there's this phrase in taoism .
the tao that can be expressed is not the eternal tao , the name that can be named is not the eternal name .
i start with the name , any object that does not have a fixed indentity or self is subjected to changes , like u can call a star a star but it does not remain a star forever .it would become a blackhole a dwarf star ...........
so all form are subjected to changes and there's no permanent stae .
so the name that can be named is not the eternal name .
I wont be goldevil forever .
I would experience changes in my body , i would die . i would rebirth .
i cant be named . I dun exist because i dun have a permanent form/ self.
Tao is everywhere , it's hard to define it in words . if we could express tao easily in words , it's not the eternal dao .
it's like the way (tao) universe works remains constant and unchanged like dharma ( buddhism ). dharma is eternal , we call it dharma but is there really an eternal name for it .
ur writing system and speech does not last forever . we cant use words and speech ( impermanance ) to describe something eternal .
i think dharma does not have a name and there's no nid for dharma to have a name .
does this phrase detonate impermanance .
sorry spelling mistake , impermanance .
IMO, it depends on how one understands it.
'Eternal' cannot be an object or a concept. There really should not be any self-existing thing to hold onto.
Impermanence 'conceptualised' and impermanence 'experienced' is very different.
Impermanence experienced feels like nothing is moving. This could be because 'awareness flows with the changes'.
regards
Yes, there is no objects in the first place. No objects have inherent existence, all are empty.
'Eternal' and 'unchanging' should also not be understood as the opposite of change, which will then be duality. Anything suggesting 'eternal' in Buddhism should not be understood as that.
See http://buddhism.sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/184819 (which 3 level of impermanence do u understand?)
Thusness:
Yes, there is no ‘something’ coming into being and undergoing disintegration. When the mind attempts to understand the phenomenon existence through our current mode of knowing that works through comparison and measurement, the conclusion we derived seems paradoxical. When we choose to see the ‘arising’, the thinking mind cannot see the cessation. Neither ‘arising’ nor ‘cessation’ ‘is before nor after the other. The sequence is caused by the mind. By choosing one, it has to give up the other. The thinking mind needs a base and the base becomes an ‘entity’, a ’’something’. That ‘something’, that ‘entity’ is required due to the poverty of our thinking mechanism, it is not the true face of reality. A lighting flash of moment exhibits the entirety of the Dharma seals and it is only in Buddhism that is pointed out. Not only that, Buddha also taught us the systematic way of developing the intuitive insight into reality.
enlightenment cant be expressed in words .
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/mistaken-reality-of-amness.html
Thusness:
In Buddhism, there is no eternality, only timeless continuity (timeless as in vividness in present moment but change and continue like a wave pattern). There is no changing thing, only change.
cool !
dharma is timeless continuity , even ur universe is destroyed , it remains there .
Originally posted by goldevil:cool !
dharma is timeless continuity , even ur universe is destroyed , it remains there .
No, that is already thinking in terms of time, and in terms of entity -- 'universe' 'destroyed'.
Timeless means, as Thusness said, vividness in present moment but change and continue like a wave pattern.
This moment of appearances though is the vivid appearance of ground luminosity, subsides as it arises.
then wad is lao tsu trying to say .
I am not so wise to understand it .
oh time to prepare to go back to camp .
The meaning of contemplating Impermanence:
(12:21 AM) Thusness: what is the role of insight meditation?
(12:22 AM) Thusness: why bare attention?
(12:22 AM) Thusness: why naked awareness?
(12:22 AM) Thusness: when insight meditation is taught and buddha
said when hearing jsut the sound...this and that...
(12:23 AM) Thusness: what buddha wanted is to experience directly
what awareness is, the arising, the ceasing, the clarity, the
non-dual nature
(12:23 AM) Thusness: in DO
(12:24 AM) AEN_____: icic..
(12:24 AM) Thusness: not to note it with thought or place any
conclusion on any experience.
(12:25 AM) Thusness: "this is impermanence" is not about noting and
place any conclusion about an phenomenon arising.
(12:26 AM) Thusness: but experience impermanence directly, not in
words
(12:26 AM) AEN_____: icic.. yea
(12:26 AM) Thusness: be impermanence and know what is it
really...
(12:26 AM) Thusness: see what clarity is, not what it should be
(12:27 AM) Thusness: it is luminous and yet empty...experience it
directly...it is so.
(12:27 AM) AEN_____: icic..
(12:27 AM) Thusness: break the solidity until there is no holding
simply thus.
Originally posted by goldevil:then wad is lao tsu trying to say .
I am not so wise to understand it .
I'm not familiar with Taoism. Someone should explain it better.
then what does an enlightened person see a form as ?
voidness or emptiness is its core ?
i think if i manage to do that i will understand .
but "I" cant get enlightened .
haha ......
sorry i am still learning buddhism .
sorry for the mistakes .
some chim concept r still hard to grasp .
i am not a buddhist though because i din go through the ceremony .
but my interest is religion and economics and psychology .
i find taoism and buddhist (esp zen buddhism ) to be very abstract and interesting .
currently serving NS .
i can only post in the weekends .
Just a note:
In Buddhism, there is a difference between a Reality -- a Dharma (a phenomena that is experientially real), and a concept.
For example, a Universe 'out there' is a concept. For example, Male and Female is a concept. It is not an experiential reality. It is not a Dharma. Dharma is simply experiential reality, and the nature of experiential reality is Luminous and Empty. While there is the quality of awareness (luminosity), it is at the same time empty of inherent existence, ungraspable.
The Buddha taught that the ALL is only 5 Skhandas (form, feeling, perception, volition, consciousness) and 18 Dhatus (6 sense organs, 6 sense objects and 6 sense consciousness).
That means All There Is, i.e. our Entirety of Experiential Reality is only the 5 skhandas (prior to enlightenment) and the 18 dhatus, and there is nothing apart from that. That is, the All in Buddhism is only the experiential reality -- the All is really just our awareness in its differing conditions. Note also, that Buddhism does not teach an Atman, a Soul or a higher or permanent reality of any sort apart from the 5 skhandas and 18 dhatus. Instead, Buddha Nature is refering to the nature of all of our experiential reality (i.e 18 dhatus) being luminous-emptiness inseparable.
Anything apart from that would be a Concept, not a Reality (dharma).
When the Buddha taught that All Dharma is Anicca, Dukkham, and Anatta, he is refering to our Experiential reality as being Impermanent, Suffering and No-self.
He's not talking about concepts such as Universe as being impermanent. Of course he do talk about such concepts, and also to remind ourselves that life is impermanent and the time of death is uncertain, but when he is teaching the Dharma and the practices, he is not refering to concepts but refering to experiential reality -- i.e. our Awareness.
So when we are contemplating impermanence, which is a form of Vipassana (insight meditation) we contemplate at an experiential level. That is by direct experience without further labeling and symbols, we experience our 5 skhandas as being impermanent, non static and everchanging. Also, as suffering, as non-self. As empty.
Originally posted by goldevil:then what does an enlightened person see a form as ?
voidness or emptiness is its core ?
i think if i manage to do that i will understand .
but "I" cant get enlightened .
haha ......
An enlightened being sees form as form -- that is, he experiences thoughts, sensations and all experiences in Clarity, as the play of Luminous Clarity itself. He doesn't see void or emptiness.
But at the same time he knows there is no inherent existence, he knows the nature of all appearances is empty, ultimately is without birth and death. Just like a flower in the mirror or the image of the moon in the water appearing and disappearing actually does not refer to a truly existent entity being born and die. Yet the appearances continue to arise vividly as clarity. Thus, Emptiness is Form.
Originally posted by goldevil:
I wont be goldevil forever .
I would experience changes in my body , i would die . i would rebirth .
i cant be named . I dun exist because i dun have a permanent form/ self.
There is no 'I' that experience changes in the body, there is no 'I' that would die, there is no 'I' that would be reborn. Rebirth happens, change happens, death happens, to no one. Remember that Reality is not concept. It is experiential. Concepts only refer to relative truths, not Reality. 'I' is only a concept.
Unfortunately most of us are under the influence of our karmic propensities to think that there is an 'I' that is ultimately real, who is the experiencer, and subject of birth and death, and so on. In reality all there is is the process of 5 skhandas with no core or center or a person experiencing.
Thusness:
Life (Self) is nothing other than the continuous flow of the Now Moment.
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Originally posted by goldevil:sorry i am still learning buddhism .
sorry for the mistakes .
some chim concept r still hard to grasp .
i am not a buddhist though because i din go through the ceremony .
but my interest is religion and economics and psychology .
i find taoism and buddhist (esp zen buddhism ) to be very abstract and interesting .
currently serving NS .
i can only post in the weekends .
It's already a rare and good thing for anyone to want to learn more about Buddhism, even though some may treat as just an interest or mere academic research.
Zen buddhism is indeed the most abstract form of Buddhist teachings for it 'points' directly to the Buddha nature in all of us.
All the best for your NS and hope you will be able to use what Buddhist teachings that you can understand to help you in any practical aspect of your life.
Take care. ^_^ (Mai talk cock if free, think about how to apply religious concepts to help yourself and help others while in camp)
When you ord, definitely something good will come out of it. :)