dependent origination and middle way
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So the Middle Way is to cling to everything without clinging to everything or to cling to everything while clinging on to nothing...
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Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
haha...added information already. Middle Way is shhsss....(not a word to be spoken. )
So the Middle Way is to cling to everything without clinging to everything or to cling to everything while clinging on to nothing...
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You shouldnÂ’t assume that you understand everything there is to know. If you think you know everything already, then you havenÂ’t truly understood the Buddhadharma. ---Ven. Master Hsuan Hua
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another example of "treat everybody as if treating itself" which is also an act of spontaneity. like if the nose is itchy, the hand automatically go and scratch the nose so as to help ease the itchiness. spontaneity.
all part of Dharmakaya.
can we do this? people say something not nice to us only, the mind already filled with resentment liao. like the teeth bite the lip accidentally, lip got fight back the teeth? no what.
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As Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche used to say frequently " Form is Emptiness, we can just about get, ...Emptiness is Form takes a lifetime ".
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Originally posted by sinweiy:
oh, there is such a quote? In the other thread, I was telling AEN again and again that he is ignoring "Emptiness is Form".... and only concentrating on Form is Emptiness, and that is why he thinks reality is a ball of light...
As Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche used to say frequently " Form is Emptiness, we can just about get, ...[b]Emptiness is Form takes a lifetime ".
/\[/b] -
And as I replied, those who have true realisation and understand of what it means by "form is emptiness" also knows exactly what is meant by emptiness is form, as emptiness is the infinite potentiality of our intrinsic luminosity.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:oh, there is such a quote? In the other thread, I was telling AEN again and again that he is ignoring "Emptiness is Form".... and only concentrating on Form is Emptiness, and that is why he thinks reality is a ball of light...
Emptiness is in fact refering that All There Is is the crystal clear emphemeral phenomena all around due to dependent arising that is self-knowing. It is appearance-emptiness, luminosity-emptiness inseparable.
See: The nature of the separate self, duality (Page 5)
There is no such thing as a 'ball of light' apart from all conditions. Even the experience of Mind devoid of all gross objects and thoughts as infinite expanse and 'void' is merely a particular type of condition as well relating to the thought realm, commonly mistaken to be 'I AMness' (also see Thusness's first posts to your first topic in our forum -- be in touch with unseen nature - Andrew PK Yap which Thusness told you, "The pure sense of existence, that "I AM", though vividly clear relates only to the thought realm. This is what I can say for now. Happy journey.") which in fact is an aspect of our pristine awareness but not all of it. True nature is not just that.
Emptiness in Buddhism has nothing to do with that sort of 'void'.
Thusness has also often warned not to mistake a minor aspect of our pure luminosity as realising our true nature. The true nature of reality, is Emptiness. So, our true nature is only realised when we have an intuitive perception of the true reality of Emptiness as Dependent Arising (see http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html, last updated Today.) -- therefore 'Ming Xin' does not necessarily mean 'Jian Xing'.
Regarding this, the Dalai Lama also spoke about it before:
http://www.lamayeshe.com/otherteachers/hhdl/happinesskarma.shtml
...Through the gates of the five sense organs a being sees, hears, smells, tastes and comes into contact with a host of external forms, objects and impressions. Let the form, sound, smell, taste, touch and mental events which are the relations of the six senses be shut off. When this is done the recollection of past events on which the mind tends to dwell will be completely discontinued and the flow of memory cut off. Similarly, plans for the future and contemplation of future action must not be allowed to arise. It is necessary to create a space in place of all such processes of thought if one is to empty the mind of all such processes of thought. Freed from all these processes there will remain a pure, clean, distinct and quiescent mind. Now let us examine what sort of characteristics constitute the mind when it has attained this stage. We surely do possess some thing called mind, but how are we to recognize its existence? The real and essential mind is what is to be found when the entire load of gross obstructions and aberrations (i.e. sense impressions, memories, etc.) has been cleared away. Discerning this aspect of real mind, we shall discover that, unlike external objects, its true nature is devoid of form or color; nor can we find any basis of truth for such false and deceptive notions as that mind originated from this or that, or that it will move from here to there, or that it is located in such-and-such a place. When it comes into contact with no object mind is like a vast, boundless void, or like a serene, illimitable ocean. When it encounters an object it at once has cognizance of it, like a mirror instantly reflecting a person who stands in front of it. The true nature of mind consists not only in taking clear cognizance of the object but also in communicating a concrete experience of that object to the one experiencing it.* Normally, our forms of sense cognition, such as eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, etc., perform their functions on external phenomena in a manner involving gross distortion. Knowledge resulting from sense cognition, being based on gross external phenomena, is also of a gross nature. When this type of gross stimulation is shut out, and when concrete experiences and clear cognizance arise from within, mind assumes the characteristics of infinite void similar to the infinitude of space. But this void is not to be taken as the true nature of mind. We have become so habituated to consciousness of the form and color of gross objects that, when we make concentrated introspection into the nature of mind, it is, as I have said, found to be a vast, limitless void free from any gross obscurity or other hindrances. Nevertheless, this does not mean that we have discerned the subtle, true nature of the mind. What has been explained above concerns the state of mind in relation to the concrete experience and clear cognizance by the mind which are its function, but it describes only the relative nature of mind.
There are in addition several other aspects and states of mind. In other words, taking mind as the supreme basis, there are many attributes related to it. Just as an onion consists of layer upon layer that can be peeled away, so does every sort of object have a number of layers; and this is no less true of the nature of mind as explained here; it, too, has layer within layer, slate within state.
All compounded things are subject to disintegration. Since experience and knowledge are impermanent and subject to disintegration, the mind, of which they are functions (nature), is not something that remains constant and eternal. From moment to moment it undergoes change and disintegration. This transience of mind is one aspect of its nature. However, as we have observed, its true nature has many aspects, including consciousness of concrete experience and cognizance of objects. Now let us make a further examination in order to grasp the meaning of the subtle essence of such a mind. Mind came into existence because of its own cause. To deny that the origination of mind is dependent on a cause, or to say that it is a designation given as a means of recognizing the nature of mind aggregates, is not correct. With our superficial observance, mind, which has concrete experience and clear cognizance as its nature, appears to be a powerful, independent, subjective, completely ruling entity. However, deeper analysis will reveal that this mind, possessing as it does the function of experience and cognizance, is not a self-created entity but Is dependent on other factors for its existence. Hence it depends on something other than itself. This non-independent quality of the mind substance is its true nature which in turn is the ultimate reality of the self.
Of these two aspects, viz. the ultimate true nature of mind and a knowledge of that ultimate true nature, the former is the base, the latter an attribute. Mind (self) is the basis and all its different states are attributes. However, the basis and its attributes have from the first pertained to the same single essence. The non-self-created (depending on a cause other than itself) mind entity (basis) and its essence, sunyata, have unceasingly existed as the one, same, inseparable essence from beginningless beginning. The nature of sunyata pervades all elements. As we are now and since we cannot grasp or comprehend the indestructible, natural, ultimate reality (sunyata) of our own minds, we continue to commit errors and our defects persist.... -
quite well known actually.
three stages in awakening:
Seeing Mountain is mountain, water is water.
Seeing Mountain is not mountain, water is not water.
Seeing Mountain is still mountain, water is still water.
http://www.kwanumzen.com/primarypoint/v18n2-2000-summer-dssn-fourtimesfiveequalstwenty.html
normal people see for example mountain as mountain and don't normally care.
the scientists however examine the mountian in detail, like what molecule it consist, the atomic structure etcs...hence the mountain become Not a mountain.
we buddhists also do something similar in examining phenomona and find that it is empty of a self-nature. this is "Form is Emptiness".
as for Emptiness is Form, well it's associated with dependent origination, middle way, non-duality and Equanimity. one neither attached to form non attached to emptiness.
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Yes.
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html
Stage 6's Updated comments by Thusness:
With the willingness to let go of the ‘I’ and ‘Mine’, the ‘emptiness nature’ is clearly understood. Practice is neither going after the mirror nor escaping from the maya reflection; it is to clearly 'see' the 'nature' of reflection.
To see that there is really no mirror other than the ongoing reflection due to our emptiness nature. Neither is there a mirror to cling to as the background container nor a maya to escape from. Beyond these two extreme approaches lies the middle path -- the prajna wisdom of seeing that the maya is our Buddha nature. -
Ultimately in terms of non-duality it cannot be said that there is an unchanging mirror amidst changing objects. The analogy of the mirror is used in many ways that are helpful to describe our true condition, but I think we must have a clear understanding of its true meaning in order not to fall into the eternalists by seeking the mirror, thus separating transient phenomena from a clear mirror as a background.Originally posted by sinweiy:thing is...give up everything, Buddha gain/know everything. not easy to understand wan.
say like the mirror when not disturb, it don't think or react. when object go in front of mirror, mirror just reflect naturally. when object goes away, mirror return to not thinking state. did the mirror moved? what is moving is the object.
the teaching of Buddha simply flow from the non-thinking mind when reacting to conditions. what's thinking is the person asking Buddha. Buddha just reflect the prefect answer. it's spontaneous. when nobody ask, Buddha just return to the "not knowing" state. yeah, not just 'don't think', but 'don't know'.
'don't know' is know all.
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In Buddhism, it is not a mirror we seek, nor should we grasp on appearances. But we must realise that the essence of appearance is of the mirror, that transient phenomenon has always been the mirror (nondual) and all phenomenon is merely the play of dharma, and that its nature is empty. This is the 'middle way'.
As Thusness wrote in Stage 5 (also see his Stage 6 comments as I posted above), Updated comments: The drop is thorough, the center is gone. A more poetic expression would be sound hears, scenery sees, the dust is the mirror. Transient phenomenon itself has always been the mirror, complete in arising, self-liberates in its own accords.
There is no moving objects, only mere happenings due to dependent arising and is without any movement. The understanding of Dependent Arising must come with the understanding that each moment of arising appearance is Spontaneous, Complete-by-itself, Whole, and therefore Unconditioned.
And because all phenomena are dependently arisen, having no independent nature of its own separated from conditions, there is no graspable object (its nature is empty) that can exist in time... therefore there is only mere appearances due to dependent arising.
Movement is only due to the sense of a dualistic observer observing and measuring observed phenomena creating the sense of 'movement'. From experience as I wrote in http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=287232 when we drop the observer, we can move without movement, walk without walking. There is change, 'walking', but no sense of movement. No objects is moving. There is no 'objects' to begin with -- only Appearances, Conditions. There is only dependent arising, Conditions. Scenery, sound of airplane, pain of a headache, are all Conditions... but it is empty and has no movement. When there is conditions, there is arising.
As Thusness said, In Buddhism, there is no eternality, only timeless continuity (timeless as in vividness in present moment but change and continue like a wave pattern). There is no changing thing, only change.
In reality, nothing moves.
And I want to add on to my previous post to AndrewPKYap on what Thusness said months back in another forum:
It is odorless, formless, colorless, thoughtless and void of any attributes and we unknowingly objectified these attributes into an ‘entity’ and make it an eternal background or an emptiness void. When this is done, it prevents us from experiencing the color, texture, fabric and manifesting nature of awareness. Suddenly thoughts are being grouped into another category and disowned. In actual case, thoughts think and sound hears. The observer has always been the observed. In naked awareness, there is no splitting of attributes and objectification of these attributes into different groups of the same experience. So thoughts are not disowned and “impermanence nature” taken in wholeheartedly in the experience of no-self. ‘Impermanence’ is never what it seems to be, never what that is understood in conceptual thoughts. ‘Impermanence’ is not what the mind has conceptualized it to be. In non-dual experience, the true face of impermanence nature is experienced as happening without movement, change without going anywhere. This is the “what is” of impermanence. It is just so.
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Middle way is there is no clinger to cling on anything, nor is there in fact anything that can be grasped. Nor is there anyone who can let go of anything (both are self and other are empty).Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:So the Middle Way is to cling to everything without clinging to everything or to cling to everything while clinging on to nothing...
All there is is appearances arising, it is dependent arising and emptiness inseparable.
Clinging on is based on the illusion of duality (i.e 'I' am the 'owner' of 'my car'), and even if there is intentional letting go it is still the flip side of clinging on and is still trapped in conditions. It is not the realisation of self-liberation. To one who realises non duality, clinging on or letting go is out of the question.
But clinging still happens for us, due the condition of ignorance. -
Yes.Originally posted by sinweiy:thing is...give up everything, Buddha gain/know everything. not easy to understand wan.
say like the mirror when not disturb, it don't think or react. when object go in front of mirror, mirror just reflect naturally. when object goes away, mirror return to not thinking state. did the mirror moved? what is moving is the object.
the teaching of Buddha simply flow from the non-thinking mind when reacting to conditions. what's thinking is the person asking Buddha. Buddha just reflect the prefect answer. it's spontaneous. when nobody ask, Buddha just return to the "not knowing" state. yeah, not just 'don't think', but 'don't know'.
'don't know' is know all.
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Let's look at the word Heart in the title. As we have seen, the heart or essence of the Enlightened Way is not-knowing, which makes it possible for everything and anything to manifest. As soon as we know something, we prevent anything else from manifesting, form just popping up. As soon as we know something, we limit the thing we think we know. The state of not-knowing is everyone, everything, and anything, constantly manifesting, constantly popping up in accord with changes in time and situation. But if we live out of knowing, this endless manifestation of things, one after another, can't be experienced directly. We're blocked by our notions of what Should be happening and get upset because our expectations don't match the way things really are. When we let go of our expectations, we are with things as they are, and we realize the essence or heart of the Perfection of Great Wisdom Sutra.
~ Bernie Glassman, Infinite Circle (btw, Thusness recommends this book as very profound on the aspect of Nondual Action) -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
ya, it's unchanging. another mirror analogy:
Ultimately in terms of non-duality it cannot be said that there is an unchanging mirror amidst changing objects. The analogy of the mirror is used in many ways that are helpful to describe our true condition, but I think we must have a clear understanding of its true meaning in order not to fall into the eternalists by seeking the mirror, thus separating transient phenomena from a clear mirror as a background.
The monk asked: How can the eight consciousnesses be transformed into Fourfold Wisdom?
The master said: Just transform the first five consciousnesses into Perfecting Wisdom; turn the sixth consciousness into Wonderful-Observing Wisdom; turn the seventh consciousness into Equality-Nature Wisdom; and turn the eighth consciousness into Perfect-Great-Mirror Wisdom.
The monk asked: What is Perfect-Great-Mirror Wisdom?
The master said: It is True Mine's unchanging voidness and stillness that is like a bright mirror. The monk asked: What is Equality-Nature Wisdom?
The master said: It is the opposite of all Dharmas, for it is without any distinguishing characteristic whatsoever.
the monk asked: What is Wonderful-Observing Wisdom?
The master said: It is the interplay of all the sense organs in discriminating activity but without any defilement.
The monk asked: What is Perfecting Wisdom?
The master said: It is characterized by each of the five sense organs performing the functions of its opposite sense realms without distinguishing or discriminating.
http://www.purifymind.com/PraAttainEnlighten.htm
it's all about transforming than about getting rid.
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Shurangama Sutra:
“The nature of enlightenment is essentially bright. It is false
for you to make it bright enlightenment.
....
“Enlightenment is not something that needs to be made
bright, for once that is done, an object is established because of
this light. Once an object is falsely set up, you as a false subject
come into being.
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Now we are talking about bright enlightenment. The basic
substance of enlightenment is bright. Purna wants to add brightness
to enlightenment. But enlightenment is like a light which is already
on. If you flipped the switch, you have added something extra, and
in the process you have turned it off. Purna thought that if you
turned on the light it would get bright, and that before he flipped the
switch there was no light. But it was fundamentally unnecessary.
The fundamental substance of enlightenment is bright, with out
anything more having to be done to it. And that is where the
important point lies.
i like the analogy with the switch.
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It depends on what you mean by 'unchanging'. Our true nature is immovable, unborn and indestructible, but I wouldn't translate it to be 'unchanging' because then people will mistake our true nature to be an unchanging background amidst changing phenomena. This is not the correct understanding and becomes the understanding of the eternalist. But if the meaning is understood and one does not fall into duality, then 'unchanging' is just another word you may use to convey your message.
The term 'unchanging' may be valid as long as it is NOT understood be mean 'unchanging in oppose to changing phenomena', but rather it can be understood that 1) The luminosity and emptiness nature of our Buddha Nature will never be lost. 2) Our true nature is unborn and undying. 3) All is Mind-Only, nothing moves.
The true nature of all phenomena are also 'unborn and undying', and are also expression of luminosity-emptiness inseparable. When this is understood, our true nature cannot be said to be separated from changing phenomena. Our true nature cannot be separated from conditions. One of the important teachings of Zen Master Dogen is that 'Buddha Nature is Impermanence'. If I can find a good article to explain this, I will post it here.
As Thusness said, Pristine Awareness is the scenery, the sound, the sensations all around. Nothing apart from the crystal clear manifestation of appearances. Completely and fully real and gone. According to the Buddha there is no seeing apart from the seen, no seer exists. No hearing apart from the heard, no hearer exists. In short, there is no observer apart from the observed.
There is a chapter in Shurangama Sutra that Buddha is trying to tell Ananda not to take the mistaken notion of there being sound 'out there' or the notion of there having differing existences that 'arises and cease' out there to be our true nature. The notion of 'entities', 'sounds', etc, are concepts, and we must not mistaken the concept of a sound to be Hearing itself. The moment a sentient being projects what is heard and seen to be an objective reality, and grasp on the 'sound' though its ultimate reality is ungraspable and empty, he is going to see birth and death. (btw that is why 'don't-know' is important) In ultimate reality all phenomena has no objective reality because Mind is the basis of all Samsara and Nirvana.
In reality, our true nature is that all phenomena is Empty being merely expression of our 'hearing nature' that is unborn and unceasing, a.k.a our True Mind, that is luminous-emptiness inseperable. And appearances do not oppose our true nature -- appearances are all our Pristine Awareness, thus they do not have objective reality 'out there' -- they are dependent arising Conditions, and empty of inherent existence.
Sound (and all phenomena) is ultimately not an object, there is no objects out there that is 'changing' and that ultimately has 'birth and death', there is no sound 'out there' can be grasped. It is Mind-Only**! That is why the moment you think there is moving objects 'out there', you have imputed an objective reality to it -- that there is really a 'form' or 'sound' out there that exists that has birth and death, and you miss that it really is Mind-Only and ultimately empty. And as Heart Sutra has so clearly stated that its nature is empty, that there is ultimately there is "...no form, no feelings, no perceptions, no formations, no consciousness; no eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind; no color, no sound, no smell, no taste, no touch, no object of mind; no realm of eyes...until no realm of mind-consciousness; no ignorance and also no extinction of it...".
All is just mere appearances of dependent arising thus its nature is empty, and an expression of our Pristine Awareness. Our True Mind is Luminous-Emptiness inseparable. According to Venerable Buddhaghosa, No Watcher is needed, the process itself rolls and knows. In Mahayana, "what is" is our true mind/buddha nature/hearing nature/perceiving nature -- which means that the heard, the seen, the touched, etc.. all is IT i.e Manifestation is the Source.
As a Zen Master once said, "When I heard the temple bell ring, suddenly there was no bell and no I, just the ringing."
BUT nothing has truly moved, ultimately -- every arising appearance is spontaneous, 'discrete', complete in itself, Mind-Only. The moment you see movement, you have already fallen into duality. If all is Mind only, what moves?
The ringing is just appearance-emptiness inseparable, an expression of our True Mind.
The 'ringing' is already our Buddha Nature. Therefore there is no need to escape Maya in order to seek an eternal Source. What is needed is only in seeing the true nature of reality. (see the quote by Thusness below)
The problem is that when we shun the transience in order to seek an eternal background, in this process we create separation. In Buddhism our true nature cannot be separated from Conditions. And all dependent arising is empty, lacking substance, being mere dream-like appearances but a perfect expression of Dharmakaya***. Therefore our true nature is luminosity-emptiness inseperable. All is ultimately of the Unborn nature (see next post).
We should therefore not resort to seeking any background mirror nor is there any maya to be escaped from -- but to realise the nondual and emptiness nature of reality.
Thusness: With the willingness to let go of the ‘I’ and ‘Mine’, the ‘emptiness nature’ is clearly understood. Practice is neither going after the mirror nor escaping from the maya reflection; it is to clearly 'see' the 'nature' of reflection.
To see that there is really no mirror other than the ongoing reflection due to our emptiness nature. Neither is there a mirror to cling to as the background container nor a maya to escape from. Beyond these two extreme approaches lies the middle path -- the prajna wisdom of seeing that the maya is our Buddha nature.
Thusness also wrote before, (http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/mistaken-reality-of-amness.html): Since appearance is all there is and appearance is really the source, what gives rise to the diversities of appearances? “Sweetness” of sugar isn’t the “blueness” color of the sky. Same applies to “AMness”…Mr. Green all are equally pure, no one state is purer than the other, only condition differs. Conditions are factors that give appearances their ‘forms’. In Buddhism, pristine awareness and conditions are inseparable.
Although there is non-dual in Advaita and no-self in Buddhism, Advaita rest in an “Ultimate Background” (making it dualistic), whereas Buddhism eliminates the background completely and rest in the emptiness nature of phenomena; arising and ceasing is where pristine awareness is. In Buddhism, there is no eternality, only timeless continuity (timeless as in vividness in present moment but change and continue like a wave pattern). There is no changing thing, only change.
Lama Zopa Rinpoche wrote
http://www.fpmt.org/faq/mod1_faq_p4.asp#3
As stated in the teachings, buddha nature is defined as the emptiness of the fundamental clear light mind. The clear light of death is still a relative level of mind. But, because of the lack of conceptual thought at this level - its clear, luminous nature - it is see as analogous to buddha nature and used in meditation to approach complete union with buddha nature.
The mirror is an imperfect, but useful, analogy for the mind. Like a mirror mind 'reflects' what it comes in contact with. In that sense it also changes from moment to moment. The basic clear and knowing nature of the mind is sustained, just as the mirror's clear, reflective nature does not change.
That which is clear and knowing (the definition of mind) is eternal, as opposed to permanent. Eternal because it never ceases; it continues in its momentary, ever-changing (impermanent) flow into eternity. So, it is eternal and impermanent.
~ Lama Zopa Rinpoche
Regarding Lama Zopa Rinpoche's description, I wouldn't use the word 'eternal' either because of the misconceptions surrounding the term 'eternal'. But I think this description does not separate the indestructible from 'manifestation'. But then all descriptions are fine as long as there is correct understanding. -
(continued from previous post)
And here is an excerpt from The Awakening of Faith in Mahayana regarding One Mind:
"A. Mind in Terms of the Absolute
The Mind in terms of the Absolute is the one World of Reality (dharmadhatu) and the essence of all phases of existence in their totality.
That which is called "the essential nature of the Mind" is unborn and is imperishable. It is only through illusions that all things come to be differentiated. If one is freed from illusions, then to him there will be no appearances (lakshana) of objects regarded as absolutely independent existences; therefore all things from the beginning transcend all forms of verbalization, description, and conceptualization and are, in the final analysis, undifferentiated, free from alteration, and indestructible. They are only of the One Mind; hence the name Suchness. All explanations by words are provisional and without validity, for they are merely used in accordance with illusions and are incapable of denoting Suchness.
The term Suchness likewise has no attributes which can be verbally specified. The term Suchness is, so to speak, the limit of verbalization wherein a word is used to put an end to words. But the essence of Suchness itself cannot be put an end to, for all things in their Absolute aspect are real; nor is there anything which needs to be pointed out as real, for all things are equally in the state of Suchness. It should be understood that all things are incapable of being verbally explained or thought of; hence the name Suchness."
** Note: 'Mind Only' here does not mean that all perceivable reality is merely a mental perception, but that all appearance is the manifestation of our True Mind, our true nature. According to Thusness in Transcript of the Lankavatara Sutra sharing by Thusness,
First of all we have to understand that what is meant by All is Mind is different from what is meant by All is Perception. Wei-Xin-Lun (Mind-Only Doctrine) is not the same as Wei-Shi-Lun (Consciousness-Only Doctrine). When we say that you are young till now. LetÂ’s say you are an old person. Everything that you experience, and everything that you touch, feel, or experience from an experiential point of view is the Mind. This means every single thoughts, every single things, including when you scoop the sand, when you touch the sand, and when you feel the texture of the sand, is the Mind. This is the kind of experience that Lankavatara Sutra is talking about. So do not confuse that hey, it is a thought in your mind. No it is not talking about this. Many people misunderstand this. It is not talking about this. So first, we must be very clear that it is this experience that they are talking about. It is the experience that is Non-Duality.
*** Note: "Dharmakaya" as explained by Master Shen Kai:
(Source: Ven Shen Kai, Fa Yu Bing Fen)
Trans:
"Dharmakaya" is the Truth Body of the Tathagata, and also the reality of all phenomena. It permeates all of space and is omnipresent. An ancient sage said, "Green bamboos are entirely Dharma-kaya, luxuriant chrysanthemums are all Prajna; each grass, each tree, all in the ocean of Buddha-nature. Green bamboos are used for expressing the state of Dharma-kaya, but bamboos are by no means Dharma-kaya. Luxuriant chrysanthemums are used for displaying the function of Prajna, but chrysanthemums are by no means Prajna." -
Hi AEN,Originally posted by An Eternal Now:It depends
.
.
.
From what you wrote, I can see the clarity of your understanding on the concept of non-duality and emptiness. Obviously the AEN now is no more the AEN I knew in IRC few years back.
Sincerely that is the level of understanding I hope you can have and with your current understanding, you will not be easily swayed by false claims and understandings. I am happy for you.
Next you should also leverage on your existing understanding to realize the power of the ‘bond’. If reality is what you understood, why is the sound out there? Do not explain yourself away. Do not define by replacing your mind with strings of words. If you react this way, you merely touch the ‘surface’. Learn to feel and sense deeply without explaining anything. Be sincere, direct and intuitive.
Hear the sound, it is out there.
So clearly it is out there.
Feel it. The sound is really out there.
Do not explain but deeply feel this ‘bond’. How it blinded you.
Feel the full power of the ‘bond’ so that you understand how ‘bonds’ can create such amazing distortion of experience that is non-dual in nature.
If you can feel it, you will never dare to underestimate the power of propensity.
If you feel it, you can then practice with greater sincerity and insight.
Practice hard to authenticate you understood.
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As my Master Ven Shen Kai said...
Thus come never come
Thus gone never gone
Thus unmoving
No coming, no going
Such is known as Thus Come Thus Gone.
(Buddha = Thus Come One)
You say got objects come and go? Buddha say no coming, no going -
I see... thanks. Yea looking back my understanding is quite different nowOriginally posted by Thusness:Hi AEN,
From what you wrote, I can see the clarity of your understanding on the concept of non-duality and emptiness. Obviously the AEN now is no more the AEN I knew in IRC few years back.
Sincerely that is the level of understanding I hope you can have and with your current understanding, you will not be easily swayed by false claims and understandings. I am happy for you.
Next you should also leverage on your existing understanding to realize the power of the ‘bond’. If reality is what you understood, why is the sound out there? Do not explain yourself away. Do not define by replacing your mind with strings of words. If you react this way, you merely touch the ‘surface’. Learn to feel and sense deeply without explaining anything. Be sincere, direct and intuitive.
Hear the sound, it is out there.
So clearly it is out there.
Feel it. The sound is really out there.
Do not explain but deeply feel this ‘bond’. How it blinded you.
Feel the full power of the ‘bond’ so that you understand how ‘bonds’ can create such amazing distortion of experience that is non-dual in nature.
If you can feel it, you will never dare to underestimate the power of propensity.
If you feel it, you can then practice with greater sincerity and insight.
Practice hard to authenticate you understood.
Thanks for your post -
http://fpmtabc.org/newsletter/talks-by-thupten-jinpa.pdf
Topic is on Reflect on reality.
AEN,
Are u going for it ? -
This talk is really interesting.. I wish I can go but don't think I can make it.Originally posted by Isis:http://fpmtabc.org/newsletter/talks-by-thupten-jinpa.pdf
Topic is on Reflect on reality.
AEN,
Are u going for it ? -
Originally posted by sinweiy:
quite well known actually.
three stages in awakening:
Seeing Mountain is mountain, water is water.
Seeing Mountain is not mountain, water is not water.
Seeing Mountain is still mountain, water is still water.
http://www.kwanumzen.com/primarypoint/v18n2-2000-summer-dssn-fourtimesfiveequalstwenty.html
normal people see for example mountain as mountain and don't normally care.
the scientists however examine the mountian in detail, like what molecule it consist, the atomic structure etcs...hence the mountain become Not a mountain.
we buddhists also do something similar in examining phenomona and find that it is empty of a self-nature. this is "Form is Emptiness".
as for Emptiness is Form, well it's associated with dependent origination, middle way, non-duality and Equanimity. [b]one neither attached to form non attached to emptiness.
/\
[/b]
Seeing Mountain is mountain, water is water. (Form is Form)
Seeing Mountain is not mountain, water is not water. (Form is Emptiness)
Seeing Mountain is still mountain, water is still water. (Emptiness is Form)
~AEN~ is stuck at Seeing Mountain is not mountain, water is not water. (Form is Emptiness)
It is normal to get to
Seeing Mountain is mountain, water is water. (Form is Form)
Seeing Mountain is not mountain, water is not water. (Form is Emptiness)
and get stuck there... and all you see is a ball of light... and reality is only a ball of light...
So what is the difference between
Seeing Mountain is mountain, water is water. (Form is Form)
and
Seeing Mountain is still mountain, water is still water. (Emptiness is still Form)?
It is seeing what mountain really is... a ball of light and mountain... not just a ball of light... and not just mountain... not one, not two... -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
i tot i meant or used the word 'changing', then i tot even 'changing' is not right in the realm of Yi Zhen Fa Jie. then i just realised i already use the word 'unchanging'...funny me...haha...
It depends on what you mean by 'unchanging'. Our true nature is immovable, unborn and indestructible,
/\ -
heheheOriginally posted by sinweiy:i tot i meant or used the word 'changing', then i tot even 'changing' is not right in the realm of Yi Zhen Fa Jie. then i just realised i already use the word 'unchanging'...funny me...haha...
/\
Change happens, but no 'changing thing' exists...
Change and unmoving is one. In finality all manifestation must be experienced as unconditioned, pure, abiding presence, Non-movement. Everything is spontaneously arising in clarity and is mind-only. -
Dear Mr AndrewPKYap, I have already explained to you what is 'Emptiness is Form' in my previous post. I wonder if you have read it?
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
And as I replied, those who have true realisation and understand of what it means by "form is emptiness" also knows exactly what is meant by emptiness is form, as emptiness is the infinite potentiality of our intrinsic luminosity.
Emptiness is in fact refering that All There Is is the crystal clear emphemeral phenomena all around due to dependent arising that is self-knowing. It is appearance-emptiness, luminosity-emptiness inseparable.
See: The nature of the separate self, duality (Page 5)
There is no such thing as a 'ball of light' apart from all conditions. Even the experience of Mind devoid of all gross objects and thoughts as infinite expanse and 'void' is merely a particular type of condition as well relating to the thought realm, commonly mistaken to be 'I AMness' (also see Thusness's first posts to your first topic in our forum -- be in touch with unseen nature - Andrew PK Yap which Thusness told you, "The pure sense of existence, that "I AM", though vividly clear relates only to the thought realm. This is what I can say for now. Happy journey.") which in fact is an aspect of our pristine awareness but not all of it. True nature is not just that.
Emptiness in Buddhism has nothing to do with that sort of 'void'.
Thusness has also often warned not to mistake a minor aspect of our pure luminosity as realising our true nature. The true nature of reality, is Emptiness. So, our true nature is only realised when we have an intuitive perception of the true reality of Emptiness as Dependent Arising (see http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html, last updated Today.) -- therefore 'Ming Xin' does not necessarily mean 'Jian Xing'.
Regarding this, the Dalai Lama also spoke about it before:
http://www.lamayeshe.com/otherteachers/hhdl/happinesskarma.shtml
...Through the gates of the five sense organs a being sees, hears, smells, tastes and comes into contact with a host of external forms, objects and impressions. Let the form, sound, smell, taste, touch and mental events which are the relations of the six senses be shut off. When this is done the recollection of past events on which the mind tends to dwell will be completely discontinued and the flow of memory cut off. Similarly, plans for the future and contemplation of future action must not be allowed to arise. It is necessary to create a space in place of all such processes of thought if one is to empty the mind of all such processes of thought. Freed from all these processes there will remain a pure, clean, distinct and quiescent mind. Now let us examine what sort of characteristics constitute the mind when it has attained this stage. We surely do possess some thing called mind, but how are we to recognize its existence? The real and essential mind is what is to be found when the entire load of gross obstructions and aberrations (i.e. sense impressions, memories, etc.) has been cleared away. Discerning this aspect of real mind, we shall discover that, unlike external objects, its true nature is devoid of form or color; nor can we find any basis of truth for such false and deceptive notions as that mind originated from this or that, or that it will move from here to there, or that it is located in such-and-such a place. When it comes into contact with no object mind is like a vast, boundless void, or like a serene, illimitable ocean. When it encounters an object it at once has cognizance of it, like a mirror instantly reflecting a person who stands in front of it. The true nature of mind consists not only in taking clear cognizance of the object but also in communicating a concrete experience of that object to the one experiencing it.* Normally, our forms of sense cognition, such as eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, etc., perform their functions on external phenomena in a manner involving gross distortion. Knowledge resulting from sense cognition, being based on gross external phenomena, is also of a gross nature. [b]When this type of gross stimulation is shut out, and when concrete experiences and clear cognizance arise from within, mind assumes the characteristics of infinite void similar to the infinitude of space. But this void is not to be taken as the true nature of mind. We have become so habituated to consciousness of the form and color of gross objects that, when we make concentrated introspection into the nature of mind, it is, as I have said, found to be a vast, limitless void free from any gross obscurity or other hindrances. Nevertheless, this does not mean that we have discerned the subtle, true nature of the mind. What has been explained above concerns the state of mind in relation to the concrete experience and clear cognizance by the mind which are its function, but it describes only the relative nature of mind.
There are in addition several other aspects and states of mind. In other words, taking mind as the supreme basis, there are many attributes related to it. Just as an onion consists of layer upon layer that can be peeled away, so does every sort of object have a number of layers; and this is no less true of the nature of mind as explained here; it, too, has layer within layer, slate within state.
All compounded things are subject to disintegration. Since experience and knowledge are impermanent and subject to disintegration, the mind, of which they are functions (nature), is not something that remains constant and eternal. From moment to moment it undergoes change and disintegration. This transience of mind is one aspect of its nature. However, as we have observed, its true nature has many aspects, including consciousness of concrete experience and cognizance of objects. Now let us make a further examination in order to grasp the meaning of the subtle essence of such a mind. Mind came into existence because of its own cause. To deny that the origination of mind is dependent on a cause, or to say that it is a designation given as a means of recognizing the nature of mind aggregates, is not correct. With our superficial observance, mind, which has concrete experience and clear cognizance as its nature, appears to be a powerful, independent, subjective, completely ruling entity. However, deeper analysis will reveal that this mind, possessing as it does the function of experience and cognizance, is not a self-created entity but Is dependent on other factors for its existence. Hence it depends on something other than itself. This non-independent quality of the mind substance is its true nature which in turn is the ultimate reality of the self.
Of these two aspects, viz. the ultimate true nature of mind and a knowledge of that ultimate true nature, the former is the base, the latter an attribute. Mind (self) is the basis and all its different states are attributes. However, the basis and its attributes have from the first pertained to the same single essence. The non-self-created (depending on a cause other than itself) mind entity (basis) and its essence, sunyata, have unceasingly existed as the one, same, inseparable essence from beginningless beginning. The nature of sunyata pervades all elements. As we are now and since we cannot grasp or comprehend the indestructible, natural, ultimate reality (sunyata) of our own minds, we continue to commit errors and our defects persist....[/b] -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
And I want to add on to my previous post to AndrewPKYap on what Thusness said months back in another forum:
[b]It is odorless, formless, colorless, thoughtless and void of any attributes and we unknowingly objectified these attributes into an ‘entity’ and make it an eternal background or an emptiness void. When this is done, it prevents us from experiencing the color, texture, fabric and manifesting nature of awareness. Suddenly thoughts are being grouped into another category and disowned. In actual case, thoughts think and sound hears. The observer has always been the observed. In naked awareness, there is no splitting of attributes and objectification of these attributes into different groups of the same experience. So thoughts are not disowned and “impermanence nature” taken in wholeheartedly in the experience of no-self. ‘Impermanence’ is never what it seems to be, never what that is understood in conceptual thoughts. ‘Impermanence’ is not what the mind has conceptualized it to be. In non-dual experience, the true face of impermanence nature is experienced as happening without movement, change without going anywhere. This is the “what is” of impermanence. It is just so.[/b]Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
That is still duality.
Seeing Mountain is mountain, water is water. (Form is Form)
Seeing Mountain is not mountain, water is not water. (Form is Emptiness)
Seeing Mountain is still mountain, water is still water. (Emptiness is Form)
~AEN~ is stuck at [b]Seeing Mountain is not mountain, water is not water. (Form is Emptiness)
It is normal to get to
Seeing Mountain is mountain, water is water. (Form is Form)
Seeing Mountain is not mountain, water is not water. (Form is Emptiness)
and get stuck there... and all you see is a ball of light... and reality is only a ball of light...
So what is the difference between
Seeing Mountain is mountain, water is water. (Form is Form)
and
Seeing Mountain is still mountain, water is still water. (Emptiness is still Form)?
It is seeing what mountain really is... a ball of light and mountain... not just a ball of light... and not just mountain... not one, not two... [/b]
There is NO ball of light apart from mountain, so how can there be 'both a ball of light and mountain'?
Manifestation IS Source. -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:That is still duality.
There is NO ball of light apart from mountain, so how can there be 'both a ball of light and mountain'?
Manifestation IS Source.
'both a ball of light and mountain' is dualistic?
orrrr... somebody does not understand what is dualism...