How do we know whether someone is enlightened?
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Does it matter...? :lol:
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Originally posted by sinweiy:
it's a misconception. fyi, i was taught that not all enlightened people have relics/shariras. those reborn in heavenly realms, can also produce shariras when cremated. i think it may be to due to people doing great amount of good deeds etc.so one cannot use relics as a full proof that one is enlightened or not.
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After the fire, the truth shall be revealed...If no relics were seen...sorry I will take that practioner as a conman...
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I think it might be possible that sariras may not be an indication of enlightenment, as there could be 'false sariras' --
After one of the retreats in Europe, Zen Master Seung Sahn told two stories that further illuminate the dangers of attaching to samadhi:
"A long time ago in China, during the time of Zen Master Lin Chi, there was a monk who was very famous for his samadhi practicing. 'Ibis monk never wore any clothes and was known as the 'naked monk.' He had mastered many kinds of samadhi, had lots of energy, and didn't need to wear clothes even in winter.
"One day Lin Chi decided to test this monk. He called a student of his, gave him a set of beautiful clothes, and asked him to present them to the monk. The student went to the monk and said, 'Ah, you are wonderful. Your practicing is very strong. So my teacher wants to give you these beautiful clothes as a present.' The monk kicked away the clothes and said, 'I don't need these clothes. I have original clothes, from my parents! Your clothes can only be kept a short time, then they will wear out. But my original clothes are never broken. Also, if they become dirty, I just take a shower and they are clean again. I don't need your clothes!'
"The student went to Lin Chi and told him what happened. Lin Chi said, 'You must go to this monk once more and ask him a certain question.' So the student went to the monk and said, 'Great monk! I have one question for you. You said you got your original clothes from your parents.' 'Of course!' said the monk. 'Then I ask you, before you got these original clothes from your parents, what kind of clothes did you have?' Upon hearing this, the naked monk went deep into samadhi, then into nirvana (he died).
"Everyone was very surprised and sad. But when the monk's body was cremated, many sarira appeared, so everyone thought, 'Ah, this was a great monk.' Sitting on the high rostrum, Lin Chi hit the stand with his Zen stick and said, 'Form is emptiness, emptiness is form.' He hit it again, 'No form, no emptiness.' He hit it a third time, 'Form is form, emptiness is emptiness. Which one is correct?' Nobody understood. Then the Zen Master shouted 'KATZ!' and said, 'The sky is blue, the tree is green.' If you cannot answer in one word the question about your original clothes, then, although you can get samadhi and nirvana, you cannot get freedom from life and death.
"Then the Zen Master stared at the sarira -- poof! -- they turned to water. This is magic! They all turned to water and disappeared. Everyone was surprised. The meaning of this is: if you do samadhi practice deeply, then when you die many sarira will appear. But, these sarira will not last long because they represent ,one mind,' not 'clear mind' which is our original nature. Our original nature has no life, no death, no coming or going. When the true dharma appears, which means form is form, emptiness is emptiness or sky is blue, tree is green- that energy -BOOM! - will appear, all the sarira will turn to water and disappear. Our teaching is substance, truth, and correct life. Our Zen practicing means attain your true self, find the correct way, truth, and life. Any style of practice is OK -- even using a mantra. But, don't be attached to samadhi -- you must 'pass' samadhi. Zen means 'everyday mind,' not special states of mind. Moment to moment keeping a clear mind is what's important.
"Here is another example. Once one of my students decided to practice with an Indian guru. This guru taught samadhi practice. So my student got a mantra, tried it all the time when he wasn't working, and went deeply into samadhi. All the time he was having a very good feeling. Then one day while doing this mantra, he was crossing the street. The next thing he knew, a car screeched to a halt, almost hitting him, and loudly sounded its horn. The driver shouted at him, 'Keep clear mind!' Then my student was very afraid. The next day he came to me and said, 'Dae Soen Sa Nim, I have a problem. Last night I almost died. I was practicing samadhi, didn't pay attention and was almost hit by a car. Please teach me my mistake.'
"So I explained to him, samadhi practicing takes away your consciousness. But Zen means moment to moment keeping clear mind. What are you doing now? When you are doing something, just do it. Then this kind of accident cannot happen. So don't make samadhi. Don't make anything! Just do it, O.K.?"
Mu Sang Sunim is director of Dharma Zen Center in Los Angeles.
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Though of course, lots of great masters themselves do have shariras, and is not a rare phenomenon.
For example one of the more recent masters, Ven Hsuan Hua --
"About 4,000 to 10,000 of Master Hua's sharira seeds were found after his ashes were scattered, among them included teeth sharira. The many sharira that were found consisted of many colors of white, light yellow, green, blue, sky blue, light blue, black, pink, silver, and other colors. Some of the sharira which were formed on the bones even gleamed like green jade.
One of Master Hua's disciples, moved by the sight of the Master's teeth sharira said, "In his life, the Venerable Master lectured on the Sutras and spoke Dharma in several tens of thousands of assemblies. No wonder his cremation yielded teeth relics!"
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This reminds me of someone who started an ostensibly offensive sounding thread, but with the intention of showing that we do not practice the teachings of buddhism. Most of us got so carried away by our initial angry reaction that we fail to see that we are indeed, not practicing the teachings of Buddhism.
Hence, is it possible that we do not recognise an enlightened being even as we look him/ her in the eye?
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Originally posted by Beyond Religion:
This reminds me of someone who started an ostensibly offensive sounding thread, but with the intention of showing that we do not practice the teachings of buddhism. Most of us got so carried away by our initial angry reaction that we fail to see that we are indeed, not practicing the teachings of Buddhism.
Hence, is it possible that we do not recognise an enlightened being even as we look him/ her in the eye?
Is there such a thread? If possible, pm me. Would like to learn from the experiences of others.
It may indeed be possible that we do not recognise an enlightened being even when he/she or maybe 'it' is just beside us. But there is another more dangerous aspect we have to take note of: some may choose to take refuge in a person who claims to be or appears very much to be enlightened when he/she is really not in mind and soul.
There is no imminent danger in not being able to recognise an unenlightened being, but there is definitely grave danger in not recognising those who pretend to be.
As such, there is still a need for guidelines to be specific on what really is an enlightened person should you get to hear or meet up with one.
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Originally posted by Spnw07:
Is there such a thread? If possible, pm me. Would like to learn from the experiences of others.
It may indeed be possible that we do not recognise an enlightened being even when he/she or maybe 'it' is just beside us. But there is another more dangerous aspect we have to take note of: some may choose to take refuge in a person who claims to be or appears very much to be enlightened when he/she is really not in mind and soul.
There is no imminent danger in not being able to recognise an unenlightened being, but there is definitely grave danger in not recognising those who pretend to be.
As such, there is still a need for guidelines to be specific on what really is an enlightened person should you get to hear or meet up with one.
You can usually make a good guess if you are familiar with the maps of enlightenment, however there are not many clear maps out there and the effective ones is the ones that base their maps on the sort of insights/realisations that occur at each level, such as the one by Dharma Dan I shown you earlier. Because I am sort of familiar with the maps, sometimes I can make a good guess what sort of realisations/enlightenment the person has.
Otherwise, you may have to check with someone who is familiar with the maps, or someone who is enlightened himself and familiar with the maps.
That is the only way I know that you can really tell whether he is enlightened -- that is strictly by his wisdom and insights and yogic state (for example in Bodhisattva bhumi models those who are enlightened reaches the yogic state of Simplicity, then One Taste, then Non-meditation). Hence you cannot really tell by him 'appearing to be enlightened', because appearance is a poor indication.
Unlike what many people might think, you cannot tell if he is enlightened by his behaviors alone, such as if he is calm or not. Or compassionate or selfless. Because many unenlightened people are compassionate, selfless, calm, even wise. Many of these features are also related to practices such as metta and samatha, but not necessarily insight.
Of course, usually if he is a lineaged master/teacher, he would have to be enlightened to certain degrees. Because lineage isn't passed down easily unless that practitioner is already highly enlightened.
If a person is very very clear about Insight and Enlightenment and his true nature and ultimate reality and the dharma thoroughly (not just by knowledge and memory but is able to tell you by his own words and experience), and be able to answer you any way you ask him about them, there is high chance he is enlightened.
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Originally posted by maggot:
After the fire, the truth shall be revealed...If no relics were seen...sorry I will take that practioner as a conman...
then u also got to be careful, as it can be the other way around, like AEN mentioned, conman using false relics to let u believe. it works both ways. hence i prefer to say it depends....
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Ok...but nowadays those conmen will try very hard to get money
The rituals and light up some lamps etc etc and put a price on those stuffs and emphasis that by doing these will get merits whatsoever are conning people
Spending money can get merits then buddha must have wasted his time preaching
By the way relics are for sale at S$30 can get locally and they are real...disappointed at the cheap sale of relics
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
If a person is very very clear about Insight and Enlightenment and his true nature and ultimate reality and the dharma thoroughly (not just by knowledge and memory but is able to tell you by his own words and experience), and be able to answer you any way you ask him about them, there is high chance he is enlightened.
I feel the above paragraph best summarises how an enlightened person would behave or answer when asking him/her questions about true nature and ultimate reality.
But it implies that your knowledge must be near him/her, at least for the theoretical part, or else he/she can be talking about anything that sounds very reasonable and profound, but it may be not the Truth as expounded by the Buddha.
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Originally posted by maggot:
Ok...but nowadays those conmen will try very hard to get money
The rituals and light up some lamps etc etc and put a price on those stuffs and emphasis that by doing these will get merits whatsoever are conning people
Spending money can get merits then buddha must have wasted his time preaching
By the way relics are for sale at S$30 can get locally and they are real...disappointed at the cheap sale of relics
Agree with one point here though: That if spending money will allow the giver to accumulate the proper and sufficient merits for liberation, then Buddha would surely have wasted his time explaining the Truth about reality and Buddha nature to us.
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Originally posted by maggot:
Ok...but nowadays those conmen will try very hard to get money
The rituals and light up some lamps etc etc and put a price on those stuffs and emphasis that by doing these will get merits whatsoever are conning people
Spending money can get merits then buddha must have wasted his time preaching
By the way relics are for sale at S$30 can get locally and they are real...disappointed at the cheap sale of relics
true, that's why I only donate money to those temples that I know which is orthodox and established. Pls note that sometimes orthodox temples/monastry also put up some stuffs in charity sale or stuffs like lamps, flower for people to buy. This is for them to package various category of donation amount for the convenient of the donor.
A temple especially those big one that can accomodate thousands of people in one single event need a lot of money to run the operation thus not surprisingly need to raise fund periodically. Unless they learn from other religion to ask the followers to donate 5% of their monthly salary.
Offering money, flower and so on can indeed give us merit. But if we think about the merit, then there will only be good karma, instead of merit. Sometimes I really hope that they can don't mention about things like "light this lamp" to get what merit, coz it really make people attached to it. But the visitors like it, what to do. -
Originally posted by maggot:
Ok...but nowadays those conmen will try very hard to get money
The rituals and light up some lamps etc etc and put a price on those stuffs and emphasis that by doing these will get merits whatsoever are conning people
Spending money can get merits then buddha must have wasted his time preaching
By the way relics are for sale at S$30 can get locally and they are real...disappointed at the cheap sale of relics
true, that's why I only donate money to those temples that I know which is orthodox and established. Pls note that sometimes orthodox temples/monastry also put up some stuffs in charity sale or stuffs like lamps, flower for people to buy. This is for them to package various category of donation amount for the convenient of the donor.
A temple especially those big one that can accomodate thousands of people in one single event need a lot of money to run the operation thus not surprisingly need to raise fund periodically. Unless they learn from other religion to ask the followers to donate 5% of their monthly salary.
Offering money, flower and so on can indeed give us merit. But if we think about the merit, then there will only be good karma, instead of merit. Sometimes I really hope that they can don't mention about things like "light this lamp" to get what merit, coz it really make people attached to it. But the visitors like it, what to do. -
moreover, there are relic/sharira that no need cremation.
there are enlightened praxis from tibetan, i heard, that when they parinirvana, they just become a beam of light and just disappear, leaving sometime maybe just a strand of hair as "relic".
there is also the "body relic" like that of Master Hui Neng.
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Originally posted by justdoit77:
Offering money, flower and so on can indeed give us merit. But if we think about the merit, then there will only be good karma, instead of merit. Sometimes I really hope that they can don't mention about things like "light this lamp" to get what merit, coz it really make people attached to it. But the visitors like it, what to do.
Why we need to do good deeds if not for good karma or merits? It's not simply about the vistors liking it, it's about how things are usually done in the secular world.
You pay for something, you get something. You work, you get wages.
You pay $50 to light a lamp, then you tell that fella he/she gets 'nothing'. Next time he/she won't do liao. Won't even go to temple. "What for, what I do amounts to nothing wat" some would think.
If merit is something you 'get' when you realise non-attachment, then seriously lots of things no need to do liao, cos most cannot attain true non-attachment before doing anything mah. What kind of non-attachment benchmark am I talking about? At least first stage of sainthood loh.
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If anyone do something or an action and *expects* to receives something or an action in return that is a deal.....no merit what so ever
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Originally posted by Spnw07:
Why we need to do good deeds if not for good karma or merits? It's not simply about the vistors liking it, it's about how things are usually done in the secular world.
You pay for something, you get something. You work, you get wages.
You pay $50 to light a lamp, then you tell that fella he/she gets 'nothing'. Next time he/she won't do liao. Won't even go to temple. "What for, what I do amounts to nothing wat" some would think.
If merit is something you 'get' when you realise non-attachment, then seriously lots of things no need to do liao, cos most cannot attain true non-attachment before doing anything mah. What kind of non-attachment benchmark am I talking about? At least first stage of sainthood loh.
Some people do good deeds in order to reduce other people suffering. It is up to each individual. If the person feel happy knowing that by contributing some money to the temple will give him good karma, that's fine.
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Originally posted by justdoit77:
Some people do good deeds in order to reduce other people suffering. It is up to each individual. If the person feel happy knowing that by contributing some money to the temple will give him good karma, that's fine.
In my opinion, it's not very healthy to leave such mentality among people unchecked as it is. After all, Buddhism is not commercialism. Buddha is about Cause and Effect and liberation from self-delusions.
So even if we cannot really stop people from thinking or doing things in a certain way, we should continue to speak up more clearly on what kind of intentions and deeds constitutes good karma and what is the purpose of talking about merits if some ofr most of us are doing it for personal gain.
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Originally posted by Spnw07:
In my opinion, it's not very healthy to leave such mentality among people unchecked as it is. After all, Buddhism is not commercialism. Buddha is about Cause and Effect and liberation from self-delusions.
So even if we cannot really stop people from thinking or doing things in a certain way, we should continue to speak up more clearly on what kind of intentions and deeds constitutes good karma and what is the purpose of talking about merits if some ofr most of us are doing it for personal gain.
Let me share with you this real story.
I have a very close relative who is also a buddhist but he doesn't practice very diligently. Sometimes, when I tell him about any dharma talk, do volunteer work or to donate money to the victims of war, natural disaster and so on. He will find some excuse of not going.Until a few years ago, I changed my approach and emphasize that doing donation, chanting will give good karma and bring fortune to him. He listen and start donating money and almost every other day do chanting. He told me that after he start doing all these, his luck really improve.
By doing so, perhaps his attachment to money will reduce. Not only he will get good karma, but also help those less fortunate to have enough food, more people to be able to listen to dharma hence more people to liberate. Until such time when he is ready to go further and accept teaching like bodhicitta, emptiness, he will have the good karma to serve as a foundation to receive and practice this teaching rather than everyday complain about buddha doesn't make him rich.Likewise if you have old grandfather grandmother that can't even read properly. Will you ask them to go and read the entire 大�� that consist of few thousands scriptures? ask them do chanting will be enough already.
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Originally posted by justdoit77:
Let me share with you this real story.
I have a very close relative who is also a buddhist but he doesn't practice very diligently. Sometimes, when I tell him about any dharma talk, do volunteer work or to donate money to the victims of war, natural disaster and so on. He will find some excuse of not going.Until a few years ago, I changed my approach and emphasize that doing donation, chanting will give good karma and bring fortune to him. He listen and start donating money and almost every other day do chanting. He told me that after he start doing all these, his luck really improve.
By doing so, perhaps his attachment to money will reduce. Not only he will get good karma, but also help those less fortunate to have enough food, more people to be able to listen to dharma hence more people to liberate. Until such time when he is ready to go further and accept teaching like bodhicitta, emptiness, he will have the good karma to serve as a foundation to receive and practice this teaching rather than everyday complain about buddha doesn't make him rich.Likewise if you have old grandfather grandmother that can't even read properly. Will you ask them to go and read the entire 大�� that consist of few thousands scriptures? ask them do chanting will be enough already.
Personally, even if I encounter any educated elderly or young, I will not ask them to read entire 大��. It will scare them away the same way it would for the uneducated. Though the effect might be more pronounced for the latter.
Other than recommending them to chant, I will also try to let them know how to handle practical aspects of life as a believer.
For your relative, you have to get his trust & respect for you to increase slowly. Otherwise, it would be hard for him to want to understand more about Buddhism through you.
In my opinion, bodhicitta and emptiness is not for every Buddhist. We can introduce them to such concepts, but we should not expect any one of them to understand completely, even though we might have exhausted all efforts to do so.
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Originally posted by Spnw07:
Personally, even if I encounter any educated elderly or young, I will not ask them to read entire 大��. It will scare them away the same way it would for the uneducated. Though the effect might be more pronounced for the latter.
Other than recommending them to chant, I will also try to let them know how to handle practical aspects of life as a believer.
For your relative, you have to get his trust & respect for you to increase slowly. Otherwise, it would be hard for him to want to understand more about Buddhism through you.
In my opinion, bodhicitta and emptiness is not for every Buddhist. We can introduce them to such concepts, but we should not expect any one of them to understand completely, even though we might have exhausted all efforts to do so.
I agree that not everyone is able to practice bodhisattva path and emptiness. But for one who vow to born in amitabha pureland, he must have bodhicitta. Even if one don't have bodhicitta, if he manage to convince or help sentient being to develop bodhicitta, this will create a huge merit for himself.
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Originally posted by justdoit77:
I agree that not everyone is able to practice bodhisattva path and emptiness. But for one who vow to born in amitabha pureland, he must have bodhicitta. Even if one don't have bodhicitta, if he manage to convince or help sentient being to develop bodhicitta, this will create a huge merit for himself.
Actually, those without bodhicitta can be reborn in pure land. But they can at most be born in the medium grade (i.e. those who practice hinayana). Those Mahayana bodhisattvas can be reborn in the highest grade.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Actually, those without bodhicitta can be reborn in pure land. But they can at most be born in the medium grade (i.e. those who practice hinayana). Those Mahayana bodhisattvas can be reborn in the highest grade.
Thanks a lot, AEN, for clarifying this matter about whether those without bodhicitta can be reborn in pure land.
I hope this not only serves as knowledge for buddhists, but also as a firm encouragement, affirmation of faith in practice for those who wish to choose the Amitabha Buddha Pureland Dharma Door.
Amituofo! ^_^
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this is a bit controversy whether purelanders need to generate bodhicitta or not. Pureland school is part mahayana school, and mahayana schools are to generate bodhicitta. vow 19 said they do need.
- Vow 19
Provided I become a Buddha, if the beings of ten quarters who have directed their thoughts towards the Bodhi and cultivated their stock of various merits with a fervent craving for re-birth in that country of mine, if at the moment of death, should I not appear with an assembly of retinue before them, then may I not attain the enlightenment.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Amitabha's_forty-eight_vows
moreover Bodhicitta got Relative and Absolute.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhicitta
Those "uneducated" Ah gong ah ma who have deep faith to reborn in Pureland, even though they have no idea of bodhicitta, are able to reborn there when they practice nianfo, is because in essence Deep Faith is in itself a form of Bodhicitta said old master. ���心 一�转念. Bodhicitta is the mind of awakening, instead of the common impression of "compassion" to save all beings. 一�转念 and ���心 go together.
So for hinayana, actually they can't be reborn in PL Unless they 回��大, that mean turn from small path to big path. really aspire to cultivate like bodhisattvas/Buddhas and generate bodhicitta.
it would be wrong to go to purealnd to enjoy and treat it as a escape route. these kind of thinking wouldn't get one to be reborn in PL though said master. but 出离心 is another meaning.
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http://web.mit.edu/stclair/www/aks.html
1. The Meditation Sutra mentions nine kinds of people who attain birth in the Pure Land. First, three grades are distinguished: higher, middle and lower; and each is further divided into three classes: higher, middle and lower. According to Shan-tao's interpretation, the higher grade of people are Mahayana-oriented aspirants of the Pure Land, the middle grade are Hinayana-oriented and the lower grade are evil-doers who are led to aspire to the Pure Land on their death-bed.
I was just reading http://www.fodian.net/English/Contemplation_Sutra.htm
Seems like Highest grade is for Mahayanist, Medium grade is for Hinayanist and moralists. And Lowest grade is for evildoers.
So all must aspire for birth in pure land, but they do not need to aspire for Buddhahood (Bodhicitta) or have Bodhisattva aspirations in order to be reborn in pure land. But if they do not, they cannot be born in the highest grade.
3) the lowest level of the highest grade [24] "Those who attain birth on the lowest level of the highest grade likewise accept the law of karmic causes and effects, do not speak slightingly of the Mahayana and awaken aspiration for the highest Enlightenment. They transfer the merit acquired to the Land of Utmost Bliss, aspiring to be born there.
"When such an aspirant is about to die, Amitayus, together with Avalokiteshvara, Mahasthamaprapta and a host of attendants, come to welcome him, bringing a golden lotus-flower and manifesting five hundred transformed Buddhas. Those transformed Buddhas extend their hands all at once and praise the aspirant, saying, 'Son of the Dharma, since you have awakened pure aspiration for the highest Enlightenment, we have come to welcome you.'
"When he has viewed all this, the aspirant finds himself seated upon a golden lotus-flower, which then closes. Following the World-Honored One, he immediately attains birth on a seven-jewelled pond. After a day and night, the lotus-flower [345b] opens and, within seven days, the aspirant beholds the Buddha. Although he sees the Buddha's body, he is still unable to discern his physical characteristics and marks clearly. But after three weeks he sees them distinctly, and also hears all the sounds and voices proclaiming the wonderful Dharma. Then he can travel in all the ten quarters to make offerings to the Buddhas and hear their profound teachings. After three smaller kalpas he acquires clear understanding of the one hundred dharmas and dwells in the Stage of Joy. Such a person is called one who attains birth on the lowest level of the highest grade. These three together are known as the contemplation of the highest grade of aspirants, and the fourteenth contemplation. To practice in this way is called the correct contemplation, and to practice otherwise is incorrect."4) the highest level of the middle grade [25] The Buddha said to Ananda and Vaidehi, "Those who attain birth on the highest level of the middle grade are the sentient beings who keep the five precepts, observe the eight abstinences, practice in compliance with various precepts, and abstain from committing the five gravest offenses and other transgressions. They transfer the merit acquired to the Western Land of Utmost Bliss, aspiring to be born there.
"When such a person is about to die, Amitayus appears before him, surrounded by a host of monks and radiating a golden light. He then expounds the truth of suffering, emptiness, impermanence and no-self, and praises renunciation of the world as the way to escape from suffering.
"Seeing this, the aspirant greatly rejoices and finds himself seated upon a lotus-flower. He kneels down, joins his palms and worships the Buddha. Before he raises his head, he attains birth in the Land of Utmost Bliss, where his lotus-bud soon opens. When the flower opens, he hears various sounds and voices extolling the Four Noble Truths. He immediately attains Arhatship, acquires the three kinds of transcendent knowledge and the six supernatural powers, and realizes the eight samadhis of emancipation. Such a person is called one who attains birth on the highest level of the middle grade.