Your views on sacrificial slaughtering of animals
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Before I go on, I would like to state that this post is not a direct or indirect attack or criticism of any religion and I have no intention to do so.
I'm just trying to adopt the right mindset towards what I will get to hear or read about wherever I go, Buddhist or not. I also want to react and behave in the right way should I happen to be a live witness of such events.
Officially, Hari Raya Haji has ended with prayers and sacrificial slaughtering of sheep and distribution of fresh meat to needy people.
We all know that every sheep, on the day of Hari Raya Haji, are slaughtered in a halal manner, with prayers and a very quick slash of the animal's windpipe. This is as decreed by their God and accepted as a profound act of Allah's mercy and grace for those who are loyal and obedient to him.
However, now that I'm a Buddhist, it is not easy for me to understand and accept as readily as I would like to - even though I know that prayers are said prior to or during the slaughtering, that such customs can be considered to be without negative karma effects for all those involved, directly or indirectly.
In the Shurangama sutra (leng4 yan2 jing1), there is a verse that says:
"Suppose a person eats a sheep. The sheep dies and becomes a person; the person dies and becomes a sheep, the same applies in all rebirths among the ten categories. Through death after death and birth after birth, they eat each other. The evil karma one is born with continues to the bounds of the future. The basis for all that is stealing and greed.
"‘You owe me a life; I must repay my debt to you.’ Due to such causes and conditions we pass through hundreds of thousands of eons in sustained cycle of birth and death."
So it is correct or appropriate to consider in the context of Buddhist teachings that, the above verse applies to those who slaughters animals as part of their customs or religious practices, even if they had sincerely chanted prayers prior to and during the slaughtering?
Again I must emphasise here that I'm not trying to establish what is right or wrong about the religious or customary practices of others. I just want to know how to look upon such matters in right way as a Buddhist.
It is taught in scriptures that we as Buddha's disciples, should not only avoid killing or harming of any life, we should also try to save lives.
My question is: If you happen to be able to attend and witness the live slaughtering as a Buddhist, what can you or how should you react from within?
First and foremost, you definitely cannot and must not stop them, either physically or verbally. That I'm pretty clear of.
But the Buddha has said that saving a life that is in imminent or immediate danger, takes priority over any kind of prayer or any event that you might have to attend to at the moment.
So personally for me, I think it would be rather uneasy for me to witness the live slaughter, both as a person and a Buddhist. And to ease my uneasiness and helplessness, I would most probably recite the Buddha's name in my heart and dedicate any merit to all those about to be slaughtered.
How or what would you think, feel or do if you happen to be invited to witness such events as a Buddhist? -
I think the Shurangama sutra should be taken in terms of principle than being a tit-for-tat sort of 'retribution', and never meant to mean that way. It is merely using that as an example to show something. Karma does not necessarily work in such a way. But the principle behind it does -- that suffering from karmic consequences will be resulted if you do acts such as animal slaughter. And that your victim may 'seek revenge' in a future life, cld be your enemy in a war, etc (just an example).
In Buddhism, killing is a bad karma regardless of what prayer, chanting, you did, even if you had repented, the karma is not easily cleared off completely.
Like you said there is little we can do except than to chant and dedicate merits for the beings. It is important that we be tolerant of others' religious beliefs and customs. -
it is good
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Our traditions view things differently, obviously.
I quote Kahlil Gibran from his book, "The Prophet".
When you kill a beast say to him in your heart,
"By the same power that slays you, I to am slain; and I too shall be consumed. For the law that delivered you into my hand shall deliver me into a mightier hand.
Your blood and my blood is naught but the sap that feeds the tree of heaven." -
Buddhism's views clearly contradict yours.Originally posted by cutie-pie:it is good
Have compassion for animals. -
We all view things differently indeed.Originally posted by Gauze:Our traditions view things differently, obviously. I quote Kahlil Gibran from his book, "The Prophet".
Your qoute fr Kahil Gibran :
" By the same power that slays you, I too am slain and I too shall be consumed. For the law that delivered you into my hand shall deliver me into a mightier hand. Your blood and my blood is naught but the sap that feeds the tree of heaven."
My view after reading this is that we should all the more realise the sameness of lives of all beings; and thus compassion is to be generated to all beings regardless of status or forms. I also see the application of cause and effects in the quote.
Selamat Hari Raya Haji to all Muslims Friends. -
Originally posted by Spnw07:
Basically, I would come up with some excuses and turn down the invitation nicely. No hard feelings.
Before I go on, I would like to state that this post is not a direct or indirect attack or criticism of any religion and I have no intention to do so.
I'm just trying to adopt the right mindset towards what I will get to hear or read about wherever I go, Buddhist or not. I also want to react and behave in the right way should I happen to be a live witness of such events.
Officially, Hari Raya Haji has ended with prayers and sacrificial slaughtering of sheep and distribution of fresh meat to needy people.
We all know that every sheep, on the day of Hari Raya Haji, are slaughtered in a halal manner, with prayers and a very quick slash of the animal's windpipe. This is as decreed by their God and accepted as a profound act of Allah's mercy and grace for those who are loyal and obedient to him.
However, now that I'm a Buddhist, it is not easy for me to understand and accept as readily as I would like to - even though I know that prayers are said prior to or during the slaughtering, that such customs can be considered to be without negative karma effects for all those involved, directly or indirectly.
In the Shurangama sutra (leng4 yan2 jing1), there is a verse that says:
[b]"Suppose a person eats a sheep. The sheep dies and becomes a person; the person dies and becomes a sheep, the same applies in all rebirths among the ten categories. Through death after death and birth after birth, they eat each other. The evil karma one is born with continues to the bounds of the future. The basis for all that is stealing and greed.
"‘You owe me a life; I must repay my debt to you.’ Due to such causes and conditions we pass through hundreds of thousands of eons in sustained cycle of birth and death."
So it is correct or appropriate to consider in the context of Buddhist teachings that, the above verse applies to those who slaughters animals as part of their customs or religious practices, even if they had sincerely chanted prayers prior to and during the slaughtering?
Again I must emphasise here that I'm not trying to establish what is right or wrong about the religious or customary practices of others. I just want to know how to look upon such matters in right way as a Buddhist.
It is taught in scriptures that we as Buddha's disciples, should not only avoid killing or harming of any life, we should also try to save lives.
My question is: If you happen to be able to attend and witness the live slaughtering as a Buddhist, what can you or how should you react from within?
First and foremost, you definitely cannot and must not stop them, either physically or verbally. That I'm pretty clear of.
But the Buddha has said that saving a life that is in imminent or immediate danger, takes priority over any kind of prayer or any event that you might have to attend to at the moment.
So personally for me, I think it would be rather uneasy for me to witness the live slaughter, both as a person and a Buddhist. And to ease my uneasiness and helplessness, I would most probably recite the Buddha's name in my heart and dedicate any merit to all those about to be slaughtered.
How or what would you think, feel or do if you happen to be invited to witness such events as a Buddhist?
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Sometimes we must be firm in our stance as Buddhists. We know that killings will be carried out, and maybe we will be also offered the meat from the sheep that we've just witnessed being killed; then as Buddhists who understand the precepts of no killing ( regardless of whether we r holding the precets or not), we shouldn't be present at such situation as much as we can. And frankly speaking as common people we can, as we r not Ministers, politicans, journalists, celebrities, sponsors etc. who may not be able to reject due to their career commitments.
I remember Ven Master Chi Zhou mentioned that we should not purposely go against Buddhadharma for the sake of appeasing others, or to keep relations with people we like, or to be popular. To quote the Master: " Bie2 ba3 fuo2 fa3 dang1 ren2 qing2".
It is not easy of cos for people like us, who have to work and interact with people fr all walks of life. But it just shows that we r still not up to mark yet, which is not an excuse. Thus we must practise harder n slowly we will be able to handle our lives in society properly and happily. -
Then I would quote from the dead Terrorist Achmed:"I kill you!"Originally posted by cycle:Basically, I would come up with some excuses and turn down the invitation nicely. No hard feelings.
Sometimes we must be firm in our stance as Buddhists. We know that killings will be carried out, and maybe we will be also offered the meat from the sheep that we've just witnessed being killed; then as Buddhists who understand the precepts of no killing ( regardless of whether we r holding the precets or not), we shouldn't be present at such situation as much as we can. And frankly speaking as common people we can, as we r not Ministers, politicans, journalists, celebrities, sponsors etc. who may not be able to reject due to their career commitments.
I remember Ven Master Chi Zhou mentioned that we should not purposely go against Buddhadharma for the sake of appeasing others, or to keep relations with people we like, or to be popular. To quote the Master: " Bie2 ba3 fuo2 fa3 dang1 ren2 qing2".
It is not easy of cos for people like us, who have to work and interact with people fr all walks of life. But it just shows that we r still not up to mark yet, which is not an excuse. Thus we must practise harder n slowly we will be able to handle our lives in society properly and happily. -
why would there be any negative karma if u are doing something that u know is right and doing it the right way?
happy holiday. =) -
first, we have to know that there a thousands of sheeps slaughtered as lamb everyday. And this celebration will not in any sense increase lamb slaughter number. And I think the demand in CNY for roast pork, chicken n roast duck is even more than for this.
Second, prayers are said for the lamb before they slaughter them, in fact even more elaborate prayers and thanksgiving for the meat of the lamb during this season than other normal days. Thus, the lamb is "gived" with more prays or "hui xiang". Also, people have the "gan en" or appreciative feeling for the meat.
Third, as normally people do not witness the slaughtering of the lambs, so they just eat without feeling the pain and suffering by the lambs when they were being slaughtered. By having people themselves slaughter the lambs and the witnesses, the people, seeing the lamb get killed. They will feel more "gan en" to the lamb and that will also feel sinful, that they "participated" in killing the lamb. Thus, next time, when they eat the lamb, they will feel something. This in buddhism is the idea of "fang sheng". Maybe they may even abstain from lamb meat, or eat less. -
what if that animal/someone gladly gives or sacrifice his/her life for you?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:In Buddhism, killing is a bad karma regardless of what prayer, chanting, you did, even if you had repented, the karma is not easily cleared off completely. -
more so, if they sacrificer has no "yuan" chi towards you, and when you kill him/her, you aso have a loving chi, not "yuan (4)" chi?Originally posted by nightzip:what if that animal/someone gladly gives or sacrifice his/her life for you?
and that we know, there is not real killing, cuz in fact your souls lives on, just changing a carcass only? -
Exactly. Endless.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Then I would quote from the dead Terrorist Achmed:"I kill you!" -
if by not going there, the person just eats lamb everyone as much as he wants, i would rather he go to witness the slaughtering so that it can "educate" him, and hopefully make him come to senses and eat less meat.Originally posted by cycle:Basically, I would come up with some excuses and turn down the invitation nicely. No hard feelings.
Sometimes we must be firm in our stance as Buddhists. We know that killings will be carried out, and maybe we will be also offered the meat from the sheep that we've just witnessed being killed; then as Buddhists who understand the precepts of no killing ( regardless of whether we r holding the precets or not), we shouldn't be present at such situation as much as we can. And frankly speaking as common people we can, as we r not Ministers, politicans, journalists, celebrities, sponsors etc. who may not be able to reject due to their career commitments.
I remember Ven Master Chi Zhou mentioned that we should not purposely go against Buddhadharma for the sake of appeasing others, or to keep relations with people we like, or to be popular. To quote the Master: " Bie2 ba3 fuo2 fa3 dang1 ren2 qing2".
It is not easy of cos for people like us, who have to work and interact with people fr all walks of life. But it just shows that we r still not up to mark yet, which is not an excuse. Thus we must practise harder n slowly we will be able to handle our lives in society properly and happily. 
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ic.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei: -
I think your understanding of "fang Sheng" needs correction. I'm not up to mark so hopefully the Moderators wld help.Originally posted by nightzip:first, we have to know that there a thousands of sheeps slaughtered as lamb everyday. And this celebration will not in any sense increase lamb slaughter number. And I think the demand in CNY for roast pork, chicken n roast duck is even more than for this.
Second, prayers are said for the lamb before they slaughter them, in fact even more elaborate prayers and thanksgiving for the meat of the lamb during this season than other normal days. Thus, the lamb is "gived" with more prays or "hui xiang". Also, people have the "gan en" or appreciative feeling for the meat.
Third, as normally people do not witness the slaughtering of the lambs, so they just eat without feeling the pain and suffering by the lambs when they were being slaughtered. By having people themselves slaughter the lambs and the witnesses, the people, seeing the lamb get killed. They will feel more "gan en" to the lamb and that will also feel sinful, that they "participated" in killing the lamb. Thus, next time, when they eat the lamb, they will feel something. This in buddhism is the idea of "fang sheng". Maybe they may even abstain from lamb meat, or eat less. -
so we'll all go vegetarian.
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Huh? Which person? By not going there doesn't mean one continues to eat lamb, wat. Which world r u living in now? U need to go to the place of killing to be "educated" on what is killing? Maybe it is more"appropriate" to say that one needs to go to such place to learn how to kill.Originally posted by nightzip:if by not going there, the person just eats lamb everyone as much as he wants, i would rather he go to witness the slaughtering so that it can "educate" him, and hopefully make him come to senses and eat less meat. -
No lah, no i dun mean those people who have taken the precepts. I mean those people who has not "gui yi" yet and do not know on right or wrong, retribution etc. The witnessing will "educate" him about the pain and sufferings for the lamb.Originally posted by cycle:Huh? Which person? By not going there doesn't mean one continues to eat lamb, wat. Which world r u living in now? U need to go to the place of killing to be "educated" on what is killing? Maybe it is more"appropriate" to say that one needs to go to such place to learn how to kill.
btw, I learned this meaning for fang sheng from the zhu chi at the temple along upper paya lebar road, when we attended the fang sheng da huan about 1 month back.
Also, in guang ming shan, 3-4 years back, during Vesak day, there are celebrations and there is a video screening on slaughtering of cows, etc, which served to "educate" the public.
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So what if you have taken the precepts or not? It will not stop the slaughter nor the pain as humans are the most cruel animals in this world.Originally posted by nightzip:No lah, no i dun mean those people who have taken the precepts. I mean those people who has not "gui yi" yet and do not know on right or wrong, retribution etc. The witnessing will "educate" him about the pain and sufferings for the lamb.
btw, I learned this meaning for fang sheng from the zhu chi at the temple along upper paya lebar road, when we attended the fang sheng da huan about 1 month back.
Also, in guang ming shan, 3-4 years back, during Vesak day, there are celebrations and there is a video screening on slaughtering of cows, etc, which served to "educate" the public. -
humans eat meat and vegetables, this is as such.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:So what if you have taken the precepts or not? It will not stop the slaughter nor the pain as humans are the most cruel animals in this world.
Lions, tigers eat meat
Even fishes eat smaller planktons and smaller fishes and shrimps.
Cows and sheeps eat grass, but inside the grass may have bugs, beatles, ants
We eat to survive, no wastage. Life is all encompassing, and never quite ending, cycles.
Please ponder. -
Your yuan chi refers to "hatred", right? And abt "souls" n 'carcass" thingy...I hope u r posing a question to AEN. not a statement; becos it is a very dangerous idea. Nothing to do with Buddhadharma.Originally posted by nightzip:more so, if they sacrificer has no "yuan" chi towards you, and when you kill him/her, you aso have a loving chi, not "yuan (4)" chi?
and that we know, there is not real killing, cuz in fact your souls lives on, just changing a carcass only? -
Exactly. Thus in today's world n technologies, almost all of us here( in Spore) cannot claim that we don't know what killing is like n what pain n fear will be faced by those who were killed.Originally posted by nightzip:Also, in guang ming shan, 3-4 years back, during Vesak day, there are celebrations and there is a video screening on slaughtering of cows, etc, which served to "educate" the public. -
It is true humans can become the most cruel animals in this world if we continue to be defiled by greed, hatred and ignorance. Thus by understanding and hopefully upholding the Precepts, will help us to change for the better from ourselves first.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:So what if you have taken the precepts or not? It will not stop the slaughter nor the pain as humans are the most cruel animals in this world.