Skype on Ksitigarbha Bodhisattva (repost)
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This is a repost of Bohiruci's thread.. as I have removed in order to remove my MSN identity. Anonymous2 = me, lalalala ... la = Bohiruci, Anonymous1 does not wish to be identified.
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(8:58 PM) lalalala .... la: a rather text form of discussion
(8:58 PM) Anonymous2: hi
(8:58 PM) Anonymous1: hi
(8:58 PM) lalalala .... la: good evening both monster
(8:58 PM) Anonymous1: ???
(8:58 PM) lalalala .... la: cannot say saint mah
(8:58 PM) lalalala .... la: use monster lor
(8:58 PM) lalalala .... la: just a joke
(8:59 PM) lalalala .... la: get it too hard
(8:59 PM) Anonymous2: wats the discussion now?
(8:59 PM) lalalala .... la: i will share a little on nagarjuna
(8:59 PM) lalalala .... la: then we proceed to kshitigarbha bodhisattva
(8:59 PM) lalalala .... la: nagarjuna is patriach of m yana
(9:00 PM) lalalala .... la: he was born in india and he seen the decadent social ills of the hinayana school
(9:00 PM) lalalala .... la: with the concept of emptiness , he began on a teaching journey expounding emptiness
(9:00 PM) Anonymous2: icic
(9:01 PM) lalalala .... la: in fact
(9:01 PM) Anonymous1: who' the chinese name of nagarjuna?
(9:01 PM) lalalala .... la: long shu
(9:01 PM) lalalala .... la: dragon tree
(9:01 PM) Anonymous1: okiki roger
(9:01 PM) lalalala .... la: the book in my personal library explain the 8 non-alignment of the emptiness
(9:01 PM) lalalala .... la: becos its very long
(9:01 PM) lalalala .... la: i wont dwell too much
(9:01 PM) lalalala .... la: just the gist
(9:02 PM) lalalala .... la: Nagarjuna in his Mahayana comptemplation and insight
(9:02 PM) lalalala .... la: explain to everyone the nature of emptiness
(9:02 PM) lalalala .... la: and define emptiness to the whole world
(9:03 PM) Anonymous2: icic..
(9:03 PM) lalalala .... lavender look real nice on my desk ... lalalaa has changed his/her status to Idle
(9:03 PM) lalalala .... lavender look real nice on my desk ... lalalaa has changed his/her status to Online
(9:03 PM) lalalala .... la: any question ?
(9:03 PM) Anonymous2: Anonymous1.. u read more english or chinese dharma?
(9:03 PM) Anonymous2: hmm not at the moment
(9:04 PM) lalalala .... la: i can borrow this book to those who wants to read it
(9:04 PM) lalalala .... la: no worries abt that
(9:04 PM) Anonymous1: i began from chinese, now starting on eng
(9:04 PM) Anonymous2: icic..
(9:04 PM) lalalala .... la: becos its wisdom to be shared
(9:04 PM) lalalala .... la: y i prefer skype is u can worry abt flooding textbox and have voice
(9:04 PM) lalalala .... la: which bring msg across stronger
(9:05 PM) lalalala .... la: like guanyin ear roots perfection verse
(9:05 PM) lalalala .... la: its says
(9:05 PM) lalalala .... la: our ears is the best practice tools
(9:05 PM) Anonymous1: i can follow ur conv so far
(9:05 PM) lalalala .... la: entering the concept of non-arising nature of vibration of sounds
(9:06 PM) lalalala .... la: and dharma teachings
(9:06 PM) lalalala .... la: and eternalise iit
(9:06 PM) lalalala .... la: and gain Great Insight
(9:07 PM) lalalala .... lavender look real nice on my desk ... lalalaa has changed his/her status to Idle
(9:07 PM) Anonymous2: icic
(9:07 PM) lalalala .... lavender look real nice on my desk ... lalalaa has changed his/her status to Online
(9:07 PM) lalalala .... la: hmmm
(9:07 PM) lalalala .... la: i strike the singing bowl 3 s
(9:07 PM) lalalala .... la: to invite bodhisattva of all directions to gather
(9:08 PM) lalalala .... la: and transference of merits to the ten directions
(9:08 PM) lalalala .... la: okie
(9:08 PM) lalalala .... la: this book is indeed very deep
(9:08 PM) lalalala .... la: no point talking of it yet
(9:09 PM) lalalala .... la: next if Anonymous1 or AEN interested
(9:09 PM) lalalala .... la: i lent u
(9:09 PM) lalalala .... la: its in chinese anyway
(9:09 PM) lalalala .... la: let go to kshitigarbha bodhisattva original vows
(9:09 PM) lalalala .... la: filial piety is the main theme in this sutra
(9:09 PM) Anonymous1 has changed his/her status to Busy
(9:10 PM) lalalala .... la: it talks abt the bright eye lady who vow to save her mother
(9:10 PM) lalalala .... la: fm the hell who was born and waiting to die after 15 years old
(9:10 PM) lalalala .... la: the vow arise the great empathy for all mankind in the sea of samsara
(9:11 PM) lalalala .... la: and Kshitigarbha bodhisattva desribe the actions and deeds that caused a person to fall to hell
(9:11 PM) lalalala .... la: and the different level of punishment in hell
(9:11 PM) lalalala .... la: any question ?
(9:11 PM) Anonymous1: nope
(9:12 PM) lalalala .... la: on a deeper level
(9:12 PM) lalalala .... la: what is the meaning of kshitigarbha bodhisattva
(9:12 PM) lalalala .... la: it is the earth
(9:12 PM) lalalala .... la: the encompass of all good and bad
(9:13 PM) lalalala .... la: the basis of all practice in the m yana vehicle
(9:13 PM) lalalala .... la: without the mind ground
(9:13 PM) lalalala .... la: all practice is virtually impossible
(9:13 PM) lalalala .... la: on a greater level
(9:13 PM) lalalala .... la: its the basic qualities of a bodhisattva
(9:13 PM) lalalala .... la: from the first stage to the final stage towards enlightenment
(9:14 PM) lalalala .... la: someone ask
(9:14 PM) lalalala .... la: issit true Earth Store Bodhisattva is still in hell ?
(9:14 PM) lalalala .... la: what do u think AEN ?
(9:15 PM) lalalala .... la: u there AEN ?
(9:15 PM) Anonymous1: i think he's busy
(9:15 PM) lalalala .... la: okie
(9:15 PM) lalalala .... la: how abt u ?
(9:16 PM) Anonymous1: hmm, it's quite a long answer...do you mind?
(9:16 PM) lalalala .... la: go ahead
(9:16 PM) Anonymous2: sorry was on call
(9:16 PM) Anonymous1: first we have to define what is considered as 'still in hell'
(9:16 PM) lalalala .... la: good
(9:16 PM) Anonymous1: in hell suffering? no way right?
(9:16 PM) Anonymous1: so in hell do what?
(9:17 PM) lalalala .... la: good
(9:17 PM) Anonymous2: what do u mean by "mind ground"
(9:17 PM) lalalala .... la: xin di
(9:17 PM) lalalala .... la: thats the basis of all cultivation starts from
(9:17 PM) Anonymous2: does it mean our buddha nature?
(9:17 PM) lalalala .... la: yes
(9:17 PM) Anonymous2: anyway
(9:17 PM) lalalala .... la: but in kshitigarbha sutra
(9:17 PM) Anonymous2: pls reply his qn first
(9:17 PM) Anonymous2: lol
(9:18 PM) lalalala .... la: his question is wat ?
(9:18 PM) Anonymous2: din realise he asked a qn
(9:18 PM) lalalala .... la: its a pretty complicated thing
(9:18 PM) Anonymous1: that's ok i was trying to say my point of view through questioning
(9:18 PM) lalalala .... la: becos no one scratch his head to erstand that
(9:18 PM) lalalala .... la: no one is suffering in hell
(9:18 PM) lalalala .... la: in the sutra
(9:18 PM) lalalala .... la: the bright eye lady went to look for her mother
(9:19 PM) lalalala .... la: but the hell guard say not to worry
(9:19 PM) lalalala .... la: she have went to a fortunate realm
(9:19 PM) lalalala .... la: from the yogacara or weishi point of view
(9:19 PM) lalalala .... la: this ppl suffer not becos they are "judged"
(9:20 PM) lalalala .... la: but rather its the subconscious mind that punish them
(9:20 PM) lalalala .... la: as a tibetan rinpoche says
(9:20 PM) lalalala .... la: greed causes flood
(9:20 PM) lalalala .... la: anger cause earthquake
(9:20 PM) lalalala .... la: ignorant cause typhoon
(9:20 PM) Anonymous1: why would our subconscious mind 'want' to punish us?
(9:20 PM) lalalala .... la: this is the wonderful part
(9:21 PM) lalalala .... la: becos if one never studied yogacara
(9:21 PM) lalalala .... la: one will feel that "hell " exist
(9:21 PM) lalalala .... la: its actually the karmic forces that cause the arising of the chaotic place hell
(9:21 PM) Anonymous2: Anonymous1: karma is not punishing, it is a natural law, its simply causes and conditions thus resulting in effect -
(9:22 PM) lalalala .... la: so in fact
(9:22 PM) lalalala .... la: even the hell guard is just a manifestation of the mind
(9:22 PM) Anonymous1: but suffering exists for the subjects in this natural law
(9:22 PM) lalalala .... la: our seeds from 8th consciousness is waiting to ripen
(9:22 PM) lalalala .... la: Anonymous1
(9:22 PM) lalalala .... la: let me ask u
(9:22 PM) Anonymous2: Anonymous1: yeah becuase causes and conditions of our bad karma ripens into effect, thus we suffer as a result
(9:23 PM) lalalala .... la: to a person who climb the steep slope of mount everest
(9:23 PM) lalalala .... la: he is straining
(9:23 PM) lalalala .... la: but is he suffering ?
(9:23 PM) lalalala .... la: how sure can we ascertain he will say he is suffering ?
(9:23 PM) Anonymous1: hmm, good question. I have my views on that.
(9:24 PM) lalalala .... la: carry on
(9:24 PM) Anonymous1: i personally think that suffering can be generally defined as 'not be able to tahan it further' for even a second.
(9:24 PM) lalalala .... la: so it which one
(9:24 PM) lalalala .... la: mind or physical ?
(9:25 PM) Anonymous1: it's neither mind or physical per se, but can be both mind and physical at the same time
(9:26 PM) lalalala .... la: k
(9:26 PM) Anonymous1: But ultimately mind can conquer physical if you can attain to the level of sainthood or arahanthood
(9:26 PM) lalalala .... la: understanding it from a yana point of view
(9:26 PM) lalalala .... la: there is no suffering :0
(9:26 PM) lalalala .... la: thats inside heart sutra
(9:27 PM) lalalala .... la: but u arent incorrect Anonymous1
(9:27 PM) lalalala .... la: next thing
(9:28 PM) lalalala .... la: y would Buddha wants to go to the heaven to preach instead of going to earth
(9:28 PM) lalalala .... la: Queen Maya can descend with the heaven subject to listen
(9:28 PM) Anonymous2: suffering is just as real/illusory as what's appearing on my screen right now or the sound of my keyboard typing
(9:29 PM) lalalala .... la: suffering is cease when i hear my singing bowl strike
(9:29 PM) lalalala .... la: everything come to a sonorous calm
(9:29 PM) Anonymous1: if it's illusory who does Bodhisattva need to save? If there's no one to save, why Buddhahood?
(9:29 PM) lalalala .... la: becos a Bodhisattva makes vow
(9:29 PM) Anonymous2: becos its also real
(9:29 PM) Anonymous2: real and illusory are the same side
(9:30 PM) lalalala .... la: he will abide to fulfil his vows
(9:30 PM) lalalala .... la: and vows exceed the workings of karmic power
(9:30 PM) Anonymous2: suffering is cease when i hear my singing bowl strike --> suffering is as real as the singing bowl
(9:30 PM) lalalala .... la: icic
(9:30 PM) Anonymous1: 'vows exceed the workings of karmic power' very interesting
(9:30 PM) lalalala .... la: yes
(9:30 PM) lalalala .... la: this is taught in M yana
(9:30 PM) lalalala .... la: in fact
(9:31 PM) Anonymous2: if we seek buddhism as an escape... thats another illusion
(9:31 PM) lalalala .... la: no one can explain the fact that many ppl in china can reborn in western paradise even he is a butcher
(9:31 PM) lalalala .... la: zhang shan ho
(9:31 PM) lalalala .... la: is a butcher in qing dynasty china
(9:31 PM) Anonymous2: we dont escape from suffering to a peaceful place, thats not the four noble truths buddha taught, we learn to perceive suffering and hence its emptiness
(9:31 PM) Anonymous1: then why or what should we seek buddhism as?
(9:32 PM) lalalala .... la: hmm
(9:32 PM) lalalala .... la: seek buddhism as , Anonymous1 ?
(9:32 PM) Anonymous2: Anonymous1: liberation, but its not an escape
(9:34 PM) Anonymous2: many ppl seek spirituality as an escape... thats just more spiritual ego as thrungpa rinpoche said.. a huge problem
(9:34 PM) lalalala .... la: ya
(9:34 PM) Anonymous2:
From a pure insight practice point of view, you can’t ever fundamentally “let go” of anything, so I sometimes wish the popularity of this misleading and indifference-producing admonition would decline, or at least be properly explained. However, if you simply investigate the truth of the Three Characteristics of the sensations that seemed to be a solid thing, you will come to the wondrous realization that reality is continually “letting go” of itself! Thus, “let it go” at its best actually means, “don’t give a bunch of transient sensations an excessive sense of solidity.” It does not mean, “stop feeling or caring,” nor does it mean, “pretend that the noise in your mind is not there.”
~ Theravadin teacher, Dharma Dan
(9:34 PM) Anonymous1: but to ignorant beings, it's an escape no matter how you explain to them, unless for those who have practised and listened to buddhist teachings from many Buddhas
(9:34 PM) lalalala .... la: correct
(9:35 PM) lalalala .... la: Anonymous1
(9:35 PM) lalalala .... la: they are ignorant
(9:35 PM) lalalala .... la: u arent
(9:35 PM) Anonymous2: Anonymous1: what i mean by escape is avoiding facing their daily life difficulties
(9:35 PM) lalalala .... la: u see Anonymous1
(9:35 PM) Anonymous2: thats an example
(9:35 PM) lalalala .... la: we cannot make the whole world love us
(9:35 PM) Anonymous1: i am ignorant
(9:35 PM) lalalala .... la: but those we have affinity influenced by us
(9:35 PM) lalalala .... la: if i want to do that
(9:36 PM) lalalala .... la: am i the biggest idiot in this world
(9:36 PM) lalalala .... la: imposing mental suffering to myself
(9:36 PM) lalalala .... la: trying to make the whole world convinced
(9:36 PM) lalalala .... la: Hitler wants to rule the world
(9:36 PM) lalalala .... la: but he destroy himself in the end
(9:37 PM) lalalala .... la: theres of course truth in confucian idea
(9:37 PM) lalalala .... la: to pacify oneself , rule the country and pacify the world -
(9:37 PM) lalalala .... la: if one is not pacify
(9:37 PM) lalalala .... la: then how will the country be like
(9:38 PM) lalalala .... la: everyone ruins the country
(9:38 PM) Anonymous1: Anonymous2: they are ignorant, that's why to them escape is the only thing on their mind
(9:38 PM) lalalala .... la: one is the root of all problem
(9:38 PM) lalalala .... la: i think in my many posting
(9:38 PM) lalalala .... la: i said
(9:38 PM) lalalala .... la: there are ppl who like me
(9:38 PM) Anonymous2: Anonymous1: then u're believing in a lie... how can u escape from daily life difficulties? even the buddha faces difficulties
(9:38 PM) lalalala .... la: wait
(9:38 PM) lalalala .... la: wait
(9:39 PM) lalalala .... la: thats too strong a word
(9:39 PM) Anonymous1: but they do not have wisdom like the Buddha
(9:39 PM) lalalala .... la: so if they do not have?
(9:39 PM) lalalala .... la: do u think u need to have ?
(9:39 PM) lalalala .... la: the question is not them
(9:39 PM) lalalala .... la: its you
(9:39 PM) lalalala .... la: and i
(9:39 PM) lalalala .... la: at one moment in , we wanted to make the world our point of view
(9:39 PM) lalalala .... la: our ideal society
(9:40 PM) lalalala .... la: but in the end
(9:40 PM) lalalala .... la: we fall prey to our 3 poison
(9:40 PM) lalalala .... la: so thats still comes back to the question
(9:40 PM) lalalala .... la: what cause this suffering ?Anonymous1 ?
(9:40 PM) Anonymous1: ignorance
(9:41 PM) lalalala .... la: more than that
(9:41 PM) lalalala .... la: wat cause ignorance ?
(9:41 PM) Anonymous2: Anonymous1: then at the very least one must be truthful to oneself... if one takes buddhism as merely a temporary allevation and refuge from his daily life difficulties by temporarily turning his mind away from the difficulties and not facing it, then one will not gain wisdom
(9:41 PM) lalalala .... la: ey
(9:41 PM) lalalala .... la: no AEN
(9:41 PM) lalalala .... la: thats too strong a phrase to use
(9:41 PM) Anonymous1: Anonymous2: i agree to some extent, but yet unfortunately that's how it is for most layman
(9:42 PM) lalalala .... la: u havent answered me ,Anonymous1
(9:42 PM) Anonymous1: bohi: well, ignorance is not something i understand very well from sutras, so nothing much to say
(9:42 PM) Anonymous2: bohiruci: dont tink thats strong at all... im just addressing a common issue
(9:43 PM) lalalala .... la: okie
(9:43 PM) lalalala .... la: the answer is still "I "
(9:43 PM) lalalala .... la: 'I" give rise to suffering
(9:43 PM) Anonymous1: ignorance leads to "I"
(9:43 PM) lalalala .... la: nope
(9:44 PM) lalalala .... la: its "i" that start ignorance
(9:44 PM) lalalala .... la: ignorance is a end result
(9:44 PM) Anonymous1: But how did "i" come in the 1st place?
(9:44 PM) lalalala .... la: the start is still "I"
(9:44 PM) lalalala .... la: delusion of the "I"
(9:45 PM) lalalala .... la: its a chicken and egg question
(9:45 PM) lalalala .... la: between ignorance and "I"
(9:45 PM) Anonymous1: yes, so with wisdom there won't be "l"
(9:45 PM) lalalala .... la: not wisdom
(9:46 PM) lalalala .... la: its Great Wisdom
(9:46 PM) Anonymous1: so how can say "i" leads to ignorance
(9:46 PM) Anonymous1: yes, great wisdom
(9:46 PM) lalalala .... la: without I
(9:46 PM) lalalala .... la: how can have ignorance
(9:46 PM) Anonymous1: if you are not ignorant, why you believe there is an "i"
(9:46 PM) lalalala .... la: thats y i wont want to dwell on whether the infathomable ignorance or I comes first
(9:46 PM) lalalala .... la: no
(9:46 PM) lalalala .... la: not true
(9:47 PM) lalalala .... la: ignorant is since immemorable
(9:47 PM) lalalala .... la: wat do u define as ignorant ?
(9:47 PM) Anonymous1: i don't know, false views generally
(9:47 PM) lalalala .... la: not true
(9:47 PM) lalalala .... la: u arent wrong
(9:47 PM) lalalala .... la: u could have trigger ur search already
(9:48 PM) lalalala .... la: there arent many ppl who is willing to think abt this question
(9:48 PM) lalalala .... la: like those who drunk silly in a pub
(9:48 PM) lalalala .... la: those who dancing wildly on the dance floor now
(9:48 PM) lalalala .... la: those who commit sexual misconduct now
(9:49 PM) Anonymous1: i so bloody concerned cos i'm a sinner, bohi.
(9:49 PM) lalalala .... la: those who machine gunn the ppl
(9:49 PM) Anonymous2: if you are not ignorant, why you believe there is an "i" --> if u are not ignorant, you dont believe there's a separate self
(9:49 PM) lalalala .... la: there is no sinner
(9:49 PM) lalalala .... la: everyone is a future buddha
(9:50 PM) lalalala .... la: every minute a child is born
(9:50 PM) Anonymous1: i don't know, because the Buddha says we are all ignorant, so i just take it that i am
(9:50 PM) lalalala .... la: every breath someone pass away
(9:51 PM) lalalala .... la: may i have all ur permssion to post the convo onto the forum ?
(9:51 PM) Anonymous2: theres no concept of sin and judgement in buddhism... but theres bad karma, good karma, and pure karma. lol
(9:51 PM) lalalala .... la: for other to learn ?
(9:51 PM) Anonymous2: sure, but never never post my msn nick.
(9:51 PM) lalalala .... la: hmm
(9:51 PM) lalalala .... la: okie
(9:51 PM) lalalala .... la: i have to do editing liao
(9:51 PM) lalalala .... la: u AEN ?
(9:51 PM) lalalala .... la: okie with that ?
(9:51 PM) Anonymous2: just use the 'replace all' function
(9:52 PM) lalalala .... la: u mean u want me to take away the Anonymous1 ?
(9:52 PM) Anonymous1: sure, go ahead and post. that's what i want ultimately, to share with all
(9:52 PM) lalalala .... la: okok
(9:53 PM) lalalala .... la: well
(9:53 PM) Anonymous1: don't post my nick too
(9:53 PM) lalalala .... la: its nice to hear fm u Anonymous1
(9:53 PM) lalalala .... la: okie
(9:53 PM) lalalala .... la: i replace with anonymous
(9:53 PM) lalalala .... la: and i post an anonymous sharing ...will that be fine ?
(9:54 PM) Anonymous1: okie
(9:54 PM) lalalala .... la: now
(9:54 PM) lalalala .... la: anymore question
(9:55 PM) lalalala .... la: an hour of discussion is usually good
(9:55 PM) lalalala .... la: so as not to impose everyone
(9:55 PM) lalalala .... la: so any objection to end the discussion
(9:55 PM) lalalala .... la: look out for the next one end jan
(9:55 PM) lalalala .... la: when AEN finish his project
(9:55 PM) lalalala .... la: we will chat again
(9:55 PM) lalalala .... la: okie
(9:56 PM) lalalala .... la: so i put anonymous1 and 2
(9:56 PM) Anonymous2: lol
(9:56 PM) lalalala .... la: for me its nothing
(9:56 PM) lalalala .... la: everyone know who i am
(9:57 PM) lalalala .... la: next skype will be on the aspect of kshitigarbha bodhisattva u feel its application in modern day life
(9:57 PM) lalalala .... la: big big thing there
(9:57 PM) Anonymous2: But how did "i" come in the 1st place? --> "self" is learnt
(9:57 PM) Anonymous2: from young
(9:57 PM) Anonymous2: when we are a baby..
(9:58 PM) Anonymous2: we are taught we are a separate body.. before that we dont even know how to separate body and others
(9:58 PM) lalalala .... la: i thot isnt that ben lai mian mu
(9:58 PM) Anonymous2: after that we start to learn "this is mine"
(9:58 PM) Anonymous2: and then there arises a sense of ownership
(9:58 PM) lalalala .... la: not true -
(9:58 PM) Anonymous2: and the sense of separate self increases as one ages
(9:58 PM) Anonymous2: brb
(9:58 PM) Anonymous2: back
(9:58 PM) lalalala .... la: so why does a baby cry when he got hit on his hand
(9:58 PM) lalalala .... la: when he is naughty
(9:58 PM) Anonymous2: "this is mine" gradually increases from the body to lots of other things
(9:58 PM) Anonymous2: thats a natural reaction from pain,
(9:59 PM) lalalala .... la: so what causes pain ?
(9:59 PM) Anonymous2: but when he is first born he does not have an idea of a separate self yet
(9:59 PM) Anonymous2: but it does not mean he is enlightened
(9:59 PM) Anonymous2: thats just ignorance not knowing
(9:59 PM) Anonymous2: not the enlightened type
(9:59 PM) lalalala .... la: yah
(9:59 PM) lalalala .... la: Anonymous1 any view ?
(10:00 PM) Anonymous1: hmm, a lot
(10:00 PM) Anonymous2: pls share
(10:01 PM) Anonymous1: if the baby does not have idea of separate self, then why does he need to cry? cry is a expression of want, of pain, of dissatisfaction isn't it?
(10:02 PM) lalalala .... lavender look real nice on my desk ... lalalaa has changed his/her status to Idle
(10:02 PM) lalalala .... lavender look real nice on my desk ... lalalaa has changed his/her status to Online
(10:02 PM) Anonymous2: what i mean is the inability to differentiate what is self and what is not self, but it does not mean he cant react
(10:03 PM) Anonymous2: theres a text i read on that.. v gd... dunnu where is it now
(10:03 PM) Anonymous2: if i find i'll share
(10:04 PM) Anonymous1: if he cannot differentiate, why react? reaction is a kind of self-consciousness isn't it?
(10:04 PM) lalalala .... la: okie
(10:04 PM) lalalala .... la: so sorry i have to end this discussion
(10:04 PM) lalalala .... la: i will love to continue but its for the best and health concern
(10:04 PM) lalalala .... la: your can continue while the session is close
(10:05 PM) Anonymous2: Another way to think of this development in less abstract terms is to view the growth of a person from a baby, to a child, to an adolescent, to an adult. As a baby, the baby has no choice but to be egocentric, focused on the very tactile world around himself. In fact, at this stage, the child and his surroundings are completely undifferentiated: the child literally does not know that he and it are different. Moving through childhood, the child continues to differentiate and integrate itself and its surroundings until it reaches a more ethnocentric view of the world, focusing on himself, his family, his friends, his nation, etc. Basically, this is the “Boyscout/Girlscout” age of conformity. The child
(10:05 PM) Anonymous2: so the root of ignorance is still there
(10:05 PM) Anonymous2: just that he isnt able to differentiate what is self
(10:05 PM) lalalala .... la: so with this i transferrence of merit to all who rejoice in this discussion
(10:05 PM) Anonymous2: but he will learn to identify and still react to his surroundings
(10:05 PM) lalalala .... la: ya Anonymous1 u can still continue ur convo with aen
(10:06 PM) lalalala .... la: it wont be recorded on forums already
(10:06 PM) Anonymous1: okie, thx bohi
(10:06 PM) lalalala .... la:
(10:06 PM) lalalala .... la: -
This part is private between me and Anonymous1 after Bohiruci left:
(10:07 PM) Anonymous1: hmm, deep. cannot differentiate yet can identify and react
(10:07 PM) Anonymous2: thats why i said its learnt
(10:07 PM) Anonymous1: who taught?
(10:09 PM) Anonymous2: surroundings, social, parents, basically everything we learnt affects our sense of self
(10:09 PM) Anonymous2: the entire self concept is being learnt, originally there is no such thing
(10:10 PM) Anonymous1: if he cannot differentiate, why does he have the ability to 'learn' all these?
(10:11 PM) Anonymous2:
(1 yrs.) One of the first things a first year baby learns is to separate his own little self from his environment. He learns the difference between his body and his environment by biting successively his blankets and the extremities of his body. The first action hurts not, but the second one can give you a hell of a pain (even without teeth). This biting gives the little baby the feeling that 'body-things' somehow belong to the self but 'non-body-things' do not. Having learned this the consciousness of the little infant has become better, because it is quite essential for its survival and continuation to know the difference between the self and a possibly dangerous and threatening outside. This is the most essential and basic differentiation that has to occur. If this little baby would be able to communicate his newly acquired knowledge to his fellow baby's in the nursery room, who have not as yet acquired these essentials of babyhood, he would somehow acquire a certain leadership in the room. They would appoint him to be the baby in charge.
(1-3 yrs.) In the first three years of
(10:11 PM) Anonymous2: why does he have the ability? through our 6 sense doors
(10:12 PM) Anonymous2:
(1-3 yrs.) In the first three years of his life the little infant learns to understand his primal emotions. He learns how signals of hunger, thirst or loneliness are received by the outside world and how to use these signals for his life support. The first images are formed in mental consciousness. He recognizes the mother, the nipple, the cradle; more and more images are formed as he grows older. All newly formed images make his consciousness better equipped for life. The images and symbols he learns are the most fundamental for his life support. Images and symbols that correspond the most accurately with the desired objects have leadership in consciousness over images that are more remote to these objects.
(3-7 yrs.) With the development of language at this age the first concepts are formed in the mind. With language the capacity for abstraction is greatly enhanced, but the mind is still mainly representational. Its function to operate upon the words and images is still rudimentary developed, but now, with the help of language, communication works so much better. The first occu
(10:13 PM) Anonymous2: http://www.trans4mind.com/counterpoint/harris21.shtml
(10:13 PM) Anonymous2: When a baby is born, it cannot tell the difference between self and not-self. Researchers describe the infant's experience at this stage as "oceanic". The child has no boundaries, and the experience is one of being undifferentiated from the material world. Everything is self. (This is, by the way, not the same experience as the oneness experience of enlightenment, because it does not include a developed awareness of self.)
But as the baby interacts with the environment, it makes the distinction between self and not-self. It bites its finger, and feels pain. It bites its blanket and it doesn't feel pain. The baby begins to realize that the finger is self and the blanket is not-self. This is the beginning of the awareness that such a thing as not-self exists. Some part of what was thought to be the self (which in this case included everything), now is experienced as not-self. The physical body becomes subject (by which I mean the center from which everything else is experienced) and the rest of the world becomes object.
(10:14 PM) Anonymous1: icic, agree, however, the thing is, this learning ability is so natural, but yet it harms him in his spiritual cultivation. such a paradox man
(10:15 PM) Anonymous2: it depends.. thats why we should close our six sense doors
(10:15 PM) Anonymous2: guard it with mindfulness
(10:15 PM) Anonymous2: Here the Lord Buddha said, `Your six sense doors must be closed so that you don't have any mental defilements.` Then do you know how to close the door? By noting of six things, six consciousness of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, and thinking about.
(10:15 PM) Anonymous2:
This is the point, what the Buddha said. When you see, say, a very beautiful rose you realise the rose is very beautiful. Its scent is very sweet. When you judge like that there arises a pleasant feeling about the rose. When you feel a pleasant feeling what will arise? Attachment, to what? To the rose. To the feeling or to the rose? To the rose. And pleasant feeling, attachment, arises dependent on that feeling. This attachment is to the rose. Then if the flower is not beautiful, is ugly and produces a bad smell, when you see it how do you feel, pleasant or unpleasant? Unpleasant. You'll judge the flower is very ugly, `I don't want to see it.` Then what mental state arises? Aversion. Anger.
(10:15 PM) Anonymous2: http://www.buddhanet.net/vmed_7.htm
(10:16 PM) Anonymous2:
When you judge the flower is beautiful and pleasant then you have attachment or desire for it or to it. When you judge the flower is ugly and produces a bad odour then you have aversion or anger depending on the unpleasant feeling. Here you could not close your eye doors so these mental defilements come into the mind. One of the mental defilements comes to your mind through the eye doors. Then when you have defilements is it good or bad? Bad. Yes. Mental defilement is dukkha, suffering, and also the cause of dukkha, suffering.
Then what's the thing with which you have to close these six doors? Noting, yes, mindfulness. Mindfulness is called sati, in Pali. So you must close all these six doors with mindfulness. And do you know how to close them with mindfulness? Yes, noting, being mindful of. That's why the Buddha said, `Whatever you see must be noted or mindful of, as it is. Whatever you hear must be mindful of or noted. Whatever you smell must be observed. Whatever you taste you must be aware of. Whatever you touch must be noted. Whatever you think about must be watched, as it is
(10:16 PM) Anonymous2: etc...
(10:17 PM) Anonymous1: Our six sense 'exist' but yet we have to learn to close it. it sounds pretty self-torturing
(10:18 PM) Anonymous2: Initiated a file transfer
(10:18 PM) Anonymous2: close it does not mean we ignore
(10:18 PM) Anonymous2: or shut out six sense
(10:18 PM) Anonymous2: its not the same -
A correction: suffering is not real, but the appearances of pain and suffering continues to arise vividly, even suffering is an expression of our natural clarity. Therefore 'not real' does not mean 'non existence.' Compassion is feeling for others of their sufferings, but a Bodhisattva also knows at the same time, as Diamond Sutra says, there is no sentient beings to be saved at all.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:(9:28 PM) Anonymous2: suffering is just as real/illusory as what's appearing on my screen right now or the sound of my keyboard typing
(9:29 PM) lalalala .... la: suffering is cease when i hear my singing bowl strike
(9:29 PM) lalalala .... la: everything come to a sonorous calm
(9:29 PM) Anonymous1: if it's illusory who does Bodhisattva need to save? If there's no one to save, why Buddhahood?
(9:29 PM) Anonymous2: becos its also real
(9:29 PM) Anonymous2: real and illusory are the same side
(9:30 PM) Anonymous2: suffering is cease when i hear my singing bowl strike --> suffering is as real as the singing bowl
(9:31 PM) Anonymous2: if we seek buddhism as an escape... thats another illusion
(9:31 PM) Anonymous2: we dont escape from suffering to a peaceful place, thats not the four noble truths buddha taught, we learn to perceive suffering and hence its emptiness
(9:31 PM) Anonymous1: then why or what should we seek buddhism as?
(9:32 PM) Anonymous2: Anonymous1: liberation, but its not an escape
When we talk about ultimate reality, nothing must be excluded. Suffering is empty, so is the sound of the singing bowl, so is Buddhahood itself. Nothing is real at all, even Buddhahood. No attainments, no Buddha, no Bodhisattva, no Arhat.
When we attempt to escape from our difficulties into a peaceful state, then we are seeking a peaceful state thinking it is real, and also taking our suffering to be real, and therefore a need to 'escape' into somewhere... Both are illusions and so we are believing in a lie. There is only "what is".
Buddhism never teaches escape, but clear seeing leading to liberation. -
Hi AEN,Originally posted by An Eternal Now:A correction: suffering is not real, but the appearances of pain and suffering continues to arise vividly, even suffering is an expression of our natural clarity. Therefore 'not real' does not mean 'non existence.' Compassion is feeling for others of their sufferings, but a Bodhisattva also knows at the same time, as Diamond Sutra says, there is no sentient beings to be saved at all.
When we talk about ultimate reality, nothing must be excluded. Suffering is empty, so is the sound of the singing bowl, so is Buddhahood itself. Nothing is real at all, even Buddhahood. No attainments, no Buddha, no Bodhisattva, no Arhat.
When we attempt to escape from our difficulties into a peaceful state, then we are seeking a peaceful state thinking it is real, and also taking our suffering to be real, and therefore a need to 'escape' into somewhere... Both are illusions and so we are believing in a lie. There is only "what is".
Buddhism never teaches escape, but clear seeing leading to liberation.
Thanks for the profound sharing
There is no escape is something that people are unwilling to see. Even spiritual seekers. -
“If, further, a man permanently severs all toil and anxiety, he will realize the dharmadhatu in its purity. However, his undermining of purity may become his obstruction and he will not attain freedom and ease regarding Complete Enlightenment. This is called ‘the ordinary man’s accordance with the nature of enlightenment.”
“Virtuous man, all bodhisattvas realize that this very understanding is a hindrance. Although they sever themselves from this hindrance of understanding, they still abide in this realization. The realization of hindrance is yet another hindrance. Therefore they do not have freedom and ease. This is called ‘the bodhisattva before the stage of the first bhumi’s accordance with the nature of enlightenment.”
“Virtuous man, ‘attaining’ illumination and realization is a hindrance. Thus a great bodhisattva is constantly in realization without abidance, where the illumination and the illuminator simultaneously become quiescent and vanish. For instance, if a man beheads himself, there exists no executioner after the head has been severed. It is the same with eliminating various hindrances with a mind of hindrance: when the hindrances have been eliminated, there is no eliminator. The teachings of the sutras are like the finger that points to the moon. When one sees the moon, one realizes that the finger is not the moon. Likewise, the various teachings of all Tathagatas in instructing bodhisattvas are also like this. This is called ‘the bodhisattva above the stage of the first bhumi’s accordance with the nature of enlightenment.’
THE SUTRA OF COMPLETE ENLIGHTENMENT
(Bodhisattva of Pure Wisdom)
http://www.prajna.nl/teksten/onderricht/soetras/complete/
thanks to marcteng on bringing up buddha's simile/analogy of the "oil and water do not mix" in another thread, that which (for me) stretched wide the excercise for contemplation. since oil and water though are of the same fluid liquid nature, due to natural discrimination of texture and degree of penetration, both have in fact no Real substance to arrive at. in suffering and the sufferer / enlightenment and the enlightened being, is the same. no one escapes suffering and what more, no one would also escape enlightenment. both are just the flipping side of one's true nature. it's just when one turns around (one day) and there one sees... uh so it is just so. therefore, no enlightenment no suffering is measured or compared like who is more or less suffering/enlightened or amazed at the idea of suffering or enlightenment.
amituofo... -
Thanks, paperflower
In what I began to read after the jungle, and among the people I come across, much importance is made of this thing called awakening or enlightenment. Although I have used the word 'awaken' to express the moment of the shift in perception that occurred in the jungle, at times it seems that this is a misnomer; that the word in this context makes very little sense.
There is a sense in which there is no 'awakening,' no enlightenment, because there is no 'one' to awaken. Who would this be? Who is awakened?
'Me,' david? Of course not: david is a dream character, an idea, a fiction; not the dreamer, and therefore obviously cannot awaken. There is no 'david' to do anything including awaken.
Or is it 'Who I Really Am' that has 'awakened;' Presence, Awareness, All That Is?
But of course Awareness has never been asleep, has no need to awaken to anything; Awareness is always already All There Is.
Clearly then, there is no one to awaken.. 'Awakening' is only an analogy, a concept, a pointer. The seeker community tends to take it literally, but like most analogies it only takes you so far.
What has happened is more like this: in the dream, in the case of the dream character 'david,' All That Is stops pretending that 'It' is asleep. What has always been awake lets the misunderstanding that there is some on to be asleep and some one to awaken, fall away.
That is all. And the dream continues, as before. The misunderstanding has fallen away, but the misunderstanding was not real anyway, so what has happened? Nothing. The dream character 'david' now knows he is only a dream, not 'real;' knows it is all a dream. But even this dream character's 'knowing' is part of the dream, part of the unfolding of the script of the dream for that dream character, and nothing has happened. The dream character goes on being the dream character.
'Nothing happens' precisely because what appears to be happening is not, and what is happening is what appears as 'no thing'. -
Joan Tollifson once asked Toni “if she'd ever had one of those big awakenings where life turns inside out and all identification with the body-mind ceases.
Toni replied, "I can't say I had it," she replied. "It's this moment, right now."