Originally posted by sofital:Yes. I never heard this in Theravada.You know, Not even Arahart state, An�g�mi person are afraid of returning to Samara.Anagami person 's insight is at fine particles state.Whatever matter in this world becomes fine particles in Anagami insight.They told us they are afraid of suffering of life. They don't want life.This conditions are against what you said.Brith means suffering in Anagami's enlighenment.How you understand it?please
I'm not too sure about 'afraid of suffering of life'... actually, if a person becomes enlightened, he will overcome his fear of life. He will still seek to attain Nirvana but he will at the same time overcome his fear of life and death.
But I suppose there might still be a subtle preference there of the state of Nirvana/cessation over samsara.
Just a guess.. I might be wrong, I'm not where near Anagami or Arhat.. lol
Maybe longchen may want to comment from his understandings..?
Originally posted by sofital:I think Theravadins do not share such understandings.
We did not share such understandings because all the famous sayadaw and Arahart from Therava Buddhism history, never said all these. I have never heard or read about this from thousand of Therava Buddhism book and Pali laguage of Buddha scripture.
How you understand it? All the Dhamma theory are should be relevant.
Because like I said the path of Bodhisattva and the path of personal liberation is different and results in different fruition... one is Sravaka bodhi, i.e. Arhat. Another one is Annutarasamyaksambodhi, i.e. Buddha.
There are however many experienced Mahayana masters who can comment from personal experience.
Anagami person has already overcome his fear of life and death.They means suffering is arising and perishing of fine particles in every matters and arising and perishing of mind in very short second.They don't want body and mind .So they don't like life.If they have the body and mind, they are afraid of seeing the arising and perishing of fine particles in the body and arising and perishing of their mind .
Not fear of suffering of death of life
Fear of seeing arising and perishing of fines particles in the body and arising and perishing of mind in the life.
Thanks for sharing. How you understand it?
As you said , path of Bodhisattva have to go through third Enlightenment or Anagami Magga before they attain the fourth Englighenment. Whoever attain all the properties of Anagami must be same.
I'm wondering if body relics of Mahayana teacher is proof for Arahart.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I'm not too sure about 'afraid of suffering of life'... actually, if a person becomes enlightened, he will overcome his fear of life. He will still seek to attain Nirvana but he will at the same time overcome his fear of life and death.
But I suppose there might still be a subtle preference there of the state of Nirvana/cessation over samsara.
Just a guess.. I might be wrong, I'm not where near Anagami or Arhat.. lol
Maybe longchen may want to comment from his understandings..?
Hmmm... I dunno whether i can be considered anagami or not. Anyway, i will just reply from my understanding. Not definitive ... just a sharing.
Gradually, the 'afraid of suffering of life' actually subside. (not 100% at my current stage, though). This actually got to do with the egoic mind losing its power to condition. It is the 'sense of self/egoic mind' that is conceptualizing all the possible scenarios and creating the tensions and suffering. Those 'what if's that are projections of possible scenarios are not entertained that much. This got to do with the mind 'smartened up' to the dynamics of the egoic mind which constantly seek to avoid bad things from happening. However, in samsara there simply is no escaping from things that we don't like to experience. When there is no complete escape, a person do not invest too much time escaping.
That is why, the earlier gathered informations on 'how spiritual knowledge should be' has to be dropped away too. This is because the act of refering to and verifying experiences via gathered knowledge is the activity of the egoic mind/self. If we try to abhere to all the informations that we have read about, we will get even more confused. Many of the informations themselves do not fully aligned with one another.
All of us can be so-called enlightened and still exhibit pockets of ignorance :)
How the person know himself got the enlightenment during the meditation?
Our body and mind are changes from arising to perishing state in every small tiny time.When the meditator reaches to culminating position of mind purification during meditation, his changes of mind from arising to perishing state stops for a minute portion of time.Why his mind his changes of mind from arising to perishing state stops?His mind is inclined to Nibbana for a minute portion of time.This is called Enlighenment.After that, meditator can review his defilements from the body and mind to decide which defilements are killed and which defilements are still remaining in the body and mind.
This is translated from Theinguu Arahart experience on meditation.
Originally posted by sofital:How the person know himself got the enlightenment during the meditation?
Our body and mind are changes from arising to perishing state in every small tiny time.When the meditator reaches to culminating position of mind purification during meditation, his changes of mind from arising to perishing state stops for a minute portion of time.Why his mind his changes of mind from arising to perishing state stops?His mind is inclined to Nibbana for a minute portion of time.This is called Enlighenment.
This is translated from Theinguu Arahart experience on meditation.
Hmmm...
Please correct me if I am wrong. I think Thusness will have a better understanding.
For Enlightenment, the cessation can occurs not only in the meditation. It can also be experienced during the waking hours, like sitting or even standing.
What is described above is the initial awakening resulting from the shutting down of all sensory perceptions including thoughts. This can occur from doing one-point meditation of focusing on breathe.
Initial awakening can occurs within days or months of constant meditation. After the initial awakening, the challenge is to have progressive realisations that will integrate Presence into the waking hours. This is very challenging.
The rest and cessation of mind of an enlightened person should be experienced as a daily occurence and not just in meditation. The rest may not be fully possible without the correct understanding of non-duality and the working dynamics of the 'sense of self'..
Just my opinion.
Your opinion is right. My description is general and basic understanding that happen in during meditation period.
Originally posted by sofital:Your opinion is right. My description is general and basic understanding that happen in during meditation period.
I see...
Thanks for the clarification and sharing.
Appreciate your topics.Thanks.
How come the birth of a Bodhisattva occur due to his vow?
From my understanding and other proof of Arahart, whoever got the fourth enlightenment has no more given birth and never return to Samsara.
How do you understand it ?Eternal Now have given the comments.
Originally posted by sofital:Anagami person has already overcome his fear of life and death.They means suffering is arising and perishing of fine particles in every matters and arising and perishing of mind in very short second.They don't want body and mind .So they don't like life.If they have the body and mind, they are afraid of seeing the arising and perishing of fine particles in the body and arising and perishing of their mind .
Not fear of suffering of death of life
Fear of seeing arising and perishing of fines particles in the body and arising and perishing of mind in the life.
I do not think so.. There should not be fear in seeing arising and perishing even if prajna wisdom has not arisen.
Originally posted by longchen:Hmmm...
Please correct me if I am wrong. I think Thusness will have a better understanding.
For Enlightenment, the cessation can occurs not only in the meditation. It can also be experienced during the waking hours, like sitting or even standing.
What is described above is the initial awakening resulting from the shutting down of all sensory perceptions including thoughts. This can occur from doing one-point meditation of focusing on breathe.
Initial awakening can occurs within days or months of constant meditation. After the initial awakening, the challenge is to have progressive realisations that will integrate Presence into the waking hours. This is very challenging.
The rest and cessation of mind of an enlightened person should be experienced as a daily occurence and not just in meditation. The rest may not be fully possible without the correct understanding of non-duality and the working dynamics of the 'sense of self'..
Just my opinion.
Well said :)
Originally posted by sofital:Appreciate your topics.Thanks.
How come the birth of a Bodhisattva occur due to his vow?
From my understanding and other proof of Arahart, whoever got the fourth enlightenment has no more given birth and never return to Samsara.
How do you understand it ?Eternal Now have given the comments.
Arhat has no more birth because his afflictions and defilements have completely vanished. They also do not have the vows to remain in samsara as a Bodhisattva, so they simply "blow out" into their personal cessation.
From my understanding, Bodhisattvas of higher bhumis may also completely eradicate those afflictions but still be reborn due to his vows and wish... they can also choose the birth they want to take, they are not reborn due to karmic fruition. Usually we are reborn according to our karma and do not have the ability to choose your rebirth... if you have bad karma you will reborn in hell, if you have good karma, maybe human or deva realm. The birth is due to karmic ripening. The Bodhisattvas of higher bhumis can choose precisely where and when they want to take birth, so it is not karmic birth.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Well said :)
By Dharma Dan -- see especially the 'Third Path' a.k.a Anagami description, www.interactivebuddha.com
THE HEART SUTRA MODEL
This
model is based upon the phrase in the Heart Sutra “form is emptiness,
emptiness is form.” To my knowledge, this model is not found in quite
this presentation anywhere other than here, nor has it ever been
related to the Four Path model of the Theravada in the way that
follows. The inspiration for using this phrase comes from a wonderful
chapter in Chogyam Trungpa’s Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism
called “Shunyata.”
I present this somewhat novel model here
because it focuses on real insight directly and treats any emotional
benefits of this as side effects. Further, there are often too many
cycles of insight before arahatship, making the four path model
troublesome. This phenomena of too many cycles (which I will sometimes
call “paths” with a lowercase “p”) between each of the Four Paths gets
worse as one works towards final awakening. As Bill Hamilton put it,
and I have learned the hard way, “The arahat fractal is vast.”
This
model does not reinforce fascination with content, nor with life
denying ideals or limited emotional range models in the way that the
traditional Four Path Model often does. It does not tempt one to count
paths. It keeps the focus on precise inquiry into the truth and one’s
experience of it or lack thereof.
This model basically says that
enlightenment is about direct insight that progressively reveals
something different in the relationship to the field of experience and
gradually allows things in it to be held in their proper proportion.
However, as to the specific implications of this increased clarity and
more realistic perspective as regards behavior or how emotions
manifest, all bets are off.
We will begin with the obvious
statement that “form is form.” By form, I mean all mental and physical
phenomena, i.e. the world of sensations as we know it. Saying that
“form is form” is like saying that “sensations are sensations” or
“experience is experience.” There is nothing all that profound about
this understanding, and all living creatures know this. This is the
state of understanding before stream entry. It is valid within its
scope, and this should not be forgotten. The laws of the world are the
laws of the world, and these must be acknowledged and respected, as
must the beings that live in that world.
By clearly
investigating form, one eventually comes to the understanding of the
stream enterer, that “emptiness is emptiness.” Unlike those that are
unenlightened, one who has attained first path, that of stream entry,
has directly understood in some completely inexplicable way what is
meant by “emptiness” in terms of the non-experience of “ultimate
reality” that results from entering Fruition through one of the Three
Doors. However, while the stream enterer may have some intellectual
clues about the “relationship” between emptiness and form due to the
ways the Three Doors present, they have no obvious direct experience of
it when experiencing almost all sensations. Correlations between this
model and the Four Path model begin to break down during the middle two
Paths.
Thus, the meanings of interdependence, dependent arising
and particularly non-duality will still be somewhat mysterious to them,
though in some intuitive way they will have a deeper understanding of
these than someone who is unenlightened. Second path is a step higher
in terms of the Four Path map, but it brings no huge improvements in
the understanding of these things from the point of view of this model.
The phenomenal world still generally seems perniciously “dual” for both
those of the first two paths. At both first and second path, Nirvana is
largely seen as something beyond all of this, an inconceivable
discontinuity. However, it seems to have little to do with most of the
sensations of the world except that it is “found” in the attainment of
Fruition beyond experience and the sensate universe. It can be
frustrating that the refuge seems to be found largely outside the
universe in some non-experience, and there is a growing sense that true
freedom must somehow be found in the world however it manifests.
Precise inquiry into the true nature of sensations continues as before.
The
next understanding that comes is that “form is emptiness.” This might
be thought of as the understanding of those of third path, as the
attainment of this understanding does some serious damage to the
illusion of a separate watcher or self, i.e. to the illusion of
duality. However, it is very appropriate here to reiterate the truth of
the joke being made by the phrase “Twelfth Path.” There may be a lot of
cycles of insight and fascinating stuff that goes on between stream
entry and the dawning of the understanding that “form is emptiness.” In
exactly the same way, there may also be many new levels at which this
may be understood before the work is fully done. Thus, counting paths
doesn’t work well when using this model beyond first path.
That
said, the concept of Nirvana now seems to generally apply to the
phenomenal world as well as the attainment of Fruition, though there is
still something clouding the waters. Those of third path will have a
direct understanding of what is meant by non-duality, the “intrinsic
luminosity” of phenomena and of “interdependence” that is far more
direct and clear than the somewhat intuitive understanding of those of
first and second path. This holds up quite well until they get into
another progress cycle.
The primary
benefit of attaining third path is that when the mind stops laboring
under the gross aspects of the illusion of a dualistic split (of a
subject and an object, an observer and the observed) the mind does not
produce nearly so much noise related to fundamental attraction (trying
to get to the other side of the imagined split when the other side
seems pleasant) and fundamental aversion (trying to get away from the
other side of the imagined split when the other side seems unpleasant).
Since
it is not producing so much useless noise based upon the illusion of
duality, this reveals very significant levels of fundamental peace,
balance and clarity. It is a bit like the increased performance of a
computer that results from stopping useless processes that were running
in the background. Thus, we begin to see some hints of the tenuous
relationship between the non-duality models and the limited emotional
range models. The weird thing is that the more one pays attention, the
more the emotional range seems to grow.
A person of third path,
that is, an anagami or “never returner”, (however many insight cycles
it took to “get there” and assuming this point can be clearly defined,
which is dubious) has eliminated or overcome “fundamental attraction”
and “fundamental aversion” (in non-duality terms) to ordinary
phenomena. This is because, when experiencing most sensations,
particularly when not in meditative states of high clarity, the sense
of a separate self or duality may seem to be largely absent or often
exceedingly subtle to those of third path. They simply no longer make
this false imputation from most sensations. This is a radical shift in
understanding, and is one of the reasons why going from second path to
third path is often found to be much more difficult than going from
first path to second path. It requires great deal of trust in reality
as well as a fairly new realm of understanding. Paths that emphasize
“surrender to the will of God” might well have an easier time with this
transition. Simply emphasizing the Third Characteristic, that all
things simply happen on their own, works just as well.
Those of
“third path” do have gaps in their understanding, and there is still a
largely subtle process of the mind creating artificial dualities that
may become more obvious during moments of high clarity. There is still
a subtle but illusory sense that there is a peaceful and clear “this”
or separate self that is not being perturbed most of the time by
“that,” i.e. the world.
Ironically, the benefits of this level
of understanding and the subtlety of the remaining illusion of duality
can be the primary impediments to further progress. The mind of those
of third path may attach to (try to solidify and then pretend it is
self, the property of a self, or created by a self) such things as
panoramic perspectives, mental silence, peace, clarity, the sometimes
seemingly complete sense of non-duality, and that sort of thing. It is
still trying to section off a part of reality as separate, realized and
in control, and at these higher levels of awakening can do so in
increasingly sophisticated and seductive ways. It becomes progressively
harder to see what needs more work and easier to rationalize gaps in
understanding once they are seen. On the other hand, there are few new
tricks left that the process of creating the illusion of duality can
throw at an anagami, and what is left to do is basically a question of
learning the same old lessons again and again for a new set of subtle
sensations and qualities of experience. Clear investigation of the
sensations that make up reality is still highly recommended, as always.
Did I mention that the large number of full, new and complete progress
cycles from this stage to the next might surprise you? I hope so.
Finally,
arahats understand that “emptiness is form.” Nirvana is found in
samsara, in the midst of the phenomenal world, as well as in the
attainment of Fruition beyond the phenomenal world. This is what is
meant by removing the “last veil of unknowing.” They understand that it
is form that is empty, that some illusory sense of a split off
peacefulness or island of imperturbability was never true or realistic
refuge. All of these phenomena are already empty and always have been.
This is the great cosmic punch line: all of this transience turns out
to have been it all along. Not only was form empty, but emptiness was
actually form. The split is gone.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Those of “third path” do have gaps in their understanding, and there is still a largely subtle process of the mind creating artificial dualities that may become more obvious during moments of high clarity. There is still a subtle but illusory sense that there is a peaceful and clear “this” or separate self that is not being perturbed most of the time by “that,” i.e. the world.
Ironically, the benefits of this level of understanding and the subtlety of the remaining illusion of duality can be the primary impediments to further progress. The mind of those of third path may attach to (try to solidify and then pretend it is self, the property of a self, or created by a self) such things as panoramic perspectives, mental silence, peace, clarity, the sometimes seemingly complete sense of non-duality, and that sort of thing. It is still trying to section off a part of reality as separate, realized and in control, and at these higher levels of awakening can do so in increasingly sophisticated and seductive ways. It becomes progressively harder to see what needs more work and easier to rationalize gaps in understanding once they are seen. On the other hand, there are few new tricks left that the process of creating the illusion of duality can throw at an anagami, and what is left to do is basically a question of learning the same old lessons again and again for a new set of subtle sensations and qualities of experience. Clear investigation of the sensations that make up reality is still highly recommended, as always. Did I mention that the large number of full, new and complete progress cycles from this stage to the next might surprise you? I hope so.
Finally, arahats understand that “emptiness is form.” Nirvana is found in samsara, in the midst of the phenomenal world, as well as in the attainment of Fruition beyond the phenomenal world. This is what is meant by removing the “last veil of unknowing.” They understand that it is form that is empty, that some illusory sense of a split off peacefulness or island of imperturbability was never true or realistic refuge. All of these phenomena are already empty and always have been. This is the great cosmic punch line: all of this transience turns out to have been it all along. Not only was form empty, but emptiness was actually form. The split is gone.
After reading this paragraph more recently, Thusness no longer have doubts about Daniel's arhatship and said it was a very clear description. He said initially when he read the book, he missed this part and thought Dharma Dan might still be an anagami. (and in fact according to Daniel himself most of the e-book was written while he was still an Anagami)
Another more recent model by Dharma Dan:
31. Models of the Stages of Enlightenment, IV
A Revised Four Path Model
Here is my revised version of the Four Path Model, and this is the primary model I use when describing awakening, talking about my practice, and helping others practice. I think that using the original terminology and revising its definitions allows a lot of good material in the Pali Canon to be used, thus provides a link to previously done work. However, I realize that using terminology that already has such deep cultural and dogmatic resonance may be a problem. For those who want something new, I will shortly present a rephrasing of this model that I call the Simple Model.
In the Revised Four Path Model, Stream Enterers have discovered the complete discontinuity that is called Fruition and sometimes called Nirvana or Nibbana (Sanskrit vs. Pali). This is the first of two meanings of Nirvana, with the other being Fourth Path. Stream enterers cycle through the ñanas, know that awakening or some different understanding from the norm is possible, and yet they do not have all that different an experience of most sensations from those who are not yet stream enterers. They may correctly extrapolate a lot of good dharma insights from momentary experiences, particularly high up in High Equanimity and the three moments before a Fruition, but this is not the same as living there all the time. In fact, most stream enterers have a very hard time describing how things have changed in terms of their daily life.
Those of Second Path have now completed a new insight cycle. They understand the process by which enlightened beings make further progress and equate progress with further cycles of insight, which is partially true. More model-obsessed or intellectual practitioners at second path may get very into fractal models, consciousness models, enlightenment models, various integrative theories, and that sort of thing at this stage of practice. Psychological issues tend to be a bit more of a big deal during this phase, and psychological development become interesting to them in some way. By this point most people, though certainly not everyone, also have a pretty good understanding of the basics of the samatha jhanas, and these can be very fascinating. What they may be most bothered by is that cycle after cycle of practice, duality remains the predominant experience most of the time.
Those of Third Path have shifted their understanding of what progress is from those of Second Path, and have been to see that it is about seeing the emptiness, selflessness, impermanence, etc. of sensations in daily life and begin to see that they have the ability to do this. This can be a long, developmental process from the first time they notice this to it becoming a nearly complete experience. Thus, Third Path tends to be a long path, though it doesn’t have to be.
At the beginning of Third Path, most practitioners think: “I’ll just complete more cycles of insight, like I did before, and this will do the trick.” They don’t tend to understand what it is they have attained all that well yet, nor its deeper implications. By the mature stage of Third Path, which can take months to years to show up, the practitioner is more and more able to see the emptiness, selfless, centerlessness, luminosity, etc. of phenomena in real-time, so much so that it can be very difficult to notice what artificial dualities remain.
As they cycle, they will enter new territory, possibly causing some uncertainty or instability, and with each Review phase they tend to really feel that they have done it until they begin to notice the limits of their practice. There can be this nagging something in the background that things aren’t done, and yet figuring out exactly what the problem is can be very slippery. It is a bit like being in the stages before stream entry, trying to figure out what exactly needs to be done. They need to notice something that has nothing to do with the cycles, to finally untangle the knot of perception at its core, but doing this can be a real trick. It is a very strange place, as one seems to know the dharma all the way to the end and yet somehow it just isn’t quite enough. In that vein, it is interesting to note that I wrote the vast majority of this book while I was some sort of anagami, and on reflection I got just about everything right. My emphases are slightly different now, but the basics are all the same.
As things progress, anagamis begin to tire of the cycles to a small or large degree and begin to look to something outside of them or not related to them for the answer to the final question. Finally, the cycles of insight, the states of concentration, the powers, and all the other perks and prerogatives of their stage of awakening or concentration abilities (if they developed them) hold no appeal and only lead to more unsatisfying cycles.
I completed around 27 full, complete insight cycles with mind-blowing A&P Events, Ass-kicking Dark Nights, Equanimity phases, and what seemed to be brand new, fresh Fruitions and Review phases between third and fourth path. There is nothing special about that number, as I mentioned previously in my descriptions of the problem that I call Twelfth Path. The later cycles got faster and faster, so that by the end it seemed I was whipping one out every few weeks or even every few days, but they still seemed to be leading nowhere. It was only when I had gotten so sick of the cycles and realized that they were leading nowhere that I was able to see what has nothing to do with the cycles, which also wasn’t anything except a strange untangling of the knot of perception of them. The cycles, for better or worse, have continued just the same. Thus, there is not much point in counting cycles or paths, as they don’t necessarily correlate well with anything past the first two or three, and issues of backsliding can really make things complex, as I explained earlier.
Finishing up my Revised Four Path Model, arahats have finally untangled the knot of perception, dissolved the sense of the center point actually being the center point, no longer fundamentally make a separate Self out of the patterns of sensations that they used to, even though those same patterns of sensations continue. This is a different understanding from those of Third Path in some subtle way, and makes this path about something that is beyond the paths. This is also poetically called the opening of the Wisdom Eye. What is interesting is that I could write about this stage quite well when I was an anagami, but that is a whole different world from knowing it like arahats know it.
The Wisdom Eye may seem to blink initially. It may go through cycles of flashing open just after a Fruition and then slowly fading over a few hours (at least on retreat) as each round of physical sensations, then mental sensations, then complex emotional formations, then lastly fundamental formations such as inquiry itself move through and become integrated into this new, correct and direct perception of reality as it is. Review cycles may occur many times during each flash, but when the eye is open they seem rather irrelevant in comparison to keeping the level of clarity and acceptance high enough to keep the eye open. When the eye fades, the familiar insight cycles may seem like pure drudgery, with the focus being of practice initially lost in getting through the cycles and then gradually shifting again to getting clear enough to get the eye to open again. The themes that occupy center stage go through a cycle that is very much like a progress cycle.
Finally, the Wisdom Eye cycles and insight cycles all converge, and the thing stays open from then on, which is to say that at that point it all seems the same whether or not the eye is open, which it actually was. That being seen, nothing can erode or disturb the centerlessness of perspective. Done is what is to be done, and life goes on. That there are arahats who have opened the Wisdom Eye but had it fade and those who have opened it and had it stay open is rarely mentioned but worth knowing.
For the arahat who has kept the thing open, there is nothing more to be gained on the ultimate front from insight practices, as “done is what is to be done”. That said, insight practices can still be of great benefit to them for a whole host of reasons, there is a ton they can learn just like everyone else about everything else there is to learn. They can grow, develop, change, work and participate in this strange human drama just like everyone else.
A Simple Model
In earlier versions of this work, I had a model called The Heart Sutra Model. The Simple Model is the less mysterious, stripped down version of that earlier model, though in its essence it is basically the same. While in one sense it is also rephrasing of the Revised Four Path Model, as it has no numbers, and is free of the traditional names, it has some advantages over that terminology.
I present this somewhat novel model here because it focuses on real insight directly and treats any emotional benefits of this as side effects. Further, there are often too many cycles of insight before arahatship, making the Four Path model troublesome. This phenomena of too many cycles (which I will sometimes call “paths” with a lowercase “p”) between each of the Four Paths gets worse as one works towards final awakening. As Bill Hamilton put it, and I have learned the hard way, “The arahat fractal is vast.”
The Simple Model does not reinforce fascination with content, nor with life denying ideals or limited emotional range models in the way that the traditional Four Path Model often does. It does not tempt one to count paths. It keeps the focus on precise inquiry into the truth and one’s experience of it or lack thereof.
This model basically says that enlightenment is about direct insight that progressively reveals something different in the relationship to the field of experience and gradually allows things in it to be held in their proper proportion. Thus, it is a Non-Duality Model.
The first understanding is that sensations are sensations, thoughts are thoughts, and this forms the basis of further inquiry. When the universal characteristics of these sensations begin to be seen, this represents growth in understanding. When the whole sense field is known directly and completely as it is, this can cause an entrance into Fruition through one of the Three Doors, and represents the first stage of awakening.
When one appreciates the cycles of the process of awakening and has completed at least one more cycle, this is the next stage. When one begins to appreciate the emptiness, luminosity, centerlessness, agentlessness, etc. of phenomena in real-time and this becomes the focus of practice rather than Fruition, this is the next stage. When the sense of the watcher, observer, subject, controller, doer, etc. is seen completely as it is and the knot of perception untangles, that simple, fundamental way of perceiving things is the next stage of awakening. When that untangling stays untangled, that is the next stage. When that understanding is integrated into our lives, that is the next phase, though I am not sure it can be defined as a stage rather than as a process.
The problem is that the traditions seem to want to make this understanding into so much more than it is, such as add ideals of emotional perfection onto this. There is some truth in the models dealing with emotions, but it has to do with things moving through faster and being seen more clearly. It does not have anything to do with bad emotions not arising. I hate to even go here, as my goal is to give the emotional models the bashing they richly deserve, but I also want to not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Thus, here it goes.
As the deep-seated perceptual sense of a separate, continuous, permanent, observing Agent stops being extrapolated from the same old patterns of sensations that seemed to be those, there is this wider inclusive something that can come into the consciousness of the enlightened individual, depending on their level of awakening. There is also a slowly growing directness of perception that comes as reality is not filtered so exclusively through thought. These two can combine to give the emotions of enlightened beings less sticking power, so that they may move through more quickly than for those that are not enlightened, and also may be seen more quickly and clearly as they arise and vanish. There may also be less blind contraction into thoughts and emotions and a wider perspective, thus giving the other parts of the brain more of a chance of creating moderated responses to the emotions. That said, even when seen through, there seems to be a biological component to how emotions move through that can only be expedited so much.
Anyone who thinks these highly qualified statements are anything like a vision of emotional perfection or the elimination of all negative emotions is not paying attention! That is the last thing I wish to imply. I merely wish to say that there is some increased clarity about our basic human experience and it can help, but that is all. That said, you would be amazed how angry, lustful or ignorant enlightened beings can be, and they can still do all sorts of stupid things based on these emotions, just like everyone else. The ability to moderate responses to emotions can sometimes give the impression that those emotions have been attenuated, but that is not the same thing, and there is my nice transition to the Action Models.
In the Thirty-one Planes of Existence, everything are in arising and perishing conditions.If one is not afriad of arising and perishing of body and mind, they have to stay in Thirty-one Planes of Existence. Hence Anagami person are afraid of seeing in arising and perishing of body and mind.They want to see the phenomenum of arising and perishing of body and mind stop. After he phenomenum of arising and perishing of body and mind stop, their mind can cling to Nibbana.Because Nibbana don't have phenomenum of arising and perishing of body and mind.
According to Buddha said, Birth is only caused by Karma.No other Dhamma will cause birth of life.Buddha said birth is suffering.Whoeve attain the third or fourth enlightenment don't want suffering.If one still have vow to birth again, the defilement is still remaining in the body and mind.This defilement will cause the vow to birth again.This result lead to Karma.Karma causes birth again.All the Dhamma follow cause and effect theory.The birth of a Bodhisattva which occurred due to his vow not based on defilements is against the cause and effect theory and Karma theory.
I'm wondering the body relics of Bodhisattva after they pass away for the proof. Whoever attain the fourth enlightement pass away in the present life, they usually remain the body relics.
Here is the proof for Theinngu Arahart
http://www.realenlightenment.org/bio/thein-photo/full/IMG_4267.jpg http://www.realenlightenment.org/bio/thein-photo/full/IMG_4264.jpg
Here is the proof for Mogok Arahart
http://www.dhammadownload.com/MogokSayadaw.htm
How do you understand it? How is the proof of body relics in Bodhisattva after they pass away?
Originally posted by sofital:In the Thirty-one Planes of Existence, everything are in arising and perishing conditions.If one is not afriad of arising and perishing of body and mind, they have to stay in Thirty-one Planes of Existence. Hence Anagami person are afraid of seeing in arising and perishing of body and mind.They want to see the phenomenum of arising and perishing of body and mind stop. After he phenomenum of arising and perishing of body and mind stop, their mind can cling to Nibbana.Because Nibbana don't have phenomenum of arising and perishing of body and mind.
According to Buddha said, Birth is only caused by Karma.No other Dhamma will cause birth of life.Buddha said birth is suffering.Whoeve attain the third or fourth enlightenment don't want suffering.If one still have vow to birth again, the defilement is still remaining in the body and mind.This defilement will cause the vow to birth again.This result lead to Karma.Karma causes birth again.All the Dhamma follow cause and effect theory.The birth of a Bodhisattva which occurred due to his vow not based on defilements is against the cause and effect theory and Karma theory.
I do not think an Anagami or Arhat still have aversion to arising and passing. Only ordinary people have aversion to experiences, and an Arhat has completely eradicated such dualistic clinging.
Also, before an Arhat enters into Nirvana without mind or body, while still in Samsara, he is in Nirvana with mind and body. Since his mind is already in nirvana amidst samsara he does not fear samsara. In fact, he does not separate samsara with nirvana and clearly sees everything in the state of Nirvana.
What is Nirvana? Nirvana really not a "void" as opposed to phenomena we perceive or the arising and ceasing. It is also not a place or a mental state. Nirvana is simply the absence of the illusion of duality, of "self" versus "world", of the afflictions such as dualistic attraction, aversion, or ignorance. That is why an Arhat can continue living as long as the conditions for his mind and body is still present. Nirvana is not annihilation of a "self", it is simply the absence of conditions for the experience of suffering. In the case of remainderless nirvana (after death of an Arhat), it is the absence of conditions for further birth of the body and mind. This suffering is due to dualistic relationship with phenomena, and once that illusion is seen he is freed from all sufferings and realises the Unborn. What is most important is the Insight, as Buddha explains to Bahiya:
In the seen, there is only the seen,
in the heard, there is only the heard,
in the sensed, there is only the sensed,
in the cognized, there is only the cognized.
Thus you should see that
indeed there is no thing here;
this, Bahiya, is how you should train yourself.
Since, Bahiya, there is for you
in the seen, only the seen,
in the heard, only the heard,
in the sensed, only the sensed,
in the cognized, only the cognized,
and you see that there is no thing here,
you will therefore see that
indeed there is no thing there.
As you see that there is no thing there,
you will see that
you are therefore located neither in the world of this,
nor in the world of that,
nor in any place
betwixt the two.
This alone is the end of suffering.” (ud. 1.10)
An Anagami has also overcome the coarse attraction (desire) and aversion (or hatred) with arising and passing, but the subtler illusion of duality and afflictions remain.
When the illusion of "you" verses "arising and phenomena" ends, it is seen that in hearing it is simply Sound heard, there is no Hearer and the sound is not I nor mine nor is it "heard by me". It simply arise and pass by itself, and so since there is no "you" "clinging" to "sound", there is no experience of suffering. It only becomes suffering if there is the illusion of a "me" hearing the "sound" -- then "I" become annoyed by the "noise" and try to block off the sound (which is due to the illusion that there is a "me" who is separated from the "sound"). When duality is seen through, dualistic attraction and aversion towards arising and passing ends... suffering ends.
http://www.snowlionpub.com/pages/N64_8.html
Nirvana With and Without "Remainder"
Nirvana is neither a place nor a mental state. It is a fact about us. A nirvana is the absence of afflictions in someone whose cultivation of wisdom has resulted in the destruction of ignorance, desire, hatred, etc. That mere absence is the nirvana.
On that, all Buddhist schools agree. However, they disagree over the use of the term "remainder" used in conjunction with nirvana. Other than Prasangika, it is said that after a person attains nirvana, he or she subsequently can be said to have a "nirvana with remainder," the "remainder" being the body and mind. Death cuts the remainder. However, the nirvana without remainder is a single moment, occurring just at the time of death but not after. After death there is no person to whom the nirvana can belong!
Hinayana schools do not recognize any existence after death for an Arhat. The Mahayana schools do, and all except Asanga's say that Arhats manifest in different forms, no longer helplessly reborn according to karma, and continue to cultivate wisdom and merit until they have become Buddhas. Because Asanga and his followers say that there are Arhats who do not go on to Buddhahood, they must explain that those Arhats are born in the pure lands of Buddhas and abide there forever in meditative absorption.
The Prasangika school uses the term "remainder" in a completely different manner. For them, "remainder" has to do with whether or not to an Arhat things still appear to have true existence. To explain this, we have to recall what was said previously about the obstructions to liberation and obstructions to omniscience. What prevents our liberation is our conceptions of inherent existence. Things appear to us as though they exist from their own side, independently, and we assent to this appearance by conceiving of them in this way. Meditation that analyzes the way things exist will destroy this false conception, and we can be liberated from it and from the samsara it causes.
However, because of the way we have been conditioned, which in Buddhism is a process without beginning, things still appear to exist inherently. The liberated person is someone who no longer assents to this appearance, who is always doubtful of the evidence of the senses and resists conceiving of them in the wrong way. He or she is like someone who wears sunglasses, well aware that the green tint pervading all visible objects is just the effect of the lenses. It takes a very long time for the appearance of inherent existence itself to fade. Those "taints" of appearances are the obstructions to omniscience.
From this perspective, then, an Arhat experiences a nirvana with remainder most of the time, since most of the time things appear falsely. But then, when does a nirvana without remainder occur? It occurs only when that person is meditating on emptiness because at that time only emptiness appears to the mind. For nonBuddhas, it is impossible for both emptiness and other things to appear to the mind simultaneously. (Another way of putting this is to say that the two truths cannot appear simultaneously to a non-Buddha's mind.)
So, both Prasangikas and others could identify an Arhat's usual state, the time when he or she is not absorbed in meditation on emptiness, as a nirvana with remainder, but they would mean very different things by it. Prasangikas would mean that things falsely appear to the mind; others would mean that the Arhat is alive. Similarly, both Prasangikas and others would identify the nirvana of an Arhat at the time of death as being a nirvana without remainder but they would mean something different by it. Prasangikas would mean that at that time there is no false appearance to the mind (because, for a short time, only a vacuity appears to the mind), whereas others would mean that the body and mind are abandoned.
Other than the purpose of again pressing home their contention about the empty nature of things, why do Prasanigikas change this terminology? Jamyang Shayba here gives two arguments. First, it makes no sense to say that there is any person who experiences a nirvana without remainder if that means that the aggregates are abandoned. There is no person once the aggregates are destroyed. Second, the language that suggests that Arhats "extinguish" their aggregates really just refers to their emptiness. Like all things, our bodies and minds are "primordially extinguished" into emptiness because they are, and always have been, empty of inherent existence.
Originally posted by sofital:
According to Buddha said, Birth is only caused by Karma.No other Dhamma will cause birth of life.Buddha said birth is suffering.Whoeve attain the third or fourth enlightenment don't want suffering.If one still have vow to birth again, the defilement is still remaining in the body and mind.This defilement will cause the vow to birth again.This result lead to Karma.Karma causes birth again.All the Dhamma follow cause and effect theory.The birth of a Bodhisattva which occurred due to his vow not based on defilements is against the cause and effect theory and Karma theory.
A Bodhisattva does not seek cessation nor fear samsara. So having vows is seen to be not inherently a problem, as this is not due to mundane desires or ignorance but due to his great compassion for sentient beings. He sees great compassion and emptiness as inseparable.
Also, the appearance of Bodhisattva is due to the condition of his vows. But it is not due to karma, and he is no longer 'helplessly' under the power of karma to take rebirth. His remaining karma may condition his life, but it does not obstruct his liberation or his ability to enter into nirvana as he wishes. Meaning, he can enter nirvana as he wish, but he can also appear anywhere he want to in order to save all sentient beings and continue his path to Buddhahood. And a Bodhisattva does not abide in cessation. He lives in Non-Abiding Nirvana. In Mahayana we also have a similar understanding of the Buddhas.
Buddha's body is always apparent,
Filling the entire cosmos,
Always intoning far-reaching sound
Shaking all lands in all quarters.
Buddha manifests bodily everywhere,
Entering into all worlds,
Revealing occult spiritual power
According to the inclinations of beings.
Buddha appears before all beings
In accordance with their minds;
What the sentient beings see
Is the Buddha's mystic power.
His radiance has no bounds
And his teaching too is infinite;
Buddha children enter and observe
According to their knowledge.
The Buddha's body has no birth
Yet can appear to be born.
The nature of reality is like space:
Therein do the Buddhas dwell.
No abiding, yet no departing:
Everywhere the Buddha's seen;
His light reaches everywhere,
His fame is heard afar.
No substance, no abode,
And no origin that can be found;
No signs, no form:
What appears is like reflections.
- Avatamsaka Sutra p. 164-165