How do we know whether someone is enlightened?
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Originally posted by sinweiy:
this is a bit controversy whether purelanders need to generate bodhicitta or not. Pureland school is part mahayana school, and mahayana schools are to generate bodhicitta. vow 19 said they do need.
- Vow 19
Provided I become a Buddha, if the beings of ten quarters who have directed their thoughts towards the Bodhi and cultivated their stock of various merits with a fervent craving for re-birth in that country of mine, if at the moment of death, should I not appear with an assembly of retinue before them, then may I not attain the enlightenment.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Amitabha's_forty-eight_vows
moreover Bodhicitta got Relative and Absolute.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhicitta
Those "uneducated" Ah gong ah ma who have deep faith to reborn in Pureland, even though they have no idea of bodhicitta, are able to reborn there when they practice nianfo, is because in essence Deep Faith is in itself a form of Bodhicitta said old master. ���心 一�转念. Bodhicitta is the mind of awakening, instead of the common impression of "compassion" to save all beings. 一�转念 and ���心 go together.
So for hinayana, actually they can't be reborn in PL Unless they 回��大, that mean turn from small path to big path. really aspire to cultivate like bodhisattvas/Buddhas and generate bodhicitta.
it would be wrong to go to purealnd to enjoy and treat it as a escape route. these kind of thinking wouldn't get one to be reborn in PL though said master. but 出离心 is another meaning.
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It may be wrong to adopt a mindset which treats the Pureland dharma door as an escape route.
However, I wish to point out this: escaping requires effort too, you know. You can't just think, but your legs don't run, can you?
If I were to one day be asked to speak on the Pureland dharma door to the public, I would rather tell them to carry on reciting or practising the dharma door with or without bodhicitta, or using it as an escape route or not.
Why? Cos they will all eventually make it to Amitabha Pureland as a result of willing to recite or practise the dharma door in any way. This can be considered as “结法缘”with Amitabha Buddha.
The basis of my views are from Master Ou Yi and Master Yin Kuang. You will find that it's more compassionate and practical to advise people to carry reciting or practise the dharma door than to tell them not to just because they merely treat it as an escape route.
Let me paint a scenario:
You are chased by many monsters. You come across an intersection point of 3 different paths.
1 path is labelled: Non-self and emptiness
2 path is labelled: Pureland with Bodhicitta and utmost diligence
3 path is labelled: Pureland for escapists and lazy people.
Which one would you choose? And whichever you choose, do you actually know you are taking a risk too in a way, trusting that this path is indeed what it is, a place for you to escape from being devoured?
Another scenario:
You are shipwrecked and left floating in the boundless ocean for many days. It is nightime now.
You can't see a thing. Something hard floats your way and brushes against your body. You are very happy and grabs onto it for support to help you float with less effort against the currents.
The next morning, what do you find you are clinging onto?
Surprise! It's a rather huge piece of sturdy log and but yet has bird shit on it.
You didn't mind, cos you think to yourself: Wow, glad that I'm finally safe. I don't know when a ship will come or when I will be drifted to a nearby island for rest, and i don't know when I will tire myself out due to dehydration and hunger, but I'm glad I don't have to tire out myself now when any sea storm comes.
Whichever way you think, the route you choose for escaping to involves 'trust' and 'mental preparedness'.
If I were the Buddha, I would want to help escapists too. :)
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Originally posted by Spnw07:
If I were the Buddha, I would want to help escapists too. :)
I am not sure what you meant by escapists.
Anyway, this reminds me of a question that why evil peope cannot be born in pureland.
It is not that buddha has no compassion to them, but they have done so much bad thing when they are alive, so it is impossible (terms & conditions applied) for them to reborn in the pureland. We are responsible for our own action, as the word saying 神通�敌业力.But by having bodhicitta, we will clear off a lot of karma, at the same time accumulate a lot of good karma and merit.
If we follow the pure land dharma door, this merit and good karma will be used as cause and conditions for us to reborn in pureland. If we are doing some good deeds for our own benefit only, never do any vow or dedication of merit, then we are only entitled to heaven or a better life in human realm.To add on, what is the difference between pure land and heaven. In case anyone don't know, when one go to heaven, it is only a temporary release from suffering, like a prisoner having a 1 day off to go back home. But if one go to pureland, he is considered liberate from samsara. A permanent release from suffering and a much higher level of enjoyment (enjoyment may not be the right word but this is the closest word I can think of). By the time, when one leave pure land and return to samsara, he is already a buddha or enlightened bodhisattva. :)
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heaven.. pureland...or whereever.. they are not going anywhere. They will go nowhere and dont exist again hahaha...
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Originally posted by distorted:
heaven.. pureland...or whereever.. they are not going anywhere. They will go nowhere and dont exist again hahaha...
.What do you mean?
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
http://web.mit.edu/stclair/www/aks.html
1. The Meditation Sutra mentions nine kinds of people who attain birth in the Pure Land. First, three grades are distinguished: higher, middle and lower; and each is further divided into three classes: higher, middle and lower. According to Shan-tao's interpretation, the higher grade of people are Mahayana-oriented aspirants of the Pure Land, the middle grade are Hinayana-oriented and the lower grade are evil-doers who are led to aspire to the Pure Land on their death-bed.
I was just reading http://www.fodian.net/English/Contemplation_Sutra.htm
Seems like Highest grade is for Mahayanist, Medium grade is for Hinayanist and moralists. And Lowest grade is for evildoers.
So all must aspire for birth in pure land, but they do not need to aspire for Buddhahood (Bodhicitta) or have Bodhisattva aspirations in order to be reborn in pure land. But if they do not, they cannot be born in the highest grade.
no, even going to the lowest grade have a form of bodhicitta. bodhicitta is 至心 in Pureland School.“其有至心愿生彼国”。‘至心’å�³çœŸå¿ƒã€�è�©æ��心，就是觉悟之心。--净空法师
http://bookgb.bfnn.org/books/0311.htm
Both the medium and lower grade people, even for the last minute, have 至心愿生彼国.
moreover there's also the three conditions in Contemplation Sutra.
The Three Conditions are a set of conditions for attaining rebirth in the Pure Land. They were spoken to an Indian noblewoman, Lady Vaidehi, by Shakyamuni Buddha in "The Contemplation Sutra." Lady Vaidehi fell despondent over evil deeds committed by her son and expressed her sincere wish to go to a world apart from all sufferings. After Buddha showed her the multitudes of Buddha-lands, Lady Vaidehi chose the Western Pure Land of Ultimate Bliss as her future home. Buddha praised her choice, and Lady Vaidehi sincerely asked him to teach her how to reach the Pure Land. The Buddha then prescribed Three Conditions as a basis for cultivation, not only for her, but also for all others to follow who might wish to reach the Pure Land. The Contemplation Sutra."
The First Condition that the Buddha describes in "The Contemplatoin Sutra" consists of four practices based on fundamental morals. The Second Condition consists of three practices based on cultivating the Self. The Third Condition consists of four practices based on the practices of the Bodhisattvas. For more details, see the text on this page and the pages that follow, and also the page titled "
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Originally posted by sinweiy:
no, even going to the lowest grade have a form of bodhicitta. bodhicitta is 至心 in Pureland School.“其有至心愿生彼国”。‘至心’å�³çœŸå¿ƒã€�è�©æ��心，就是觉悟之心。--净空法师
http://bookgb.bfnn.org/books/0311.htm
Both the medium and lower grade people, even for the last minute, have 至心愿生彼国.
moreover there's also the three conditions in Contemplation Sutra.
The Three Conditions are a set of conditions for attaining rebirth in the Pure Land. They were spoken to an Indian noblewoman, Lady Vaidehi, by Shakyamuni Buddha in "The Contemplation Sutra." Lady Vaidehi fell despondent over evil deeds committed by her son and expressed her sincere wish to go to a world apart from all sufferings. After Buddha showed her the multitudes of Buddha-lands, Lady Vaidehi chose the Western Pure Land of Ultimate Bliss as her future home. Buddha praised her choice, and Lady Vaidehi sincerely asked him to teach her how to reach the Pure Land. The Buddha then prescribed Three Conditions as a basis for cultivation, not only for her, but also for all others to follow who might wish to reach the Pure Land. The Contemplation Sutra."
The First Condition that the Buddha describes in "The Contemplatoin Sutra" consists of four practices based on fundamental morals. The Second Condition consists of three practices based on cultivating the Self. The Third Condition consists of four practices based on the practices of the Bodhisattvas. For more details, see the text on this page and the pages that follow, and also the page titled "
Yea, so as I was saying earlier they must have the wish to be reborn in pure land. It is a form of 'awakening'. Even to seek arhat liberation is also a form of 'awakening' mah. But that doesn't mean he will aspire for full Buddhahood right? Pure Land have normal practitioners (prior to realising unborn), as well as Arhats (Hinayana), as well as Bodhisattvas and Buddhas (Mahayana).
I heard before that there are Hinayana people going to Pure Land, but will end up self cultivation and attaining Arhatship, but not cultivating as Bodhisattva. Actually, it's the same as the sutra said (i.e. those of medium grade attaining Arhatship). Whether Amitabha will encourage in due time those Arhats to 'hui xiao xiang da', I'm not sure, might be possible.
Nevertheless I think the 3 conditions are very important and they build up those conditions for birth in pure land. But I think not everyone can perfectly fulfill the 3 conditions, and hence there are 9 grades of birth in pure land. Those who fulfill all of them to a very high or perfect level will probably be born in the highest grade.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Yea, so as I was saying earlier they must have the wish to be reborn in pure land. It is a form of 'awakening'. Even to seek arhat liberation is also a form of 'awakening' mah. But that doesn't mean he will aspire for full Buddhahood right? Pure Land have normal practitioners (prior to realising unborn), as well as Arhats (Hinayana), as well as Bodhisattvas and Buddhas (Mahayana).
I heard before that there are Hinayana people going to Pure Land, but will end up self cultivation and attaining Arhatship, but not cultivating as Bodhisattva. Actually, it's the same as the sutra said (i.e. those of medium grade attaining Arhatship). Whether Amitabha will encourage in due time those Arhats to 'hui xiao xiang da', I'm not sure, might be possible.
Nevertheless I think the 3 conditions are very important and they build up those conditions for birth in pure land. But I think not everyone can perfectly fulfill the 3 conditions, and hence there are 9 grades of birth in pure land.
i'm quite sure there's a saying in PL school that Hinayana cannot be reborn in PL(let me look up in Infinity Life Sutra), unless they 回��大, meaning "last minute" believe and vow to be reborn in pure land. no vow and faith, then cannot born there. i'm thinking, not all Hinayana believe in PL, let along vow to reborn there.
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Originally posted by sinweiy:
i'm quite sure there's a saying in PL school that Hinayana cannot be reborn in PL(let me look up in Infinity Life Sutra), unless they 回��大, meaning "last minute" believe and vow to be reborn in pure land. no vow and faith, then cannot born there. i'm thinking, not all Hinayana believe in PL, let along vow to reborn there.
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I see... well perhaps. But I was thinking then why are there people attaining Arhatship in pure land? Maybe those who become Arhat in pure land is because their thinking is too skewed towards personal liberation... last minute vow can't change his path. But of course even Hinayana is also One Buddha Vehicle ultimately so eventually they will turn towards Buddhahood.
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Originally posted by justdoit77:
I am not sure what you meant by escapists.
Anyway, this reminds me of a question that why evil peope cannot be born in pureland.
It is not that buddha has no compassion to them, but they have done so much bad thing when they are alive, so it is impossible (terms & conditions applied) for them to reborn in the pureland. We are responsible for our own action, as the word saying 神通ä¸�敌业力.it's not impossible. there are evil doers who at their last moment of death really deeply truely repent, and are able to go to PL. so i presume the "terms & conditions applied “ is true repenting.
note to people, this is not a good example to follow in the sense, that we can go all out and do bad things and wait for last minute to repent. if your repent is not true, also cannot.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
I see... well perhaps. But I was thinking then why are there people attaining Arhatship in pure land? Maybe those who become Arhat in pure land is because their thinking is too skewed towards personal liberation... last minute vow can't change his path.
it simply mean those are the 回��大 "arhats". they are no longer small arahat, they are maha-arahats as mentioned in Amitabha Sutra.
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Originally posted by sinweiy:
i'm quite sure there's a saying in PL school that Hinayana cannot be reborn in PL(let me look up in Infinity Life Sutra), unless they 回��大, meaning "last minute" believe and vow to be reborn in pure land.
old Master's Commentry of Infinity Life Sutra:-
末å�Žè¿™ä¸€æ®µç»�文，慈舟大师判作‘一心三辈’。这是属于å�¦ä¸€ç±»ä¸�是专修净土，而是修å¦å…¶ä»–大乘法门。一定是大乘法门，å°�乘ä¸�è¡Œã€‚å› ä¸ºè¥¿æ–¹ä¸–ç•Œæ˜¯å¤§ä¹˜åœ†æ•™ï¼Œä¸€å®šè¦�èˆ�弃å°�乘，回å°�å�‘大也能往生。他è¦�å�šæŒ�å°�乘，ä¸�肯回å°�å�‘大，就ä¸�相应。修å¦å¤§ä¹˜ä»»ä½•ç»�论ã€�任何法门，å�ªè¦�将修å¦çš„功德回å�‘æ±‚ç”Ÿå‡€åœŸï¼Œä¸€æ ·ä¹Ÿèƒ½å¾€ç”Ÿã€‚http://bookgb.bfnn.org/books/0311.htm
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Originally posted by sinweiy:
old Master's Commentry of Infinity Life Sutra:-
末å�Žè¿™ä¸€æ®µç»�文，慈舟大师判作‘一心三辈’。这是属于å�¦ä¸€ç±»ä¸�是专修净土，而是修å¦å…¶ä»–大乘法门。一定是大乘法门，å°�乘ä¸�è¡Œã€‚å› ä¸ºè¥¿æ–¹ä¸–ç•Œæ˜¯å¤§ä¹˜åœ†æ•™ï¼Œä¸€å®šè¦�èˆ�弃å°�乘，回å°�å�‘大也能往生。他è¦�å�šæŒ�å°�乘，ä¸�肯回å°�å�‘大，就ä¸�相应。修å¦å¤§ä¹˜ä»»ä½•ç»�论ã€�任何法门，å�ªè¦�将修å¦çš„功德回å�‘æ±‚ç”Ÿå‡€åœŸï¼Œä¸€æ ·ä¹Ÿèƒ½å¾€ç”Ÿã€‚http://bookgb.bfnn.org/books/0311.htm
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I see.. thanks for the clarification :)
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Originally posted by Spnw07:
It may be wrong to adopt a mindset which treats the Pureland dharma door as an escape route.
However, I wish to point out this: escaping requires effort too, you know. You can't just think, but your legs don't run, can you?
If I were to one day be asked to speak on the Pureland dharma door to the public, I would rather tell them to carry on reciting or practising the dharma door with or without bodhicitta, or using it as an escape route or not.
Why? Cos they will all eventually make it to Amitabha Pureland as a result of willing to recite or practise the dharma door in any way. This can be considered as “结法缘”with Amitabha Buddha.
The basis of my views are from Master Ou Yi and Master Yin Kuang. You will find that it's more compassionate and practical to advise people to carry reciting or practise the dharma door than to tell them not to just because they merely treat it as an escape route.
Let me paint a scenario:
You are chased by many monsters. You come across an intersection point of 3 different paths.
1 path is labelled: Non-self and emptiness
2 path is labelled: Pureland with Bodhicitta and utmost diligence
3 path is labelled: Pureland for escapists and lazy people.
Which one would you choose? And whichever you choose, do you actually know you are taking a risk too in a way, trusting that this path is indeed what it is, a place for you to escape from being devoured?
Another scenario:
You are shipwrecked and left floating in the boundless ocean for many days. It is nightime now.
You can't see a thing. Something hard floats your way and brushes against your body. You are very happy and grabs onto it for support to help you float with less effort against the currents.
The next morning, what do you find you are clinging onto?
Surprise! It's a rather huge piece of sturdy log and but yet has bird shit on it.
You didn't mind, cos you think to yourself: Wow, glad that I'm finally safe. I don't know when a ship will come or when I will be drifted to a nearby island for rest, and i don't know when I will tire myself out due to dehydration and hunger, but I'm glad I don't have to tire out myself now when any sea storm comes.
Whichever way you think, the route you choose for escaping to involves 'trust' and 'mental preparedness'.
If I were the Buddha, I would want to help escapists too. :)
yes, that's 出离心 like that of Lady Vaidehi in Comtemplation Sutra. Her husband was killed by her own son. bad family problem. very sadden. so she went to Buddha for help to see if there's a kind of practice to 'escape' from SUFFERING. "Escape" from suffering, affliction; samsara are all a good thing. Lady Vaidehi did practice very well.
出离心 is beginning path that slowly lead to Bodhicitta ��心. 出离心是入于�乘之门�,��心则是入于大乘的门�。
我们修人天ç¦�报，还是è¦�在三界以内æµ�转，达ä¸�到究竟的境界。如果ä¸�能å�‘起出离的志愿，远离烦æ�¼çš„苦以了脱生æ»ï¼Œæ˜¯å¾—ä¸�到涅盘的解脱ä¹�。而å�‘出离心å�ˆä½œé�žæ³•çš„æ�¶è¡Œï¼Œä¸šåŠ›èƒœè¿‡æ„¿åŠ›ï¼Œä¹Ÿæ˜¯ç‰å¦‚没å�‘出离心。
thinking of Escape while still continue one's own unwholesome karma and thinking that by going to PL, one can Enjoy for eternity, is what i mean is not right a thinking to have.
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Qns: Did sakyamuni went to pureland and attain buddhahood or did he just realised and become one while as human? If pureland exist it is no different than being in the state of human realm since buddha did mentioned somwhere human has the best state to achieve it.
Pureland to go, heaven and all, remember these are skillful means of skill apply at that time. Outstanding mean of skill i must say, to think we still are so attach to these imagination even after century and many still cant see through this dust!
"it's not impossible. there are evil doers who at their last moment of death really deeply truely repent, and are able to go to PL. so i presume the "terms & conditions applied “ is true repenting."---sinweiy---you got it right
i'll do my evil and gear for that one last TOTO moment cos i'm hoplessly hopeful hahaha... Now could we just get back to the topic:
How do we know whether someone is enlightened?
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Qns: What do you mean?--AEN
If no attachment is the final goal, why even exist?
ha ha ha. -
Originally posted by distorted:
Qns: Did sakyamuni went to pureland and attain buddhahood or did he just realised and become one while as human?
SW: To attain Buddhahood, is also to attain pureland mind. it's non-dual. Buddha's mind is pure and when the mind is pure, the "land" (be it the impure saha) IS pure. like Beauty lies in the mind of the beholder.
If pureland exist it is no different than being in the state of human realm since buddha did mentioned somwhere human has the best state to achieve it.
SW: Human realm is for attaining Buddhahood, yes. even if we go to pureland, eventually one also have to return to human realm to display the final stage of Buddhahood, to turn the Dharma Wheel.
Pureland to go, heaven and all, remember these are skillful means of skill apply at that time. Outstanding mean of skill i must say, to think we still are so attach to these imagination even after century and many still cant see through this dust!
SW: yet we also cannot don't have this skillful means.
may read theTen Doubts about Pure Land by Tien Tai Patriarch Chih I
http://www.geocities.com/sinweiy/TenDoubtsaboutPureLand.html"it's not impossible. there are evil doers who at their last moment of death really deeply truely repent, and are able to go to PL. so i presume the "terms & conditions applied “ is true repenting."---sinweiy---you got it right
i'll do my evil and gear for that one last TOTO moment cos i'm hoplessly hopeful hahaha... SW: to miss my 'note' part.
Now could we just get back to the topic:
How do we know whether someone is enlightened?
SW: i see their Dharma teaching, their morale conduct, their abiding in sunyata or their calmness, and their uncondition compassion to sentient beings.
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SW: To attain Buddhahood, is also to attain pureland mind. it's non-dual. Buddha's mind is pure and when the mind is pure, the "land" (be it the impure saha) IS pure. like Beauty lies in the mind of the beholder.
You can call it pureland mind i can call it no man land, we go nowhere.
SW: Human realm is for attaining Buddhahood, yes. even if we go to pureland, eventually one also have to return to human realm to display the final stage of Buddhahood, to turn the Dharma Wheel.--why turn the dharma wheel again?
SW: i see their Dharma teaching, their morale conduct, their abiding in sunyata, and their uncondition compassion to sentient beings.--So did you see any englighten one lately?
SW: yet we also cannot don't have this skillful means. -- you dont have to.
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You can call it pureland mind i can call it no man land, we go nowhere.
sw: it lies in the eye's of the beholder. up to u.
why turn the dharma wheel again?
sw: as the dharma is forgotten so Buddha is needed to re-teach.
So did you see any englighten one lately?
sw: hmm...lol...ok. ultimately, i wanted to see everyone as enlightened, while i'm the only unenlighten person as taught by MCK.. but habits sometimes kicks in.
you dont have to.
sw: conventionally u do need. like u need words to describe something or event or idea. no words, people also cannot know what u refering. words is a form of skillful means per se. like finger pointing to the moon. the finger pointing is a mean, while the actual idea is to show the moon. no finger pointing or Dharma, nobody know where's nirvana per se.
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sw: conventionally u do need. like u need words to describe something or event or idea. no words, people also cannot know what u refering. words is a form of skillful means per se. like finger pointing to the moon. the finger pointing is a mean, while the actual idea is to show the moon. no finger pointing or Dharma, nobody know where's nirvana per se-- needed for communication, not for self help.
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sw: as the dharma is forgotten so Buddha is needed to re-teach.--dharma updating
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Reciting amitabha encompasses 戒定慧. Control your wild thoughts and focus on reciting is 戒 leading to 定 through frequent practice. When we have sufficient 定, we would be able to receive merits of our buddha nature with infinite compassion and wisdom (慧) based on amitabha's vows.
I asked my mum (she already 60) to just recite amitaba without even explaining to her how good is PL. This is the only path that I have a chance to meet her there, isn't it?? So I may consider myself and my mum as escapists.
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Originally posted by JitKiat:
I asked my mum (she already 60) to just recite amitaba without even explaining to her how good is PL. This is the only path that I have a chance to meet her there, isn't it?? So I may consider myself and my mum as escapists.
yeah. i'm also thinking like Culapanthaka, we may not know 'they' , after their realisation, (ie open their wisdom already), know "bodhicitta" more than we do.like we are the ones reading about the theory of swimming. while they are the ones practicing swimming itself. we think they don't know, but in fact they know throught their daily practice of nianfo.
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Originally posted by distorted:
needed for communication, not for self help.
the idea/thought of "needed for communication" is itself a 'self-help'. they are all self help. help others and help self is non-dual.
dharma updating
and refreshing.
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sinweiy-"the idea/thought of "needed for communication" is itself a 'self-help'. they are all self help. help others and help self is non-dual." --ah.. you notice, pass! +10 buddhist credit to you. Will catch you next time
Ha ha Ha............. -
Originally posted by justdoit77:
I am not sure what you meant by escapists.
Anyway, this reminds me of a question that why evil peope cannot be born in pureland.
It is not that buddha has no compassion to them, but they have done so much bad thing when they are alive, so it is impossible (terms & conditions applied) for them to reborn in the pureland. We are responsible for our own action, as the word saying 神通�敌业力.However, 愿力能敌业力。Amitabha Buddha vows to save all of us who vows to go to his Pureland. A combination of both vows from the Buddha and us will help us to overcome 业力.
That is not to say, there is no Cause and Effect at all. There will still be some remants of bad karma that will remain inside us. However, when we are living as Bodhisattvas to be in the Pureland, we will learn not only from Amitabha Buddha, Guan Yin and Da Shi Zhi, we will also get to learn from Buddhas from all directions.
From there, we will eventually be able to help free ourselves from the bondages of bad karma.