My understanding of rebirth through physics
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I think for certain people, they can contemplate and grasp a basic concept of rebirth if they think along the lines of the first law of thermodynamics which states 'Energy is neither created nor destroyed, it can only be converted from one form to another”.
'On Earth, the incoming energy from the sun is in relative balance to the amount of heat loss from our planet. This holds true for the universe as a whole. In other words, over the years the amount of energy in our universe has remained constant. While energy is constant, its form and quality are continually changing..'
http://www.uwsp.edu/cnr/wcee/keep/Mod1/Rules/ThermoLaws.htm
My limited understanding is our consciousness is something akin to energy. It cannot be created nor destroyed, but transformed from one form to another.
So rebirth is a process that involves the 'conversion' of our consciousness from its previous existence of one particular form to another 'new' consciousness. The special thing is this new consciousness can inherit characteristics or behaviour of the previous one, but yet considered different in form.
So it is neither exactly new or old in the absolute sense.
It is this law of physics that helps to me to roughly grasp the concept of rebirth after a long time of reflection and reading up.
Other types of scientific explanations supporting rebirth concepts are too 'chim' for me to understand at all. haha. -
It can be divided
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Originally posted by Spnw07:
Yes can say so
I think for certain people, they can contemplate and grasp a basic concept of rebirth if they think along the lines of the first law of thermodynamics which states [b]'Energy is neither created nor destroyed, it can only be converted from one form to another”.
'On Earth, the incoming energy from the sun is in relative balance to the amount of heat loss from our planet. This holds true for the universe as a whole. In other words, over the years the amount of energy in our universe has remained constant. While energy is constant, its form and quality are continually changing..'
http://www.uwsp.edu/cnr/wcee/keep/Mod1/Rules/ThermoLaws.htm
My limited understanding is our consciousness is something akin to energy. It cannot be created nor destroyed, but transformed from one form to another.
So rebirth is a process that involves the 'conversion' of our consciousness from its previous existence of one particular form to another 'new' consciousness. The special thing is this new consciousness can inherit characteristics or behaviour of the previous one, but yet considered different in form.
So it is neither exactly new or old in the absolute sense.
It is this law of physics that helps to me to roughly grasp the concept of rebirth after a long time of reflection and reading up.
Other types of scientific explanations supporting rebirth concepts are too 'chim' for me to understand at all. haha.[/b]
However we should also emphasize that conciousness arises moment to moment as conditioned/dependent arising.
When this is, that is. The whole 12 interdependent links of origination arises in one moment, moment to moment.
When this is not, that is not. When this ceases, that ceases. When ignorance cease, the whole chain of the 12 links of dependent origination ceases along.
But all along the fundamental unconditioned 'substance'/essence is everpresent as the nature of all condition -- just like H2O is present and all pervading whether it is a waveless ocean or an ocean full of waves, H2O manifest as all conditions in the ocean.. This fundamental reality is fundamental and irreducible, and all manifestation are the expressions of that.
Longchen, have I got it right?
However... we should take note not to conceptualise consciousness as being a constant factor or entity... every arising is an arising of Consciousness.. every arising is an arising of Reality... there is no 'THE consciousness', but each moment is a new reality, a new consciousness, manifestation of luminous-emptiness inseperable, just like h2o of the ocean. -
meaningless offtopic message removed
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Hey AEN, watch it. Since you like to talk so much nonsense without reality, let me explain some basic physics laws to you.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:meaningless offtopic message removed
We know that energy cannot be created nor destroyed but do you know energy can be rendered unusable? This is what we call 'waste energy' which is well-known in Chaos Theory as time passes and more changes occur from the original state, more energy is rendered chaotic or unusable. So technically, if conciousness is like usable energy, then rebirths will be getting lesser and lesser as time passes. Then why is the human population increasing? There should be less human population. -
As long as there are karma, which is volitional action, consciousness will keep on going.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Hey AEN, watch it. Since you like to talk so much nonsense without reality, let me explain some basic physics laws to you.
We know that energy cannot be created nor destroyed but do you know energy can be rendered unusable? This is what we call 'waste energy' which is well-known in Chaos Theory as time passes and more changes occur from the original state, more energy is rendered chaotic or unusable. So technically, if conciousness is like usable energy, then rebirths will be getting lesser and lesser as time passes. Then why is the human population increasing? There should be less human population.
Increasing human population does not mean increasing new consciousness, it just means beings from other realms and possibly other planets have come to inhabit and be reborn as humans in this planet. -
Then the analogy to energy is wrong, which was in the posting that you foolishly deleted.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:As long as there are karma, which is volitional action, consciousness will keep on going.
Increasing human population does not mean increasing new consciousness, it just means beings from other realms and possibly other planets have come to inhabit and be reborn as humans in this planet. -
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
u want to cite the info on the 'waste energy' ?
We know that energy cannot be created nor destroyed but do you know energy can be rendered unusable? This is what we call 'waste energy' which is well-known in Chaos Theory as time passes and more changes occur from the original state, more energy is rendered chaotic or unusable. So technically, if conciousness is like usable energy, then rebirths will be getting lesser and lesser as time passes. Then why is the human population increasing? There should be less human population.
i'm trying to get u, if all energy are moving toward wasted energy, then Chaos theory become linear and deterministic? hmm..
and so if human population is increasing, then it proof that energy are Not moving toward wasted energy? hmm...contradicting.
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energy rendered unusable
reminds me of icchantika.
http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=38391
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I don't see why it's wrong.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Then the analogy to energy is wrong, which was in the posting that you foolishly deleted. -
I think should be correctOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:Yes can say so
However we should also emphasize that conciousness arises moment to moment as conditioned/dependent arising.
When this is, that is. The whole 12 interdependent links of origination arises in one moment, moment to moment.
When this is not, that is not. When this ceases, that ceases. When ignorance cease, the whole chain of the 12 links of dependent origination ceases along.
But all along the fundamental unconditioned 'substance'/essence is everpresent as the nature of all condition -- just like H2O is present and all pervading whether it is a waveless ocean or an ocean full of waves, H2O manifest as all conditions in the ocean.. This fundamental reality is fundamental and irreducible, and all manifestation are the expressions of that.
Longchen, have I got it right?
However... we should take note not to conceptualise consciousness as being a constant factor or entity... every arising is an arising of Consciousness.. every arising is an arising of Reality... there is no 'THE consciousness', but each moment is a new reality, a new consciousness, manifestation of luminous-emptiness inseperable, just like h2o of the ocean. -
I am saying the threadstarter picked the wrong analogy to present his ideas. I got it from Hawkings "A Brief History of Time" Chp 3 if I remember correctly.Originally posted by sinweiy:u want to cite the info on the 'waste energy' ?
i'm trying to get u, if all energy are moving toward wasted energy, then Chaos theory become linear and deterministic? hmm..
and so if human population is increasing, then it proof that energy are Not moving toward wasted energy? hmm...contradicting.
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Chaos has a pattern but within the pattern lies no pattern. -
sinweiy managed to understand my point of view on where is the analogy is wrong. You are have problems understanding O' levels basic science.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I don't see why it's wrong. -
I told you, as long as the karmic momentum continues, it can only strengthen, not reduce, the individual karmic energy of that individual mindstream.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:sinweiy managed to understand my point of view on where is the analogy is wrong. You are have problems understanding O' levels basic science.
The waves on the ocean will gradually subside if there is little wind. But if there is strong wind or hurricane, the waves can only grow stronger and stronger. The wind = karmic conditions. -
That undermines the first rule in thermodynamics. Energy can be created but not be destroyed? Stop equalizing metaphysical energies with physical ones.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I told you, as long as the karmic momentum continues, it can only strengthen, not reduce, the individual karmic energy of that individual mindstream.
The waves on the ocean will gradually subside if there is little wind. But if there is strong wind or hurricane, the waves can only grow stronger and stronger. The wind = karmic conditions. -
Originally posted by Spnw07:
While it is possible to interpret rebirth like this... you seem to have some confusion with "consciousness".
I think for certain people, they can contemplate and grasp a basic concept of rebirth if they think along the lines of the first law of thermodynamics which states [b]'Energy is neither created nor destroyed, it can only be converted from one form to another”.
'On Earth, the incoming energy from the sun is in relative balance to the amount of heat loss from our planet. This holds true for the universe as a whole. In other words, over the years the amount of energy in our universe has remained constant. While energy is constant, its form and quality are continually changing..'
http://www.uwsp.edu/cnr/wcee/keep/Mod1/Rules/ThermoLaws.htm
My limited understanding is our consciousness is something akin to energy. It cannot be created nor destroyed, but transformed from one form to another.
So rebirth is a process that involves the 'conversion' of our consciousness from its previous existence of one particular form to another 'new' consciousness. The special thing is this new consciousness can inherit characteristics or behaviour of the previous one, but yet considered different in form.
So it is neither exactly new or old in the absolute sense.
It is this law of physics that helps to me to roughly grasp the concept of rebirth after a long time of reflection and reading up.
Other types of scientific explanations supporting rebirth concepts are too 'chim' for me to understand at all. haha.[/b]
As far as science knows at the moment, consciousness is an emergent of the interactions of billions of neurons in loops of incredible speeds... -
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
internet cannot find le, if so famous.
[b]
I am saying the threadstarter picked the wrong analogy to present his ideas. I got it from Hawkings "A Brief History of Time" Chp 3 if I remember correctly.
u with "Energy IS created and not destroyed" or
"Energy is neither created nor destroyed"?
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Goes under entropy, but I am explaining in very layman language.Originally posted by sinweiy:internet cannot find le, if so famous.
u with "Energy IS created and not destroyed" or
"Energy is neither created nor destroyed"?
/\ -
He is talking about the Buddhist metaphysical consciousness. AEN's linguistic skills needs improvement.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:While it is possible to interpret rebirth like this... you seem to have some confusion with "consciousness".
As far as science knows at the moment, consciousness is an emergent of the interactions of billions of neurons in loops of incredible speeds... -
If everything so easily understood, then you don't need to take Masters and Doctorate liao.Originally posted by sinweiy:internet cannot find le, if so famous.
u with "Energy IS created and not destroyed" or
"Energy is neither created nor destroyed"?
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Energy cannot never be created nor destroyed but it can be wasted. Chim huh? -
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
ok, read-ed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy
Goes under entropy, but I am explaining in very layman language.
but anything to do with dark matter/energy and anti-matter?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter
maybe u'll find this interesting, "maybe":-
http://www.forshang.org/005blackholegalaxy/blackholegalaxye.htmStudent: So, are all these actually the same as "Grand Unified Theory," the anti-matter, the anti-universe sort of things?
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Master: These are related to anti-matter and dark matter. What is dark matter? The dark matter is the cause and effect. Everything you do, which is a "cause," becomes a dark matter in your internal Dharma realms. The anti-matter is the karmic force and karmic retribution manifested. You bark at people and that eventually will come back to you. That is the anti-matter.
http://www.forshang.org/017timehasweight/timehasweight_e.htm
E = MC2 (1) (physical field)
E = 1/M C2 (2) (spiritual field)
...
EL particle = 0¡E¡Û (5) ¡@
We once mentioned in reference 3 that when the L particle, being the original source of spiritual/physical phenomena, derives energy, it includes or harmonizes comprehensively all the various forms of mass and energy, from zero to infinity, into its own essence, such as: the mass form - positive mass, negative mass, dark mass; or the energy forms ¡V positive energy, negative energy¡K, various time form (positive time, negative time, real time, and imaginary time, etc.), space form, and space-time composition (such as positive/negative speed, etc.) Then, to take a look from another perspective, as the Buddha nature - the L particle includes everything, it cannot be confined by any time or space. This is really the cause being the effect simultaneously, the unity of time and space, and the incessant turning of Dharma wheels.
it talk abt spiritual and physical field using Formula.
chim oso.
ps: but please Note. for buddhists who are interested in the site, only go through the physic/scientific part as an interest pov. don't have to believe the Apocalypse part of it.
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Originally posted by sinweiy:
You know the forshang site is full of nonsense that will make any pure science student laugh. Photons have electrons.... Only anti-matter make black holes.... Claims that negative time exists...... Please retake your O'levels Pure Physics paper for anyone silly enough to believe whatever is in the ForShang website.
http://www.forshang.org/017timehasweight/timehasweight_e.htm
it talk abt spiritual and physical field using Formula.
chim oso.
[b]ps: but please Note. for buddhists who are interested in the site, only go through the physic/scientific part as an interest pov. don't have to believe the Apocalypse part of it.
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I quoted the law of conservation of energy due to a common idea/concept mentioned in most scriptures, "Neither arises/created nor disappears/destroyed."
This is most evident in the Heart Sutra: "Shariputra, all dharmas are empty of characteristics. They are not produced. Not destroyed, not defiled, not pure, and they neither increase nor diminish."
http://www.cttbusa.org/heartsutra/heartsutra.htm -
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
there's Formula involve mah.
You know the forshang site is full of nonsense that will make any pure science student laugh. Photons have electrons.... Only anti-matter make black holes.... Claims that negative time exists...... Please retake your O'levels Pure Physics paper for anyone silly enough to believe whatever is in the ForShang website.
if i want to argue with ur logic, i'll say like u say, "Prove to me beyond doubt, Photons have electrons and anti-matter make black holes? "
u got see with own eyes? or u take on conviction, because the O'levels Pure Physics paper say so?
btw,
people/Writer is PhD level, O'levels of course cannot comprehend.Department of Chemistry, University of Alberta, Canada
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Professor, Department of Pharmacology, Department and Institute of
Pharmacology, National Yang-Ming University, R.O.C.
Chairman and Director, Department and Institute of Pharmacology, National Yang-Ming Univeristy, R.O.C. -
Originally posted by sinweiy:
Yes like to warn readers that the website link belongs to a cult, and do not represent orthodox Buddhist teachings. Please read with discernment. I do agree with HZ that there's alot of nonsense in there.. so which piece of info is good or bad, read with discernment.
[b]ps: but please Note. for buddhists who are interested in the site, only go through the physic/scientific part as an interest pov. don't have to believe the Apocalypse part of it.
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