dependent origination and middle way
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oei , hello , what "harsh" realitiesOriginally posted by AndrewPKYap:It is better to be brutally honest, we are all adults here... in order to get at the truth, you have to be able to face some "harsh" realities.
Reality as they say, bites.
we can live in a harmonious discussion then whacking the truth out of ppl
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truth is truth what... if you tell someone... "taking that position, makes you a candidate for IMH" and that is they truth, better they hear it than they end up in IMH... unless of course it is not true... unless of course it is not true that taking that position makes someone a candidate for IMH...Originally posted by bohiruci:oei , hello , what "harsh" realities
we can live in a harmonious discussion then whacking the truth out of ppl
If it is true that taking a certain position makes one a candidate for IMH, then it would also show that the position is in error and that person needs to re-consider his position... because, if it is true that taking that position can land one into IMH, he better re-consider his position... or he will really end up in IMH.
So you judge for yourself... from the quote below, if people take such a position, they can end up in IMH or not....Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
and maybe call an ambulance and send you to IMH...
If you go around telling people that the mountain Sir Edmund Hillary climbed, Mount Everest is not real, it is "is not an objective reality", people will look at you
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... you have to ask yourself, then, "why would taking this position end people up in IMH, what is wrong with it?"...
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... and I might refrain from saying it a another religious forums because they do not understand "empty of inherent existence".
To jump automatically to the conclusion that a phrase like "candidate for IHM" is offensive is to think that the phrase "candidate for IHM" is inherently offensive.
This would suggest that the reader does not understand or know the Buddhist teaching of non-inherent existence. The reader does not understand that the phrase "candidate for IHM" is "empty" .
Whatever the person imagines the phrase to mean and the "offensiveness " of the phrase is in his own head because the phrase "candidate for IHM" is empty of inherent content.
~AEN~ as far as I can see, had no problems with it! I directed that post to him and he has no problems with it. Some other people had a problem with it, not ~AEN~.
~AEN~ would have instinctively known, after talking with me for a year or so, that it was not meant to offend him.
Other people that does not understand the concept of non-inherent existence would impute inherent content into the phrase without realizing that whatever offensiveness they "detect" is but what is only existing in their own head and is not something that inherently exists in the phrase. -
Ya IMH is fine. Don't offend them thoughOriginally posted by AndrewPKYap:... and I might refrain from saying it a another religious forums because they do not understand "empty of inherent existence".
To jump automatically to the conclusion that a phrase like "candidate for IHM" is offensive is to think that the phrase "candidate for IHM" is inherently offensive.
This would suggest that the reader does not understand or know the Buddhist teaching of non-inherent existence. The reader does not understand that the phrase "candidate for IHM" is "empty" .
Whatever the person imagines the phrase to mean and the "offensiveness " of the phrase is in his own head because the phrase "candidate for IHM" is empty of inherent content.
~AEN~ as far as I can see, had no problems with it! I directed that post to him and he has no problems with it. Some other people had a problem with it, not ~AEN~.
~AEN~ would have instinctively known, after talking with me for a year or so, that it was not meant to offend him.
Other people that does not understand the concept of non-inherent existence would impute inherent content into the phrase without realizing that whatever offensiveness they "detect" is but what is only existing in their own head and is not something that inherently exists in the phrase. -
Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
I told you so well that Emptiness is Form is in fact refering to the fact that there is no ball of light apart from the mountain. The Mountain is the Source.
It appears to me that not everyone is stuck at " Form is Emptiness ".
When you want to talk about stages... "AndrewPKYap's realisations and experience is at stage 4: "
The stage 4, that you talk about is "stage 4" of " Form is Emptiness "....
What I am talking about, to you, is "Introduction to " [b]Emptiness is Form. [/b] -
That s not what I am talking about... you cannot "escape from reality" and say of the mountain, ""Mountain is not an objective reality, it is dependent arising apperances, it is Conditions, and that is Mind-Only".Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I told you so well that Emptiness is Form is in fact refering to the fact that there is no ball of light apart from the mountain. The Mountain is the Source.
Once you say that, you have not only escaped from reality but you have become dualistic.
If you say, "Mountain is not an objective reality, ...." and you also want to say, "Mountain is also an objective reality", then, people will (ok I don't use IMH)
... they will be right... to
... something cannot be "not an objective reality" and "is also an objective reality"...
You are dualistic... your dualism is "not an objective reality" and "an objective reality"....
If you say only that """Mountain is not an objective reality, it is dependent arising appearances, it is Conditions, and that is Mind-Only".... then you have escape from reality because people cannot climb up a ""Mountain that is not an objective reality, it is dependent arising apperances, it is Conditions, and that is Mind-Only".
Your whole approach is wrong.
You take "Form is Emptiness" and extend and extend it until it becomes ridiculous... because you entirely forgot... "Emptiness is Form".
hahaha, as usual I am not telling you anything but I am only giving you some pointers... you have to come to the answers yourself...
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You are still so stubbornly attached to the idea that there is a mountain. And just because a group of humans have the same sort of karmic vision (which is again, CONDITIONS, dependent arising) and they all think in the same way (that mountain has inherent existence), you believe in what you see because you are confirmed by all other humans as well. Of course if you talk to a dog he will tell you there is no such thing as a colourful mountain, maybe a butterfly will tell you something else.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:That s not what I am talking about... you cannot "escape from reality" and say of the mountain, ""Mountain is not an objective reality, it is dependent arising apperances, it is Conditions, and that is Mind-Only".
Once you say that, you have not only escaped from reality but you have become dualistic.
If you say, "Mountain is not an objective reality, it is dependent arising apperances, it is Conditions, and that is Mind-Only" and I also want to say, "Mountain is also an objective reality", then, people will (ok I don't use IMH)
... the will be right... to
... something cannot be "not an objective reality" and "is also an objective reality"...
You are dualistic... your dualism is "not an objective reality" and "an objective reality"....
Your whole approach is wrong.
You take "Form is Emptiness" and extend and extend it until it becomes ridiculous... because you entirely forgot... "Emptiness is Form".
hahaha, as usual I am not telling you anything but I am only giving you some pointers... you have to come to the answers yourself...
As you know modern science said that matter is made up of 99.999999999999999999 percent space. So if Buddha were to grant you to have a pair of eyes that enable you to see the assumed reality as suggested by modern science at the quantum level, you see almost all void. So with that eyesights, can you see boundaries between chair, table and ur skins? Or just void and some ping pong balls spinning here and there?
AndrewPKYap should really look into the quantum glasses and then maybe he won't be so attached to the idea of a 'mountain' anymore. Instead, he will ask 'where is the mountain??' because then he only sees voidness everywhere.
Yet even with that eyesight, still reality is luminous-emptiness, Conditions, dependent arising, Buddha Nature. Emptiness is Form.
Without insights into true non-duality its impossible to comprehend what's "Emptiness" in experience anyway. -
i see...
no worries nobody gets offended lah i'm sure.
but hhmm... it's still to hasty to jump into assumption about others who would get offended you know?
just find it funny to bring in IMH in this topic discussion though. i mean to see how people's argument can get humourous or intense when penetrated.
no amount of words or description is able to show a practitioner or learner the non-dual experience. you gotta live experience it. the further one gets too engrossed in those concepts, the more errors and further away.
real experiences are not borrowed.
ok thanks people for sharing some valuable exchanges.
hehe... -
Sometimes discussions and debate is usefulOriginally posted by paperflower:i see...
no worries nobody gets offended lah i'm sure.
but hhmm... it's still to hasty to jump into assumption about others who would get offended you know?
just find it funny to bring in IMH in this topic discussion though. i mean to see how people's argument can get humourous or intense when penetrated.
no amount of words or description is able to show a practitioner or learner the non-dual experience. you gotta live experience it. the further one gets too engrossed in those concepts, the more errors and further away.
real experiences are not borrowed.
ok thanks people for sharing some valuable exchanges.
hehe... The Tibetans do that all the time. It brings clarity to understanding and question what one thinks one knows. -
Precisely because Emptiness is Dependent Arising giving rise to the manifold of manifestation, Emptiness is FormOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:Yet even with that eyesight, still reality is luminous-emptiness, Conditions, dependent arising, Buddha Nature. Emptiness is Form.
Otherwise Form is just Form, Emptiness is Emptiness, you can't see beyond duality. One will never be able to see how the One is the Many.
Just like the 'ball of light and mountain'.... that is still a form of a clear mirror reflecting objects... still dualistic.
Thusness: ...because of to a mind that is not free from dualism, one only sees a universe divided into objective and subjective reality. But when that center is gone and emptiness is realised, a dust is a universe. It is difficult to see the profound truth....
...once we go beyond a subject-objective universe, we r no more restricted. A moment, a manifestation, a speck of dust, a chant, a breath.... is like a universe of its own.. -
What the dog sees, what the butterfly sees and what the human sees when they look at the mountain... might not be the same.... and in fact it is different.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:You are still so stubbornly attached to the idea that there is a mountain. And just because a group of humans have the same sort of karmic vision (which is again, CONDITIONS, dependent arising) and they all think in the same way (that mountain has inherent existence), you believe in what you see because you are confirmed by all other humans as well. Of course if you talk to a dog he will tell you there is no such thing as a colourful mountain, maybe a butterfly will tell you something else.
As you know modern science said that matter is made up of 99.999999999999999999 percent space. So if Buddha were to grant you to have a pair of eyes that enable you to see the assumed reality as suggested by modern science at the quantum level, you see almost all void. So with that eyesights, can you see boundaries between chair, table and ur skins? Or just void and some ping pong balls spinning here and there?
AndrewPKYap should really look into the quantum glasses and then maybe he won't be so attached to the idea of a 'mountain' anymore. Instead, he will ask 'where is the mountain??' because then he only sees voidness everywhere.
Yet even with that eyesight, still reality is luminous-emptiness, Conditions, dependent arising, Buddha Nature. Emptiness is Form.
Without insights into true non-duality its impossible to comprehend what's "Emptiness" in experience anyway.
Does it means then that the "thing" the dog sees, the butterfly sees and what the human sees, because they see different things... that "thing" .. because they see different things, is not there, does not exists?
The man and the dog can run up and the butterfly can fly up the mountain... to the flowers that are growing there.
Do you think the dog will think to itself... no point running up that "thing" and chase the rabbits for the fun of it because it does not exist?
Do you think the butterfly will think to itself... no point running up that "thing" and suck on the flowers growing there because it does not exist?
Even people that go around preaching that the "thing" does not exist will climb up that "thing" and gamble at the Genting Casino...
Mr ~AEN~ if you want to arrive at the truth, you have to face reality and your explanations of what reality is, must not be in conflict with what you observe.
What is this "explanation that is not in conflict with what you observe", hahaha you will not be getting the answer from me... I only guide you so you to come to the right answer... -
tsk... existence and non existence.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:What the dog sees, what the butterfly sees and what the human sees when they look at the mountain... might not be the same.... and in fact it is different.
Does it means then that the "thing" the dog sees, the butterfly sees and what the human sees, because they see different things... that "thing" .. because they see different things, is not there, does not exists?
The man and the dog can run up and the butterfly can fly up the mountain... to the flowers that are growing there.
Do you think the dog will think to itself... no point running up that "thing" and chase the rabbits for the fun of it because it does not exist?
Do you think the butterfly will think to itself... no point running up that "thing" and suck on the flowers growing there because it does not exist?
Even people that go around preaching that the "thing" does not exist will climb up that "thing" and gamble at the Genting Casino...
Mr ~AEN~ if you want to arrive at the truth, you have to face reality and your explanations of what reality is, must not be in conflict with what you observe.
What is this "explanation that is not in conflict with what you observe", hahaha you will not be getting the answer from me... I only guide you so you to come to the right answer...
Let's go back to square one againOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:
It shows you have not understood what I am writing, or you didn't read.
I wrote:
All is merely dependent arising, they are mere APPEARANCE that is Mind-Only having NO objective reality or inherent existence, no fixed shapes, attributes, form, anythings that can be grasped.
[b]BUT it does not mean that they do not exist -- emptiness is empty of the four extremes of 'existence, non existence, both existence and non existence, neither existence nor non existenece'. The middle way is that there is merely APPEARANCES -- Emptiness cannot be separated from appearances. Mountain is not an objective reality, it is dependent arising apperances, it is Conditions, and that is Mind-Only.
I think I must have mentioned about the 4 extremes countless times in this forum....
Remember, as countless Masters have said, Buddha Nature is Appearance-Emptiness inseparable.[/b] -
Keep your secret tightly, for me there is no secret. The truth is wide open, everywhere found, fully authenticated. My path has begun and I merely walk on! Good luck to you.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:What is this "explanation that is not in conflict with what you observe", hahaha you will not be getting the answer from me... I only guide you so you to come to the right answer... 
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i see...
sure please go ahead. -
*sigh* you cannot say something exists and at the same time say the words... "Mountain is not an objective reality, it is dependent arising apperances, it is Conditions, and that is Mind-Only" which makes it non-existing...
Therefore when you say ""Mountain is not an objective reality, it is dependent arising apperances, it is Conditions, and that is Mind-Only" you are being dualistic because when you say that, you are saying that the mountain does not exist and is "Mind-Only"...
... so since I am not giving you answers and you are confident of your own position... we shall leave it at that
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four extremes: existence, non existence, both existence and non existence, neither existence nor non existence.
ok shall leave at that. -
I am confident that AEN is talking nonsense.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:*sigh* you cannot say something exists and at the same time say the words... "Mountain is not an objective reality, it is dependent arising apperances, it is Conditions, and that is Mind-Only" which makes it non-existing...
Therefore when you say ""Mountain is not an objective reality, it is dependent arising apperances, it is Conditions, and that is Mind-Only" you are being dualistic because when you say that, you are saying that the mountain does not exist and is "Mind-Only"...
... so since I am not giving you answers and you are confident of your own position... we shall leave it at that 
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I am confident that you have no understanding whatsoever about the real teachings of Buddhism.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:I am confident that AEN is talking nonsense.
And because you don't have a slightest hint what the teachings are about, it makes no sense to you.
I'm sorry, you have a lot to learn. -
Just a sharing of a passage that Thusness told me to read again because it's very well written. There is no need for anyone to reply anything.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:"These appearances have been unborn primordially.
Being without an essence, they are like reflections.
Nevertheless, they still appear as variety."
"Space and wisdom are non-dual and of one taste."
"The two truths are known as non-dual appearance-emptiness."
"Inseparable and primordial appearance and emptiness."
-- Longchenpa --
That's why without understanding Emptiness which is Dependent Origination, one cannot understand why the one is the many. How reality is not 'THE mirror' or 'THE center' but really the diversity/Conditions as ongoing reflection itself is mirror.
update: Longchenpa is not our forummer Longchen, Longchenpa is a major Dzogchen & Nyingma teacher living in the 14th century.
(3:08 PM) Thusness: by the way, i told u to read 96 onwards.
(3:09 PM) Thusness: 97 clearly say there is no background.
(3:10 PM) Thusness: "It is not there is some sort of void that to be said as some sort of things or place itself"
(3:10 PM) Thusness: and italic 'external' somemore
(3:10 PM) Thusness: u must read carefully.
(3:11 PM) Thusness: so all teachings whatever said about the mirror is understood from here onwards.
(3:11 PM) Thusness: to tok about ongoing reflection.
(3:11 PM) Thusness: presence is not a behind enitity...when u hold, u experience only an illusion.
(3:12 PM) Thusness: if ur entire mind is a behind 'thing', u continue to filter 'what is' clearly manifesting.
(right click on image, click Show Picture/View Image to view in full)
~ Source: 'The Crystal and the Way of Light', Chogyal Namkhai Norbu -
Just like to repeat to clear this misunderstanding of Emptiness that is very common among people out there... Emptiness has NOTHING to do with 'Non-Existence' or voidness in the sense of 'absence' (that would be the extreme of nihilism), but Emptiness means Dependent Arising.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:four extremes: existence, non existence, both existence and non existence, neither existence nor non existence.
ok shall leave at that.
'Non-existence' is an extreme view, Emptiness is empty of all four extremes, because all extremes (existence, non existence, etc) have its basis on seeing graspable 'entities' as having subjective (as 'Self') or objective reality (having inherent existence/non-existence/etc out there). -
I thought you wanted to drop it?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Just like to repeat to clear this misunderstanding of Emptiness that is very common among people out there... Emptiness has NOTHING to do with 'Non-Existence', but Emptiness means Dependent Arising.
'Non-existence' is an extreme view, Emptiness means empty of all four extremes.
But just to let you know hor... you cannot say "Emptiness has NOTHING to do with 'Non-Existence', but Emptiness means Dependent Arising"
and then say
""Mountain is not an objective reality, it is dependent arising apperances, it is Conditions, and that is Mind-Only". "
because
"Mountain is not an objective reality, it is dependent arising apperances, it is Conditions, and that is Mind-Only". "
means... non-existence...
OK, I will drop it... -
... and is dualistic...
ok, ok, I will drop it... -
Nope. 'Mountain has no objective reality' is not imputing non-existence, but denying inherent existence, or denying the view of there being an objective reality of a mountain -- and that precisely is what inherent existence about.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:I thought you wanted to drop it?
But just to let you know hor... you cannot say "Emptiness has NOTHING to do with 'Non-Existence', but Emptiness means Dependent Arising"
and then say
""Mountain is not an objective reality, it is dependent arising apperances, it is Conditions, and that is Mind-Only". "
because
"Mountain is not an objective reality, it is dependent arising apperances, it is Conditions, and that is Mind-Only". "
means... non-existence...
OK, I will drop it...
In fact, you can say that the illusion of objective and subjective realities is the source of the four extremes -- you need to have a concept of an 'entity out there' to think in terms of existence, non existence, etc.
There is a whole difference. By saying there is no objective reality, it is not saying that the mountain is Non-Existing, but mountain is Not Inherently Existing, being merely Mind-Only-Dependent-Arising-Appearances like reflections in water, appearances that is primordially unborn, having no self essence.
Appearances continue to arise in diversity, but precisely it is called 'appearances' it means it has no substantial/graspable reality out there -- being merely like reflections of the moon on water. Furthermore, appearance is intrinsically luminous, it is the depth of crystal clarity of appearances that arise and subside instantaneously yet without movement that must be experienced, not just a conceptual understanding of 'appearance'.
Concepts of existence and non existence can only see mountain as an entity, it cannot sense Conditions and Dependent Arising. -
uh uh uh... what is "no objective reality" ? It is not "denying inherent existence".
That is why you are confused....
You think you understand but you are confused... and only an "objective" person, me, in this case can see it... and if you want to see it, (you cannot because you are "subjective", not "objective") you will have to meditate/contemplate on it.
uh uh uh... what is "Mind-Only" ? It is not "denying inherent existence".
uh uh uh... what are "appearances only" ? It is not "denying inherent existence".
Conditions and Dependent Arising... ok that speaks of "denying inherent existence".
But you have confused yourself by jumbling up Conditions and Dependent Arising... which speaks of "denying inherent existence" and the others, which speak of non-existence.
That you lumped them together shows that you are confused in your mind.
That is why I keep telling you to express in your own words and not simply cut and paste.. for when you do that, when you express in your own words, you will be able to see where you are confused....