Can hell really become empty of suffering beings?
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Beginners to Buddhism have a hard time; at least for some or most of them.
There are many metaphors, similes, figuratives and analogies in the Buddhist teachings, namely sutras for example; so many that not all can tell exactly which are real statistics and which are just figurative figures and fictional analogies to illustrate a certain point.
For example:
The most commonly known quote for all or most Buddhists is
"I shall not attain Buddhahood until all beings are liberated from hell" (it refers broadly to all that are suffering in the 3 evil realms or those who are not yet free from countless cycles of birth and death).
Now, can hell really be literally empty? I don't know..
Cos no being with consciousness can escape from being attached to the notion of 'self'. As a result, all sentient beings, think, feel and act in accordance to that self-projected ego, to seek ways to satisfy 'it' and hence have to go through samsaric life and death for all their good and bad deeds.
At a certain point in time, some may gain enough spiritual wisdom to be free totally after a few rebirths or during their present lifetime. But how is this compared to other countless beings in 3 evil realms or the entire samasaric cycles experienced by all sentient beings in the ten directions?
Even if at a certain point in time all beings in a certain hell (say Avici hell) is delivered totally by any Bodhisattva or Buddha, many countless 'new' ones will continue be born there to so-called fill in the places that very instant. This is due to karmic forces that no one can prevent or stop.
So is Kstigarbha Bodhisattva's vow a mere metaphor or a figurative to encourage or comfort all of us?
If it is just a metaphor or figurative to encourage, comfort or to warn, then what hope can I have?
It's just like saying 'son, I will not rest till I can see that you know how to really take good care of yourself and at the same time love and care for others like I do for you.'
But your parents are not immortals, they will die, or they will grow sick and not being able to communicate to you, sometimes totally. What if they die or become totally uncommunicative due to sickness before you really become what they have always hope for you to become?
So are your parents making empty promises? Was it just a lecture, a warning, a form of encouragement or reassurance?
The teaching is there, waiting for you to practise. But yet, you are now alone in facing all sorts of temptations and adversity. If you are strong and steadfast in following the teaching, you will survive and grow up to be a useful person. If not, too bad...God (or Buddha) knows what will happen to you...
Are the vows of Bodhisattvas or Buddhas like a rope, a boat or a ray of light for those who can swim or climb? To me, those who are not as strong in mind and heart are like those with no legs, but hands or vice versa. I don't think anyone can climb a mountain or swim with just two legs or two hands.
Many times, I feel very confused and helpless about the whole thing as I try to understand it using the 'non-attachment' concept taught in the Diamond sutra: There is no sentient being to save, there is no Bodhisattva to save them. Something like that.
So during those days I would choose to view the Bodhisattva's vows in a literal way: that one day, all sentient beings in any form of suffering will be helped by Ksitigarbha Bodhisattva and they shall never have to suffer again. That helps me to feel at peace, that helps me to feel loved and cared for. Cos before anyone really succeeds in attaining non-attachment or anatta, they still are attached to the need for love and concern from others, though in different degrees, in different aspects in life.
Try it, dear friends who are still struggling in the cultivation of non-attachment and anatta as taught in the Diamond sutra. Believe in the compassionate vows of Ksitigarbha Bodhisattva, Amitabha Buddha or any Bodhisattva LITERALLY.
Believe that they are always with you, even if you have not attained non-attachment. And even if at present or throughout your whole life, you still find yourself caring more about yourself than others. As long as you still believe in, somewhere deep inside you, that ultimately, the Law of Cause and Effect spoken by all Buddhas is true, without any deliberate embellishment or distortion, you will one day see the Truth for yourself in time to come.
Don't hurry, don't panic. But neither should you be lazy. If you are lazy, you will still see the Truth one day, only much, much longer than those who work hard at it, in following Buddha's teachings.
I feel and share your pain, those who are lazy. I feel and share your pain, those who think they are slow. I feel and share your pain, those who still can't achieve non-attachment on their last breaths.
Your life will never have been lived in vain, if you have heard of the name of any Bodhisattva or Buddha, or simply just Namo Buddhaya. (�摩佛） Heard, as in just hearing with your ear, no belief at all.
We will meet some day, cos I have vowed to a Bodhisattva disciple of all Buddhas, be it past, present, about to come, or yet to come.
Till then, I wholeheartedly wish you all the best in your cultivation. May you succeed in freeing yourself from the bondages of greed, anger/hatred and unwholesome views. May you succeed in becoming a fully-enlightened Buddha.
Amituofo! :)
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Wrong, hell can never be relived of all sufferring beings, nor can all humans attain enlightenment.
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yah , it's hard to break free from samsara .
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Originally posted by Spnw07:
Don't hurry, don't panic. But neither should you be lazy. If you are lazy, you will still see the Truth one day, only much, much longer than those who work hard at it, in following Buddha's teachings.
I feel and share your pain, those who are lazy. I feel and share your pain, those who think they are slow. I feel and share your pain, those who still can't achieve non-attachment on their last breaths.
I think finally you understand that sometimes it is better to take nature takes its course -
This are so call,Fang Pien fa meng.Buddhism is more than 2500 years old.There are many mixture of culture in it.Very confusing!Many doubt also!
Truth can doubt and question at! No Budha or Bodhisattva is going to punish you for doubting or questioning.Real gold is not afraid of fire.
But,my personal opinion is,it is better to learn the very basic of Buddhism,because Dharma can be experience right here and now,not wait after death.For example,the three Dharma seal is Suffering,permanence and non-self.The 4 noble truth and 8 fold path.This kind of Dharma will not give you doubt.Believe or not it is happening in you right now.It is the truth of all beings.It is founded by the Lord Buddha not create by somebody.Truth is discovered not created.
If you kill the,I, or ego.Then there will be no heaven and hell.No Buddha,no Bodhisattva.
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Been a little busy lately and will be busy for the week... so never post much.
http://www.jenchen.org.sg/vol8no2a.htm
After the Existence Kalpa, the Destruction Kalpa begins. Within this Destruction Kalpa, there are also 20 small kalpas. During the 19th small kalpa, sentient beings in every world, including the earth world, of the Three Thousand Great Chilocosm will be the first to be destroyed. Then, through aeons of kalpas, as a result of the efforts of many Buddhas and Bodhisattvas of the Ten Directions in the Three Periods (past, present and future) to enlighten sentient beings, all sentient beings learn to change their wicked ways and lead virtuous lives instead. When many sentient beings transmigrate from the six realms of existence into the human realm and successfully received the guidance, and when hell has emptied so that there isn't a single sentient being left there, then the 20th small kalpa of the Destruction Kalpa starts. Ksitigarbha Bodhisattva (
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vowed: "As long as hell is not empty, I shall not become Buddha.
Only when all sentient beings are guided and saved, will I attain
supreme enlightenment." One can thus see that the great vow of Ksitigarbha
Bodhisattva can be accomplished. All sentient beings can be guided
and saved, and he will then attain Buddhahood. -
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
Wrong, hell can never be relived of all sufferring beings, nor can all humans attain enlightenment.
Of course not. All sentient beings's Buddha Nature is complete and all will attain Buddhahood eventually.
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It is possible to become empty, by the karmic force of its beings there. If all hell being's karma have exhausted, then it becomes empty doesnt it?
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
http://www.jenchen.org.sg/vol8no2a.htm
After the Existence Kalpa, the Destruction Kalpa begins. Within this Destruction Kalpa, there are also 20 small kalpas. During the 19th small kalpa, sentient beings in every world, including the earth world, of the Three Thousand Great Chilocosm will be the first to be destroyed. Then, through aeons of kalpas, as a result of the efforts of many Buddhas and Bodhisattvas of the Ten Directions in the Three Periods (past, present and future) to enlighten sentient beings, all sentient beings learn to change their wicked ways and lead virtuous lives instead. When many sentient beings transmigrate from the six realms of existence into the human realm and successfully received the guidance, and when hell has emptied so that there isn't a single sentient being left there, then the 20th small kalpa of the Destruction Kalpa starts. Ksitigarbha Bodhisattva (
) vowed: "As long as hell is not empty, I shall not become Buddha. Only when all sentient beings are guided and saved, will I attain supreme enlightenment." One can thus see that the great vow of Ksitigarbha Bodhisattva can be accomplished. All sentient beings can be guided and saved, and he will then attain Buddhahood.Can elaborate further? So we are in which small kalpa now?
From which scripture or sutra can we find the above proof?
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Originally posted by wilsonhao:
It is possible to become empty, by the karmic force of its beings there. If all hell being's karma have exhausted, then it becomes empty doesnt it?
Yah, but if you have read the sutra of Ksitigarbha Bodhisattva's Original Vows, you will know that there are many Avici and Abyss hells in different worlds. Our svaha world has its own Avici and Abyss hell and it's the same for other worlds.
Those who slander the Bodhisattva in thoughts or actions will suffer for so long in 3 evil realms that even after 1000 Buddhas have come and finally gone into Parinibbana, these beings are still suffering very severely for their karma.
The sutra goes on to say that, even after the Avici and Abyss hells they are in has been disintegrated due to exhaustion of karmic force or Destruction/Void kalpa, they will be reborn in the hells of other worlds.
Such pain, such suffering...I feel so much for them and for myself, for I have sinned... and am continuing to sin...
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Originally posted by Spnw07:
Can elaborate further? So we are in which small kalpa now?
From which scripture or sutra can we find the above proof?
We are now in the 9th small kalpa of Existence Kalpas. I don't know which sutra though, though I found similar statements in other websites: http://www.dharmaling.org/component/option,com_glossary/func,display/letter,All/page,4/catid,25/Itemid,78/
Kalpa of continuance (tib.: re pe kal pa) Lifespans drop from 80,000 years down to ten years (this is called kalpa of decrease) because people are doing the ten nonvirtues more and more, which creates disturbances in the world. People create more and more powerful weapons. Most people are living in cities. Some people are out in the country when the weapons of destruction are unleashed, and only they survive. The few who survive are overcome with remorse, and decide to give up the ten non-virtues. Lifespans increase from ten years back up to 80,000 years (this is called kalpa of increase). This cycle repeats. Kalpa of destruction (tib.: jik pe kal pa) In the first nineteen small kalpas of the kalpa of decline, sentient beings in the six lower worlds from hell through the world of heavenly beings gradually disappearAt the beginning of the 20th eon, the rain stops and all vegetation dies, the sun supernovas, and splits into two. Later a third sun forms, and all rivers and streams evaporate. A fourth sun forms, and large lakes dry up. A fifth sun forms, and oceans dry up. A sixth sun forms, and continents go up in smoke. A seventh sun forms, and the planet burns up, which also causes the first level of the form realm to burn up. There are other kalpas of destruction by wind or water. There are also minor destruction eons where inhabitants destroy the planet with weapons, etc. Kalpa of formation (tib.: chak pe kal pa) According to Abhidharmakosha, the power of the karma of living beings first causes a small wind to arise in space. This wind grows and forms the windy circle thought to lie at the base of a world. Upon this windy circle, a watery circle and then a gold circle take shape, and upon them forms the land, with a Mount Sumeru, seas, and mountains. Then living beings begin to appear, first in the heavens, then in the human world, and successively in the lower of the six worlds, until finally beings appear in the hells. Human lives are immeasurable (a specific number with > 30 zeros) at this point. The formation eon ends when the first being is born in Avichi hell. Lifespans have dropped to 80,000 years at that point. It's all stated in that article.... more info from http://www.jenchen.org.sg/vol8no2a.htm:
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Before the 19th small kalpa, all the sentient beings that are above the 1st Jhana [1] , and in all the worlds from the 1st Jhana down to the Hell of Ceaseless Suffering, will transmigrate, each according to his own good karmic seeds of the past. Some will transmigrate above the 2nd Jhana; some will surpass Three Fields of Existence (World of Desires, World of Forms, and World of Formless); and others will arrive at Pure Lands of Buddhas elsewhere. At this time, the world of sentient beings will be totally ruined. Only then, at the end of the final phase of the last small kalpa, will the "Three Great Calamities" occur, destroying all the material worlds. These three calamities of fire, water and wind will not occur simultaneously, but each will take its turn. At that time, balance in space will be lost, planets of all the worlds will leave their orbits, and looking from the earth, one will see seven suns appear in the sky at the same time. The suns' fiery heat will burn up all the worlds. The destruction will reach the farthest depths of the Hell of Ceaseless Suffering, including all the worlds of the Three Thousand Great Chilocosm World of Desires, and even the 1st Jhana of the World of Forms.
After the passing of the "Great Fire Calamity" comes the "Great Water Calamity". The worlds from the 2nd Jhana Plane in the World of Form down through the Hell of Ceaseless Suffering will be engulfed by floodwaters.
Next, the Great Wind Calamity follows. All the worlds below the 3rd Jhana down to the Hell of Ceaseless Suffering will be blown away like dust. All the materials will be dispersed into oblivion.
When the above-described Three Great Calamities destroy the world, each calamity will not be over in the passing of a single event. Each event will recur one after another. First, there will be seven Great Fire Calamities followed by one Great Water Calamity. This sequence of seven Fire and one Water Calamities will recur seven times, after which the Great Wind Calamity will finally occur. So altogether, there will be 56 Great Fire Calamities, seven Great Water Calamities, and one Great Wind Calamity, making a total of 64 calamities. When all the worlds go through the course of these Great Calamities and enter the Void Kalpa, then it is truly "End of the World".
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
We are now in the 9th small kalpa of Existence Kalpas. I don't know which sutra though, though I found similar statements in other websites: http://www.dharmaling.org/component/option,com_glossary/func,display/letter,All/page,4/catid,25/Itemid,78/
It's all stated in that article.... more info from http://www.jenchen.org.sg/vol8no2a.htmI don't know if I understand your comments and excerpts correctly. So here goes:
After all sentient beings are destroyed in the 19th small kalpa, the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas of all ten directions will work hard to guide and deliver all beings after the world has reformed.
Then what will follow is:
"When many sentient beings transmigrate from the six realms of existence into the human realm and successfully received the guidance, and when hell has emptied so that there isn't a single sentient being left there, " then the 20th small kalpa of the Destruction Kalpa starts.
The condition that many sentient beings successfully be reborn as humans and received spiritual guidance is achievable, no doubt. But to make sure that the condition 'when hell has emptied' is achieved, is like, wow, I don't know...
Seriously, I doubt If the time period between the 19th small kalpa and the 20th one is sufficient enough for all beings to be guided by bodhisattvas and Buddhas of all ten directions.
Furthermore, if we are indeed in the 9th small kalpa of the Existence era, we have wait for a very unimaginably long time before the Destruction era comes and for it to end.
And even when some of us manage to be reborn as humans after the Destruction era, I wonder how many will hear of the Dharmma and be able to benefit directly to gain liberation from samsaric existence in that one lifetime.
Some of them may have heavy karmic burdens and so even they may hear of the Dharmma, they cannot understand or believe. Then isn't it useless or futile in a way?
My mom, who's a buddhist, has the personal view that Ksitigarbha Bodhisattva has already attained Buddhahood but is just manifesting as a Tenth-stage Bodhisattva. I find it to be quite an reasonable assumption.
Hell can never be empty. The instant one batch is delivered, another batch appears...But of course, we have no proofs, except by inferring from scriptures on our own. Hence I express my doubts here for any wise Buddhist brother/sisters to shed light into this great vow.
Is the vow to be taken literally or figuratively? How should we interpret this greatest vow by the Bodhisattva?
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I don't know if I understand your comments and excerpts correctly. So here goes:
After all sentient beings are destroyed in the 19th small kalpa, the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas of all ten directions will work hard to guide and deliver all beings after the world has reformed.
Then what will follow is:
"When many sentient beings transmigrate from the six realms of existence into the human realm and successfully received the guidance, and when hell has emptied so that there isn't a single sentient being left there, " then the 20th small kalpa of the Destruction Kalpa starts.
The condition that many sentient beings successfully be reborn as humans and received spiritual guidance is achievable, no doubt. But to make sure that the condition 'when hell has emptied' is achieved, is like, wow, I don't know...
SW: emptied as in no longer fit for beings to be there any more, since the 4 elemental destruction is coming perhaps. this is refering to our saha world(Threefold worlds). hell beings if not finished their "sentences" are transfered to other hell realms in another threefold world perhaps.
Seriously, I doubt If the time period between the 19th small kalpa and the 20th one is sufficient enough for all beings to be guided by bodhisattvas and Buddhas of all ten directions.
SW: the key word is Before instead of between. "Before the 19th small kalpa...."
Furthermore, if we are indeed in the 9th small kalpa of the Existence era, we have wait for a very unimaginably long time before the Destruction era comes and for it to end.
SW: what u mean?
so "9th small kalpa of the Existence era" is like our "world" is 29 years old out of 80 years lifespan. 20 years for formation/birth; 20 for existence/old age; 20 for destruction/sickness; 20 for ending/death. so 41 years old is starting of destruction/sickness. at such an age onward, our 3 posions normally are more unbothered or 看得开 already, hence the metaphor in another perspective.
And even when some of us manage to be reborn as humans after the Destruction era, I wonder how many will hear of the Dharmma and be able to benefit directly to gain liberation from samsaric existence in that one lifetime.
SW: after? what after? no more after already mah. BEFORE destruction era, all go to 2nd Jhana heaven already. like 40 plus person, got some "stillness" in them per se.
Some of them may have heavy karmic burdens and so even they may hear of the Dharmma, they cannot understand or believe. Then isn't it useless or futile in a way?
SW: no more "them" liao mah. unless, those transfered to other threefold world. yes, "heavy karmic burdens" still remain. you have to see the point from Our saha world(ourself) and the point from Other threefold world(others). there's a metaphoric understanding.
My mom, who's a buddhist, has the personal view that Ksitigarbha Bodhisattva has already attained Buddhahood but is just manifesting as a Tenth-stage Bodhisattva. I find it to be quite an reasonable assumption.
SW: yes, both conventional and ultimate is true.
Hell can never be empty. The instant one batch is delivered, another batch appears...But of course, we have no proofs, except by inferring from scriptures on our own. Hence I express my doubts here for any wise Buddhist brother/sisters to shed light into this great vow.
Is the vow to be taken literally or figuratively? How should we interpret this greatest vow by the Bodhisattva?
SW: Within our saha threefold world, it's emptied. then Earth Store simply go and manifest in other threefold world . Even manifest Concurrently also can. no big deal. it act as a tool of Bodhi teaching. ;)
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Originally posted by sinweiy:
Seriously, I doubt If the time period between the 19th small kalpa and the 20th one is sufficient enough for all beings to be guided by bodhisattvas and Buddhas of all ten directions.
1) SW: the key word is Before instead of between. "Before the 19th small kalpa...."
Furthermore, if we are indeed in the 9th small kalpa of the Existence era, we have wait for a very unimaginably long time before the Destruction era comes and for it to end.
2) SW: what u mean?
so "9th small kalpa of the Existence era" is like our "world" is 29 years old out of 80 years lifespan. 20 years for formation/birth; 20 for existence/old age; 20 for destruction/sickness; 20 for ending/death. so 41 years old is starting of destruction/sickness. at such an age onward, our 3 posions normally are more unbothered or 看得开 already, hence the metaphor in another perspective.
And even when some of us manage to be reborn as humans after the Destruction era, I wonder how many will hear of the Dharmma and be able to benefit directly to gain liberation from samsaric existence in that one lifetime.
3) SW: after? what after? no more after already mah. BEFORE destruction era, all go to 2nd Jhana heaven already. like 40 plus person, got some "stillness" in them per se.
Some of them may have heavy karmic burdens and so even they may hear of the Dharmma, they cannot understand or believe. Then isn't it useless or futile in a way?
4) SW: no more "them" liao mah. unless, those transfered to other threefold world. yes, "heavy karmic burdens" still remain. you have to see the point from Our saha world(ourself) and the point from Other threefold world(others). there's a metaphoric understanding.
My mom, who's a buddhist, has the personal view that Ksitigarbha Bodhisattva has already attained Buddhahood but is just manifesting as a Tenth-stage Bodhisattva. I find it to be quite an reasonable assumption.
5) SW: yes, both conventional and ultimate is true.
Hell can never be empty. The instant one batch is delivered, another batch appears...But of course, we have no proofs, except by inferring from scriptures on our own. Hence I express my doubts here for any wise Buddhist brother/sisters to shed light into this great vow.
Is the vow to be taken literally or figuratively? How should we interpret this greatest vow by the Bodhisattva?
6) SW: Within our saha threefold world, it's emptied. then Earth Store simply go and manifest in other threefold world . Even manifest Concurrently also can. no big deal. it act as a tool of Bodhi teaching. ;)
Pt 1> Where does the word 'before' come from? Which or whose quote are you referring to?
Pt 2, 3 and 4> I don't quite understand what you're trying to say..
Pt 5> Why is both conventional and ultimate true?
Pt 6> Earth Store Bodhisattva has gone through countless kalpas, surely there are kalpas when hell is emptied, for example: Destruction kalpas in saha world. But that doesn't count as hell being empty right?
My question is on what really counts as hell being empty in Earth Store's vows.
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Originally posted by Spnw07:
Pt 1> Where does the word 'before' come from? Which or whose quote are you referring to?
SW: am refering to AEN's quote, "Before the 19th small kalpa, all the sentient beings that are above the 1st Jhana [1] ,.."
Pt 2, 3 and 4> I don't quite understand what you're trying to say..
SW: #2 i also don't know what you mean. you say "Furthermore, if we are indeed in the 9th small kalpa of the Existence era, we have wait for a very unimaginably long time before the Destruction era comes and for it to end."
i tot the longer time it is the better for all to be liberated?
Pt 5> Why is both conventional and ultimate true?
SW: you never heard of conventional and ultimate truth? conventional is said for people to understand. we still need duality to understand. but ultimately, words cannot describe the ultimate truth. like a finger pointing to the moon, the finger pointing is conventional, the moon is the actual/ultimate.
Pt 6> Earth Store Bodhisattva has gone through countless kalpas, surely there are kalpas when hell is emptied, for example: Destruction kalpas in saha world. But that doesn't count as hell being empty right?
SW: it count from the Perspective of saha world. but doesn't count from the Perspective of Dharma world. there... it's non-dual.
My question is on what really counts as hell being empty in Earth Store's vows.
SW: that say "When one realised one's True self/mind/buddhanature, then all sentient beings are Buddhas. But if one looses one's True self/mind/buddhanature, then all Buddhas are sentient beings."
when u say count, it's correct, when you say don't count, it's also correct. because, i non-dual. get what i mean. (not that i really non-dual, just example only :-)
it depends on which Persepctive you are seeing. just let it be.
/\
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Originally posted by sinweiy:
SW: am refering to AEN's quote, "Before the 19th small kalpa, all the sentient beings that are above the 1st Jhana [1] ,.."
Pt 2, 3 and 4> I don't quite understand what you're trying to say..
SW: #2 i also don't know what you mean. you say "Furthermore, if we are indeed in the 9th small kalpa of the Existence era, we have wait for a very unimaginably long time before the Destruction era comes and for it to end."
i tot the longer time it is the better for all to be liberated?
Pt 5> Why is both conventional and ultimate true?
SW: you never heard of conventional and ultimate truth? conventional is said for people to understand. we still need duality to understand. but ultimately, words cannot describe the ultimate truth. like a finger pointing to the moon, the finger pointing is conventional, the moon is the actual/ultimate.
Pt 6> Earth Store Bodhisattva has gone through countless kalpas, surely there are kalpas when hell is emptied, for example: Destruction kalpas in saha world. But that doesn't count as hell being empty right?
SW: it count from the Perspective of saha world. but doesn't count from the Perspective of Dharma world. there... it's non-dual.
My question is on what really counts as hell being empty in Earth Store's vows.
SW: that say "When one realised one's True self/mind/buddhanature, then all sentient beings are Buddhas. But if one looses one's True self/mind/buddhanature, then all Buddhas are sentient beings."
when u say count, it's correct, when you say don't count, it's also correct. because, i non-dual. get what i mean. (not that i really non-dual, just example only :-)
it depends on which Persepctive you are seeing. just let it be
Your explanation is too deep for me. But thanks for taking the time and effort to do so.
I have read about the Buddha providing statistics on how many would be reborn in Western Paradise from our saha world and I somehow felt like searching for clues that gives us a clear answer as to when Earth Store's Bodhisattva vow would come true.
I wanted to find hope. But yet clueless and doubtful as to how things should be interpreted for Earth Store's Bodhisattva's vows.
Maybe the only person who can answer me is the Bodhisattva or the Buddha himself...
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Originally posted by Spnw07:
Your explanation is too deep for me. But thanks for taking the time and effort to do so.
I have read about the Buddha providing statistics on how many would be reborn in Western Paradise from our saha world and I somehow felt like searching for clues that gives us a clear answer as to when Earth Store's Bodhisattva vow would come true.
I wanted to find hope. But yet clueless and doubtful as to how things should be interpreted for Earth Store's Bodhisattva's vows.
Maybe the only person who can answer me is the Bodhisattva or the Buddha himself...
will also have to interpreted all Bodhisattva vow. all's got the same significant. like...
you know there's the Bodhisattva's first universal vow of "Sentient beings is boundless, I vow to liberate them all. "
and Guan Yin vow to answer the cries and pleas of all beings and to liberate all beings from their own karmic woes.
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its all in the bodhisattvas' minds
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Of course not. All sentient beings's Buddha Nature is complete and all will attain Buddhahood eventually.
As I said before, not all sentient beings have Buddha nature. -
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
As I said before, not all sentient beings have Buddha nature.All sentient beings have Buddha Nature.
If you say otherwise then you have no ideas what is Buddha Nature.
Without Buddha Nature, we cannot even be. Hearing, seeing, all are the functions of Buddha Nature.
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It depends on which tradition of buddhism. In the mahayana and vajrayana buddhism, buddha nature is said to exist in ALL sentient beings in samsara. Therefore one will be able to become buddha no matter what someday in future. However buddha nature is not emphasized/not taught in theravada buddhism(correct me if im wrong). One needs cultivation and practice in order to gain Arhatship, therefore saying that buddha nature is not within us but we must find it through cultivation.
I sort of agree with theravada point of view, because i dont think human has done evil just as simply as hatred,greed and ignorance. The reason why we are in samsara is because we do not have a pure nature. If we have buddha nature, wouldnt we all become buddhas now since we have Sakyamuni buddha to enlighten us? People might argue what 'buddha nature' meant was that we all have the potential to become buddha someday, but then i feel that they key to buddha nature is still cultivation and to put buddha's word into practice.The world is full of negative energies. Even if we have buddha nature, it is very unlikely we will find buddha nature by chance. Therefore the simplest thing we can do is cultivate compassion, wisdom, try to cease desire and help others base on our capabilities. If we can do that, that is the key.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
All sentient beings have Buddha Nature.
If you say otherwise then you have no ideas what is Buddha Nature.
Without Buddha Nature, we cannot even be. Hearing, seeing, all are the functions of Buddha Nature.
Buddha nature is beyond sight, hearing and perception of feeling etc. No beings in samsara can see it. Buddha also said that what he taught is just a leaf compared to an entire forest. Real buddha nature is incomprehensible and not known to samsara beings.
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Originally posted by sinweiy:
will also have to interpreted all Bodhisattva vow. all's got the same significant. like...
you know there's the Bodhisattva's first universal vow of "Sentient beings is boundless, I vow to liberate them all. "
and Guan Yin vow to answer the cries and pleas of all beings and to liberate all beings from their own karmic woes.
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Erms, sorry, but what are you trying to say here? I a bit slow.
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The Buddha nature concept, seriously is a mystery to me. But deeply I still believe in it. Why? To put it very shortly, why do some people continue to do evil despite all efforts by people to help me and why do some people continue to do good despite all efforts by people to humiliate and/or torture him?
The only reason I think of is some people's Buddha nature are less tainted by delusions compared to others hence the observed difference.
And why some people less tainted by delusions? I don't know. But I will continue to find out more about it.
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Originally posted by wilsonhao:
It depends on which tradition of buddhism. In the mahayana and vajrayana buddhism, buddha nature is said to exist in ALL sentient beings in samsara. Therefore one will be able to become buddha no matter what someday in future. However buddha nature is not emphasized/not taught in theravada buddhism(correct me if im wrong). One needs cultivation and practice in order to gain Arhatship, therefore saying that buddha nature is not within us but we must find it through cultivation.
I sort of agree with theravada point of view, because i dont think human has done evil just as simply as hatred,greed and ignorance. The reason why we are in samsara is because we do not have a pure nature. If we have buddha nature, wouldnt we all become buddhas now since we have Sakyamuni buddha to enlighten us? People might argue what 'buddha nature' meant was that we all have the potential to become buddha someday, but then i feel that they key to buddha nature is still cultivation and to put buddha's word into practice.The world is full of negative energies. Even if we have buddha nature, it is very unlikely we will find buddha nature by chance. Therefore the simplest thing we can do is cultivate compassion, wisdom, try to cease desire and help others base on our capabilities. If we can do that, that is the key.
Buddha Nature is not just a term pointing out to the potential in all of us to attain Buddhahood, even though this potential is implied and intrinsically linked to it (our originally radiant citta).
Buddha Nature is talking about our True Nature, the ultimate reality. Which is luminous and empty.
In this sense Theravada definitely talks about Buddha Nature too, even though they do not use the same name. They call it the Shining Mind. Our Buddha Mind is already shining, but obscured due to our defilements. That is why we are still in samsara.
The Buddha taught this in the Pali scriptures:
"Luminous, monks, is the mind.1 And it is defiled by incoming defilements." {I,v,9}
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements." {I,v,10}
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person — there is no development of the mind." {I,vi,1}
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — there is development of the mind." {I,vi,2}
Also see:
THE SHINING CITTA AND THE BUDDHA-NATURE
(from “The Selfless Mind ~ Personality, Consciousness and Nirvaa.na in Early Buddhism” by Peter Harvey. Curzon Press. 1995. From the chapter on ‘Bhava.nga and the Brightly Shining Mind’ Pp.174-76)
(10.33) Other than the Theravaada, a number of the pre-Mahaayaana schools made reference to the radiant citta. The Vibhajyavaadins, who were close to or identical with the Theravaadins, held that the fundamental or root-nature (Muula-bhaava) of citta was brightly shining (Skt. Prabhaasvara; Bareau, 1955: 175), while the Mahaasaa.nghikas said the same of the ‘own-nature’ (svabhaava) of citta (Bareau, 1955: 67-8), and the Dharmaguptakas said this of the ‘nature’ (bhaava) of the citta (Bareau, 1955: 194). The Sarvaastivaadin Vaibhaas.sikas, however, disagreed (Bareau, 1955: 147). In the Mahaayaana, the concept became one of great importance. The A.s.tasaahasrikaa Perfection of Wisdom Sutra, a text from around the first centuries BC or AD, identifies it with the compassion-based ‘thought of awakening’ (bodhi-citta), the aspiration to attain Buddhahood, for the sake of liberating all beings. Of this it says, ‘that citta is no citta, since it is by nature brightly shining (taccittam-acittam: prak.rtiscittasya prabhaasvaara)’ (Vaidya, 1960: 3, cf. Conze, 1973: 84). Here, the link with compassion tallies with the ‘early Sutta’ linking of the lovingkindness to the radiant citta (Para.10.22). The unusual nature of this citta is here signalled by it being termed a non-citta citta. The connection to bodhi, awakening or enlightenment, is also found in the ‘early Suttas’, if not quite in the same way. Arahatship is, of course, a kind of bodhi, and the seven ‘factors of bodhi’, which conduce to liberation, are developed by a citta which is without defilements (S. V. 93), I.e. with its radiance uncovered.
(10.34) The uncovered brightly shining citta is thus the ideal springboard from which to attain awakening, such that it can be seen as a kind of enlightenment-potential. Appropriately, one strand of Mahaayaana thought identifies the brightly shining citta with the Tathaagata-garbha: the Buddha-embryo, or Buddha-potential which is the Buddha-nature (Buddha-dhaatu) present in all beings. Indeed, it is awareness of this which prompts the arising of the ‘thought of awakening’. The La.nkaavataara Suutra (p.77) says of the Tathaagata-garbha that it is ‘by nature brightly shining and pure (prak.rti-prabhaasvara-visuddy-), originally pure (-adi-visuddha)’. It is ‘naturally pure (prak.rti-parisuddho) but it appears impure as it is defiled by stains which arrive’ and is ’enveloped in the garments of personality-factors, (sensory) elements and sense-spheres, and soiled with the dirt of attachment, hatred, delusion and imagining (-parikalpa)’ [20]. As discernment is a personality-factor, and is generally equivalent to citta, this implies that the Tathaagata-garbha Is not a normal kind of ‘citta’, just as the bodhi-citta is not.
(10.35) The Sriimaala-devii Simhanaada Suutra sees the Buddha-potential as that which aspires for nirvaa.na (Paul, 1980: ch.13), while the Ratnagotra-vibhaaga sees it as replete with the qualities of Buddha hood (vv.51, 84). It is both ‘since beginningless time naturally present’ and ‘perfected through proper cultivation’ (v.149). It is already present, ‘the immaculate true nature to which nothing need be added and from which nothing need be taken’ (v. 113). Yet it has to be separated from accompanying impurities, just as gold-ore has to be refined so as to bring out and manifest the intrinsic purity of gold (v.47). Its relation to the defilements is much as in Theravaada thought. The Ratnagotra-vibhaaga says that karma and the defilements are based on unmethodical attention, that this is based on ‘the mind’s purity’, yet it also says that this ‘true nature of mind’ is itself without further basis (vv. 56-7): a step beyond the Theravaada view. In fact, in Tathaagata-garbha thought, the Buddha-potential becomes the basis of all existence. The La.nkaavaatara Suutra says that it ‘holds within it the cause for both good and evil, and by it all forms of existence are produced. Like an actor it takes on a variety of forms …’ (p.220). The Ratnagotra-vibhaaga equates it with the subject of the following verse:
The Realm (dhaatu) is without beginning in time,
It is the common basis (aasraya) of all states.
Because it exists, there also exist
All places of rebirth and full attainment of nirvaa.na.
(Holmes & Holmes, 1985: 72-3).
In the La.nkaavataara Suutra, the Buddha-potential is actually seen as eternal and permanent but, while it may seem like a metaphysical Self (aatman), or eternal creator, it is not so, for it is the same as emptiness (p.778), i.e. lack of inherent Self-nature. The La.nkaavataara Suutra (p.221) also equates it with the aalaya-vijn~naana or ‘home-discernment’ of Yogaacaarin thought. This is a similar concept to that of the Theravaadin bhava.nga citta, being part of a system which also includes conception (manas) and the six forms of sense-discernments (See Harvey, 1990: 107-09). As in Theravaada thought, it is conception which is the agent of generating defilements. Unlike bhava.nga, though, the alaaya is seen as projecting out of itself the apparently external objects which are taken by the sense-discernments. The Theravaada view, here, is simply that past karma affects which objects are noticed, and conception and cognition then interpret and misinterpret these objects.
(10.36) It can thus be seen that the Buddha-potential, a key concept of the Mahaayaana, which became particularly central in Zen Buddhism, has links to both the ‘early Suttas’ and to the later Theravaada. While the Mahaayaana makes more explicit use of this type of concept, analogues to it are found in the early texts and the scholastic Theravaada tradition. The radiant citta as an enlightenment potential is also a part of the living Theravaada meditation tradition.
(e&oe)