Will the funeral rites be helpful to the deceased?
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I heard Ajahn Brahm said in his talk that when passed away, no amount of chanting can help the deceased.
He said Buddha said, when oil and water were to mix together (pardon me if I am wrong), something like it wont mix, cant remember the words he said.
when one die, one carry both good and bad kamma to the next world isnt it
anyone wanna comment on this? -
he is correct that chanting only helps the deceased a littleOriginally posted by marcteng:I heard Ajahn Brahm said in his talk that when passed away, no amount of chanting can help the deceased.
He said Buddha said, when oil and water were to mix together (pardon me if I am wrong), something like it wont mix, cant remember the words he said.
when one die, one carry both good and bad kamma to the next world isnt it
anyone wanna comment on this?
only 1/6 according to ksheetigarbha sutra -
What was the Buddha's actual words on this topic?
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what is the condition of the situation for ajahn brahm to say that no amount of chanting can help the deceased? no amount is like not even 1/6 or 1/8 or 0 or can also even immeasurable. besides, the family members of the deceased need to observe their conduct, precepts, even from preparing food to eating (vegetarian) and perform meritorious deeds in the name of the deceased (have i missed out anything else?). so if any of these are not guarded, you mean no matter how much chanting also cannot help the deceased? just to verify...Originally posted by marcteng:I heard Ajahn Brahm said in his talk that when passed away, no amount of chanting can help the deceased.
He said Buddha said, when oil and water were to mix together (pardon me if I am wrong), something like it wont mix, cant remember the words he said.
when one die, one carry both good and bad kamma to the next world isnt it
anyone wanna comment on this?
from the analogy of oil and water that do not mix - water is intangible and it flows to anywhere, it is like the original home where streams / rivers / ocean are in the original nature. liberation. while oil is like attachments that cannot dissolve, attachments that are not dropped by both the deceased and/or the living. it is like substance, residue, lingering remaining around the surface heavy and thick that it is hard to clear and difficult for the deceased to rest in peace or transcend to liberation.
please correct me for any misintepretation. -
THE WIND NEVER MOVE THE FLAG NEVER MOVE IT IS ONLY UR HEART MOVE!
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Let me recall, I also cant remmeber, think he said little help or something. Then he said Buddha uses an analogy, like water and oil. have to listen to his talk again at Youtube.Originally posted by paperflower:what is the condition of the situation for ajahn brahm to say that no amount of chanting can help the deceased? no amount is like not even 1/6 or 1/8 or 0 or can also even immeasurable. besides, the family members of the deceased need to observe their conduct, precepts, even from preparing food to eating (vegetarian) and perform meritorious deeds in the name of the deceased (have i missed out anything else?). so if any of these are not guarded, you mean no matter how much chanting also cannot help the deceased? just to verify...
from the analogy of oil and water that do not mix - water is intangible and it flows to anywhere, it is like the original home where streams / rivers / ocean are in the original nature. liberation. while oil is like attachments that cannot dissolve, attachments that are not dropped by both the deceased and/or the living. it is like substance, residue, lingering remaining around the surface heavy and thick that it is hard to clear and difficult for the deceased to rest in peace or transcend to liberation.
please correct me for any misintepretation.
Anyone got the Buddha's view on this? -
If you think for a moment, if lets say u commit an offence and you are being jailed for the act, no amount of plea or guilt will lessen the offence isnt it.
because when one die, one is the heir of bad and good kamma and bring it to the next world. does chanting (not comparing to transfering merits) help lessen the bad kamma. -
what do you think? does chanting work for you or it doesn't? if so, what do you think when you chant if will it work or not for the deceased? the living and the deceased mind are not any different in nature. if there is no confidence or faith while living, then what about dead? karma be it good or bad no one escapes. even buddha had karma to reap. attachment is the obstruction.
it depends on the situation / condition / degree of the offence commited or even the conduct of the prisoner while in prison. if there is a favourable chance, it is also possible to plea for lighter punishment or sentence. even so with karma, one may have completely forgotten or have no memory of deeds commited from past lives. when reaping karmic afflictions, blessings, or merits; purification and repentence is still neccesary to lessen karma. even good karma can produce negative karma if one becomes attached to it and turn to arrogance/greed/indulgence. worst still if one retaliates unwholesome karma. the cycle is endless... -
Chanting is part of the transference of merits, and transference of merits helps.Originally posted by marcteng:Let me recall, I also cant remmeber, think he said little help or something. Then he said Buddha uses an analogy, like water and oil. have to listen to his talk again at Youtube.
Anyone got the Buddha's view on this? -
I believe these things only help the living, if anything.
It gives comfort to the living that the deceased will be better off in the next life by the rites that they are performing ma.....
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no one knows what the buddha said on this?
kamma is impersonal, its the law of nature in samsara. whoever commit either good or bad deeds, will inherit it.
the only way not to accumulate kamma is thru enlightenment ie those enlightened being, will not have any kamma henceforth. -
The Buddha taught transference of merits.Originally posted by marcteng:no one knows what the buddha said on this?
kamma is impersonal, its the law of nature in samsara. whoever commit either good or bad deeds, will inherit it.
the only way not to accumulate kamma is thru enlightenment ie those enlightened being, will not have any kamma henceforth.
http://www.jenchen.org.sg/vol5no1a.htm
Ullambana Dharma - not Festival of Hungry Ghosts
By Venerable Shen-Kai
According to a popular Chinese superstition, ghosts are released from hell in the 7th month of the Chinese calendar for a one-month break in the human world. In order to appease them, animals are slaughtered and offered to these 'hungry ghosts', together with other food. Big feasts and other festivities are held during this month and the most 'auspicious day' is the 15th day of the month. It is so widespread that this yearly affair is dubbed the Month or Festival of the Hungry Ghosts. What is this all about?
Among the chief disciples of the Buddha was one named Maudgalyayana. He had immense supernatural powers: Deva-foot ubiquity which made it possible for him to appear at any place at will, the divine sight of Deva-eye to have unlimited vision of all things, large and small, near and distant; Deva-ear to hear all sounds regardless of the distance. Furthermore, he had the ability to read and understand whatever was in a person's mind. He also had the ability to see clearly the events that occurred in a person's many past lives aeons ago. Thus, Maudgalyayana is considered to be a Maha-Bodhisattva who is foremost in supernatural powers.
One day, his Deva-eye saw that his deceased mother had transmigrated to the realm of the hungry ghost. Her stomach was enlarged and she had tiny limbs. Her throat was as small as the eye of a needle, and as a result, it was impossible for her to eat any food or even to swallow a drop of water. Maudgalyayana could not bear the sight of his mother in such an extreme state of suffering. He immediately filled his alms bowl with food and with the immense power that he possessed, he sent it to his mother. However, she could not have the food because each time it turned into charcoal before she could put it in her mouth. It hurt Maudgalyayana to see what was happening and because of his strong emotion for his mother, it hindered his ability to see the karma that she had committed in her past lives. He went to Buddha for advice. The Buddha closed his eyes and entered into pure contemplation. With great compassion and gentleness, he said: "Maudgalyayana, your mother did not believe in the retributions arising from the law of cause and effect. She committed many evil deeds. She dishonoured the Buddha and insulted the Sangha [1], had no respect for the Three Treasures (Buddha, Dharma and Sangha), was greedy, filled with hatred, ignorant and arrogant. She was a wicked person who committed many evils, and she teased others giving them no peace. Therefore, she is suffering such a bitter consequence. Even though you are her son and your filial piety touches the heavens, these are still not able to save a person who had committed such serious evil karma." On hearing this, Maudgalyayana wept in pain.
Notes
1. Sangha
The corporate assembly of at least 3 monks; in general the term has come to mean a monk, or monks.
2. Bodhi
From budh; knowledge, understanding; perfect wisdom; the illuminated or enlightened mind.
The Buddha continued to console him, "It is impossible to rely solely on your own effort to save your mother from the realm of the hungry ghost. The only way is to use the combined merits of the Sangha. The 15th day of the 7th month of each year is designated "Buddha's Joy Day". This is the last day of the Sangha's summer retreat, and because of the purity with which the Sangha observed the precepts and practised cultivation, many attain the Bodhi [2]. The merits that they accumulate are immense beyond imagination, and the Buddha is most delighted. If you make an offering to these Sangha during this time, you can liberate your deceased parents and relatives from the suffering of the three evil realms (realms of animal, hungry ghost and hell) through their immense merits. If the parents are still living, then they shall be blessed with good health, happiness and a life of abundance. This is the truly marvellous method of giving salvation to the deceased." Maudgalyayana was delighted to hear this, and carried out the Buddha's advice accordingly. Thus, on the 15th of the 7th month after the offering to the Sangha, Maudgalyayana's mother was liberated from the suffering of the realm of the hungry ghost.
To give offering to the Sangha in this way is called the 'Ullambana' method. After Maudgalyayana received the benefits from this Dharma, he was very grateful to the Buddha and praised the merits of the Three Treasures. He advised people to promote the 'Ullambana Dharma'. This day, the 15th of the 7th month, can also be considered an occasion to express our gratitude and filial piety to our parents and ancestors. Unfortunately, the passage of time saw a gradual erosion in its understanding and purpose, so much so that this special occasion is not performed in accordance to the Dharma. Today, this auspicious celebration has become a day of widespread slaughter of animals to be used as offering to the hungry ghosts. The original act of performing offerings to the Sangha has become a day for feasting and making offerings to the hungry ghosts, often referred to as 'to invite the good brothers to a feast'. These practices are not only against the compassion of the Buddha, but also a let down to Maudgalyayana who had advised the world to be filial and to perform good deeds.
When we refrain from killing and protect all lives, we actually accumulate the merit of longevity and good health. It is meaningless to kill other living beings and offer them to the ghost, because they cannot benefit from these at all. Instead, those who kill shall have to repay for their action by suffering endlessly in hell. Unless we put an end to all forms of killing, the world forever shall not have peace. If the tradition of offering to the ghosts and the deceased on this day cannot be changed, the least we could do is to replace the slaughter and offer of meat with vegetarian food, flowers or fruits. It does not matter if we are not able to make offerings to the Sangha on this day, but at least we could invite them to chant the sutra for the purpose of liberating the deceased. In this way, it benefits both the living and the deceased. -
It depends on if the person still in bardo or not, if he still in bardo stage. We can chant and dedicate the merit to him, even if it is only a small portion, at least better than nothing.Originally posted by marcteng:I heard Ajahn Brahm said in his talk that when passed away, no amount of chanting can help the deceased.
He said Buddha said, when oil and water were to mix together (pardon me if I am wrong), something like it wont mix, cant remember the words he said.
when one die, one carry both good and bad kamma to the next world isnt it
anyone wanna comment on this?
If you want to generate more merit for the deceased one, do the chanting more sincerely, don't attached to the concept of giver, receiver and the object of giving. With that the merit will be more.
If the person already born in another realm, the chanting though can't change the fact that lets say he born in animal. But it will help in a way, for example, someone will buy the animal and release it or take it home as pet with good care.
Dedication of merit is something that can really take place.
Sometimes we see some people go to mountain for any remote place for long retreat and some thought that person don't think about other beings and no compassion. But in real fact, the amount of merit that they dedicate to the whole world can be much more than people who still strive hard in a human packed place. -
Originally posted by marcteng:
I heard Ajahn Brahm said in his talk that when passed away, no amount of chanting can help the deceased.
He said Buddha said, when oil and water were to mix together (pardon me if I am wrong), something like it wont mix, cant remember the words he said.
when one die, one carry both good and bad kamma to the next world isnt it
anyone wanna comment on this?Allow me to voice my personal views and understanding on this issue.
I wish to point out my main source for my views on this issue: Sutra of Ksitigarbha Bodhisattva (or Earth Store)'s Original Vows.
Kishitigarbha answered, "Now, by Buddha's power, I will explain this in general. Elder, if those beings today or in the future hear a name of Buddha or a Bodhisattva on the day they die, no matter whether they are guilty or not, they can be released from suffering.
If anyone does many evil deeds while alive and his or her relatives do good deeds for them after their death, the deceased will receive a seventh part of the relative's merit.
The remaining merits belong to his or her relatives. If good people today and in the future can promote goodness by themselves, they can obtain every merit.
This above can be found through this weblink: http://web.singnet.com.sg/~elyagaz/Kishitigarbha%20Bodhisattva%20Vow%20Sutra.htm#jp7
There are many ways to help a deceased. Funeral rites, if properly done, with the right intentions and right preparations, will indeed help the deceased to attain a better rebirth in any of the 3 good realms (heaven, human and any Buddha's Pureland).
What are the right intentions?
Utmost sincerity and filial piety on the part of family members to help the deceased prior to and after his/her last breath.
All family members should only think of how sincerely and badly they want to help their deceased family members when reciting faithfully and respectfully the name of any Buddha or Bodhisattva at his/her deathbed.
Such sincerity and compassion will enable the spritual strength in the vows of any Buddha and Bodhisattva to guide the deceased towards a more peaceful and less painful death and a better rebirth in good realms after the deceased's consciousness or what people know as 'soul' has left the body.
The right preparations include not eating any meat or killing any live animals/insects for at least 30 days, the most would be 49 days. This is what Buddhist funeral rites are generally about.
For more details, please consult the sutra of Ksitigarbha Bodhisattva's Original Vows. Feel free to ask again if you come across any verses that you do not understand.
Hope my comments can help in some way.
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Hi Spnw07, [url] no longer works... only HTML codes are accepted, so you have to highlight the URL and press the insert link button next time
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One day a man approached the Buddha and plead him to do a ceremony for his death parents.Well,if Buddha personaly do the ceremony,you can think how powerful it will be,i think sure go to heaven or Brahma realm. The Buddha replied saying that he dont do ceremonies for the dead or living.But,the man keep pestering and pestering,even telling the Buddha that why other sect or religion is doing it and not you. The Buddha knowing its time to help this man.He ask this man to wait for him by the river tomorrow and he will do the ceremony,but must prepare two earthened(made of mud)pot,one contains oil,the other contains stones.The man is so very happy and ran home to prepare everthing the Buddha said,also thinking his parents will be going to a very good place like heaven. The next day the Buddha arrived at the meeting place.He ask the man is everything ready.The man replied yes and very eager and curious waiting to see what the Buddha will do.Now, the Buddha said,"throw the pot containing stones into the river".The Buddha then ask the man to pray and said out loud,stones....ah...stones...ah....please float up.The man stared at Buddha and was thinking not possible right.The man do the same thing to the pot of oil,shouting oil.....ah...oil...ah..please sink down.The man then told the Buddha that it is not possible for stone to float and oil to sink.The Buddha replied,same as the force of Karma,if a man do good he will will float up,if a man do bad action,he sure to sink down.This is the law of Karma.(no matter what religion or believe you are in,you cannot escape that).
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Whether chanting works or not, its still not the main thing. The main thing Ajahn and the Ksitigarbha sutra is trying to tell us is that our karma lies within us and that only we can help ourselves. There is in actual fact nobody that can save us, not even buddha. Therefore a buddhist should never believe that there is any saviour out there who can save us because we really reap what we sow. Whether or not our next life is good or bad really depends on our karma at the end of our this life. There only way to help ourselves is to do good through action,speech and thought. Not saying that chanting is not helpful, but it would be also meaningless if we chant all day yet not wholesome in our action,speech and thought right?
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Let me summarise:
Believe in the compassionate vows of the Bodhisattva and Buddha when chanting. Consistently correct your unwholesome thoughts and behaviour. Whether you succeed or not depends on the right motivation and understanding.
I wish to encourage you by saying: In many scriptures, it is mentioned or clearly implied that those who hear or recite (mantra, sutra, Bodhisattva/Buddha's name) by chance, wholeheartedly, half-heartedly or for the sake of it, will eventually attain spiritual enlightment and hence liberation from all kinds of suffering.This is the same for everyone.
Do your best to chant as sincerely, as wholeheartedly as possible for the deceased, and continue to believe in all Bodhisattvas and Buddhas' compassion and skillful means to help all sentient beings.
With such a mindset, the positive and wholesome energy from your heart will further empower the mantra/sutra/Buddha's name and the merits when dedicated after your recitation will definitely help any deceased.
Take care. ^_^
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Hi,
if i may add my personal views here. In my tradition (Jodo Shinshu - Japanese Pure Land), we conduct funeral and memorial services not for the dead, but more for the living. It gives the living a chance to commemorate the life of the deceased, and enables them to have another opportunity to encounter Buddha-Dharma again. Those who seek rebirth in Amitabha's Pure Land, no matter under what circumstances they died in, if they have entrusted themselves, will be reborn in the Pure Land, so there is no further need for us to dedicate our minute merits (when compared to Amitabha's) to them, since Amitabha has done all the work. All we need, is to recite His Name in Gratitude.
Gassho
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It is possible to help someone who is about to pass away by doing good deeds on their behalf...
1) Offer food dana to monks.
2) Donate the deceased's assets to charity organisation. Other good deeds etc.
3) Dana for printing of dharma materials, temple.
4) If one is skillful, one could remind the person of his/her good deeds during his/her brink of death.
5) Chanting and dedicate the merits to the latter and his/her yuan jia who might come to disturb him/her during his last moment.
As for helping the deceased, i think even if they are reborn into another world. What we do today will affect the environment and people, near or far. This effect of our action might have some effect on the deceased. My two cents.