How do we know whether someone is enlightened?
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This is a common question asked by both beginner Buddhists and non-Buddhists. Many answers have been given but do those who question really understand? I often wonder.
As mentioned by AEN in writing, there is apparently two distinct ways to categorise and describe enlightment in writing. The rest in terms of discerning from behaviour and words of a truly enlightened person are way too deep for me to understand or mention here.
In writing, it can be enlightened in small caps and Enlightened in initial caps.
Let me quote real people that you are consider to be enlightened with both the small caps or initial caps.
Master Chin Kung or the Dalai Lama for example.
Without any psychic powers or divine eye like Buddhas and Arahant, we do not know how many Buddhist practitioners are there in this world, who can be considered enlightened.
Some say many, some say little. If many, how many? If little, how little?
When we say someone is enlightened, can we also safely conclude that this person has at least attained sainthood or Arahanthood?
Why this standard of judging you say? Cos the basic goal/aim of any true Buddhist from his relentless cultivation efforts is to at least gain complete liberation from countless cycles of life and death. If not, you can believe and practise other religions or faiths which guarantees heavenly rebirth after what they consider to be only one lifetime.
We know that all heavens are considered part of the samsaric cycle and Tusita Heaven, a resting place for most Buddhas-to-be, is not exempt from that, from my understanding. Tusita Heaven （兜率天）is also where Maitreya Bodhisattva, next Buddha after Sakayamuni Buddha, resides.
However, it is only in the inner palace of Tusita Heaven that you can see the Bodhisattva and listen to his preaching of the Dharmma. For those who are born in the outer palace, sorry. You get to enjoy all heavenly pleasures but you will not get to listen to the Dharmma or see the Bodhisattva.
Those who gain entry into Tusita Heaven has practised mediation and vipassana diligently to a very high level and yet not all can gain entrance into the inner palace.
They can be considered to have gain enlightment of some level, but are they truly free from samsaric existence?
In my opinion, we need not worry whether we are enlightened or nor need to know whether anyone is enlightened. Cos hardly any of us can really tell or know whether our/their cultivation results will bring them complete samsaric liberation after this present lifetime.
If you want a more easier, faster and more secure method, you would have to practise Amitabha Buddha's name recitation and make constant and strong vows to be reborn in Western Paradise of Ultimate Bliss.
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Originally posted by Spnw07:
This is a common question asked by both beginner Buddhists and non-Buddhists. Many answers have been given but do those who question really understand? I often wonder.
As mentioned by AEN in writing, there is apparently two distinct ways to categorise and describe enlightment in writing. The rest in terms of discerning from behaviour and words of a truly enlightened person are way too deep for me to understand or mention here.
In writing, it can be enlightened in small caps and Enlightened in initial caps.
Let me quote real people that you are consider to be enlightened with both the small caps or initial caps.
Master Chin Kung or the Dalai Lama for example.
Without any psychic powers or divine eye like Buddhas and Arahant, we do not know how many Buddhist practitioners are there in this world, who can be considered enlightened.
Some say many, some say little. If many, how many? If little, how little?
When we say someone is enlightened, can we also safely conclude that this person has at least attained sainthood or Arahanthood?
Why this standard of judging you say? Cos the basic goal/aim of any true Buddhist from his relentless cultivation efforts is to at least gain complete liberation from countless cycles of life and death. If not, you can believe and practise other religions or faiths which guarantees heavenly rebirth after what they consider to be only one lifetime.
We know that all heavens are considered part of the samsaric cycle and Tusita Heaven, a resting place for most Buddhas-to-be, is not exempt from that, from my understanding. Tusita Heaven （兜率天）is also where Maitreya Bodhisattva, next Buddha after Sakayamuni Buddha, resides.
However, it is only in the inner palace of Tusita Heaven that you can see the Bodhisattva and listen to his preaching of the Dharmma. For those who are born in the outer palace, sorry. You get to enjoy all heavenly pleasures but you will not get to listen to the Dharmma or see the Bodhisattva.
Those who gain entry into Tusita Heaven has practised mediation and vipassana diligently to a very high level and yet not all can gain entrance into the inner palace.
They can be considered to have gain enlightment of some level, but are they truly free from samsaric existence?
In my opinion, we need not worry whether we are enlightened or nor need to know whether anyone is enlightened. Cos hardly any of us can really tell or know whether our/their cultivation results will bring them complete samsaric liberation after this present lifetime.
If you want a more easier, faster and more secure method, you would have to practise Amitabha Buddha's name recitation and make constant and strong vows to be reborn in Western Paradise of Ultimate Bliss.
As long as you reach the 1st level Bhumi of Bodhisattvahood, or the 1st level of Arhat path (Sotapanna), you're on your way and will surely be there in due time. They are already considered 'enlightened' but not 'Enlightenment' with the cap 'E' which is usually reserved for Buddhahood.
For sotapanna, even if you never become Arhat in this life, you will be fully Arhat in a max of no more than 7 lifetimes. Once returners, non returners is either this or next life, etc.
There are ways to guage a person's level of realisation, like what stage is he at... and at each stage the insight differs subtly. I will not discuss this in depth... but the thing is you can know which 'level' you are at... I know a few high bhumi bodhisattvas and arhats.. as well as anagamis, and so on. Well believe or not up to you... keke
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Chop off their a part of their body then cremate it...
Have relics then is enlightened
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Originally posted by maggot:
Chop off their a part of their body then cremate it...
Have relics then is enlightened
I'm afraid before you see the relics... you might already fall into avici hell.
There are five grave offences that lead to rebirth in avici hell for a very long time:
killing one's father, one's mother, or an Arhat, causing dissension within the Sangha, causing the Buddhas to bleed.
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If whatever supposed to happen happens, it's their karma and I will not go to anywhere at all
There is no justice system in religion if have the world is already a pureland
Protectors of buddhism to uphold that justice?
Since when buddhism is so weak till it need protectors?
Or protectors is there to uphold something that is not real at all and cannot stand the test of time
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Originally posted by maggot:
If whatever supposed to happen happens, it's their karma and I will not go to anywhere at all
This is a wrong view of Fatalism. Buddhism teaches the Fatalism is a false view. Please do not confuse Karma with Fatalism.
If you kill someone, you are definitely going to get the karma of killing (i.e. rebirth in hell). Whether it is the other party's karma to get killed is another matter, but the sure thing is you are going to fall to hell as a result of killing.
Protectors of buddhism to uphold that justice?
Since when buddhism is so weak till it need protectors?
Or protectors is there to uphold something that is not real at all and cannot stand the test of time
You question doesn't make sense.
You mean law no need law enforcers? Law is too strong and can stand on its own? lol
You mean President or Prime Ministers no need guards?
The job of Buddhism is simply to alleviate sufferings of sentient beings, but that doesn't mean evil forces will not try to carry out distruptions.
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Too many people called themselves to be enlightened
Then people learn from these people instead of buddha teachings
Real buddhism teachings comes with powers so
sangha group can protect themselves unless the teachings got doctored by something else and hence there's a need for protectors.....
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Originally posted by maggot:
Too many people called themselves to be enlightened
Then people learn from these people instead of buddha teachings
Real buddhism teachings comes with powers so
sangha group can protect themselves unless the teachings got doctored by something else and hence there's a need for protectors.....
This is not necessarily so. During Buddha's times, Buddha had many nagas and devas and brahmas as his dharma and personal protector. Even though Buddha and his Arhat disciples would have been powerful enough to protect themselves, they have better things to do and time to spend like helping sentient beings. The job of protection and guarding the community and teachings are then left to these dharma protectors.
Also, arhats like Mogallana died a terrible death by being hurled with rocks. Please note, Mogallana is Buddha's foremost disciple in Supernatural Powers.
Buddha himself has also bled and been hurt by Devadatta.
This is because the past karma of Mogallana and Buddha, and supernatural powers cannot supercede karmic forces.
And last time my Taiwanese teacher was in meditative state, a ghost wearing ancient warrior suit belong to Song dynasty (if I'm not wrong) came with a sword, and wanted to chop off his head. My Taiwanese teacher said at that time the spirit would definitely be no match at all with his own supernatural power, and that to defeat the spirit is just a tiny task. But he also know that it is the ripening of his karma for killing ppl in his past life, about 10 lifetimes ago as a warrior.
So he let him chop off his head, and the spirit happily walked away, laughing and dragging the sword off. Because certain aspect of his consciousness (I think relating to the 7th consciousness) is dissolved, he did not die in the process. When he went out of meditative state however, there was a scar on his neck, and is a sign of his karmic ripening, so he accepted it.
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/history/db_02s.htm
The Limitations of Supernatural Powers
Mogallana always thought that nothing was impossible with his supernatural power. However, little did he realise that supernatural power could not help one escape the law of cause and effect. Neither did he know that it could not defeat karma and free one from the cycle of life and death.
Once, Buddha's homeland Kapilavastu was invaded by King Vidudabha of Kosala. Being a patriot, Buddha had succeeded in blocking the enemy for three times. But King Vidudabha did not want to give up. Knowing that this was due to the karma of Sakya clan, the Buddha had no choice but to let it be.
Mogallana was deeply agitated when he heard that Kapilavastu was surrounded by enemy troops. Though Buddha told him this was the karma of Sakya clan, he insisted on saving the clan people with his miraculous power.
He flew into Kapilavastu which was already encircled by enemy troops ring upon ring. He selected the five hundred outstanding Sakyas and put them in a bowl. When he had safely flown out of the country, he opened the bowl and found that the five hundred people in it had already turned into blood!
Mogallana then realised one could not violate the law of cause and effect taught by the Buddha. Even supernatural power could not outmatch karmic effect.
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Originally posted by maggot:
Too many people called themselves to be enlightened
Then people learn from these people instead of buddha teachings
Even enlightened people are simply teaching Buddha's teachings, even if it is phrased in another way.
If his teachings are not in accord with Buddha's teachings, or 3 dharma seals, then something is wrong.
If it is in accord to 3 dharma seals, then it is in accord with Buddha's teachings.
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Originally posted by maggot:There is no justice system in religion if have the world is already a pureland
Misread previously.
In Buddhism, there is no justice system, there is simply the law of karma which is simply causes, conditions, and effect due to our volition/action.
Unwholesome karma leads to unwholesome effect, wholesome karma leads to wholesome effect. Both wholesome and unwholesome leads to both wholesome and unwholesome, and neither wholesome nor unwholesome (pure karma) leads to liberation.
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So you are saying that I can invent new buddhism teachings as long it is accord to 3 dharman seals
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Originally posted by maggot:
So you are saying that I can invent new buddhism teachings as long it is accord to 3 dharman seals
You can't. Therefore if you are teaching dharma in accord with 3 dharma seals and the dharma, you are simply rephrasing Buddha's words one way or another.
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Back to topic
Pluck off their tooth and see if their tooth is a relic
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
As long as you reach the 1st level Bhumi of Bodhisattvahood, or the 1st level of Arhat path (Sotapanna), you're on your way and will surely be there in due time. They are already considered 'enlightened' but not 'Enlightenment' with the cap 'E' which is usually reserved for Buddhahood.
For sotapanna, even if you never become Arhat in this life, you will be fully Arhat in a max of no more than 7 lifetimes. Once returners, non returners is either this or next life, etc.
There are ways to guage a person's level of realisation, like what stage is he at... and at each stage the insight differs subtly. I will not discuss this in depth... but the thing is you can know which 'level' you are at... I know a few high bhumi bodhisattvas and arhats.. as well as anagamis, and so on. Well believe or not up to you... keke
I think we have some misunderstanding. I believe that you may personally know a few bodhisattvas and arhats.
However, what I have been saying is this, it is impossible for all practitioners of Buddhism, diligent or not, to achieve liberation from samsaric existence in one's present lifetime using just the contemplative approaches like vipassana, meditation on your own or even with a teacher.
Cos if that's the truth, I don't think there is a need for Bodhisattvas and arhats to be among us, since we are perfectly capable of following the Buddha's teachings to the letter and maintain what we have achieved.
Seriously what Bodhisattvas and Arahants know cannot really be taught. We can follow, we can strive, but what they have achieved cannot be achieved by all in a single lifetime unless an individual's good karma and spiritual wisdom happens to ripen in this lifetime, then only can Bodhisattvas and Arhats help.
And the 18 uncommon abilities of a Buddha is the ability to teach dharmma according to an individual's level of understanding and acceptance. Are these Bodhisattvas and Arhats that you speak of able to teach according to a person's karmic affinity with certain dharma doors and his past and present karma merits like what the Buddha did for all who come to him? I don't know. But I hope it's true though. I hope they will reach out to help people who are below average in spiritual cultivation and understanding like me.
I don't know whether you have heard of this story:
There was once a man who had achieved 1st or 2nd stage sainthood in his previous lifetime. However, since he had not achieved complete liberation like an Arahat, he was reborn as a human after his heavenly lifespan has added and he got married.
This man had one unwholesome habit: He has high sexual desire. The desire is high enough for his wife to complain.
One day, his wife met with a wise man and shared about her problems. The wise man taught her to say these words to her husband: You are already a saint, you still want to carry on with this?
True enough, after saying this, her husband ceased all sexual activities with her and that strangely, caused her to become suspicious and she asked her husband for clarification.
Her husband calmly replied: Although a vase may be very beautiful, but its insides are not. I understand this now as I have recollected my past life's achievement and I no longer have any attachment to sexual desires.
Since you know the ways to gauge a person's realisation, why not share with us?
I sincerely want to know and I think it would help the public or any Buddhist to discern whether their teacher or fellow Buddhists is indeed enlightened and not just a virtuous person like Confucius or Mahatma Gandhi.
From what I know from scriptures, only the Buddha would factually state that he is indeed a fully-awakened being and hence worthy of the title 'Buddha'. Most real Bodhisattvas or Arhats in manifestations will not say such things unless in the presence of a Buddha or with the permission of the Buddha, as observed in scriptures.
AEN: sorry for having accidentally edited your post. I have restored your original posting.
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to be enlightened... it all depends on if you are the fated one, the chosen one. to have that, first your 'sky window' (translate that into mandarin) must be opened!
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Originally posted by w.eikaas:
to be enlightened... it all depends on if you are the fated one, the chosen one. to have that, first your 'sky window' (translate that into mandarin) must be opened!
Where did you heard this from? This is certainly not a Buddhist teaching. What is sky window?
Anyway, enlightenment does not depend on fate at all. First of all we do not believe in fate or predestination, and we do not believe that there is any higher power that can control someone's karma. We also do not believe in a creator God.
And anyone who practices surely can gain enlightenment. Every single person's Buddha Nature is already complete, waiting to be realised. Everyone will eventually attain Buddhahood, being only a matter of time.
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I think we have some misunderstanding. I believe that you may personally know a few bodhisattvas and arhats.
However, what I have been saying is this, it is impossible for all practitioners of Buddhism, diligent or not, to achieve liberation from samsaric existence in one's present lifetime using just the contemplative approaches like vipassana, meditation on your own or even with a teacher.
Why not? Of course, if you are already an old person, or going to die soon, then enlightenment within this lifetime is not realistic.
Otherwise there is no reason we cannot attain enlightenment if we put effort into it.
Cos if that's the truth, I don't think there is a need for Bodhisattvas and arhats to be among us, since we are perfectly capable of following the Buddha's teachings to the letter and maintain what we have achieved.
I can't see your logic. Why is the ability to gain enlightenment got to do with whether Bodhisattvas and Arhats among us?
I would say -- almost everyone definitely have the ability to pass the O Levels if they study hard. But does that mean they don't need teachers or no need to go to school? Even if they do self study they usually have tutors or go to private school. You mean just because people have the intellectual ability to pass O levels means they can do away with teachers?
Similarly, just because all of us can gain enlightenment doesn't mean we do not need teachers to point it out to us. Please remember that only Buddhas and Pratyekabuddhas do not need teachers to point out the dharma to them. All other practitioners attained enlightenment through learning and guidance from other enlightened teachers.
All Arhats and Bodhisattvas that are alive today all learnt and attained enlightenment under the guidance of teachers, as well as all Arhats living in Buddha's times. The word 'sravaka' means 'hearer.
Seriously what Bodhisattvas and Arahants know cannot really be taught. We can follow, we can strive, but what they have achieved cannot be achieved by all in a single lifetime unless an individual's good karma and spiritual wisdom happens to ripen in this lifetime, then only can Bodhisattvas and Arhats help.
All enlightened beings start from being ignorant like us, they learnt from other enlightened beings who guided them, and through their practice they attained fruition/enlightenment.
You think enlightened beings all started as superman? They are all ordinary people like us. In fact, they continue to look ordinary after enlightenment. As the saying goes, Before enlightenment, chop wood carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood carry water.
I don't see why most or all of us here cannot gain enlightenment.
And the 18 uncommon abilities of a Buddha is the ability to teach dharmma according to an individual's level of understanding and acceptance. Are these Bodhisattvas and Arhats that you speak of able to teach according to a person's karmic affinity with certain dharma doors and his past and present karma merits like what the Buddha did for all who come to him? I don't know. But I hope it's true though. I hope they will reach out to help people who are below average in spiritual cultivation and understanding like me.
Don't look down on yourself, practice accordingly and then you will see progress. An enlightened person will gain wisdom and give appropriate medicine, and be able to guide a person to enlightenment. And yes, there are people nowadays who can trace your past karma and past life and things like that. My taiwanese teacher would usually enter samadhi to observe a person's conditions before seeing how he can help. Sometimes that includes tracing back to many many lifetimes ago. The thing is a highly enlightened person should be able to observe conditions and give appropriate advise.
Anyway our moderator Thusness also always do that, and always tell me to do that. He will sense what is the condition and medicine for people at different level of practice or calibre. As he said to me a few months back, "normally i meditate to intuitively feel the condition for a person and see how to help if i can, so that i can correctly path him towards the right direction. for u i use a different method, for longchen, for jonls, even for mike."
Which is also why for example, self-liberation should not be discussed to everyone. Yet it is appropriate to discuss it with longchen. For me, he also told me what I needed to practice right now in order to progress. Of course I have little wisdom so sometimes my posts may not be very relevant and I can't always 'sense the conditions'.
Also.. may not be directly related, as you may have known Longchen also wrote about some of his past lives before (he told me more when I met him), and he said last year regarding tracing karma and past lives: Hello People,
I think karma really exist.
Being able to trace the events into past lives, allows me to see the causes of my current conditions and difficulties. For example, I can see who my wife is in a previous life and why she is associated with me in this life. I also know certain people that i encounters in this life and how are they linked to me in previous life.
Sometimes, I really regret being so foolish in the past.
They
are really giving me alot of current life obstacles.
I think the precepts laid down by Buddha is a super foresight of his. The precepts can prevent one from getting negative consequences. However I think, at times, karma can also be acrued by being swept by life events and tides. Karma is indeed an extremely complex dynamics.
Just a sharing.
Buddha's wisdom is profound.I don't know whether you have heard of this story:
There was once a man who had achieved 1st or 2nd stage sainthood in his previous lifetime. However, since he had not achieved complete liberation like an Arahat, he was reborn as a human after his heavenly lifespan has added and he got married.
This man had one unwholesome habit: He has high sexual desire. The desire is high enough for his wife to complain.
One day, his wife met with a wise man and shared about her problems. The wise man taught her to say these words to her husband: You are already a saint, you still want to carry on with this?
True enough, after saying this, her husband ceased all sexual activities with her and that strangely, caused her to become suspicious and she asked her husband for clarification.
Her husband calmly replied: Although a vase may be very beautiful, but its insides are not. I understand this now as I have recollected my past life's achievement and I no longer have any attachment to sexual desires.
Since you know the ways to gauge a person's realisation, why not share with us?
I sincerely want to know and I think it would help the public or any Buddhist to discern whether their teacher or fellow Buddhists is indeed enlightened and not just a virtuous person like Confucius or Mahatma Gandhi.
From what I know from scriptures, only the Buddha would factually state that he is indeed a fully-awakened being and hence worthy of the title 'Buddha'. Most real Bodhisattvas or Arhats in manifestations will not say such things unless in the presence of a Buddha or with the permission of the Buddha, as observed in scriptures.
You can usually see the level of wisdom and insights from his speech, writings or teachings... like whether the crucial insights are there or have not been understood, thus revealing his spiritual progression. Again it is very difficult for me to tell you and I think it is not very good to judge people... I myself can only make a guess, and would confirm it with others who are more experienced like Thusness.
There are subtle differences in terms of insights in lets say, the 4 paths leading to Arhatship, and here is an article by Dharma Dan on this: http://web.mac.com/danielmingram/iWeb/Daniel%20Ingram%27s%20Dharma%20Blog/The%20Blook/51EE7943-0A69-488A-B5B0-3C8F2EF7C5E8.html
But roughly speaking, if his teachings are always in line with the dharma seals, and he is in no way confused about his experience and insights, and is able to answer you in any way with regards to dharma and reality, there is a high chance this guy is enlightened somewhat.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Where did you heard this from? This is certainly not a Buddhist teaching. What is sky window?
Anyway, enlightenment does not depend on fate at all. First of all we do not believe in fate or predestination, and we do not believe that there is any higher power that can control someone's karma. We also do not believe in a creator God.
And anyone who practices surely can gain enlightenment. Every single person's Buddha Nature is already complete, waiting to be realised. Everyone will eventually attain Buddhahood, being only a matter of time.
Yeh, doesn't sound like Buddhist teaching at all. I agree with AEN's following explanation.
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I still consider myself new to this forum and all of you. I know nothing about Longchen, until your post above.
If at anytime, there's anything you feel uncomfortable to share with me in a public forum, please pm or email me.
I learn best by reading quietly on my own and 'debating' with others.
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teacher chen said before if you dont ask him questions he sees you all as bodhisattvas!
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Originally posted by Nestigator:
teacher chen said before if you dont ask him questions he sees you all as bodhisattvas!
What does that mean?
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Originally posted by maggot:
Chop off their a part of their body then cremate it...
Have relics then is enlightened
it's a misconception. fyi, i was taught that not all enlightened people have relics/shariras. those reborn in heavenly realms, can also produce shariras when cremated. i think it may be to due to people doing great amount of good deeds etc.so one cannot use relics as a full proof that one is enlightened or not.
/\
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Originally posted by Nestigator:
teacher chen said before if you dont ask him questions he sees you all as bodhisattvas!
It just means if confusion and ignorance did not arise, then you're there. But most of us are not.
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Originally posted by Spnw07:
What does that mean?
Saying something my teacher said...
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Where did you heard this from? This is certainly not a Buddhist teaching. What is sky window?
Anyway, enlightenment does not depend on fate at all. First of all we do not believe in fate or predestination, and we do not believe that there is any higher power that can control someone's karma. We also do not believe in a creator God.
And anyone who practices surely can gain enlightenment. Every single person's Buddha Nature is already complete, waiting to be realised. Everyone will eventually attain Buddhahood, being only a matter of time.
Agree.."ren wei" (human acts) are something that plays a major role