Things which led me to believe in Cause and Effect
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My first introduction to Buddhist concept of karma was the Cause and Effect sutra. It is quite amazing to read that there are reasons for what I am experiencing in my life. The environment I am born in and so on.
Let me go on to talk about how I started to slowly believe strongly in the Buddhist concept of Cause and Effect, even though there are many people out there now who still challenge the Buddhist concept of cause and effect and that every living being has gone through countless rebirths.
Since small, I have hardly been good at anything. For boys, this might be fatal. In school, either you have to be good at sports or studies or cool in character to have friends. Not only was I not good at any of those, I frankly suck at sports and outdoor games.
I found that I didn't have a group which I could go to. There was no one that would say 'hey, come here, join us for this, join us for that...'
Every first day of school of every academic level is something that I would dread attending. Almost everyone would have people approaching them to introduce themselves, but no one would ever come to me. By the time we were assigned to our own classes, most would have formed their own cliques. But not me. This would later become a common scenario throughout my life so far.
Most people by now would have at least one or two close friends in their lives. Most would at least be liked in some way by people, even though they have their own flaws. But this was, and is still, hardly true for me.
I think a lot, about what is that I have to do to be like those around me, to be surrounded by friends, surrounded by people who would like them to be in their sports group, study group and soon on. What is like to have friends who truly care about you, who truly accept you for who you are, I wonder a lot, a lot about such things every now and then.
I struggled a lot within, trying to correct my flaws like pettiness, stubbornness, sulkiness and so on. But soon I gave up cos my ego is too 'strong'. I didn't want to change, cos I was pretty scared that I would 'lose' myself in order to be liked.
The Buddhist teaching of Cause and Effect and karma, in a way, helped me to accept to some extent, that I may have done something bad in my past life to warrant this bad personality and lonely life. Well, it also irritates me at the same time in that it tells me to accept no matter what.
If anyone out there is experiencing a similar life like me, don't give up, okay? I'm with you. I may not be able to help you, but at least you know you are not alone. If no one can understand the pain you are going through, I can, at least more than others, I think...
One day, I believe, my bad karma will end. I believe I can change my flaws too. But maybe not in this life, cos my fears and insecurities are too deep-seated. Who knows what turn of future events would lead me to change and make those changes permanent.
As a buddhist, I should not have said the above ignorant and naive statements at all. But as a mere human, I have my dreams.
Maybe to end this post in a more positive tone, let me say this:
The Buddhist concept of karma is not fatalistic. So there is always hope for everyone of us. Help will come, even if you had not expected it to. Help comes when you continue to try, without giving up easily.
As living beings, we can give up everything, but we should never, ever give up HOPE. If you have given up hope, remember, Hope will still be there for you, waiting for you to open yourself to it again.
So don't give up, alright?
Amituofo!
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yup, totally agree.
While accepting our suffering currently is due to th actions in the past, we must do something now for the future.
You may want to be more initiative in talking to people, although you are a nice person, but if you don't take the initiative, people may think you are "dao".
which dharma centre you frequent, btw. -
...if it is not fatalistic then why hold on to the concept at all? Nagarjuna, often referred to as "the second Buddha" by Tibetan and East Asian Mahayana (Great Vehicle) traditions of Buddhism, has a lot to say about "Cause and Effect".Originally posted by Spnw07:Maybe to end this post in a more positive tone, let me say this:
The Buddhist concept of karma is not fatalistic. So there is always hope for everyone of us. Help will come, even if you had not expected it to. Help comes when you continue to try, without giving up easily.
As living beings, we can give up everything, but we should never, ever give up HOPE. If you have given up hope, remember, Hope will still be there for you, waiting for you to open yourself to it again.
So don't give up, alright?
Amituofo!Nagarjuna posits four possible ways an effect can be produced by causes.
1. An effect produces itself (Samkhya)
2. An effect is produced by something other than itself (Nyaya)
3. An effect is both produced by itself and is produced by something other than itself.
4. An effect is produced without a cause.
Next, Nagarjuna proceeds to show that none of these alternatives are possible if causality is viewed as the production of an effect by a causal power that inheres in a self-existent cause.
Argument #1.
Suppose #1 is true. This means the cause that produces the effect is identical to the effect. To make this claim means there is only one thing involved here, not two. Because causality, so understood, is a relationship between two things, then no causal relationship is possible. If no causal relationship is possible, then it is absurd to claim an effect causes itself.
Argument #2.
Suppose #2 is true. This means that the cause is essentially different from the effect. But if cause and effect are essentially different, how can one be the effect of the other? This suggests that the cause transformed itself into the effect. If the cause and the effect are essentially different things, then it is absurd to claim there is a causal relationship between them. Only if the
cause and effect are not essentially different can we say that the cause (the bean) transforms into the effect (the bean sprout). If a causal relationship cannot obtain between two things that are essentially different, then it is absurd to claim that an effect is produced by something other than itself.
Argument #3.
Suppose #3 is true. This is merely a conjunction of #1 and #2. Since both conjuncts have been shown to be false, the conjunction is false. Hence, this is a no-starter.
Argument #4.
Suppose #4 is true. This amounts to the claim that there are no causes, which is to abandon the whole notion of causal relationships. Hence to call this an explanation of causality
is absurd.
Hence, the force of these arguments is intended to demonstrate that the notion of a cause as a self-existent thing with the power to produce some effect is empty. -
Perhaps this shouldn't be in a forum about Buddhism, but I guess I'm somehow in a similar plight as you. While I do have causual/good friends and can interact resonably well enough with people, I'm never the best friend of anybody nor part of any clique.
I'm not shy around people, nor am I unfriendly. In fact, to date, I've hardly, if not never, quarrel with other people. However, I lack the important ability of learning how to open up a conversation or have idle talks with other people. It's always when people start to talk with me do I talk to them. If the other party too is quiet, we'll just end up in an awkward situation.
As such, it's often difficult for me to start making new friends. Even if I do manage to attain friendly terms with other people, I'm easily forgotten by them when it comes to outings or gatherings. Few remembers my birthday, fewer birthday presents I've received in my life. And I was never invited to any parties at all.
As I've mentioned, I was never part of any clique, never part of any group of friends who'll always hang out together.
If I'm feeling thick-skinned enough, I can at most try to cut into a group's conversation. Even so, I find myself having nothing much to talk about. Otherwise, I'll never be part of that conversation.
I'm now serving NS. When I booked out, nobody asked me out. When I tried to ask people out, they'll claim to themselves to be busy. When I got into trouble unwittingly, the few friends I have will offer symbolic consolations, but few will help. The few that helped did it out of kindness, not friendship.
Tried as I could, I'm a good friend of few guys, much less girls. Despite the Cause I've tried to create, little Effect could be seen.
I guess I'm in a similar plight as you. -
Just minutes after I've posted the above post, I came across the article put up by summertea33, 'Life is about Chioces'.
Kinds of brightens me up. Perhaps I should rethink about what I've posted in the above post... -
karma is right here right now
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Thanks for sharing with me about yourself. I posted this in a Buddhist forum cos I want to share about how I started to believe in the Buddhist concept of karma or Cause and effect. Other forums would be inappropriate as they are for secular discussion.Originally posted by annoy-you-must:Perhaps this shouldn't be in a forum about Buddhism, but I guess I'm somehow in a similar plight as you. While I do have causual/good friends and can interact resonably well enough with people, I'm never the best friend of anybody nor part of any clique.
I'm not shy around people, nor am I unfriendly. In fact, to date, I've hardly, if not never, quarrel with other people. However, I lack the important ability of learning how to open up a conversation or have idle talks with other people. It's always when people start to talk with me do I talk to them. If the other party too is quiet, we'll just end up in an awkward situation.
As such, it's often difficult for me to start making new friends. Even if I do manage to attain friendly terms with other people, I'm easily forgotten by them when it comes to outings or gatherings. Few remembers my birthday, fewer birthday presents I've received in my life. And I was never invited to any parties at all.
As I've mentioned, I was never part of any clique, never part of any group of friends who'll always hang out together.
If I'm feeling thick-skinned enough, I can at most try to cut into a group's conversation. Even so, I find myself having nothing much to talk about. Otherwise, I'll never be part of that conversation.
I'm now serving NS. When I booked out, nobody asked me out. When I tried to ask people out, they'll claim to themselves to be busy. When I got into trouble unwittingly, the few friends I have will offer symbolic consolations, but few will help. The few that helped did it out of kindness, not friendship.
Tried as I could, I'm a good friend of few guys, much less girls. Despite the Cause I've tried to create, little Effect could be seen.
I guess I'm in a similar plight as you.
My friends are like yours, they do offer symbolic consolations, but few will help. But if my friends are helping me out of kindness, that's ok with me. Better than nothing at all.
I am also easily forgotten by my friends and have not been considered as part of any group. If I was invited to any gathering, it was just for the sake of looking at each other. There was little common ground between us. It was just a ordinary social formality.
I do try to become the friend that I wish others would be to me, but it has not been easy to overcome my ego and the seemingly exploitative nature of some people I have come across.
I'm glad that you are feeling better about yourself after reading the post 'Life is about choices'.
Hope no one will ever have to stay in a similar plight as I am now.
Take care. ^_^ -
well
i feel that most impt is to be happy ,upon knowing the transitory nature of cause and effect
never cause grievous harm to other , that will be best
i mean i also dun have much girl friend ,but rather more guy friend -
I believe everything in our worldly system is linked to cause and effect - 'Cause' bring about 'Effect' and this 'Effect' becomes a new 'Cause' and bring about a new 'Effect' and this goes on and on like a ripple.... Read more
Quoted from Spnw07 and my reply in blue:
I think a lot, about what is that I have to do to be like those around me, to be surrounded by friends, surrounded by people who would like them to be in their sports group, study group and soon on. What is like to have friends who truly care about you, who truly accept you for who you are, I wonder a lot, a lot about such things every now and then..... Hmmm.... Don't think so much Pal... Just be yourself... I was like you before, thinking of how I could be surrounded by friends. But these thoughts are merely useless, you have to take the approach to reach out & "be a good person" in order for people to accept you.
I struggled a lot within, trying to correct my flaws like pettiness, stubbornness, sulkiness and so on. But soon I gave up cos my ego is too 'strong'. I didn't want to change, cos I was pretty scared that I would 'lose' myself in order to be liked.....These are really flaws that you should change, don't let your ego overrun you. I do not like to live in the eyes of other people either but changing myself to become a better person is nothing to lose. Ego is really hard to overcome (this I can understand), personally I engage a method that I discovered myself - Whenever you discover that your ego is taking control of you, let go of it immediately, stop thinking about it and let it dwells away without attachment. Don't let it control your life. If you don't work on it now, it will be harder as time goes by.
The Buddhist teaching of Cause and Effect and karma, in a way, helped me to accept to some extent, that I may have done something bad in my past life to warrant this bad personality and lonely life. Well, it also irritates me at the same time in that it tells me to accept no matter what. Accepting is the beginning but to change is the future. Start changing now for your future - if not for others, at least do for yourself.
One day, I believe, my bad karma will end. I believe I can change my flaws too. But maybe not in this life, cos my fears and insecurities are too deep-seated. Who knows what turn of future events would lead me to change and make those changes permanent. You can do it man and it's only a decision away and the ability to let go of your ego. Don't give up, ok? If you don't change now, later in your life (not to mention your next life), you may probably say the same thing again and again - there will be no change. If you seek to change for the better, then you should start doing something now- this I believe is the work of Karma, isn't it? -
Therefore Narjuna's 4 posit must also be true as it is possible for an effect not to have cause as the theory is not always true.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap: -
Your statement is precisely refuted by Nagarjuna in statement 4.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Therefore Narjuna's 4 posit must also be true as it is possible for an effect not to have cause as the theory is not always true.
What he is trying to point out ultimately is that cause and effect are inseparable (yet not identical). -
Thanks for taking the time to encourage me. This is probably what I would have said to others in a similar situation as me.Originally posted by younghugo:I believe everything in our worldly system is linked to cause and effect - 'Cause' bring about 'Effect' and this 'Effect' becomes a new 'Cause' and bring about a new 'Effect' and this goes on and on like a ripple.... Read more
Quoted from Spnw07 and my reply in blue:
I think a lot, about what is that I have to do to be like those around me, to be surrounded by friends, surrounded by people who would like them to be in their sports group, study group and soon on. What is like to have friends who truly care about you, who truly accept you for who you are, I wonder a lot, a lot about such things every now and then..... Hmmm.... Don't think so much Pal... Just be yourself... I was like you before, thinking of how I could be surrounded by friends. But these thoughts are merely useless, you have to take the approach to reach out & "be a good person" in order for people to accept you.
I struggled a lot within, trying to correct my flaws like pettiness, stubbornness, sulkiness and so on. But soon I gave up cos my ego is too 'strong'. I didn't want to change, cos I was pretty scared that I would 'lose' myself in order to be liked.....These are really flaws that you should change, don't let your ego overrun you. I do not like to live in the eyes of other people either but changing myself to become a better person is nothing to lose. Ego is really hard to overcome (this I can understand), personally I engage a method that I discovered myself - Whenever you discover that your ego is taking control of you, let go of it immediately, stop thinking about it and let it dwells away without attachment. Don't let it control your life. If you don't work on it now, it will be harder as time goes by.
The Buddhist teaching of Cause and Effect and karma, in a way, helped me to accept to some extent, that I may have done something bad in my past life to warrant this bad personality and lonely life. Well, it also irritates me at the same time in that it tells me to accept no matter what. Accepting is the beginning but to change is the future. Start changing now for your future - if not for others, at least do for yourself.
One day, I believe, my bad karma will end. I believe I can change my flaws too. But maybe not in this life, cos my fears and insecurities are too deep-seated. Who knows what turn of future events would lead me to change and make those changes permanent. You can do it man and it's only a decision away and the ability to let go of your ego. Don't give up, ok? If you don't change now, later in your life (not to mention your next life), you may probably say the same thing again and again - there will be no change. If you seek to change for the better, then you should start doing something now- this I believe is the work of Karma, isn't it?
However, I somehow believe, ultimately, no one wants to a bad person from the start and there are deep inner issues to be resolved before that person can finally overcome his ego and thus start changing his/her own flaws.
If I have to be a good person in order to be accepted, then perhaps what they want is not a person with his/her unique or weird personality. Maybe what they want is how easy and good it would be for them to have such a good person around them.
I have been trying to work on my ego. However, it has also been very tiring. It is also because of this that I can learn to be more sensitive to the feelings of others and to be less judgemental.
Habits die hard and not all can change on their own. They need help. So don't wait for others to ask for help, approach them gently and let them know you are there to listen, not judge.
If you have friends like me, don't just expect them to change by words alone. Show them human warmth. Warmth before lessons. Just like watching and guiding a baby on his/her first step.
Take care.
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Nagarjuna did not refute the statement, he concedes that if statement 4 is true, the theory of cause and effect must therefore not exist.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Your statement is precisely refuted by Nagarjuna in statement 4.
What he is trying to point out ultimately is that cause and effect are inseparable (yet not identical). -
Nope, that is not what he meant.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Nagarjuna did not refute the statement, he concedes that if statement 4 is true, the theory of cause and effect must therefore not exist. -
I thnk AEN has linguistic trouble.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Nope, that is not what he meant. -
I think Herzog Zwei has logical trouble.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:I thnk AEN has linguistic trouble.
Anyway, this is going way off topic. -
Cause and effect is an idea imposed by people. For every cause there is an effect, and every cause has a cause to it and it goes on forever. There must be one uncaused cause that set off these chains of thing, which some people would refer to it as "Karma". All those things that happened relates to your experiences and gradually, your mind try to explain it by linking it to other matters. Getting tied down by an idea isn't a good thing too.
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You are the one bringing it off topic. Kindly read the statement carefully.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I think Herzog Zwei has logical trouble.
Anyway, this is going way off topic.
As posted by APKY:Argument #4.
Hence it is correct to conclude that causality is not always real.
Suppose #4 is true. This amounts to the claim that there are no causes, which is to abandon the whole notion of causal relationships. Hence to call this an explanation of causality is absurd. -
Have you heard of " wu2 shi3 wu2 zhong1"? Or literally, " cycle"? Cause n effect is not imposed by anyboby, it's the law of the universe. Sorry, I can't explain clearly to you, in just one or two lines, given my limited Buddhadharma knowledge n languauge abilities, may the Moderators help to clarify.Originally posted by GodlySpeed:Cause and effect is an idea imposed by people. For every cause there is an effect, and every cause has a cause to it and it goes on forever. There must be one uncaused cause that set off these chains of thing, which some people would refer to it as "Karma". All those things that happened relates to your experiences and gradually, your mind try to explain it by linking it to other matters. Getting tied down by an idea isn't a good thing too. -
It is so obvious that Nagarjuna is trying to point out that all the 4 propositions are all equally absurd.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Hence it is correct to conclude that causality is not always real.
The statement that there is an effect that can be produced without a cause is simply absurd.
Ultimately, cause and effect is empty because cause and effect are not one, not two. This is what Nagarjuna is pointing out -- all he is concerned is to illustrate Emptiness using these points. -
There is no uncaused cause that sets off anything, there is no God or creator of the universe.Originally posted by GodlySpeed:Cause and effect is an idea imposed by people. For every cause there is an effect, and every cause has a cause to it and it goes on forever. There must be one uncaused cause that set off these chains of thing, which some people would refer to it as "Karma". All those things that happened relates to your experiences and gradually, your mind try to explain it by linking it to other matters. Getting tied down by an idea isn't a good thing too.
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=299411
To those who talked about the first cause of this world, the Buddha responded by saying that it is impossible to find a first cause since everything is changing, interdependent and conditioned by other things. Something that acts as the cause in the present may become the effect in the future. Later that same effect may again become the cause. Such phenomenon continues ad infinitum. It is called the universal law of Anicca or impermanency.
With regard to the origin of the world itself, the Buddha did not claim it was the property of Buddhism or that existing world systems and living things were controlled according to the Buddhist Order, but by universal law or natural phenomenon. Man was simply to accept his position in the world and regard himself and all things, animate and inanimate, as a compound.
The idea that there must be an 'uncaused cause' that sets everything off is precisely what is 'being tied down by an idea' and not seeing reality as it is. It is a merely logical conclusion and a theory, not an experiential nor intuitive insight.There is a parallel statement in the Buddhist text, Visuddhimagga IVI, verse 90 (see http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/buddha2.htm):
"Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found.
The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there.
Nibbana [Nirvana] is, but not the man that enters it.
The path is, but no traveller on it is seen,"
and further (see http://www.angelfire.com/indie/anna_jones1/fundamental.html):
"No doer of the deeds is found,
No one who ever reaps their fruits;
Empty phenomena roll on [unfold]:
This only is the correct view.And while the deeds and their results
Roll on and on, conditioned all,
There is no first beginning found,
Just as it is with seed and tree. ...
No god, no Brahma, can be called
The maker of this wheel of life:
Empty phenomena roll on,
Dependent on conditions all."
Buddha's teachings are not ideas or theories.. for the Buddha completely comprehends the world, he realised the truth of Dependent Origination, and hence the reality of Karma and other conditionality... and the realisation of this reality also leads to the unbinding, Nirvana, end of suffering, the highest bliss.
The Perfect One is free from any theory, for the Perfect One has understood what the body is, and how it arises, and passes away. He has understood what feeling is, and how it arises, and passes away. He has understood what perception is, and how it arises, and passes away. He has understood what the mental formations are, and how they arise, and pass away. He has understood what consciousness is, and how it arises, and passes away.
Therefore, I say, the Perfect One has won complete deliverance through the extinction, fading away, disappearance, rejection, and getting rid of all opinions and conjectures, of all inclination to the vainglory of I and mine.
- Majjhima Nikaya, 72
All who practice the Buddhist teachings can attain enlightenment himself -- it is not just a belief, but something that everyone realise/attain for himself, and there have been countless, up till today, who have intuitively experienced/attain enlightenment.. even some in this forum.
"The world exists only when we think about it; creation stories are for children. In reality the world is created every moment." ~ Jean Klein
Finally, with regards to 'creation',
"Malunkhyaputta Sutta stresses that whether the universe was created or uncreated, finite or infinite, is irrelevant to our main spiritual concerns: the cause and cessation of suffering:
"Therefore Malunkhyaputta, bear the undeclared as undeclared. Malunkhyaputta, what are the not declared? The world is eternal, is not declared by me. The world is not eternal, is not declared by me. They are not essential for the principles of the holy life, they do not lead to turning away, to detachment, to cessation, to appeasement, to realisation, to enlightenment and to extinction. Malunkhyaputta, what are the declared by me? This, is unpleasant, is declared. This, is its arising, is declared. This, is its cessation is declared. This is the path to its cessation, is declared. Malunkhyaputta, why are these declared by me? These are the essentials for the principles of the holy life; they lead to turning away, to detachment, to cessation, to appeasement, to realisation, to enlightenment and to extinction. Malunkhyaputta, I declare them." MN 64" -
Thanks AEN, I too wanted to hear more about Buddhist explanations regarding 'uncaused cause'. This term sounds weird and interesting at the same time when I first read it.
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aiyah.. study philosophy better lah
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Never hear before the phrase "wu zhong sheng you"? But does not apply equally to all things and events.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:It is so obvious that Nagarjuna is trying to point out that all the 4 propositions are all equally absurd.
The statement that there is an effect that can be produced without a cause is simply absurd.
Ultimately, cause and effect is empty because cause and effect are not one, not two. This is what Nagarjuna is pointing out -- all he is concerned is to illustrate Emptiness using these points. -
It applies to samsaric birth and the universe in general.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Never hear before the phrase "wu zhong sheng you"? But does not apply equally to all things and events.