icchantika
-
The icchantika is, according to some Mahayana Buddhist scriptures, the most base and spiritually deluded of all types of being. The term implies being given over to total hedonism and greed. In the Tathagatagarbha sutras, some of which pay particular attention to the icchantikas, the term is frequently used of those persons who do not believe in the Buddha, his eternal Selfhood and his Dharma (Truth); who seriously transgress against the Buddhist moral codes and vinaya; and who speak disparagingly and dismissively of the reality of the immortal Buddha-nature (Buddha-dhatu) or (essentially the same thing) the Tathagatagarbha present within all beings (including, paradoxically, icchantikas themselves).
The two shortest versions of the Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra - one translated by Fa-xian, and the other a middle-length Tibetan version of the sutra - indicate that the icchantika has so totally severed all his/her roots of goodness that he/she can never attain Liberation and Nirvana. The full-length Dharmakshema version of the Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra, in contrast, insists that even the icchantika can eventually find release into Nirvana, since nothing phenomenal is fixed (including this type of allegedly deluded person) and that change for the better and best is always a possibility. Other scriptures (such as the Lankavatara Sutra) indicate that the icchantikas will be saved through the liberational power of the Buddha - who, it is claimed, will never abandon any being.
-----
sutra that mention a lot on icchantika :
The "Nirvana Sutra" Continued
Chapter Sixteen: On the Bodhisattva
http://www.nirvanasutra.org.uk/nirvanasutrah.htm -
1) In our Dharma Ending Age, the icchantikas are extremely hard to detect?
The six-volume Parinirvana Sutra says, "The extreme is impossible to see.
That is, the extremely evil deeds done by the icchantika are all but impossible to perceive."
"There are also icchantikas who resemble arhats but who commit evil deeds. There are also arhats who resemble icchantikas but display merciful hearts. The icchantikas who look like arhats spend their time slandering the correct and equal sutras to the populace.
The arhats who look like icchantikas, on the other hand, are critical of the voice-hearers and go about preaching the correct and equal sutras. They address the populace, saying, 'You and I are all bodhisattvas. Why? Because each living being possesses the Buddha nature.' But the populace will probably call such
men icchantikas."
2) Unable to perceive and teaches the inappropriate Dharma teaching to the wrong capacity of beings could drive them to become icchantikas?
In the Mahaprinirvana sutra: Shariputra attempted to instruct a blacksmith by teaching him to meditate on the vileness of the body, and to instruct a washerman by teaching him to conduct breath counting meditation. Even though these disciples spent over ninety days in their respective meditations, they did not gain the slightest understanding of the Buddha's teachings. On the contrary,
they took on erroneous views and ended by becoming icchantikas. So the end Buddha came into rescue and swap the teaching in understanding their respective capacity.
3) Icchantikas are totally hopeless case?
In Mahaprinirvana sutra description: "dead trees or stony mountains" that can never bring forth growth.
They are "scorched seeds that, although they encounter the sweet rain," will not grow. "Bright pearls have the power, when put into turbid water, to change it into clear water. . . . But when thrown into the mud of icchantika, they cannot purify it." They are [like persons without a wound on their hands when the sutra says], "If a person with a wound on his hand handles poison, it will enter his body, but it will not enter the body of a person without a wound." "Just as torrents of rain cannot remain suspended in the sky, [so the rain of the Law cannot remain in the sky of icchantika]."
In The Great and Vast Buddha Flower Garland Sutra states: "There are only two places where the Great Medicine King Tree, which is the wisdom of the Thus Come One, will not grow and bring benefit to the world. It will not grow in the vast void that is the deep pit into which persons of the two vehicles fall, or in the profoundly distorted and craving-filled waters wherein drown beings unfit for Buddhahood who destroy
their own roots of goodness."
- Where the Great Medicine King Tree and is the monarch of all the trees that grow in the land of Jambudvipa tree is employed as a metaphor for the Buddha nature, and the fiery pit is used as a metaphor for the mind of persons of the two vehicles, and the watery circle is used as a metaphor for the mind
of icchantikas ¨C for groups of of beings will never attain Buddhahood.
4) Knowledge without faith turn one into icchantikas?
From the Daimoku of Lotus Sutra, Nichiren: ¡°The monk Sunakshatra observed the two hundred and fifty precepts, mastered the four stages of meditation, and was versed in all the twelve divisions of the scriptures, while Devadatta memorized the sixty thousand non-Buddhist teachings and the eighty thousand Buddhist teachings, and could manifest eighteen miraculous powers with his body. And yet it is said that these men, because they had knowledge but no faith, are now in the great citadel of the Avichi hell.¡±
¡°Mahakashyapa and Shariputra on the other hand lacked knowledge but had faith, and the Buddha accordingly predicted that they would become the Thus Come Ones Light Bright and Flower Glow, respectively. The Buddha stated: {If one should harbor doubt and fail to believe, one will fall at once into the evil paths, - Lotus Sutra Chapter 15 }..¡±
5) Killing of icchantikas is not a cardinal sins?
From Mahaparinirvana sutra: "In the past, when the Thus Come One was the ruler of a nation and practiced the way of the bodhisattva, he put to death a number of Brahmans¡Â..There are three degrees of killings: the lower, middle, and upper degrees¡Â.. Good men, if someone were to kill an icchantika, that killing would not fall into any of the three categories just mentioned. Good men, the various Brahmans that I have said were put to death - all of them were in fact icchantikas.¡±
¡°Good men, at that time I cherished the great vehicle teachings in my heart. When I heard the Brahmans slandering these correct and equal sutras, I put them to death on the spot. Good men, as a result of that action, I never thereafter fell into hell."
6) The Lotus Sutra can cure the Icchantikas?
Great master T'ien-t'ai ( Chi-I) in his ¡°Great Concentration and Insight¡± stated: "Neither the Flower Garland Sutra nor the Larger Wisdom Sutra could cure [the plight of these persons of the two vehicles]. The Lotus Sutra alone was able to produce the roots of goodness in those who have nothing more to learn, and
to make it possible for them to attain the Buddha way. Therefore, the sutra is called wonderful ( Ãî, sk. Sad, ch. Miao, jp. Myo ). Again, the icchantikas, or persons of incorrigible disbelief, nevertheless have minds,
and so it is still possible for them to attain Buddhahood. But persons of the two vehicles have annihilated consciousness, and therefore cannot arouse the mind that aspires to enlightenment. And yet the Lotus Sutra can cure them, which is why it is called wonderful .
/\ -
i wonder how, the principle behind the curing?
6) The Lotus Sutra can cure the Icchantikas?
Great master T'ien-t'ai ( Chi-I) in his �gGreat Concentration and Insight�h stated: "Neither the Flower Garland Sutra nor the Larger Wisdom Sutra could cure [the plight of these persons of the two vehicles]. The Lotus Sutra alone was able to produce the roots of goodness in those who have nothing more to learn, and
to make it possible for them to attain the Buddha way. Therefore, the sutra is called wonderful ( sk. Sad, ch. Miao, jp. Myo ). Again, the icchantikas, or persons of incorrigible disbelief, nevertheless have minds,
and so it is still possible for them to attain Buddhahood. But persons of the two vehicles have annihilated consciousness, and therefore cannot arouse the mind that aspires to enlightenment.[B] And yet the Lotus Sutra can cure them[/B], which is why it is called wonderful ( sk. Sad, ch. Miao, jp. Myo ).
/\ -
Tks for sharing such important materials. Everyone here should read through them carefully.
-
The principle is known as blind faith aka conviction. Why? Because just as there many question of this cosmos are unanswerable, the human mind refuses to take the unknown as an answer, hence turning to blind faith and good philosophy to justify his existence.Originally posted by sinweiy:i wonder how, the principle behind the curing?
/\ -
Just to share.Originally posted by sinweiy:i wonder how, the principle behind the curing?
/\
I think this idea of curing the icchantika is primarily base on Chapter 10 of Lotus Sutra (LS). Chap 10 talks about Sakyamuni Buddha commissioning (not sure is it the appropriate translation for shou ji) Devadetta in becoming Devaraja Tathagata, despite that he was in avici hell for making Buddha to bleed. Sakyamuni Buddha then went on to talk about how He had benefitted from one of Devadetta's past lives. But we have to keep in mind that in Devadetta's lifetime, he was not sincere in joining the Sangha as well. The Truth was presented to Devadetta but not only did he not believe in it, with ego so bloated that he had blinded himself, plot to take over Buddha's position by branching off to start his own order and the four attempted murder on Buddha.
Compare to people who don't know Dhamma nowadays, if we are to put them on the icchantika standard, they are really nothing as compared to Devadetta. Despite all these, he still received the commission by Sakyamuni Buddha Himself.
Prior to the Lotus Sutra, Buddha preached the Sutra of Immeasurable Essence (Wu Liang Yi Jing), if my memory doesn't fail me, Sakyamuni Buddha said that the most important of His Teachings is going to be revealed. Which eventually lead to the Lotus Sutra.
If you go by Tiantai school of thoughts, they always refer Lotus Sutra as part of the Threefold Lotus Sutra, having the Sutra of Immeasurable Essence as the opening, Lotus Sutra as the core and Sutra of Observing the Practice of Bodhisattva Universally Worthy (Guan Pu Xian Pu Sa Xing Fa Jing, eh I know my translations sound weird haha).
At least to my understanding, the purpose of the Lotus Sutra, besides revealing that Sakyamuni Buddha is the incarnate of Dhammakaya (Nichiren Shonin greatly emphasized on this), it is a Sutra that is in attempt to side aside the differences among the 3 vehicles (sravaka, pratyaka-buddha, bodhisattva) and it is suppose to inspire and encourage to have the spirit of never-ending practice (in Chapter 16, Sakyamuni Buddha told Matrieya Bodhisattva that the time Sakyamuni Buddha spend on practising the bodhisattva path is double the time of His lifespan) to practitioners of the 'so-call' lesser 2 vehicles. Where Sakyamuni Buddha said that there is only one path He was teaching, no second or third.
So I think the cure is only that icchantika to take faith in the Triplegem and practice the Dhamma sincerely and with perseverence. In Nichiren Buddhism, the beautiful thing about their Lotus Precept is to practice the spirit of the whole 28 chapters of LS. And probably through this earnest practice in the 28 chapters, we may then transform an icchantika. I'm not sure how Tiantai think. I read more about Nichiren's idea than Tiantai.
=) -
I don't the death is meant to be taken literally. Buddhism ideal liberation is to end rebirth, no birth means no death. Icchantika don't know Dhamma, so they have no way to end rebirth. So they will keep on experience death in many more lifetimes to come.Originally posted by sinweiy:[i]5) Killing of icchantikas is not a cardinal sins?
From Mahaparinirvana sutra: "In the past, when the Thus Come One was the ruler of a nation and practiced the way of the bodhisattva, he put to death a number of Brahmans¡Â..There are three degrees of killings: the lower, middle, and upper degrees¡Â.. Good men, if someone were to kill an icchantika, that killing would not fall into any of the three categories just mentioned. Good men, the various Brahmans that I have said were put to death - all of them were in fact icchantikas.¡±
¡°Good men, at that time I cherished the great vehicle teachings in my heart. When I heard the Brahmans slandering these correct and equal sutras, I put them to death on the spot. Good men, as a result of that action, I never thereafter fell into hell."
/\
This is how I see it lah. -
hmm, don't seem to work even if they were show the dharma. they will still think it's nonsense and upside down.
anyway the principle is ok for them to slander. funny it may seem, but that's the principle.
A bond formed with the Lotus Sutra (or i think any triple jewel will also work) by opposing or slandering it. One who opposes them still form a relationship with them by virtue of opposition, and will thereby be interested in attain Buddhahood eventually when the karma is exhausted.
the most unfortunate ones are those who had no chance to encounter Dharma.
/\ -
I think somehow everyone has encounter the Dhamma. Just that it varies in degree and in label. Dhamma doesn't has to mean to be Buddhism. Probably somewhere in third world country, there are still people caring for their family, those nitty gritty virtues, I won't dismiss them saying these are not Dhamma.Originally posted by sinweiy:hmm, don't seem to work even if they were show the dharma. they will still think it's nonsense and upside down.
anyway the principle is ok for them to slander. funny it may seem, but that's the principle.
A bond formed with the Lotus Sutra (or i think any triple jewel will also work) by opposing or slandering it. One who opposes them still form a relationship with them by virtue of opposition, and will thereby be interested in attain Buddhahood eventually when the karma is exhausted.
the most unfortunate ones are those who had no chance to encounter Dharma.
/\
And the point is that, everyone has so many past lives, it is quite impossible to say one has not encounter the Dhamma. -
Technically it is not that Icchantika don't know about Dharma but cannot know about it.Originally posted by yamizi:I don't the death is meant to be taken literally. Buddhism ideal liberation is to end rebirth, no birth means no death. Icchantika don't know Dhamma, so they have no way to end rebirth. So they will keep on experience death in many more lifetimes to come.
This is how I see it lah. -
Know why it doesn't work?Originally posted by sinweiy:hmm, don't seem to work even if they were show the dharma. they will still think it's nonsense and upside down.
anyway the principle is ok for them to slander. funny it may seem, but that's the principle.
A bond formed with the Lotus Sutra (or i think any triple jewel will also work) by opposing or slandering it. One who opposes them still form a relationship with them by virtue of opposition, and will thereby be interested in attain Buddhahood eventually when the karma is exhausted.
the most unfortunate ones are those who had no chance to encounter Dharma.
/\
Simple answer is no faith hence no effect on their lives thus Buddhadharma to them is false and unreal and it is fine to slander a lie. -
I doubt your idea of cure will work as a icchantika cannot even take faith.Originally posted by yamizi:Just to share.
I think this idea of curing the icchantika is primarily base on Chapter 10 of Lotus Sutra (LS). Chap 10 talks about Sakyamuni Buddha commissioning (not sure is it the appropriate translation for shou ji) Devadetta in becoming Devaraja Tathagata, despite that he was in avici hell for making Buddha to bleed. Sakyamuni Buddha then went on to talk about how He had benefitted from one of Devadetta's past lives. But we have to keep in mind that in Devadetta's lifetime, he was not sincere in joining the Sangha as well. The Truth was presented to Devadetta but not only did he not believe in it, with ego so bloated that he had blinded himself, plot to take over Buddha's position by branching off to start his own order and the four attempted murder on Buddha.
Compare to people who don't know Dhamma nowadays, if we are to put them on the icchantika standard, they are really nothing as compared to Devadetta. Despite all these, he still received the commission by Sakyamuni Buddha Himself.
Prior to the Lotus Sutra, Buddha preached the Sutra of Immeasurable Essence (Wu Liang Yi Jing), if my memory doesn't fail me, Sakyamuni Buddha said that the most important of His Teachings is going to be revealed. Which eventually lead to the Lotus Sutra.
If you go by Tiantai school of thoughts, they always refer Lotus Sutra as part of the Threefold Lotus Sutra, having the Sutra of Immeasurable Essence as the opening, Lotus Sutra as the core and Sutra of Observing the Practice of Bodhisattva Universally Worthy (Guan Pu Xian Pu Sa Xing Fa Jing, eh I know my translations sound weird haha).
At least to my understanding, the purpose of the Lotus Sutra, besides revealing that Sakyamuni Buddha is the incarnate of Dhammakaya (Nichiren Shonin greatly emphasized on this), it is a Sutra that is in attempt to side aside the differences among the 3 vehicles (sravaka, pratyaka-buddha, bodhisattva) and it is suppose to inspire and encourage to have the spirit of never-ending practice (in Chapter 16, Sakyamuni Buddha told Matrieya Bodhisattva that the time Sakyamuni Buddha spend on practising the bodhisattva path is double the time of His lifespan) to practitioners of the 'so-call' lesser 2 vehicles. Where Sakyamuni Buddha said that there is only one path He was teaching, no second or third.
So I think the cure is only that icchantika to take faith in the Triplegem and practice the Dhamma sincerely and with perseverence. In Nichiren Buddhism, the beautiful thing about their Lotus Precept is to practice the spirit of the whole 28 chapters of LS. And probably through this earnest practice in the 28 chapters, we may then transform an icchantika. I'm not sure how Tiantai think. I read more about Nichiren's idea than Tiantai.
=) -
informative post...keep it up sinweiy and Yamizi
so long no one have post this on Wisdom Bliss
-
You don't expect a person to take faith out of the blue (though there are such cases). At least from Lotus Sutra point of view, the teacher of the law (both layman and ordained) has to talk the walk and walk the talk. Such is to inspire and to be a living example that the Dhamma IS applicable. Then will people convince.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:I doubt your idea of cure will work as a icchantika cannot even take faith.
In LS, Buddha gave various parables to describe the difference in capacities of people and what characters should a teacher of the law possess etc.
sinweiy,
eh I made a mistake, Devadetta is Chapter 12, Chapter 10 is Teacher. Pai seh Pai seh. -
At least to me, slander is the deliberate degratory terms used on someone or something that the person who said it, know that he/she is wrong.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Know why it doesn't work?
Simple answer is no faith hence no effect on their lives thus Buddhadharma to them is false and unreal and it is fine to slander a lie.
If a person out of genuine ignorance to the Dhamma and made negative comments, I don't think that amounts to slander.
Everyone has faith in their lives. Just that where does the faith place on?
Some believe in a god.
Some believe in many gods.
Some believe in anything also can pray.
Some believe that they themselves know best.
etc...
So how can one generate this faith they have towards the benefit of their lives?
Recently I attended a talk by Bhante Dhammika who was talking about the Dhammapada. He said that one of the interesting thing in Buddhism is that Buddha didn't really put down all other religions. To Buddha, He knew best that if a person is out seek a path on the purification of the mind, then that person can come to the Buddha and take up the discipline. If a person likes to go heaven; practice magic, etc, well then they can go to other schools of thoughts/religions.
It all depends what do you want to do to your own lives.
=) -
Originally posted by yamizi:
ultimate u do got a point there. conventionally, i think time is still involve.
I think somehow everyone has encounter the Dhamma. Just that it varies in degree and in label. Dhamma doesn't has to mean to be Buddhism. Probably somewhere in third world country, there are still people caring for their family, those nitty gritty virtues, I won't dismiss them saying these are not Dhamma.
And the point is that, everyone has so many past lives, it is quite impossible to say one has not encounter the Dhamma.
remind me of the story:-For one to become a left-home person, one must have planted good roots in past lives. One time Buddha Shakyamuni tested his student’s ability to decide whether to accept an old man who asked to be a monk. An Arhat is capable of knowing a being’s past lifetimes over many lifetimes. All of the Buddha’s Arhat students doomed the old man as a prospect, because they thought that he had no connection with Buddhism in his past lives. Shakyamuni then announced that many aeons ago, this old man was a woodchopper. One day when he ran into a tiger on the mountain, he climbed up a tree to escape, calling out, “Namo Buddha” (Homage to the Buddha) for help. With only those few words, the old man planted his good roots. In this life, he became a monk as he had wished and later attained his Arhatship.
/\ -
That is why conventionally, practitioner of LS has to set ourselves as the living Dhamma =)Originally posted by sinweiy:/\ -
What defines an icchantika is that an icchantika cannot take faith at all, not a question on timing.Originally posted by yamizi:You don't expect a person to take faith out of the blue (though there are such cases). At least from Lotus Sutra point of view, the teacher of the law (both layman and ordained) has to talk the walk and walk the talk. Such is to inspire and to be a living example that the Dhamma IS applicable. Then will people convince.
In LS, Buddha gave various parables to describe the difference in capacities of people and what characters should a teacher of the law possess etc.
sinweiy,
eh I made a mistake, Devadetta is Chapter 12, Chapter 10 is Teacher. Pai seh Pai seh. -
Probably that is the conventional definition and understanding of icchantika. The spirit of LS is that not to give up on icchantika or in fact what seems to be icchantika may not necessary be icchantika in the past or future =)Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:What defines an icchantika is that an icchantika cannot take faith at all, not a question on timing. -
All mental positions are changeable. A person holding a particular mental position 10 years ago may not think the same today.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:What defines an icchantika is that an icchantika cannot take faith at all, not a question on timing. -
That's your problem(or rather the votary of the Lotus Sutra 's problem), not the problem of the icchantika. Icchantika can be icchantika for all eternity because they are and will be born without faith.Originally posted by yamizi:Probably that is the conventional definition and understanding of icchantika. The spirit of LS is that not to give up on icchantika or in fact what seems to be icchantika may not necessary be icchantika in the past or future =) -
Question is whether a person who is born without faith can believe in any religion. It is not a mental position.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:All mental positions are changeable. A person holding a particular mental position 10 years ago may not think the same today. -
Originally posted by yamizi:
yes the example of Devadetta is giving in example #4 above...still i think there are those who are even more worst or deluded than Devadetta. Devadetta still can receive, only no faith. there are those that cannot receive(or even reject) and also cannot have faith.
Compare to people who don't know Dhamma nowadays, if we are to put them on the icchantika standard, they are really nothing as compared to Devadetta. Despite all these, he still received the commission by Sakyamuni Buddha Himself.
nevertheless, both, even though enter evil realm, but after karma is exhausted, they return back and can easily learn dharma faster than those that didn't even have chance to slander. that's wat i think is the principle.
a seed planted in the alaya, simply reap faster, like example of Devadetta.
/\ -
Haha sinweiy and HZ are still restricted to conventional understanding on icchantika.
No wonder Sakyamuni Buddha kept stressing in the earlier chapters that LS is Nan Xing Nan Jie (difficult to believe in; difficult to comprehend).
The idea and spirit of LS is to turn the impossible possible by the practice and self-example of the Teacher of the Law. Of course the both of you might not have touched by LS therefore it is very hard for you to comprehend.
AEN had answered to HZ that all mental state is possible to change. There were pious who become free-thinkers and vice versa.
It all matters to what you want to do to your life.
Say if you hope to inspire icchantika then how are you going to achieve it. If by thinking praying to some buddha or chant some sutra will change the mindset of icchantika, well then that's too bad, at least that's not what the LS had taught.
No offence intended, but to safeguard HZ and sinweiy kamma for insisting icchantika can't be changed, I choose to refrain from sharing LS in this point view at this juncture =) -
Originally posted by yamizi:
yamizi oh yamizi...i think u had seriously seriously misunderstood my post, now where in my post did i state that i insist icchantika can't be changed? please you are putting words in people's mouth.
No offence intended, but to safeguard HZ and sinweiy kamma for insisting icchantika can't be changed, I choose to refrain from sharing LS in this point view at this juncture =)
/\