A cruel scene in singapore
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For point 1 & 3, please understand what this thread is all about.
I don't want to answer to moving goal post.
The debate is whether killing is done for his sake.
And you don't buy, they don't replenished so often and won't order so much from the supplier in the future.Originally posted by justdoit77:2) Buy a packaged one or live one
If let's say the customer buy a live chicken to be killed. For sure, the chicken is going to suffer and die because of this. But if he buy from supermarket instead, the supermarket may have extra stock that even if the demand increase by let's say 1%, the number of chicken to be slaughtered at the butcher will remains the same. Anyway, the unsold chicken once reach expiry date, will be disposed.
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If you buy, you are telling them there is a demand for it. So they order more next time. -
So you buy, you have making up the demand. Next time they increase the supply to meet the demand.Originally posted by bohiruci:the 5 precepts study on killing stated clearly ,ordering of already died animal not seeing it , hearing it or it die by the clear reason due to self (human ) inflicted is considered as not insurmountable to breaking the precepts of killings
Customer: I go to supermarket to buy, cos it is already dead.
Seller: More demands, we need to increase the supply to meet the demands.
Fine, he didn't order the killings in the 1st place. But by buying it and increasing the demand, more killings takes place.
So how can it be said that the killing is not done for his sake?
Someone said that by buying frozen meat, killing is not done for his sake.
But by rewarding the seller, it tells the seller there is a demand to increase the supply next time.
So how can it be said that the killing is not done for his sake?
If people who buy frozen meat think killing is not done for his sake, then they are missing the whole picture. -
Like I said earlier in my reply to you, 'intention' is the important factor here. The butchers have intentions to sell frozen meat to you but you do not have intention to kill the animal to eat the meat, and that is why, it is not against the 5 clean meat.Originally posted by SnowFlag:With more people getting into this thread, I would like to point out that the whole issue of this discussion is that a guy quote the following, saying that by doing so, the meat is clean and so bad karma for the act is lesser
If you read my 1st post, you will see that the point is I wanted to bring up is that when we buy the meat, the slaughter is committed for our sake liao.
Why this is so? The slaughter is committed for the consumers. You form part of the consumers when buy or eat it.
Let me compare the olden and modern times.
In Buddha's times, the 5 rules was preached to the monks, who may encountered these situations when they get their alms. The monks don't want to eat the meat in the 1st place.
In modern times, people use the 5 rules to justify themselves to eat the so call clean meat. But the meat intake doesn't reduced.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Nope. Cos Karma comes by intention. Karma is volitional and is a form of consciousness. Karma means intentional action -- without intention there is no karma. Buying the meat off the shelf doesnt come with the direct intention to kill the animal but nevertheless there is karma for supporting the killing indirectly. If you order seafood it happens that the sea creatures are still alive and by stating your intentions to eat them you are also giving an order for them to be killed. By witnessing the killing of the animal you ordered to be killed it also forms karmic imprints and by eating the meat you witnessed (being killed) it also forms karma because you are accepting that deed of killing by eating it.
But one with real compassion would not even buy meat as it supports killing. He has constant compassion for all sentient beings out there.
Of course if one can cut down on meat it will be the best. -
That's what I like about Buddhism. It seeks to help people comprehend, its not about conforming to the rules, but to comprehend the philosophy.Originally posted by bohiruci:hi ,soul ,Buddhism is not a dogma religion , you are still welcome to debate on those thing u not convinced Smile
end of day , i dun force ppl to convinced ,but made ppl convinced
First , Buddha already said in 2500 years ago in many Mahayana sutra (500 and more ) that Plants does not have the mind ,memory ,experience and consciousness function of a human.
It 2500 years ago , and science still unable to find where is the heart of the plant [cellulose wall is heart ?]
and the point i have been saying is Intention and not Demand and Supply
Economics of Science Aspect cannot compare to human intention
Let me ask you .
If you increased the demand for meat ,May I ask how much u want order to increase this demand
I used to vote for a song to go up to the chinese billboard chart last time.
I realise that no matter how much effort I put in by asking neighbours to vote[one vote per person ] the song never reaches the top,Now soul_rage , can you tell me the reason why ?
you have also raised good question on certain issue ,however , logic must be incontestable before can be present as fact .
Else do it hold true for the Sun to set in the East ?
quote:
So what are human beings going to do? Starve and die?
You can live up to 300 over years and this thing that plants suddenly can remember pain and sadness wont hold true .so u still can eat plants
what i mentioned is the by-product killings of harvesting plants -pesticide
and chemical fertillisers
You can live up to 300 over years and this thing that plants suddenly can remember pain and sadness wont hold true .so u still can eat plants
what i mentioned is the by-product killings of harvesting plants -pesticide
and chemical fertillisers
However, philosophy is a very grey area, and a lot of teachings can be interpreted in different ways by different people.
Coming back to your views above:
2,500 years ago, Science is nowhere near to what it is today. Who is to say maybe many years later, Science finds that plants do 'react' in a certain way to being fried 'alive', or being steamed 'alive'?
Consciousness is a human way of explaining something in the universe. Its our perspective, and not a perspective from another being or animal. Thus, our perspective may be wrong.
Referring back to your voting by one person. You are now saying that one person's demand for meat is negligible. But another person will tell you that its the accumulation of everyone's demand that results in a huge demand. Every vote counts. Currently, there's this green campaign to get everyone to use less plastic bags, coz every effort counts. By your view above, does it mean that you think one person effort is negligible, so we can just continue to do what we do?
And the Sun rises in the East because we perceived North to be a fixed point at the top of our planet. That's a perception. If you define North to be a fixed point on the bottom of our planet, then the sun rises in the West. -
Originally posted by SnowFlag:
i agree. well, Buddha and the disciples never did eat them in the end either. Alms were collected, and return to the cave where they wash the meat away, and distribute the food Equally, as some disciples might collected no food at all.
Let me compare the olden and modern times.
In Buddha's times, the 5 rules was preached to the monks, who may encountered these situations when they get their alms. The monks don't want to eat the meat in the 1st place.
In modern times, people use the 5 rules to justify themselves to eat the so call clean meat. But the meat intake doesn't reduced.
see the Final teaching of Mahanirvana sutra.
QUOTE
“Lord,” said Kashyapa, “monks, nuns, and lay practitioners all depend on benefactors. When they go for alms and receive food containing meat, what should they do? How should they examine it?”
“They should separate,” the Buddha replied, “the meat from the rest of the food, which should then be washed and then consumed. If it happens that their bowl has been stained by the meat but is not defiled by the evil smell or taste, there is no fault in eating from it. But if someone gives them quantities of meat, let them not accept it. If meat is mingled with their food, let them not eat of it, else they will be at fault. If I were to explain in detail the prohibition of meat and all its rules, there would be no end! But it is now time for me to pass beyond suffering; therefore I have explained it to you only in part.”http://www.shabkar.org/scripture/sutras/mahaparinirvana_sutra4.htm
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QUOTEThe answer is found in research done by the Tibetan monk scholar, Shabkar. He did extensive studies of the sutras and found that the misleading sutras indicate that the Buddha gradually phased out the permission of meat eating. When the Buddha began teaching most of the people followed some version of Hinduism and many of them still ate meat. The Buddha always presented his teachings in the context of his audience, their intelligence and what they were ready for.
http://www.veggiebuddhists.com/
“… One of the greatest obstacles to the birth of bodhichitta in our minds is our craving for meat.” “If there is no meat eater, there will be no animal killer …”
Shabkar Tsogdruk Rangdrol
Food of Bodhisattvas: Buddhist Teachings on Abstaining from Meat
i kind of have the same 'sentiment'.
Bodhisattvas precepts, anyone?
Brahma Net Sutra Moral Code of the Bodhisattvas
http://www.ymba.org/bns/bnscon.htm#major
anyway to summarise, here's from Kunga Namdrol.First of all, most of us are not bhikkus, etc., and so therefore the rules in Vinaya about what sort of meat may or not may not be eaten discussed in those texts are really quite irrelevant to lay Buddhists.
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Then there is the fact that when the Buddha was alive, no one was slaughtering millions of animals a day to be displayed in supermarkets and outright discarded if not sold, nor was there a burgeoning environmental disaster strongly being contributed to by the production of feed grain for animals headed for slaughter.
I would like to think that in this day and age the Buddha would recommend that people not eat meat if they could possible avoid it.
I really don't think that what the Pali Canon or Mahayana sutras say are really that relevant to our choices in this matter. We all know that Vinaya says it's ok to eat certain kinds of meat; that Mahayana sutras say it is strictly negative, and meat-eating is permitted in Vajrayana with certain qualifications. There is really nothing about which we need to debate on these scores.
I further think that solely relying on some religious text to define our conduct around the issue of meat consumption when confronted with the environmental and health issues surrounding the modern consumption of meat is canonical myopia.
In other words, I think the decision concerning whether one eats meat or not must be made from the point of view of modern environmental, health, economic and social concerns. When these factors are taken into consideration it is pretty clear that the practices that are used in producing meat in this day and age are terrible, costly, and that Buddhists should not participate in that economy as much as we can possible avoid it since the buying and selling of meat is quite clearly wrong livelihood.
If you must eat meat: make sure it comes from a humane farm, and that the animal whose flesh you are consuming was slaughtered as kindly as possible (there is no kind form of slaughter in truth). Eat this meat with loving kindness, compassion and gratitude for all those sentient beings whose bodies sustained from you in life after life from time without beginning. And at least twice a month try to refrain from eating any meat at all. If you are a Mahayana practitioner, then please try to observe the Mahayana fast day vows on the full moon and new moon, refraining from eating any meat on those days.
When it comes to dairy, also be aware that most dairy is produced under horrible conditions. Please avoid dairy from factory farms, and only buy dairy from confirmed organic humane dairy farms. And yes, spend more if you have to [just consider how much food a month you probably waste already]. You can consider it a kind of dana to mother Earth.
When it comes to vegetables, please be aware that there are tremendously harmful practices in agriculture i.e. the use of chemical fertilizers, pesticides and herbicides. Please buy organic foods, don't waste your food [cook and freeze what you can't eat today], and generally please understand that while the buying and selling of organic food is not wrong livelihood, conventional produce is not virtuous food at all.
Please learn how to grow some of your own food. Please stop using plastic. Please recycle.
Please be aware.
Kunga Namdrol -
BTW Snowflag has a point that layperson's relation to meat is different cos the monks simply eat them, laypersons buy them (even if it is frozen meat). I believe that is why lay persons wld be more at fault when compared to monks (i.e theravada, tibetan) if they do eat meat. Nevertheless if we cannot stop eating meat altogether, we must do our best to cut down, and furthermore, to avoid direct killing (i.e ordering live seafood) and only eat the 5 clean meat.
And to give rise to bodhicitta and practise the bodhisattva way, we have to relinquish meat eating. -
Namdrol's post is thoughtful. Thanks for sharing.
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Yes indeed and everyone should read it through carefully.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Namdrol's post is thoughtful. Thanks for sharing.
Actually I do find Snowflag's views to be relevant for a Buddhist. It is best we can avoid meat consumption totally. If we cannot give up greed for taste, then we will always look for ways to eat meat, indirectly or otherwise, which eventually contribute to killing.
But of cos AEN's exchange with Snowflag is rather more on which has lesser karmic effect on consuming meat through direct n indirect killing, and the intentions of actions.
As Buddhists, we should try to avoid meat consumption n become vegetarians one day. -
Tibetan monks have to eat meat because vegetables are scarce in Tibet and the meat proteins help them acclimatize to the enviroment but in India, they changed back to being vegetarians.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:BTW Snowflag has a point that layperson's relation to meat is different cos the monks simply eat them, laypersons buy them (even if it is frozen meat). I believe that is why lay persons wld be more at fault when compared to monks (i.e theravada, tibetan) if they do eat meat. Nevertheless if we cannot stop eating meat altogether, we must do our best to cut down, and furthermore, to avoid direct killing (i.e ordering live seafood) and only eat the 5 clean meat.
And to give rise to bodhicitta and practise the bodhisattva way, we have to relinquish meat eating.
Technically, meat proteins are much more quickly broken down to amino acids compared to vegetable proteins hence those who do a lot of physical work tend to eat meat to keep up with the muscle replacement. Meat must also be taken fresh to prevent contamination.
The Dalai Lama has in fact spoken on this topic before that Buddhists, lay or ordained member, has to consumed according to their living circumstances or they would be ill-treating their own body. -
here's updated information.
Intrviews w/ Tibetans on meat
http://www.shabkar.org/download/pdf/Nonviolence_In_Tibetan_Culture_Ch2.pdf
http://www.shabkar.org/vegetarianism/index.htm
Also, to put this matter to rest, the Dalai Lama is vegetarian at home, but not neccesarily when he is travelling.His HolinessÂ’ kitchen in Dharamsala is vegetarian. However, during visits outside of Dharamsala, His Holiness is not necessarily vegetarian.
http://www.dalailama.com/page.52.htm
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here's what HHDL really feel:
QUOTE
And once the Dalai Lama told me that he wanted to become a vegetarian. Of course his doctors said; ‘O, no, no that will be so terrible for your health if you stop eating meat.’ Then he had to negotiate with these doctors and he told his Tibetan doctors: ‘So, because you treat me I cannot disobey you, I will listen to you but we will make some kind of deal.
The first month of the year is miracle month of Buddha, the fourth month the birth of Buddha, the six month the month of the turning of the Wheel of Dharma, the ninth month Buddha’s descending from Tushita heaven– these four months I will not eat meat. And every month there is full moon, new moon, and the eighth day, they are all very special and you cannot force me to eat meat on these days. For the rest I will eat meat, but on one condition – I will eat meat every other day’. So he managed to avoid eating meat for eight months a year.
Then last year the Dalai Lama told to all his attendants and everyone that he had realised that when they served him chicken that they had to slaughter for him. And he told them that from that day on he didn’t want to have any meat in his kitchen. And His Holiness told Kyabje Trulshik Rinpoche that when he was requesting his monks in the south of India not to eat meat something became so vivid, the suffering of all the animals, that he could not continue to speak at that moment and he stopped and the tears came from his eyes. But recently he became sick and he had terrible, terrible pain in his stomach and of course there was the pain but the tears didn’t come from his eyes. And he asked Kyabje Trulshik Rinpoche; ‘What do you think? Why, when I was talking about the animals I really couldn’t bear it, but when I was sick I didn’t cry.’ And Kyabje Trulshik Rinpoche said; ‘His Holiness, when you were talking about the sufferings of the animals you really felt this from your heart and when you had this pain, you maybe felt this physically but not from your heart.’
http://www.shabkar.org/download/pdf/Tulku_Pema_Wangyal.pdf
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Right now, HHDL is living mainly in India most of the time, hence he can afford a vegetarian diet. Fresh vegetables in Tibet is worth their weight in gold, please tell the lamas in Tibet to eat vegetables. Duh...Originally posted by sinweiy:here's what HHDL really feel:
QUOTE
And once the Dalai Lama told me that he wanted to become a vegetarian. Of course his doctors said; ‘O, no, no that will be so terrible for your health if you stop eating meat.’ Then he had to negotiate with these doctors and he told his Tibetan doctors: ‘So, because you treat me I cannot disobey you, I will listen to you but we will make some kind of deal.
The first month of the year is miracle month of Buddha, the fourth month the birth of Buddha, the six month the month of the turning of the Wheel of Dharma, the ninth month Buddha’s descending from Tushita heaven– these four months I will not eat meat. And every month there is full moon, new moon, and the eighth day, they are all very special and you cannot force me to eat meat on these days. For the rest I will eat meat, but on one condition – I will eat meat every other day’. So he managed to avoid eating meat for eight months a year.
Then last year the Dalai Lama told to all his attendants and everyone that he had realised that when they served him chicken that they had to slaughter for him. And he told them that from that day on he didn’t want to have any meat in his kitchen. And His Holiness told Kyabje Trulshik Rinpoche that when he was requesting his monks in the south of India not to eat meat something became so vivid, the suffering of all the animals, that he could not continue to speak at that moment and he stopped and the tears came from his eyes. But recently he became sick and he had terrible, terrible pain in his stomach and of course there was the pain but the tears didn’t come from his eyes. And he asked Kyabje Trulshik Rinpoche; ‘What do you think? Why, when I was talking about the animals I really couldn’t bear it, but when I was sick I didn’t cry.’ And Kyabje Trulshik Rinpoche said; ‘His Holiness, when you were talking about the sufferings of the animals you really felt this from your heart and when you had this pain, you maybe felt this physically but not from your heart.’
http://www.shabkar.org/download/pdf/Tulku_Pema_Wangyal.pdf
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if there is a demand, there will be supply. they appeared shocked at the sight of the killing, but minutes later, they would be enjoying the feast.Originally posted by qrex:yesterday at some teppanyaki restaurant i was at, there was a lobster on a tray behind the chef. its moving one of its leg but very slowly meaning its still alive. then the chef put it upside down on the cooking area n sliced it in half in one clean movement. u see the people sitting around very shocked. then he quickly covered the lobster with a round metal bowl thingy. -
you found it not cruel? imagine you are the one running on the red hot charcoal? and had having your legs cut off?Originally posted by dangerboi:
I find it funny and not cruel though. I ate goose's legs in china few years ago. The goose were made to run in an enclosed area. They had to run around as they were on red hot burning charcoal. LOL. Having being cooked, their legs were chopped off. Can you imagine a live goose without legs?
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Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
i noe. Though...
Right now, HHDL is living mainly in India most of the time, hence he can afford a vegetarian diet. Fresh vegetables in Tibet is worth their weight in gold, please tell the lamas in Tibet to eat vegetables. Duh...
there could be a huge change coming:
HE Kyabje Lati Rinpoche on vegetarianism
Q: In recent years, we heard that there are plans to convert the diet of the three great Gelugpa monasteries into full vegetarianism. What is Rinpoche's view of this plan and for that matter, for Buddhist monasteries in general, to become full vegetarian?
Rinpoche: I am happy the monastic authorities want to make this huge change. That is really appreciable. I really support this type of change coming up.
Q: Why does Rinpoche feel that it is better to be vegetarian?
Rinpoche: If the number of people who consume meat is reduced, it then automatically reduces the number of people who kill the animals to meet the demand. In this way, by becoming vegetarian, we contribute, to some extend, the reduction in the number of animals killed.
Q: Why is it then in old Tibet that the monasteries are rarely fully vegetarian?
Rinpoche: In Tibet, there are many people who are strict vegetarian. Even in the big monasteries where there are huge gatherings of monks, they never eat non-vegetarian food.
In the monk's individual quarters, though, there might be some monks who eat meat as food.
Vegetarianism is something not very new in Tibetan society. Generally, in the old Tibetan society, most of the people try to avoid taking meat specifically killed to feed individual person. This is evident in very level of Tibetan society. Even in the scriptures of the Buddha, we have to avoid taking such meat which is killed specially just to feed ourselves. The texts prohibit us from taking this type of meat. That is the common way of practice and instructions in the Buddha's teachings. Especially in the Mahayana teachings when a persondoes intensive practice of Bodhicitta, they are advised or prescribed to avoid taking meat.
HE Kyabje Lati Pinpoche is one of HH Dalai Lama's spiritual advisers.
http://www.shabkar.org/vegetarianism/index.htm
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Meat must be eaten fresh, especially seafood. Technically if the chef is smart and wants to kill the lobster mercifully, just dump the lobster onto the hotplate and roast it to death with the weighted lid before cutting it up. Lobsters have a different nervous system and wouldn't know it's being roasted and hence no pain.Originally posted by jacqn:if there is a demand, there will be supply. they appeared shocked at the sight of the killing, but minutes later, they would be enjoying the feast. -
Who's going to pay for the fresh vegetables? In India, that's not so great a problem, but in Tibet, please tell me how is it possible it to sponsor such a diet program? Next, note that there are people who must have animal protein in their diet for healthy living and extreme living conditions.Originally posted by sinweiy:i noe. Though...
there could be a huge change coming:
HE Kyabje Lati Rinpoche on vegetarianism
Q: In recent years, we heard that there are plans to convert the diet of the three great Gelugpa monasteries into full vegetarianism. What is Rinpoche's view of this plan and for that matter, for Buddhist monasteries in general, to become full vegetarian?
Rinpoche: I am happy the monastic authorities want to make this huge change. That is really appreciable. I really support this type of change coming up.
Q: Why does Rinpoche feel that it is better to be vegetarian?
Rinpoche: If the number of people who consume meat is reduced, it then automatically reduces the number of people who kill the animals to meet the demand. In this way, by becoming vegetarian, we contribute, to some extend, the reduction in the number of animals killed.
Q: Why is it then in old Tibet that the monasteries are rarely fully vegetarian?
Rinpoche: In Tibet, there are many people who are strict vegetarian. Even in the big monasteries where there are huge gatherings of monks, they never eat non-vegetarian food.
In the monk's individual quarters, though, there might be some monks who eat meat as food.
Vegetarianism is something not very new in Tibetan society. Generally, in the old Tibetan society, most of the people try to avoid taking meat specifically killed to feed individual person. This is evident in very level of Tibetan society. Even in the scriptures of the Buddha, we have to avoid taking such meat which is killed specially just to feed ourselves. The texts prohibit us from taking this type of meat. That is the common way of practice and instructions in the Buddha's teachings. Especially in the Mahayana teachings when a persondoes intensive practice of Bodhicitta, they are advised or prescribed to avoid taking meat.
HE Kyabje Lati Pinpoche is one of HH Dalai Lama's spiritual advisers.
http://www.shabkar.org/vegetarianism/index.htm
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Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
not sure, i think they are working on it. buddhists(not the whole people of Tibet) can ownself grow or something.
Who's going to pay for the fresh vegetables? In India, that's not so great a problem, but in Tibet, please tell me how is it possible it to sponsor such a diet program?Next, note that there are people who must have animal protein in their diet for healthy living and extreme living conditions.
that's a misleaded 'brain washed' information.
Protein Myth
http://sg.search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A3xsVSP5XFdHKAEBmJwj4gt.?p=Protein+Myth&y=All+the+Web&fr=&ei=UTF-8
http://www.pcrm.org/health/Info_on_Veg_Diets/protein.html
http://soystache.com/plant.htm
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how u define as "..kill the lobster mercifully.."? & ".. wouldnt know it's being roasted and hence no pain."?Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Meat must be eaten fresh, especially seafood. Technically if the chef is smart and wants to kill the lobster mercifully, just dump the lobster onto the hotplate and roast it to death with the weighted lid before cutting it up. Lobsters have a different nervous system and wouldn't know it's being roasted and hence no pain. -
sinweiy, kindly note you are having brainwashed information. The first two websites indicate that vegetables and legumes do provide all the protein needed but not the bio-availability rates. In fact, there was a documentary on National Geography 2 years ago showing why humans who are in certain health and living environments need to take in meat or there will be certain dangerous side effects.Originally posted by sinweiy:that's a misleaded 'brain washed' information.
Protein Myth
http://sg.search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A3xsVSP5XFdHKAEBmJwj4gt.?p=Protein+Myth&y=All+the+Web&fr=&ei=UTF-8
http://www.pcrm.org/health/Info_on_Veg_Diets/protein.html
http://soystache.com/plant.htm
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Technically according to marine biologists, the fastest way to kill shellfish is to heat up the surroundings, note that their nervous system is different as they can't detect ambient temperature so they won't know.Originally posted by bjork:how u define as "..kill the lobster mercifully.."? & ".. wouldnt know it's being roasted and hence no pain."? -
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
ok i'd asked a vegan, who suggested to :-
sinweiy, kindly note you are having brainwashed information. The first two websites indicate that vegetables and legumes do provide all the protein needed but not the bio-availability rates. In fact, there was a documentary on National Geography 2 years ago showing why humans who are in certain health and living environments need to take in meat or there will be certain dangerous side effects.
Try the American Dietetic Association. It is the professional organization for Dietitians, who are not, as a group, particularly pro-vegetarian. Yet, their Position Paper on Vegetarian Diets has some excellent information that, considering the source, must be considered unbiased.
Position Paper on Vegetarian Diets
http://www.eatright.org/ada/files/vegnp.pdf
Search the document for "protein" to find the relevant section.Health Implication
so what animal protein have, Vegetarian diets also have.
Vegetarian diets offer a number of advantages, including lower levels of saturated fat, cholesterol, and animal protein and higher levels of carbohydrates, fiber, magnesium, boron, folate, antioxidants such as vitamins c and e, caroteniods, and phytochemicals (27-30).
imh, those who can't take it, is just not enough time for adaptation.
List of :-World Champion Vegetarian Athletes
and not to mention shaolin monks!
Carl Lewis, Olympic gold medalist in track and field source.
Ridgely Abele (winner of 8 national championships in karate)
Dave Scott (USA) 6 time Ironman triathlon champ
Andreas Cahling (Sw) champion body builder & Olympic gold medalist in ski jump
Sixto Linares (world record holder, 24-hour triathlon)
Bill Manetti (USA) power lift champ
Edwin Moses (USA) Olympic gold medallist & world record holder in track
Martina Navratilova (USA) tennis champ
Paavo Nurmi (Fin) runner & winner of 9 Olympic medals and 20 world records
Bill Pearl (USA) 4 time Mr Universe
Robert Parish (professional basketball star)
Bill Pickering (world record holder, swimmer)
Stan Price (world weight lifting record holder)
Murray Rose (swimmer, Olympic gold medalist)
Surya Bonaly (Fr) Olympic figure skater
Chris Campbell (USA) Olympic wrestling Champion
Cheryl Marek and Estelle Gray (world record holders, cross-country tandem cycling)
Desmond Howard (USA) pro football & Heisman trophy winner
Peter Hussing (Gr) boxing champ
Billie Jean King (USA) tennis champ
Ingra Manecke (Gr) discus throw champ and many more Olympic Champions....
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Misguided information and biased opinion, it is true vegan and vegetarians do get all their proper dietary needs but not everyone train themselves or do physical work to near-total muscle failure or work in high altitude low temperature environments or require dietary needs in animal protein. We need to compare absorption time between plant protein and animal protein and it has been proven many times before that plant protein is absorbed slower but provide a more complex and wholesome mix of fibre, protein... etc compared to animal but animal protein is more readily taken in by the human body.Originally posted by sinweiy:so what animal protein have, Vegetarian diets also have.
imh, those who can't take it, is just not enough time for adaptation.
List of :-
quote:
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World Champion Vegetarian Athletes
Carl Lewis, Olympic gold medalist in track and field source.
Ridgely Abele (winner of 8 national championships in karate)
Dave Scott (USA) 6 time Ironman triathlon champ
Andreas Cahling (Sw) champion body builder & Olympic gold medalist in ski jump
Sixto Linares (world record holder, 24-hour triathlon)
Bill Manetti (USA) power lift champ
Edwin Moses (USA) Olympic gold medallist & world record holder in track
Martina Navratilova (USA) tennis champ
Paavo Nurmi (Fin) runner & winner of 9 Olympic medals and 20 world records
Bill Pearl (USA) 4 time Mr Universe
Robert Parish (professional basketball star)
Bill Pickering (world record holder, swimmer)
Stan Price (world weight lifting record holder)
Murrin your ay Rose (swimmer, Olympic gold medalist)
Surya Bonaly (Fr) Olympic figure skater
Chris Campbell (USA) Olympic wrestling Champion
Cheryl Marek and Estelle Gray (world record holders, cross-country tandem cycling)
Desmond Howard (USA) pro football & Heisman trophy winner
Peter Hussing (Gr) boxing champ
Billie Jean King (USA) tennis champ
Ingra Manecke (Gr) discus throw champ and many more Olympic Champions....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and not to mention shaolin monks!
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Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
i see adaptability.
...snip..
our human Anatomy weren't meant to be CARNIVORE non OMNIVORE to begin with.
http://www.eatveg.com/anatomy.htm
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Mdm, are we doing the right comparisions? Did we compare against the chimpanzees, orang utans, bononbos? They are mainly herbivores but always suppliment their diet with meat. Considering the protein intake versus muscle exhaustion and social competition, it is required to do so. Human are the closest living relations in anatomy to the above apes but nevertheless we are never primary carnivores but anatomical omnivores as we usually take in vegetables with meat in our diet.Originally posted by sinweiy:i see adaptability.
our human Anatomy weren't meant to be CARNIVORE non OMNIVORE to begin with.
http://www.eatveg.com/anatomy.htm
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