dependent origination and middle way
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Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:That is not "no objective reality"; what is the Mind-Only teaching trying to tell you? That Outside the mind, there is no existence?
The ""Mind" or "Buddhanature";; and so forth.""Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Your questions cannot be asked that way, since there is no 'outside' or 'inside' Mind. No subject nor object. Neither is there the question of existence or non existence.
Dependent arising continues to display as appearances in diversity -- but merely as appearances, reflections, empty & unborn. Reality is the 'union of dependent origination and emptiness'.
"And as David Loy said so nicely in The Difference between Samsara and Nirvana: There is only one reality -- this world, right here -- but this world may be experienced in two different ways. Samsara is the "relative" world as usually experienced, in which "I" dualistically perceive "it" as a collection of objects which interact causally in space and time. Nirvana is the world as it is in itself, nondualistic in that it incorporates both subject and object into a whole which, Madhyamika insists, cannot be characterized (Chandrakirti: "Nirvana or Reality is that which is absolved of all thought-construction" ), but which Yogacara nevertheless sometimes calls "Mind" or "Buddhanature";; and so forth."
The Awakening of Faith in Mahayana:
"A. Mind in Terms of the Absolute
The Mind in terms of the Absolute is the one World of Reality (dharmadhatu) and the essence of all phases of existence in their totality.
That which is called "the essential nature of the Mind" is unborn and is imperishable. It is only through illusions that all things come to be differentiated. If one is freed from illusions, then to him there will be no appearances (lakshana) of objects regarded as absolutely independent existences; therefore all things from the beginning transcend all forms of verbalization, description, and conceptualization and are, in the final analysis, undifferentiated, free from alteration, and indestructible. They are only of the One Mind; hence the name Suchness. All explanations by words are provisional and without validity, for they are merely used in accordance with illusions and are incapable of denoting Suchness.
The term Suchness likewise has no attributes which can be verbally specified. The term Suchness is, so to speak, the limit of verbalization wherein a word is used to put an end to words. But the essence of Suchness itself cannot be put an end to, for all things in their Absolute aspect are real; nor is there anything which needs to be pointed out as real, for all things are equally in the state of Suchness. It should be understood that all things are incapable of being verbally explained or thought of; hence the name Suchness."
refers to what and why is ""Mind" or "Buddhanature";; and so forth."" SUCHNESS but (in a way) not relevant... ? -
All there is is Suchness.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:The ""Mind" or "Buddhanature";; and so forth.""
refers to what and why is ""Mind" or "Buddhanature";; and so forth."" SUCHNESS but (in a way) not relevant... ? -
ok, give you a hint... if I tell you, "all there is the universe..." do you think that is useful?
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No, unless non-duality and emptiness is understood, it is meaningless.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:ok, give you a hint... if I tell you, "all there is the universe..." do you think that is useful?
Or rather, one will simply see that as 'Form is Form', not 'Form is Emptiness' nor 'Emptiness is Form'. -
I doubt non-duality and emptiness is understood in all effects.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:No, unless non-duality and emptiness is understood, it will make no sense. -
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:I doubt non-duality and emptiness is understood in all effects.
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The universe, while it is true is everything, it is nevertheless made up of galaxies, solar systems, planets, continents, countries, people, body parts, carbon molecules, sub-atomic particles, energy...Originally posted by An Eternal Now:No, unless non-duality and emptiness is understood, it is meaningless.
Or rather, one will simply see that as 'Form is Form', not 'Form is Emptiness' nor 'Emptiness is Form'.
To focus on "the universe is energy", (Form is Emptiness, true but) is as useless and meaningless as it is to focus on "the universe is everything" (Emptiness is Form)
To tell people that all there is is SUCHNESS, is in the same way, as meaningless and useless as to tell people "the universe is energy" or "the universe is everything" ...
... that is why the thread title is "dependent origination and middle way"...
... ultimately, it is "the middle way" that makes sense.... when you consider both that "the universe is energy", (Form is Emptiness, true but) and "the universe is everything" (Emptiness is Form, true but)...
... what you will get is "the middle way".... -
... 2500 years ago during Buddha's time, SUCHNESS and "the universe is energy, empty) would be really advance thinking....
... now 2500 years later, it is time to move on... and even 2500 years ago, people had figured out that "the middle way" makes sense...
... therefore "dependent origination and middle way " must always go together.... -
There is such suchness for independent origin but no one believes in it.
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There is absolutely not such thing as independent origination. Don't live in your dream world.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:There is such suchness for independent origin but no one believes in it. -
The middle way is appearance-emptiness inseperable. Vividly clear, gone as it arise. Ultimately even establishment of views is not required because it is simply the natural expression, 'suchness' of all things. But IMHO, without first understanding the views, 'suchness' will be meaningless.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:The universe, while it is true is everything, it is nevertheless made up of galaxies, solar systems, planets, continents, countries, people, body parts, carbon molecules, sub-atomic particles, energy...
To focus on "the universe is energy", (Form is Emptiness, true but) is as useless and meaningless as it is to focus on "the universe is everything" (Emptiness is Form)
To tell people that all there is is SUCHNESS, is in the same way, as meaningless and useless as to tell people "the universe is energy" or "the universe is everything" ...
... that is why the thread title is "dependent origination and middle way"...
... ultimately, it is "the middle way" that makes sense.... when you consider both that "the universe is energy", (Form is Emptiness, true but) and "the universe is everything" (Emptiness is Form, true but)...
... what you will get is "the middle way"....
"The master of the pure totally encompassing kaya,
after the appearance of great emptiness self-arose,
went beyond to a place which is not a destination." -
"In Buddhism we have relative truth and absolute truth. From the viewpoint of absolute truth, what we feel and experience in our ordinary daily life is all delusion. Of all the various delusions, the sense of discrimination between oneself and others is the worst form, as it creates nothing but unpleasantness for both sides. If we can realize and meditate on ultimate truth, it will cleanse our impurities of mind and thus eradicate the sense of discrimination. This will help to create true love for one another. The search for ultimate truth is, therefore, vitally important.
"Nowadays the world is becoming increasingly materialistic, and mankind is reaching toward the very zenith of external progress, driven by an insatiable desire for power and vast possessions. Yet by this vain striving for perfection in a world where everything is relative, they wander even further away from inward peace and happiness of the mind. This we can all bear witness to, living as we do plagued by unremitting anxiety Â… It becomes more and more imperative that the life of the spirit be avowed as the only firm basis upon which to establish happiness and peace. I truly believe that individuals can make a difference in society. Since periods of change such as the present one come so rarely in human history, it is up to each of us to make the best use of our time to help create a happier world.
"If you have a particular faith or religion, that is good. But you can survive without it if you have a love, compassion, and tolerance. The clear proof of a personÂ’s love of God is if that person genuinely shows love to fellow human beings. I pray for a more friendly, more caring, and more understanding human family on this planet.
To all who dislike suffering, who cherish lasting happiness ~ this is my heartfelt appeal.
"I believe deeply that we must find, all of us together, a new spirituality. This new concept ought to be elaborated alongside the religions, in such a way that all people of good will could adhere to it. We ought to promote this concept with the help of scientists. It could lead us to what we are looking for.
"I am open to the guidance of synchronicity, and do not let expectations hinder my path. I find hope in the darkest of days, and focus in the brightest. I do not judge the universe.
"A new way of thinking has become the necessary condition for responsible living and acting. If we maintain obsolete values and beliefs, a fragmented consciousness and self-centered spirit, we will continue to hold onto outdated goals and behaviors. Such an attitude by a large number of people would block the entire transition to an interdependent yet peaceful and cooperative global society.
"This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness.
"We can never obtain peace in the outer world until we make peace with ourselves. If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." The Dalai Lama -
That is the extreme emptiness way and how can it be the middle way?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:The middle way is appearance-emptiness inseperable. Vividly clear, gone as it arise.
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That is not an extreme. Extreme is only in terms of existence, non-existence, etc. Or to seek a mirror, escape maya, etc.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:That is the extreme emptiness way and how can it be the middle way?
The middle way is luminous-emptiness inseparable manifested as appearances. Therefore we must not shunt away from appearances, thus, middle. -
*sigh*
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Originally posted by Isis:
ha..this is also wat i thought too.
"In Buddhism we have relative truth and absolute truth. From the viewpoint of absolute truth, what we feel and experience in our ordinary daily life is all delusion. Of all the various delusions, the sense of discrimination between oneself and others is the worst form, as it creates nothing but unpleasantness for both sides. If we can realize and meditate on ultimate truth, it will cleanse our impurities of mind and thus eradicate the sense of discrimination. This will help to create true love for one another. The search for ultimate truth is, therefore, vitally important....." The Dalai Lama
ie. really treat other as if treating oneself.
Buddhas see everyone as Buddhas.
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This is not an explanation, but a quote attributed to Zen Master Dogen.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:The true nature of all phenomena are also 'unborn and undying', and are also expression of luminosity-emptiness inseparable. When this is understood, our true nature cannot be said to be separated from changing phenomena. Our true nature cannot be separated from conditions. One of the important teachings of Zen Master Dogen is that 'Buddha Nature is Impermanence'. If I can find a good article to explain this, I will post it here.
Interpreting a sutra passage, Dogen concludes: "By way of illustration, if you wish to know the Buddha-nature's meaning might be read, you are directly knowing the Buddha-nature's meaning. You should watch for temporal conditions means you are directly knowing temporal conditions. If you wish to know the Buddha-nature, you should know that it is precisely temporal conditions themselves." 7 -
Found a great quote:
What appears is at the same time disappearing, the arising and the passing away, a single movement, without beginning or end. This is the preciousness of life, this amazing constellation of feelings, thoughts, sensations, and the mystery of wakefulness that illuminates them all, here and then gone in a flash.
And the extraordinary paradox is that this which is ever changing is, at the same time, changeless. A bird, a tear, a star- all the movement of a single life, one ocean dancing as a thousand different waves and yet always remaining itself.
~ John Astin -
The author of this post (from another forum) has true experience/realisations of non-duality and emptiness. Do contemplate on this.
(first part snipped)
assuming “pretty darn close’ means that there are no ‘significant’ gaps in this description of ‘toombaru’s world view’…
to continue...
how is it that 'michael' can get 'inside' 'toombaru'... to see what 'he' sees... as 'he' sees it...
according to science... this is what is happening...
'light' is reflected from the surface of the computer and emitted from the screen in front of michael’s eyes (in the external world)... this 'light' is ‘electro-magnetic radiation'… 'pure energy'… without 'mass'...
from wikipedia: “Electromagnetic (EM) radiation is a self-propagating wave in space with electric and magnetic components. These components oscillate at right angles to each other and to the direction of propagation, and are in phase with each other. Electromagnetic radiation is classified into types according to the frequency of the wave: these types include, in order of increasing frequency, radio waves, microwaves, terahertz radiation, infrared radiation, visible light, ultraviolet radiation, X-rays and gamma rays.
however... the 'light' itself is invisible... it is not possible to see 'light'... any more than it is possible to see 'radio waves'...
it is called ‘the visible spectrum’… or ‘light’… simply because it results in a ‘seeing response’ when incident on a healthy human eye connected to a healthy human brain…
when the 'light energy' hits the 'retina' at the back of each eye... it ceases to be 'light'...
instead… it is 'absorbed' by 'chemicals' in the ‘rods’ and ‘cones’ ('physical structures in the eye) and changed into a series of electro-chemical 'impulses'… the nature of these impulses depends upon the 'frequency' and 'intensity' of the light hitting the retina...
within the cones are three types of ‘colour sensitive pigments’… relating to ‘red’, ‘green’ and ‘blue’… however… these ‘pigments’ are not actual ‘colours’… they are called by these names simply because each ‘pigment’ responds to different wavelengths of light...
resulting in different 'electro-chemical impulses' inside the body... again... these 'impulses' are not 'colours'... they are just 'electro-chemical signals'...
these 'impulses' travel along the 'optic nerves' to the ‘optic chasm’ in the centre of the head, where the nerve fibres from the inside half of each retina cross to the other side of the brain, while the nerve fibres from the outside half of the retina stay on the same side of the brain...
once these ‘electro-chemical signals’ reach the visual cortex… they are said to be ‘interpreted’ as ‘colour’… but no 'scientist' knows what this means… or how it happens…
the problem is not ‘insufficient knowledge' (that will one day be rectified through further investigation)…
the problem is that ‘seeing colour’ cannot be reduced to anything else… it cannot be measured or quantified… any ‘quantitative description’ of ‘colour’… (in terms of ‘light frequencies’ or ‘pigments’ or ‘electro-chemical impulses’)… is not the ‘experience of seeing colour’…
like all sensations… ‘colours’ can only be experienced…
according to science… the first moment that ‘actual colours’ appear (are experienced)… is in the ‘visual cortex’… not in the ‘outside world’…
so… what started out as ‘invisible electro-magnetic radiation’ reflected from the computer and emitted from the screen… was changed into ‘electro-chemical impulses' in the retina…
these impulses then flowed along the optic nerves and into the visual cortex Â…
to this point... there is no awareness at all of the whole process… nor of any ‘colour’..
then… by some magic… inside the visual cortex… these 'impulses of electro-chemical energy’ are suddenly changed into these apparent ‘colours’…
even though, according to science... all that exists (in a 'real physical sense')... and all that is capable of 'scientific observation and measurement'... are the 'swirling atoms and electrons and energy fields' that make up the brain... all just following the 'laws of nature' in a 'mechanical' (though probabilistic) way...
it is only the 'subject' that can see colour directly...
the colours are not just seen as a 'patch of colours'... they are seen AS a ‘computer screen with words from toombaru on it'...
nor is this image perceived as 'an image in my head'... instead... it is seen AS 'the actual computer in the ‘outside world’… even though it is not...
all that is really seen is a 'coloured image'… having no substance or depth… exactly the same as any ‘dream image’…
according to science... this 'coloured image' appears onlyÂ… inside the visual cortexÂ… inside the headÂ…
the ‘actual computer' remains ‘unseen’… outside the head…
according to science... no 'colours' appear anywhere in the 'outside world'... the only place 'colours' appear is inside a 'healthy visual cortex'...
according to science... there is no ‘little you' inside the head… looking out along the optic nerves into the ‘real world’… nor is there any 'little you' looking at a 'screen' (inside the visual cortex) that shows an image of the world ‘outside’…
the image and the seeing of it are inseparableÂ…
in the moment it appears... 'you' are the image... and the seeing of it...
according to science... 'observer and observed are one'...
are we still together on this...?
Love
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good... though as to the 'articulation'... that remains to be seen...
all sensations are the same as colour... they are 'qualia'... irreducible... they cannot be verified by anyone but the 'subject'...
who... according to science... is the 'sensing/sensations' that arise in the instant....
together...
seeing inseparable from colour
hearing inseparable from sound
tasting inseparable from flavour
smelling inseparable from odour
feeling inseparable from feelings
is 'awareness'...
according to science... this 'witness witnessing' is a function of 'brain activity'... arising in a moment... and in a moment gone... as 'brain activity' is altered... in 'deep sleep' for example... or if the brain is damaged... or upon death of the brain...
is there anything missing from this description of 'awareness'... as proposed by science?
Love -
Which dream world are you living in? My statement is just as true as yours.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:There is absolutely not such thing as independent origination. Don't live in your dream world. -
You have not given me a single credible real life example of independent origination when I asked you. Which shows that you have no ideas what you are talking about.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Which dream world are you living in? My statement is just as true as yours.
I on the other hand can provide countless examples of dependent arising. -
Remember we were posting on a topic on Chaos theory and how possible that an arhant's breathe can create a typhoon that killed thousands of people? There were many such topics I pointed out but you deleted away.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:You have not given me a single credible real life example of independent origination when I asked you. Which shows that you have no ideas what you are talking about.
I on the other hand can provide countless examples of dependent arising. -
I have never deleted any topics, only nonsense postings.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Remember we were posting on a topic on Chaos theory and how possible that an arhant's breathe can create a typhoon that killed thousands of people? There were many such topics I pointed out but you deleted away.
Next, I have mentioned how Chaos theory is a perfect illustration of dependent origination in Buddhism -- "this arises, that arises"
Thusness: Chaos theory breaks determinism, breaks boundary, yet does not deny order... a higher order that is too complex to be determined. Initial cause does not result into a predetermined action. From a spiritual perspective,
the rigidity of ‘I’ as a fixed pattern order must be broken down for life to be experienced in its full dynamics as wondrous manifestation.. -
Chaos theory-"this doesn't arise, that arises."Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I have never deleted any topics, only nonsense postings.
Next, I have mentioned how Chaos theory is a perfect illustration of dependent origination in Buddhism -- "this arises, that arises"
Thusness: Chaos theory breaks determinism, breaks boundary, yet does not deny order... a higher order that is too complex to be determined. Initial cause does not result into a predetermined action. From a spiritual perspective,
the rigidity of ‘I’ as a fixed pattern order must be broken down for life to be experienced in its full dynamics as wondrous manifestation.. -
No. Butterfly flaps its wing, something happens a thousand miles away.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Chaos theory-"this doesn't arise, that arises."
This is chaos theory and dependent origination.
What you said has nothing to do with chaos theory.