Gray ethical and karmic issues
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http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=289513
This thread in the Chit-chat forum got me thinking. Paul Tibbets has no doubtedly killed many people by dropping the A bomb in Japan, but his action has (arguably) also brought the war to an early end and saved many more lives, both Japanese and Allied.
What then would his karmic consequence be? -
He lived so old then passed away
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When the atomic bomb goes off he too receives a dose of the deadly radiation from it
Last time the plane use propeller fans so could'nt fly so fast out of the blast's radiation area
He mentioned he sleeps soundly after killing so many people after dropping the atomic bomb so really wonders
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Hm. the only reason why i think he sleeps soundly after killing so many people is because of his intention- He feels it is the right thing to do at there point of time.Originally posted by maggot:He lived so old then passed away
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When the atomic bomb goes off he too receives a dose of the deadly radiation from it
Last time the plane use propeller fans so could'nt fly so fast out of the blast's radiation area
He mentioned he sleeps soundly after killing so many people after dropping the atomic bomb so really wonders
However, i do feel that he does feel some remorse for what he is doing but accept it as part of his military duties too..
just my guess. -
I guess then there will be karma for two sides -- killing the Japanese civilians, and also saving for saving the lives that will be lost if this bomb wasn't dropped.
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Stop making excuses.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I guess then there will be karma for two sides -- killing the Japanese civilians, and also saving for saving the lives that will be lost if this bomb wasn't dropped. -
AEN just quit answering my statements.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Stop making excuses. -
Making excuses for what? That's not an excuse.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Stop making excuses. -
I didn't see your post and frankly I don't find them important.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:AEN just quit answering my statements. -
About the karma involved in Hiroshima and Nagasaki A-bombings.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Making excuses for what? That's not an excuse.
There is no or negliable karma involved. Go figure. -
I think that's one of the problem I have with Buddhism. In life there's actually much grey areas everywhere, but we may not have the wisdom to know what kind of decision we should make. Buddhism don't really make life easier for me when the time to make such tough decision comes up.Originally posted by Beyond Religion:http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=289513
This thread in the Chit-chat forum got me thinking. Paul Tibbets has no doubtedly killed many people by dropping the A bomb in Japan, but his action has (arguably) also brought the war to an early end and saved many more lives, both Japanese and Allied.
What then would his karmic consequence be?
Killing a few people to save more people. I think a truely compassionate person would not bother about what karma he/she will receive for killing that few people so that more people can be save. Even if that person is to enter hell for such an action, I think a truly compassionate person would not mind.
But what about just war in general? If your country is attack, do you kill your 'enemies' so that you can save your own people? If your country is the attacker, would you obey the authorities and enter the battlefield? Or will you kill yourself so that you will not have to kill others (and thereby saving their lifes), neither would the authorities have to kill you for 'treason' (thus saving them from hell)? Or will you assasinate the authority so that your country's aggression can be prevented?
I have many more questions like this, but it seems that all that the Buddhist can tell me to do is to 'use my wisdom' and 'follow my heart'. Well... -
Isn't there karma for everything you do? It's like pouring a bucket of salt into the ocean. The 'good' karma may dilute the 'bad' karma, but nevertheless the karma is still there. Am I wrong to say that there is karma involved for every action?Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:About the karma involved in Hiroshima and Nagasaki A-bombings.
There is no or negliable karma involved. Go figure. -
Just to add on:
According to Buddhism, there are five orders or processes (niyama) which operate in the physical and mental realms.
They are:
1. Utu Niyama - physical inorganic order, e.g. seasonal phenomena of winds and rains. The unerring order of seasons, characteristic seasonal changes and events, causes of winds and rains, nature of heat, etc., all belong to this group.
2. Bija Niyama - order of germs and seeds (physical organic order), e.g. rice produced from rice-seed, sugary taste from sugar-cane or honey, peculiar characteristics of certain fruits, etc. The scientific theory of cells and genes and the physical similarity of twins may be ascribed to this order.
3. Karma Niyama - order of act and result, e.g., desirable and undesirable acts produce corresponding good and bad results. As surely as water seeks its own level so does Karma, given opportunity, produce its inevitable result, not in the form of a reward or punishment but as an innate sequence. This sequence of deed and effect is as natural and necessary as the way of the sun and the moon.
4. Dhamma Niyama - order of the norm, e.g., the natural phenomena occurring at the advent of a Bodhisattva in his last birth. Gravitation and other similar laws of nature. The natural reason for being good and so forth, may be included in this group.
5. Citta Niyama - order or mind or psychic law, e.g., processes of consciousness, arising and perishing of consciousness, constituents of consciousness, power of mind, etc., including telepathy, telaesthesia, retro-cognition, premonition, clairvoyance, clairaudience, thought-reading and such other psychic phenomena which are inexplicable to modern science.
Every mental or physical phenomenon could be explained by these all-embracing five orders or processes which are laws in themselves.
Karma as such is only one of these five orders.
Like all other natural laws they demand no lawgiver. -
I believe there is karma involved, but anyway, I do not know karma enough to comment. The intention behind the doing is also impt. If the intention is to save lives, it might be less serious, but nevertheless lots of innocent civilians are still killed (and also saved).Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:About the karma involved in Hiroshima and Nagasaki A-bombings.
There is no or negliable karma involved. Go figure. -
Hi, Karma does not just involved physical action.Originally posted by mahawarrior:Isn't there karma for everything you do? It's like pouring a bucket of salt into the ocean. The 'good' karma may dilute the 'bad' karma, but nevertheless the karma is still there. Am I wrong to say that there is karma involved for every action?
It also involves "thought, speech and deeds."...
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/karma.htm
The Pali term Karma literally means action or doing.
Any kind of intentional action whether mental, verbal, or physical, is regarded as Karma. It covers all that is included in the phrase "thought, word and deed". Generally speaking, all good and bad action constitutes Karma. In its ultimate sense Karma means all moral and immoral volition.
Involuntary, unintentional or unconscious actions, though technically deeds, do not constitute Karma, because volition, the most important factor in determining Karma, is absent.
Meaning of Volition: act of willing. -
In Buddhism, we are allowed to fight to defend our country (but not for aggression and conquering) and it is what we should do I believe, to pay gratitude to our nation. (There are four gratitudes one of which is of the Nation)Originally posted by mahawarrior:I think that's one of the problem I have with Buddhism. In life there's actually much grey areas everywhere, but we may not have the wisdom to know what kind of decision we should make. Buddhism don't really make life easier for me when the time to make such tough decision comes up.
Killing a few people to save more people. I think a truely compassionate person would not bother about what karma he/she will receive for killing that few people so that more people can be save. Even if that person is to enter hell for such an action, I think a truly compassionate person would not mind.
But what about just war in general? If your country is attack, do you kill your 'enemies' so that you can save your own people? If your country is the attacker, would you obey the authorities and enter the battlefield? Or will you kill yourself so that you will not have to kill others (and thereby saving their lifes), neither would the authorities have to kill you for 'treason' (thus saving them from hell)? Or will you assasinate the authority so that your country's aggression can be prevented?
I have many more questions like this, but it seems that all that the Buddhist can tell me to do is to 'use my wisdom' and 'follow my heart'. Well... -
A wealthy merchant, who was a disciple of the Buddha, went with a very large caravan of other merchants and his servants to a certain island, to bring back for trade some of the gem stones for which this island was famous. On board ship, on the way back, the marchant learned that another passenger on the boat intended to kill all the hundreds of people on board, in order to be able to steal the cargo of jewels.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:The intention behind the doing is also impt. If the intention is to save lives, it might be less serious
The merchant knew the man, and knew that he was indeed capable of killing all those people, and he wondered what to do about it. In the end, despite the fact that he had taken a vow with the Buddha never to take the life of another being, he had no alternative but to kill the would-be robber.
He was very ashamed of what he had done, and as soon as he returned home he went to the Buddha to confess his bad action. But the Buddha told him he had not done wrong, because his intention had not been to take life, but to save life. Furthermore, since he had in fact saved the lives of hundreds of people, and had saved the robber from the very negative karma of killing hundreds of people and the inevitable consequneces of such a bad action, the Buddha explained that the merchant had in fact done a good action.
~ Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche -
X2Originally posted by An Eternal Now:A wealthy merchant, who was a disciple of the Buddha, went with a very large caravan of other merchants and his servants to a certain island, to bring back for trade some of the gem stones for which this island was famous. On board ship, on the way back, the marchant learned that another passenger on the boat intended to kill all the hundreds of people on board, in order to be able to steal the cargo of jewels.
The merchant knew the man, and knew that he was indeed capable of killing all those people, and he wondered what to do about it. In the end, despite the fact that he had taken a vow with the Buddha never to take the life of another being, he had no alternative but to kill the would-be robber.
He was very ashamed of what he had done, and as soon as he returned home he went to the Buddha to confess his bad action. But the Buddha told him he had not done wrong, because his intention had not been to take life, but to save life. Furthermore, since he had in fact saved the lives of hundreds of people, and had saved the robber from the very negative karma of killing hundreds of people and the inevitable consequneces of such a bad action, the Buddha explained that the merchant had in fact done a good action.
~ Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
But I do believe that there will be karma involved for killing that one would-be-robber. Just that for saving a hundred people, the karma for killing one person is somehow 'diluted'?
Of course, the intention matters too. If you kill with hatred, then it's a different story altogether? -
Yes, just that it is lesser... if I am right.Originally posted by mahawarrior:X2
But I do believe that there will be karma involved for killing that one would-be-robber. Just that for saving a hundred people, the karma for killing one person is somehow 'diluted'? -
Karma
Today I am going to talk about the Buddhist concept of karma. Karma is a Sanskrit word, which means action. Any action that is generated, or created from, our body, speech, or mind, definitely gives fruit or resolve in this lifetime or in next lifetime. So this is also the meaning, or definition, of Karma.
Primarily, there are three types of karma: 1) Positive karma, 2) negative karma, and 3) unmoving, or unchanging Karma.
Positive karma gives wholesome or positive or happy results and negative karma gives unwholesome or unhappy or undesirable results. Happiness cannot come from negative karma and unhappiness cannot come from positive karma. According to my understanding, even Catholicism presents the idea or concept of karma but not in detail like in Buddhism and Hinduism. For example, in the Bible, there are two statements: First, as you sow, so you reap, and second, one can understand the nature of seed and the tree from its fruit. This is very similar to the concept of Buddhist karma. The third type of karma, the unmoving or unchanging type of karma, is also a positive karma, but this karma can be only created or generated by certain practices of meditation. This karma will lead oneself to be reborn as celestial being.
Let's go back to negative and positive karma. Negative karma can be generated by performance of ten negative actions, such as killing, stealing, lying and so on. Positive karma can be created by engaging or cultivating the ten positive actions, like abstaining from killing stealing, lying and so on.
Within karma, there are two categories: a) Completed karma, and b) incomplete karma. The question is what makes the difference between complete and incomplete karma. There are some factors that have to come together to make a complete action or karma. When one or two of these factors are missing, then the action becomes incomplete. The complete action, or karma, produces very heavy, or serious, negative consequences. Whereas incomplete karma, produces light consequences.
The factors that are necessary to make complete karma are motivation, intention, effort (or attempt) and satisfaction. For example, killing: When these four factors are present at the time of the killing action then the action of killing becomes complete. When one or two factors are missing the karma is incomplete. If we carefully examine, most of our actions become complete because when we are engaging in any negative actions first we have a very strong motivation or desire to kill someone, and this thought or desire is influenced by attachment, hatred anger or jealousy; then we make some effort, or attempt to kill, such as buying weapons or poison; then, after we kill someone, we have a sense of satisfaction, joy, or contentment. This is how most of our negative action becomes complete, it is really hard to find, or see, that one of these factors are missing at the time we engage in certain negative actions, especially if we have hardly a sense of regret, right after killing or stealing, etc., instead there is joy or satisfaction.
The other side, positive karma, there are three or four factors that are necessary to make complete positive karma: 1) Proper motivation, 2) right thought, 3) right effort, and 4) satisfaction. If you carefully examine the way we are engaging in the positive actions or karma, most of our positive karma becomes incomplete because of lack of bringing these factors together. Proper motivation refers to motivation which is not influenced by a self-cherishing attitude, or material reward out of self interest. Right effort refers to effort that should be joyous. Once positive karma is created we immediately dedicate this positive action, or deed, for the welfare of every sentient being, without expectations of self interest. If we think in this way , most of our positive karma, becomes complete.
Now IÂ’ll discuss the fruits of karma. Each karma brings forth four different results: 1) Maturation result, 2) the result corresponding to its initial act, 3) the result corresponding to the initial experience, and 4) environmental results. For example the karma of killing, The maturation of killing karma is to be born as an unfortunate being such as a hell being, hungry ghost, or animal. The result corresponding to the initial act is to have short life, and frequent disease or illnesses. The result corresponding to the initial experience is to have mental impulses or a propensity to joy, pleasure or delight in killing. The last one, environmental result, resolves that one has to face living in the place where destructive climate and natural disasters are. Here, the important thing to understand is, the second, the result corresponding initial act, act is the most serious result because one will not only suffer in the next lifetime but it will cause suffering in many, many lifetimes since we have the mental impulse to take pleasure in the action, and we repeat the same actions, thus leading to further undesirable consequences. Therefore, one should consciously try to abstain from repeating the same action by means of cutting these unhealthy mental impulses.
According to Buddhism, living in a sound, ethical way, restraining from the ten negative actions, and cultivating the ten positive actions, is the healthiest way of living. This is we call living with spiritual discipline, or law. One becomes oneÂ’s own policeman.
Karma can be further divided into additional categories: Propelling karma, and completing karma. Every karma comes under these two categories. Propelling karma refers to karma that propels existence. Completing karma refers to karma that brings different conditions (desirable or undesirable), in oneÂ’s lifetime. Let me clarify about these two karmas, what it exactly means. For example: For someone born as human it could be possible that he or she faces very undesirable circumstances and conditions in this lifetime, such as poverty, poor health, loneliness, hearing unpleasant words and groundless rumors about oneself, and so on. These circumstances are said to be the results of completing karma. Also, someone born as a human in fortunate circumstances such as good health, wealth, power, fame, having good friends and a faithful, pleasant partner, praised by everybody, infantile, attractive, generous, and successful in every step is considered to be the results of completing karma. These conditions can be clearly seen in our human society.
If we are lacking in understanding of these degrees of karma and their consequences then we are confused when we see others with more fortunate circumstances and successes. If we see something we are lacking then there is a danger of having self hatred, and depression that may lead us to suicidal thoughts, jealousy and so on, which is again very destructive. Gaining a proofed and stable understanding of karma its effects and results can help protect us from confusion and mentally one can live undisturbed, calmly and peacefully.
By Gesha La
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http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhism/A%20-%20Tibetan%20Buddhism/Authors/Geshe%20Dakpa%20Topgyal/On%20Karma/Charleston%20Tibetan%20Society%20-%20Karma.htm -
I remember he was reported saying how eager he was on the mission( as it was a real test on how powerful or destructive the A Bomb really is on real situaltion wif real people, not just a experitment on some deserted island anymore) and how elated he was when he saw the " spectacular" ( or something like that, anyway he was quite happy over the sight) A Bomb mushrooms. I think if he really felt that way, then i'm afraid he wld hv to meet his bad karma eventually. His intentions was unwholesome. Who knows, he may be re-born in a war-torn country now.Originally posted by Beyond Religion:http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=289513
This thread in the Chit-chat forum got me thinking. Paul Tibbets has no doubtedly killed many people by dropping the A bomb in Japan, but his action has (arguably) also brought the war to an early end and saved many more lives, both Japanese and Allied.
What then would his karmic consequence be?
Long ago, when I was a teenager, I also felt that america saved us fr Japan's atrocities by dropping the A Bomb on japan; but the facts was Japan at that time was already weak n dying on themselves, they couldn't hold on any longer. America's actions was simply unnecessary. It was like they were looking for a place to show n test their new weapon n Japan was a good choice.
I visited the Nuclear war museum in Nagasaki a few years back, n left with a heavy heart. War is bad, no matter what reasons one try to justify it with.
It was unfortunate that the world was in a collective karma then. -
If our country is under attack in a war, as citiczens we must fight back to proctect our people n land. If our country is the attacker, then I think we sld voice our concerns or rebuttals to advert such war. And if we r citizens of a tyranny government, which is most unfortunate, then we shld try to let the world know such situation so as to help our countymen fr futher sufferings.Originally posted by mahawarrior:I think that's one of the problem I have with Buddhism. In life there's actually much grey areas everywhere, but we may not have the wisdom to know what kind of decision we should make. Buddhism don't really make life easier for me when the time to make such tough decision comes up.
Killing a few people to save more people. I think a truely compassionate person would not bother about what karma he/she will receive for killing that few people so that more people can be save. Even if that person is to enter hell for such an action, I think a truly compassionate person would not mind.
But what about just war in general? If your country is attack, do you kill your 'enemies' so that you can save your own people? If your country is the attacker, would you obey the authorities and enter the battlefield? Or will you kill yourself so that you will not have to kill others (and thereby saving their lifes), neither would the authorities have to kill you for 'treason' (thus saving them from hell)? Or will you assasinate the authority so that your country's aggression can be prevented?
I have many more questions like this, but it seems that all that the Buddhist can tell me to do is to 'use my wisdom' and 'follow my heart'. Well...
To "use wisdom' n " to follow the heart" finally comprises a basic direction, that is to always see what is the motive of your actions, n the outcome of such actions. Of cos it is not easy for most people like us who are defiled, or most young ppl like you as life experiences are limited. But doesn't mean this is the "fault' or limitations of Buddhism. It may only shows that our understanding of the Buddhadharma is limited n need futher guildence.
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apology for the intrusion... this is an interesting lesson... but this do draws a few questionOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:A wealthy merchant, who was a disciple of the Buddha, went with a very large caravan of other merchants and his servants to a certain island, to bring back for trade some of the gem stones for which this island was famous. On board ship, on the way back, the marchant learned that another passenger on the boat intended to kill all the hundreds of people on board, in order to be able to steal the cargo of jewels.
The merchant knew the man, and knew that he was indeed capable of killing all those people, and he wondered what to do about it. In the end, despite the fact that he had taken a vow with the Buddha never to take the life of another being, he had no alternative but to kill the would-be robber.
He was very ashamed of what he had done, and as soon as he returned home he went to the Buddha to confess his bad action. But the Buddha told him he had not done wrong, because his intention had not been to take life, but to save life. Furthermore, since he had in fact saved the lives of hundreds of people, and had saved the robber from the very negative karma of killing hundreds of people and the inevitable consequneces of such a bad action, the Buddha explained that the merchant had in fact done a good action.
~ Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
1) what if in the process of killing this one robber, he also kill ten other bystander?
2) what if after killing this one robber and the other ten bystander, he found that the gun (weapon) this robber is going to use only left with blanks or no bullets in them?
3) what if after killing this one robber and the other ten bystander, he found that the gun (weapon) this robber is going to use only left with blanks or no bullets in them, plus this one robber is not really a robber and the "plan" he learned of does not exist at all (hearsay only)?
what then would the outcome be?
just a thought..........
*edit: to add... this lesson a bit like the movie...Minority Report -
Hey vince69,Originally posted by vince69:apology for the intrusion... this is an interesting lesson... but this do draws a few question
1) what if in the process of killing this one robber, he also kill ten other bystander?
2) what if after killing this one robber and the other ten bystander, he found that the gun (weapon) this robber is going to use only left with blanks or no bullets in them?
3) what if after killing this one robber and the other ten bystander, he found that the gun (weapon) this robber is going to use only left with blanks or no bullets in them, plus this one robber is not really a robber and the "plan" he learned of does not exist at all (hearsay only)?
what then would the outcome be?
just a thought..........
*edit: to add... this lesson a bit like the movie...Minority Report
can you tell me when was gunpowder invented and the history of this story is far older than the invention of gunpowder unless the poor robber was fooling around with Indra's Thunder. -
It doesn't matter whether the gunpowder is invented that time or not.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Hey vince69,
can you tell me when was gunpowder invented and the history of this story is far older than the invention of gunpowder unless the poor robber was fooling around with Indra's Thunder.
To my understanding, what he trying to say is although the intention is good, but due to his ignorance, his action caused people to suffer more. -
Originally posted by justdoit77:It doesn't matter whether the gunpowder is invented that time or not.
To my understanding, what he trying to say is although the intention is good, but due to his ignorance, his action caused people to suffer more.
a Grey ethical and karmic issues
Grey in a sense that there are multiple way to see things, and can result in both rights and wrongs