person concerned comply? Or some threats of certain restrictions?
I mean, when it comes to our own family members, the attachment is definitely there. We just want to" fix the problem "no matter what. In fact most probably we wld hope for a quick- fix if there's any. And this is exactly where we might go to the wrong path.
There's no quick- fix soln in life. But it doesn't mean there's no soln at all. Just that it takes time.
My method is to first tell the person the effects of his actions( not neccessary mention the Dharma, although the theories may comes fr Dharma, as he may reject it outright), n if he seems to agree then I think the war is half won. The rest will be his own decisions n choices, all we can do is to observe quiety n press the emergency button again when he stray.
But in the case where he simply refuses to listen, then just let it be for the moment. Not abandon, but to just step aside. Becos to him, his actions is not a problem at all, we may be his problem!
So in this case, i wld just let him continues his lifestyle( of cos provided no humans, animals, or properties r harmed
), n just wait for the efects to manifest one day. Then it may be possible for him to seek help n we can approach him again. Yes, it may happens in days, mths, yrs, but it wld happen. And yes, it may unfortunately happen when we r long gone, but it will happen; n he will finally learn the lesson, albeit a little too late perhaps. No matter what, we shouldn't be too hard on ourselves in wanting to offer help. We help when we can, we stop when we've reached our limits.; then step aside, come back later n see wat happens. Things may hv changed, situations may hv change, n there may be new soln.
This is wat IsIs mentioned, that sometimes we hv to wait for the conditions to be ready for actons to be taken; or AndrewYap's "theory of the thirsty horse". -
A simple rule of the thumb wld be to help when u think u can, stop when u think u hv done all u can. And to observe the person u were trying to help, is he irritated by u? If yes, then stop. Observe quiety, comes back to him next time when he's willing to accept ur help, or in trouble.Originally posted by Spnw07:What if it's a mixture of attachment and compassionate? What should I do? What if it's attachment but we do not know that it is?
I'm afraid that people might assume they're wise enough to judge whether the conditions for them to help someone is ripe or not, hence either helping all the way or stopping half the way.... -
We don't have to care which realm it comes from as long as it is natural.Originally posted by bohiruci:i have never mentioned in the posting that normal sex will not ...in fact the problem is worst , cause it will lead to more problem, family quarrel , accidents on the road , tension among friends and finally isolation
3 evil realm spirit ... read carefully -
Masturbation is a natural part of human physiology, even infants do masturbate.Originally posted by bohiruci:i have never mentioned in the posting that normal sex will not ...in fact the problem is worst , cause it will lead to more problem, family quarrel , accidents on the road , tension among friends and finally isolation
3 evil realm spirit ... read carefully -
There is the wise way mention by cycle.Originally posted by cycle:A simple rule of the thumb wld be to help when u think u can, stop when u think u hv done all u can. And to observe the person u were trying to help, is he irritated by u? If yes, then stop. Observe quiety, comes back to him next time when he's willing to accept ur help, or in trouble. Observe the situation if it creates suffering/unhappiness or so for both you and him, then perhaps your method is not good enough.
I could like to add another analogy: One day, father and son tried to push a stubborn mule away from the post but it just refused to budge. A moment later, a mid-wife pass by and and she saw what the father and son are doing. The mid-wife reaches out a carrot from her basket and lure the mule to walk out of where it was.
Morale of the story : Think of the person's interest and work from there.
I think it is not wise to interference with someone who isn't keen even if your intention is based on good-will. It is his karma and he needs to sort it out himself. We can only help in little ways we can.
There is a limitation in how much we can help someone even for our family members. Moderation/aka the middle way is to be observed here. -
Hmm, quite true and wise advice from isis and cycle, and not forgetting most of you here too.
Sometimes, I wish I am the Buddha liao. Fully awakened wisdom and compassion, so can help people and myself at the same time and not having to worry whether my approach is not suitable for a particular individual. -
Just worried/concerned about the huge influence of mass media on spreading wrong concepts of human sexuality, where everyone champions his/her own sexual freedom and ideals.
I dread to see the day where humans become animals not just in eating each literally, but having sex indiscriminately like animals.
We already read about real-life news of biological fathers raping their own daughters.
Global climate change, worldwide disasters (famine, floods and drought mainly) and lastly, messy human moral values...
Aaargh, I hope that more Bodhisattvas come down as humans to help all of us...
Don't wait till Maitreya Buddha comes..that will be 76 billion years later!!! -
not 76 billion years.. 5.67 billion years.Originally posted by Spnw07:Just worried/concerned about the huge influence of mass media on spreading wrong concepts of human sexuality, where everyone champions his/her own sexual freedom and ideals.
I dread to see the day where humans become animals not just in eating each literally, but having sex indiscriminately like animals.
We already read about real-life news of biological fathers raping their own daughters.
Global climate change, worldwide disasters (famine, floods and drought mainly) and lastly, messy human moral values...
Aaargh, I hope that more Bodhisattvas come down as humans to help all of us...
Don't wait till Maitreya Buddha comes..that will be 76 billion years later!!!
Actually nowadays got many Bodhisattvas around.. If you practice you will eventually also become a Bodhisattva.
But bo pian, cos humanity is undergoing a degeneration phase.
See: When will it be the "End of the World"? -
100 years is enough to see lots of changes to humanity, so one cannot imagine how it would be like a billion years later. Thanks for correcting me on that.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:not 76 billion years.. 5.67 billion years.
Actually nowadays got many Bodhisattvas around.. If you practice you will eventually also become a Bodhisattva.
But bo pian, cos humanity is undergoing a degeneration phase.
See: When will it be the "End of the World"?
Wait till I become non-regressive Bodhisattva then can count one. And by that time, don't know how many humans would have gone to the wu jian di yu and Abyss during this time of widespread corruption of the mind and heart.
And in between, I would have had innumerable rebirths in the 3 evil realms for mistakes in the present life and countless previous lives.
Thinking of that makes me feel very hopeless... -
People are suffering due to their ignorance. Some are not aware of the a thing call Karma. We ( i think i am too... ) are one of the ignorance beings. We created bad karma everyday life by being angry, getting angry with someone; and live our life in a daze and suddenly... we died..
It is very rare to be reborn as human with the right karmic condition to learn Dharma. Imagine you are born in a poor country with no Buddhist temple.....
"Hard is birth as a human being,
hard is the life of mortals.
Hard is the hearing of the sublime truth,
hard is the appearance of the Buddhas.” (Dhp v 182)
Human rebirth is difficult to obtain, and easy to lose. Though life is extremely precious and fragile, most people indulge in pleasures, completely heedless of their impending death, and pay little attention to the Dhamma. Many know nothing about Buddhism. Even among Buddhists, ignorance of the true Dhamma is widespread, and most just follow traditional customs.
My one cent. -
Originally posted by Isis:
Ritualization and adherence to concepts like rebirth and karma makes Buddhism very hard to follow.
People are suffering due to their ignorance. Some are not aware of the a thing call Karma. We ( i think i am too... ) are one of the ignorance beings. We created bad karma everyday life by being angry, getting angry with someone; and live our life in a daze and suddenly... we died..
It is very rare to be reborn as human with the right karmic condition to learn Dharma. Imagine you are born in a poor country with no Buddhist temple.....
[b] "Hard is birth as a human being,
hard is the life of mortals.
Hard is the hearing of the sublime truth,
hard is the appearance of the Buddhas.” (Dhp v 182)
Human rebirth is difficult to obtain, and easy to lose. Though life is extremely precious and fragile, most people indulge in pleasures, completely heedless of their impending death, and pay little attention to the Dhamma. Many know nothing about Buddhism. Even among Buddhists, ignorance of the true Dhamma is widespread, and most just follow traditional customs.
My one cent.[/b] -
Not true.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Ritualization and adherence to concepts like rebirth and karma makes Buddhism very hard to follow.
And, there is no ritualization. -
Then why chant? This I got to ask the Pureland dicipline Buddhist who chants to go to Amida Pureland after death. Isn't it ritualization? For the zazen practioner, why sit in lotus position and meditate? Can't a person meditate standing or squating? Why recite the scriptures in arachic terms which no one in the present understands with ease? AEN, for a person who calls me dogmatic, you are the truly dogmatic one.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Not true.
And, there is no ritualization. -
X2Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:This thread is an eye-opener... there are still many "believers" in Buddhism rather than thinkers... hmmmmmm.......
I would think that Buddhism at the apex is a system to teach people how to think, how to see reality for what it is rather than a belief system...
Beliefs are for beginners.... -
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
Chanting is not a ritual but a practice and a meditative technique. It helps to develope one pointedness and samadhi.
Then why chant? This I got to ask the Pureland dicipline Buddhist who chants to go to Amida Pureland after death. Isn't it ritualization? For the zazen practioner, why sit in lotus position and meditate? Can't a person meditate standing or squating? Why recite the scriptures in arachic terms which no one in the present understands with ease?
Lotus position is a yogic position that is very helpful in stabilising your mind and body -- if you practice yoga you will know that different bodily positions can have very different effects on your mental states, and also affects your meditative experience.
And btw, you can meditate while standing. This is called 'walking meditation', and I think is also as important as sitting. Furthermore, we must integrate our meditative state in our daily activities as much as possible as Buddhism is not just about sitting but living fully.
Next, I do not know the reason for chanting in 'archaic terms', but the language that I chant is Chinese, and I can understand what I am chanting. I think that is most important.
Like I just told a forummer --
"so my master say b4... chanting sutra is good but not as good as understanding sutra, but understanding sutra is not as good as practicing/'xing' the sutra, and that is still not as good as 'zheng'/realise/attain the essence of the sutra
so we shldnt just chant and chant... we must understand but not just understand theoretically
most impt is we must practice accordingly, and then realise the truth for ourselves"AEN, for a person who calls me dogmatic, you are the truly dogmatic one.
Nope. I understand completely that I am saying.
On the other hand, all that you have said simply shows your ignorance of the subject, as shown above.
Update: and ignorance of subjects (i.e. meditation) is ok, but the worse thing is when you are completely ignorant of it, you think you know.