The Supreme Source - a fantastic Dzogchen book
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Hi All,
This is the one of the most advanced spiritual book that I have ever read. It is a real gem.
The Supreme Source: The Fundamental Tantra of the Dzogchen Semde
This book gives a direct hit into the face, smashing the illusions that spiritual seekers conceptualised about spirituality.However, to understand it, one may first need to have glimpses of Pure Presence or awareness.
The tantra also boldly explains the problems of other spiritual and even Buddhist traditions. It points out the conceptual misunderstandings existing within other paths,
The author is an important Teacher of the Tibetan Dzogchen tradition. His uncle and one of his teacher both attained the Rainbow body. In the rainbow body attainment, the physical body dissolves into its light essense, leaving no physical form behind.Thanks AEN for recommending the book to me :)
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Yes I think it is a really good book... However do note that the book is a little advanced and some readers may prefer to start on simpler ones.
I was first introduced to this book about half a year back by Thusness:
(9:31 AM) Thusness: Supreme Source is a very good book. You should get it.
(9:32 AM) Thusness: But it should be regarded as the final path of realisation.
(9:32 AM) Thusness: So without non-duality and emptiness, one should not think that he/she understood the teachings.
(9:35 AM) Thusness: The translator is also pretty good. Nevertheless he is unable to bring out the essence of it but Choygal Namkhai Rinpoche comments are wonderful. How amazing that the same words undergoing different translators can be so drastically different.
(9:36 AM) Thusness: The books translated by John is not as clear as those translated by Adriano Clemente...
He also said that he finds that the book deeply syncs with him especially after arriving at a new ongoing experience of effortless self-liberation and non-meditation.
(9:46 AM) Thusness: and this supreme source touches me deeply.
(9:47 AM) Thusness: U should get it. -
It is a very good book.
I will like to re-correct what i have said.
I think just having the initial glimpse of Pure Presence may not be enough to understand the book. Reading the book from that standpoint may result in misunderstanding the informations as 'I AM'. Especially when the 'Source' is written from a personified format.
One should have experiences of non-duality and emptiness to prevent the misunderstanding.
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For me, I prefer to read the original version of Buddha scripture defined by First Buddha Council.Any new words, methods and rules that are not inside in origianl Buddha scripture is rejected.From history of Buddhism, after holding of first Buddha council, The monk original group is divided into two major groups( Theravadda and Mahayana).Now there are so many major buddhism groups due to that some monks want to add ,edit or modify the original version of Buddha scripture.For those who want to add,edit or modify Buddha scirpture form new major Buddhism group.They lost the essence of Dhamma.In this world, as some peope has less knowledge in history of Buddhism, they are easily to be persuaded by new formed buddhism group. Parinibbana (Skt: Parinirvana; death and final release) of the Buddha, at Kusinara (now Kusinagar, India) (age 80). {1,3} During the rains retreat following the Buddha's Parinibbana, the First Council (sangayana) convenes at Rajagaha, India, during which 500 arahant bhikkhus, led by Ven. Mahakassapa, gather to recite the entire body of the Buddha's teachings. The recitation of the Vinaya by Ven. Upali becomes accepted as the Vinaya Pitaka; the recitation of the Dhamma by Ven. Ananda becomes established as the Sutta Pitaka. {1,4} The Sutta Pitaka, the second division of the Tipitaka, consists of more than 10,000 suttas (discourses) delivered by the Buddha and his close disciples during and shortly after the Buddha's forty-five year teaching career, as well as many additional verses by other members of the Sangha. More than nine hundred sutta translations are available on this website. The suttas are grouped into five nikayas, or collections: Digha Nikaya The "Long" Discourses (Pali digha = "long") consists of 34 suttas, including the longest ones in the Canon. The subject matter of these suttas ranges widely, from colorful folkloric accounts of the beings inhabiting the deva worlds (DN 20) to down-to-earth practical meditation instructions (DN 22), and everything in between. Recent scholarship suggests that a distinguishing trait of the Digha Nikaya may be that it was "intended for the purpose of propaganda, to attract converts to the new religion." 1 Majjhima Nikaya The "Middle-length" Discourses (Pali majjhima = "middle") consists of 152 suttas of varying length. These range from some of the most profound and difficult suttas in the Canon (e.g., MN 1) to engaging stories full of human pathos and drama that illustrate important principles of the law of kamma (e.g., MN 57, MN 86). Samyutta Nikaya The "Grouped" Discourses (Pali samyutta = "group" or "collection") consists of 2,889 relatively short suttas grouped together by theme into 56 samyuttas. Anguttara Nikaya The "Further-factored" Discourses (Pali anga = "factor" + uttara = "beyond," "further") consists of several thousand short suttas, grouped together into eleven nipatas according to the number of items of Dhamma covered in each sutta. For example, the Eka-nipata ("Book of the Ones") contains suttas about a single item of Dhamma; the Duka-nipata ("Book of the Twos") contains suttas dealing with two items of Dhamma, and so on. Khuddaka Nikaya The "Division of Short Books" (Pali khudda = "smaller," "lesser"), consisting of fifteen books (eighteen in the Burmese edition): 1. Khuddakapatha — The Short Passages 2. Dhammapada — The Path of Dhamma 3. Udana — Exclamations 4. Itivuttaka — The Thus-saids 5. Sutta Nipata — The Sutta Collection 6. Vimanavatthu — Stories of the Celestial Mansions 7. Petavatthu — Stories of the Hungry Ghosts 8. Theragatha — Verses of the Elder Monks 9. Therigatha — Verses of the Elder Nuns 10. Jataka — Birth Stories 11. Niddesa — Exposition 12. Patisambhidamagga — Path of Discrimination 13. Apadana — Stories 14. Buddhavamsa — History of the Buddhas 15. Cariyapitaka — Basket of Conduct 16. Nettippakarana (Burmese Tipitaka only) 17. Petakopadesa (Burmese Tipitaka only) 18. Milindapañha — Questions of Milinda (Burmese Tipitaka only) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/history.html
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Originally posted by sofital:
For me, I prefer to read the original version of Buddha scripture defined by First Buddha Council.Any new words, methods and rules that are not inside in origianl Buddha scripture is rejected.From history of Buddhism, after holding of first Buddha council, The monk original group is divided into two major groups( Theravadda and Mahayana).Now there are so many major buddhism groups due to that some monks want to add ,edit or modify the original version of Buddha scripture.For those who want to add,edit or modify Buddha scirpture form new major Buddhism group.They lost the essence of Dhamma.In this world, as some peope has less knowledge in history of Buddhism, they are easily to be persuaded by new formed buddhism group.
Parinibbana (Skt: Parinirvana; death and final release) of the Buddha, at Kusinara (now Kusinagar, India) (age 80). {1,3}
During the rains retreat following the Buddha’s Parinibbana, the First Council (sangayana) convenes at Rajagaha, India, during which 500 arahant bhikkhus, led by Ven. Mahakassapa, gather to recite the entire body of the Buddha’s teachings. The recitation of the Vinaya by Ven. Upali becomes accepted as the Vinaya Pitaka; the recitation of the Dhamma by Ven. Ananda becomes established as the Sutta Pitaka. {1,4}The Sutta Pitaka, the second division of the Tipitaka, consists of more than 10,000 suttas (discourses) delivered by the Buddha and his close disciples during and shortly after the Buddha’s forty-five year teaching career, as well as many additional verses by other members of the Sangha. More than nine hundred sutta translations are available on this website.
The suttas are grouped into five nikayas, or collections:
Digha Nikaya The “Long” Discourses (Pali digha = “long”
consists of
34 suttas, including the longest ones in the Canon. The subject
matter of these suttas ranges widely, from colorful folkloric
accounts of the beings inhabiting the deva worlds (DN 20) to
down-to-earth practical meditation instructions (DN 22), and
everything in between. Recent scholarship suggests that a
distinguishing trait of the Digha Nikaya may be that it was
“intended for the purpose of propaganda, to attract converts to the
new religion.” 1
Majjhima Nikaya The “Middle-length” Discourses (Pali majjhima = “middle” consists of
152 suttas of varying length. These range from some of the most
profound and difficult suttas in the Canon (e.g., MN
1) to engaging stories full of human pathos and drama that
illustrate important principles of the law of kamma (e.g.,
MN 57, MN 86).
Samyutta Nikaya The “Grouped” Discourses (Pali samyutta = “group” or “collection” consists of
2,889 relatively short suttas grouped together by theme into 56
samyuttas.
Anguttara Nikaya The “Further-factored” Discourses (Pali anga = “factor” + uttara = “beyond,” “further” consists of several thousand short suttas, grouped together into
eleven nipatas according to the number of items of Dhamma covered
in each sutta. For example, the Eka-nipata (“Book of the
Ones” contains
suttas about a single item of Dhamma; the Duka-nipata (“Book of the
Twos” contains
suttas dealing with two items of Dhamma, and so on.
Khuddaka Nikaya The “Division of Short Books” (Pali khudda = “smaller,” “lesser”, consisting
of fifteen books (eighteen in the Burmese edition):1. Khuddakapatha — The Short Passages 2. Dhammapada — The Path of Dhamma 3. Udana — Exclamations 4. Itivuttaka — The Thus-saids 5. Sutta Nipata — The Sutta Collection 6. Vimanavatthu — Stories of the Celestial Mansions 7. Petavatthu — Stories of the Hungry Ghosts 8. Theragatha — Verses of the Elder Monks 9. Therigatha — Verses of the Elder Nuns 10. Jataka — Birth Stories 11. Niddesa — Exposition 12. Patisambhidamagga — Path of Discrimination 13. Apadana — Stories 14. Buddhavamsa — History of the Buddhas 15. Cariyapitaka — Basket of Conduct 16. Nettippakarana (Burmese Tipitaka only) 17. Petakopadesa (Burmese Tipitaka only) 18. Milindapañha — Questions of Milinda (Burmese Tipitaka only)"The Mahayana sutras are recorded words of Buddha, the words of Buddha recorded from the visions of Indian masters from 100 BCE onwards, just as the Pali suttas are the words of Indian masters recorded when they saw the Buddha between roughly 460 BCE-400 BCE."
.
.
Now with regards to Tantras (of Vajrayana):
"Tantras in general have always had a revealed source, and for the most part have never sought authorship by the historical Buddha as a criteria for their validity-- the tantras come from Oddiyana, where they are kept by Dakini guardians. Indian Mahasiddhas would visit there, and recover texts to bring back to India, for example, Virupa recovered the Raktayamari cycle from there.
Certainly some major tantras (Kalachakra, Guhyasamaja, Hevajra, lower tantra in general) have been thought to have been taught by the historical Buddha by some Tibetan exegetes, but there are whole classes of tantras considered to have never been taught by Shakyamuni Buddha, but rather by Samhogakaya manifestations. For this reason, tantras continue to be produced (albeit they are completely unoriginal in content) and sutras have not continued to be reproduced."Lastly, we should be more concerned with the wisdom of the scripture and not so much of the origins of it.
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More quotations from "Loppon Namdrol":
"I take the position that tantric texts were gradually written down beginning in the sixth to seventh century based on the experiences of Buddhist masters. I don't see much difference between "created" and "revealed".
One day these texts did not exist, the next day they did-- authorship is not an issue for me, that is whether they are the produce of a Buddha or a master putting words in a Buddha's mouth does not matter-- I think the system is highly effective whatever its origin. ""That is completely irrelevent to the quality of the teaching of this or that sutra. One's criteria ought not be authorship, but wisdom."
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
"That is completely irrelevent to the quality of the teaching of this or that sutra. One's criteria ought not be authorship, but wisdom."
That's very true.
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Originally posted by longchen:
It is a very good book.
I will like to re-correct what i have said.
I think just having the initial glimpse of Pure Presence may not be enough to understand the book. Reading the book from that standpoint may result in misunderstanding the informations as 'I AM'. Especially when the 'Source' is written from a personified format.
One should have experiences of non-duality and emptiness to prevent the misunderstanding.
Thats very true also...
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I means the knowledge inside some books are out of the original Budhha scripture.Be careful about it. Thanks for your sharing.I admit I don't know so much knowledge on Mahayana. I discuss about Mahayana to members who is devotee in Theravadda Buddhism in other forum.They don't believe some difference between Mahayana and Theravadda.They check with Theravadda master about the differences.I think the differences still remain and cannot be adjusted The differences: 1) Mahayana believe the pureland. There are many buddhas around in different Purelands...in Amitabha sutra..it does mention some of the names 2) Mahayana believe if Bodhisattava ( who already attained fourth enlighenment) has the vow to return to Samara( cycles of rebirth and death), he will become human to save the human beings.A Bodhisattva are above the cycles of birth and death, but returns to samsara due to Bodhisatta vows. He is free and liberated like an Arhat but gives rise to great compassion for all sentient beings. Theravada - Mahayana Buddhism Ven. Dr. W. Rahula (From: "Gems of Buddhist Wisdom", Buddhist Missionary Society, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, 1996) Let us discuss a question often asked by many people: What is the difference between Mahayana and Theravada Buddhism? To see things in their proper perspective, let us turn to the history of Buddhism and trace the emergence and development of Mahayana and Theravada Buddhism. The Buddha was born in the 6th Century B.C. After attaining Enlightenment at the age of 35 until his Mahaparinibbana at the age of 80, he spent his life preaching and teaching. He was certainly one of the most energetic man who ever lived: for forty-five years he taught and preached day and night, sleeping for only about 2 hours a day. The Buddha spoke to all kinds of people: kings and princes, Brahmins, farmers, beggars, learned men and ordinary people. His teachings were tailored to the experiences, levels of understanding and mental capacity of his audience. What he taught was called Buddha Vacana, i.e. word of the Buddha. There was nothing called Theravada or Mahayana at that time. After establishing the Order of monks and nuns, the Buddha laid down certain disciplinary rules called the Vinaya for the guidance of the Order. The rest of his teachings were called the Dhamma which included his discourses, sermons to monks, nuns and lay people. The First Council Three months after the Buddha's Mahaparinibbana, his immediate disciples convened a council at Rajagaha. Maha Kassapa, the most respected and elderly monk, presided at the Council. Two very important personalities who specialised in the two different areas - the Dhamma and the Vinaya - were present. One was Ananda, the closest constant companion and disciple of the Buddha for 25 years. Endowed with a remarkable memory, Ananda was able to recite what was spoken by the Buddha. The other personality was Upali who remembered all the Vinaya rules. Only these two sections - the Dhamma and the Vinaya - were recited at the First Council. Though there were no differences of opinion on the Dhamma (no mention of the Abhidhamma) there was some discussion about the Vinaya rules. Before the Buddha's Parinibbana, he had told Ananda that if the Sangha wished to amend or modify some minor rules, they could do so. But on that occasion Ananda was so overpowered with grief because the Buddha was about to die that it did not occur to him to ask the Master what the minor rules were. As the members of the Council were unable to agree as to what constituted the minor rules, Maha Kassapa finally ruled that no disciplinary rule laid down by the Buddha should be changed, and no new ones should be introduced. No intrinsic reason was given. Maha Kassapa did say one thing, however: "If we changed the rules, people will say that Ven. Gotama's disciples changed the rules even before his funeral fire has ceased burning." At the Council, the Dhamma was divided into various parts and each part was assigned to an Elder and his pupils to commit to memory. The Dhamma was then passed on from teacher to pupil orally. The Dhamma was recited daily by groups of people who often cross check with each other to ensure that no omissions or additions were made. Historians agree that the oral tradition is more reliable than a report written by one person from his memory several years after the event. The Second Council One hundred years later, the Second Council was held to discuss some Vinaya rules. There was no need to change the rules three months after the Parinibbana of the Buddha because little or no political, economic or social changes took place during that short interval. But 100 years later, some monks saw the need to change certain minor rules. The orthodox monks said that nothing should be changed while the others insisted on modifying some rules, Finally, a group of monks left the Council and formed the Mahasanghika - the Great Community. Even though it was called the Mahasanghika, it was not known as Mahayana, And in the Second Council, only matters pertaining to the Vinaya were discussed and no controversy about the Dhamma is reported, The Third Council In the 3rd Century B.C. during the time of Emperor Asoka, the Third Council was held to discuss the differences of opinion among the bhikkhus of different sects. At this Council the differences were not confined to the Vinaya but were also connected with the Dhamma. At the end of this Council, the President of the Council, Moggaliputta Tissa, compiled a book called the Kathavatthu refuting the heretical, false views and theories held by some sects. The teaching approved and accepted by this Council was known as Theravada. The Abhidhamma Pitaka was included at this Council. After the Third Council, Asoka's son, Ven. Mahinda, brought the Tripitaka to Sri Lanka, along with the commentaries that were recited at the Third Council. The texts brought to Sri Lanka were preserved until today without losing a page. The texts were written in Pali which was based on the Magadhi language spoken by the Buddha. There was nothing known as Mahayana at that time. Coming of Mahayana Between the 1st Century B.C. to the 1st Century A.D., the two terms Mahayana and Hinayana appeared in the Saddharma Pundarika Sutra or the Sutra of the Lotus of the Good Law. About the 2nd Century A.D. Mahayana became clearly defined. Nagarjuna developed the Mahayana philosophy of Sunyata and proved that everything is Void in a small text called Madhyamika-karika. About the 4th Century, there were Asanga and Vasubandhu who wrote enormous amount of works on Mahayana. After the 1st Century AD., the Mahayanists took a definite stand and only then the terms of Mahayana and Hinayana were introduced. We must not confuse Hinayana with Theravada because the terms are not synonymous. Theravada Buddhism went to Sri Lanka during the 3rd Century B.C. when there was no Mahayana at all. Hinayana sects developed in India and had an existence independent from the form of Buddhism existing in Sri Lanka. Today there is no Hinayana sect in existence anywhere in the world. Therefore, in 1950 the World Fellowship of Buddhists inaugurated in Colombo unanimously decided that the term Hinayana should be dropped when referring to Buddhism existing today in Sri Lanka, Thailand, Burma, Cambodia, Laos, etc. This is the brief history of Theravada, Mahayana and Hinayana. Mahayana and Theravada Now, what is the difference between Mahayana and Theravada? I have studied Mahayana for many years and the more I study it, the more I find there is hardly any difference between Theravada and Mahayana with regard to the fundamental teachings. - Both accept Sakyamuni Buddha as the Teacher. - The Four Noble Truths are exactly the same in both schools. - The Eightfold Path is exactly the same in both schools. - The Paticca-samuppada or the Dependent Origination is the same in both schools. - Both rejected the idea of a supreme being who created and governed this world. - Both accept Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta and Sila, Samadhi, Panna without any difference. These are the most important teachings of the Buddha and they are all accepted by both schools without question. There are also some points where they differ. An obvious one is the Bodhisattva ideal. Many people say that Mahayana is for the Bodhisattvahood which leads to Buddhahood while Theravada is for Arahantship. I must point out that the Buddha was also an Arahant. Pacceka Buddha is also an Arahant. A disciple can also be an Arahant. The Mahayana texts never use the term Arahant-yana, Arahant Vehicle. They used three terms: Bodhisattvayana, Prateka-Buddhayana, and Sravakayana. In the Theravada tradition these three are called Bodhis. Some people imagine that Theravada is selfish because it teaches that people should seek their own salvation. But how can a selfish person gain Enlightenment? Both schools accept the three Yanas or Bodhis but consider the Bodhisattva ideal as the highest. The Mahayana has created many mystical Bodhisattvas while the Theravada considers a Bodhisattva as a man amongst us who devotes his entire life for the attainment of perfection, ultimately becoming a fully Enlightened Buddha for the welfare of the world, for the happiness of the world. Three Types of Buddhahood There are three types of Buddhahood: the Samma Sambuddha who gains full Enlightenment by his own effort, the Pacceka Buddha who has lesser qualities than the Samma Sambuddha, and the Savaka Buddha who is an Arahant disciple. The attainment of Nibbana between the three types of Buddhahood is exactly the same. The only difference is that the Samma Sambuddha has many more qualities and capacities than the other two. Some people think that Voidness or Sunyata discussed by Nagarjuna is purely a Mahayana teaching. It is based on the idea of Anatta or non-self, on the Paticcasamuppada or the Dependent Origination, found in the original Theravada Pali texts. Once Ananda asked the Buddha, "People say the word Sunya. What is Sunya?" The Buddha replied, "Ananda, there is no self, nor anything pertaining to self in this world. Therefore, the world is empty." This idea was taken by Nagarjuna when he wrote his remarkable book, "Madhyamika Karika". Besides the idea of Sunyata is the concept of the store-consciousness in Mahayana Buddhism which has its seed in the Theravada texts. The Mahayanists have developed it into a deep psychology and philosophy. http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma3/theramaya.html http://buddhism.kalachakranet.org/vehicles.html
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Sorry on copying error Theravada - Mahayana Buddhism Ven. Dr. W. Rahula (From: "Gems of Buddhist Wisdom", Buddhist Missionary Society, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, 1996) Let us discuss a question often asked by many people: What is the difference between Mahayana and Theravada Buddhism? To see things in their proper perspective, let us turn to the history of Buddhism and trace the emergence and development of Mahayana and Theravada Buddhism. The Buddha was born in the 6th Century B.C. After attaining Enlightenment at the age of 35 until his Mahaparinibbana at the age of 80, he spent his life preaching and teaching. He was certainly one of the most energetic man who ever lived: for forty-five years he taught and preached day and night, sleeping for only about 2 hours a day. The Buddha spoke to all kinds of people: kings and princes, Brahmins, farmers, beggars, learned men and ordinary people. His teachings were tailored to the experiences, levels of understanding and mental capacity of his audience. What he taught was called Buddha Vacana, i.e. word of the Buddha. There was nothing called Theravada or Mahayana at that time. After establishing the Order of monks and nuns, the Buddha laid down certain disciplinary rules called the Vinaya for the guidance of the Order. The rest of his teachings were called the Dhamma which included his discourses, sermons to monks, nuns and lay people. The First Council Three months after the Buddha's Mahaparinibbana, his immediate disciples convened a council at Rajagaha. Maha Kassapa, the most respected and elderly monk, presided at the Council. Two very important personalities who specialised in the two different areas - the Dhamma and the Vinaya - were present. One was Ananda, the closest constant companion and disciple of the Buddha for 25 years. Endowed with a remarkable memory, Ananda was able to recite what was spoken by the Buddha. The other personality was Upali who remembered all the Vinaya rules. Only these two sections - the Dhamma and the Vinaya - were recited at the First Council. Though there were no differences of opinion on the Dhamma (no mention of the Abhidhamma) there was some discussion about the Vinaya rules. Before the Buddha's Parinibbana, he had told Ananda that if the Sangha wished to amend or modify some minor rules, they could do so. But on that occasion Ananda was so overpowered with grief because the Buddha was about to die that it did not occur to him to ask the Master what the minor rules were. As the members of the Council were unable to agree as to what constituted the minor rules, Maha Kassapa finally ruled that no disciplinary rule laid down by the Buddha should be changed, and no new ones should be introduced. No intrinsic reason was given. Maha Kassapa did say one thing, however: "If we changed the rules, people will say that Ven. Gotama's disciples changed the rules even before his funeral fire has ceased burning." At the Council, the Dhamma was divided into various parts and each part was assigned to an Elder and his pupils to commit to memory. The Dhamma was then passed on from teacher to pupil orally. The Dhamma was recited daily by groups of people who often cross check with each other to ensure that no omissions or additions were made. Historians agree that the oral tradition is more reliable than a report written by one person from his memory several years after the event. The Second Council One hundred years later, the Second Council was held to discuss some Vinaya rules. There was no need to change the rules three months after the Parinibbana of the Buddha because little or no political, economic or social changes took place during that short interval. But 100 years later, some monks saw the need to change certain minor rules. The orthodox monks said that nothing should be changed while the others insisted on modifying some rules, Finally, a group of monks left the Council and formed the Mahasanghika - the Great Community. Even though it was called the Mahasanghika, it was not known as Mahayana, And in the Second Council, only matters pertaining to the Vinaya were discussed and no controversy about the Dhamma is reported, The Third Council In the 3rd Century B.C. during the time of Emperor Asoka, the Third Council was held to discuss the differences of opinion among the bhikkhus of different sects. At this Council the differences were not confined to the Vinaya but were also connected with the Dhamma. At the end of this Council, the President of the Council, Moggaliputta Tissa, compiled a book called the Kathavatthu refuting the heretical, false views and theories held by some sects. The teaching approved and accepted by this Council was known as Theravada. The Abhidhamma Pitaka was included at this Council. After the Third Council, Asoka's son, Ven. Mahinda, brought the Tripitaka to Sri Lanka, along with the commentaries that were recited at the Third Council. The texts brought to Sri Lanka were preserved until today without losing a page. The texts were written in Pali which was based on the Magadhi language spoken by the Buddha. There was nothing known as Mahayana at that time. Coming of Mahayana Between the 1st Century B.C. to the 1st Century A.D., the two terms Mahayana and Hinayana appeared in the Saddharma Pundarika Sutra or the Sutra of the Lotus of the Good Law. About the 2nd Century A.D. Mahayana became clearly defined. Nagarjuna developed the Mahayana philosophy of Sunyata and proved that everything is Void in a small text called Madhyamika-karika. About the 4th Century, there were Asanga and Vasubandhu who wrote enormous amount of works on Mahayana. After the 1st Century AD., the Mahayanists took a definite stand and only then the terms of Mahayana and Hinayana were introduced. We must not confuse Hinayana with Theravada because the terms are not synonymous. Theravada Buddhism went to Sri Lanka during the 3rd Century B.C. when there was no Mahayana at all. Hinayana sects developed in India and had an existence independent from the form of Buddhism existing in Sri Lanka. Today there is no Hinayana sect in existence anywhere in the world. Therefore, in 1950 the World Fellowship of Buddhists inaugurated in Colombo unanimously decided that the term Hinayana should be dropped when referring to Buddhism existing today in Sri Lanka, Thailand, Burma, Cambodia, Laos, etc. This is the brief history of Theravada, Mahayana and Hinayana. Mahayana and Theravada Now, what is the difference between Mahayana and Theravada? I have studied Mahayana for many years and the more I study it, the more I find there is hardly any difference between Theravada and Mahayana with regard to the fundamental teachings. - Both accept Sakyamuni Buddha as the Teacher. - The Four Noble Truths are exactly the same in both schools. - The Eightfold Path is exactly the same in both schools. - The Paticca-samuppada or the Dependent Origination is the same in both schools. - Both rejected the idea of a supreme being who created and governed this world. - Both accept Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta and Sila, Samadhi, Panna without any difference. These are the most important teachings of the Buddha and they are all accepted by both schools without question. There are also some points where they differ. An obvious one is the Bodhisattva ideal. Many people say that Mahayana is for the Bodhisattvahood which leads to Buddhahood while Theravada is for Arahantship. I must point out that the Buddha was also an Arahant. Pacceka Buddha is also an Arahant. A disciple can also be an Arahant. The Mahayana texts never use the term Arahant-yana, Arahant Vehicle. They used three terms: Bodhisattvayana, Prateka-Buddhayana, and Sravakayana. In the Theravada tradition these three are called Bodhis. Some people imagine that Theravada is selfish because it teaches that people should seek their own salvation. But how can a selfish person gain Enlightenment? Both schools accept the three Yanas or Bodhis but consider the Bodhisattva ideal as the highest. The Mahayana has created many mystical Bodhisattvas while the Theravada considers a Bodhisattva as a man amongst us who devotes his entire life for the attainment of perfection, ultimately becoming a fully Enlightened Buddha for the welfare of the world, for the happiness of the world. Three Types of Buddhahood There are three types of Buddhahood: the Samma Sambuddha who gains full Enlightenment by his own effort, the Pacceka Buddha who has lesser qualities than the Samma Sambuddha, and the Savaka Buddha who is an Arahant disciple. The attainment of Nibbana between the three types of Buddhahood is exactly the same. The only difference is that the Samma Sambuddha has many more qualities and capacities than the other two. Some people think that Voidness or Sunyata discussed by Nagarjuna is purely a Mahayana teaching. It is based on the idea of Anatta or non-self, on the Paticcasamuppada or the Dependent Origination, found in the original Theravada Pali texts. Once Ananda asked the Buddha, "People say the word Sunya. What is Sunya?" The Buddha replied, "Ananda, there is no self, nor anything pertaining to self in this world. Therefore, the world is empty." This idea was taken by Nagarjuna when he wrote his remarkable book, "Madhyamika Karika". Besides the idea of Sunyata is the concept of the store-consciousness in Mahayana Buddhism which has its seed in the Theravada texts. The Mahayanists have developed it into a deep psychology and philosophy. Ven. Dr. W. Rahula
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Hmm... in my opinion...
The book doesn't deal so much with the outer form differences of the various traditions.
It deals mainly with the subtle (erroneous) tendencies that may go unnoticed at the advanced stage of spiritual development.
That is why before the experiences of non-duality, a person reading the book may not fully catch what is being conveyed. This is because before the experience of non-duality, the workings of the 'sense of self' or 'I' is not understood.
Also, when we talk about non-duality, it is an entire band of consciousness with various grades. We are not always in non-dual mode. In fact, to be fully in non-dual presence 24hrs a day is an incredible achievement !!!
When we say a person is enlightened there are actually many grades to it. Some may have just a small glimpse of presence but cannot stabilize. Some may be so stabilized that nothing moves them. All these differences are due to the difference in depths of realisation.
It is very very easy for a person to be thrown out of non-duality or no-self state... even for one who has past beyond the realisation of 'non doership'. Also, very subtle efforting are at work even at the advanced level. The awareness can feel like no duality and yet there is still tension operating. This can be really puzzling. .. an incredible challenge indeed. This are just some examples of subtle energetics but nevertheless very challenging for a practitioner.
This book is helpful as a source of guiding us in recognising these challenging pitfalls and subtle conceptual errors at the advanced stage of realisation.
Just my opinion and sharing.
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Thanks for sharing your opinion.......After I see the word called the rainbow body attainment in your topics,I have some doubt that there is no such word in Buddha Scripture. When we say a person is enlighented , a person must encounter the situation that all the sensation , memory, consciousness and transition of mind totally disappear or stop inside the body for a few minute.Some buddhism beginner compare this situation with sleeping mind.This is not actually sleeping state. This is called knowledge of magga. Magga means knowing of Nibbana. After a few minute, a person will feel the fruit of magga called Phala. The knowledge of magga will eliminate or remove the degree of defilments in the body and mind because knowing of magga is attached to Nibbana. How can we check a person is enlighened or not ? A person can change his mind to Phala mind state or can stay with Phala mind state for a few hours or days depending on his wishes. If a person cannot change his mind to Phala mind state or cannot stay with Phala mind state for a few hours or days on his wishes, we can decide he has not attained the enlighenment. At Buddha times, when the Buddha was free, he always stayed with Phala mind. We found different kind of Phala in Buddha scripture. I will describe it as far as I know At Buddha times, when the Buddhas sometimes encountered the headache, he used the one kind of Phala to remove or to relief the sensation of headache. If Buddha had wishes to stay for infinite years, he could use one kind of Phala to extend the Buddha life to infinite years.But when Buddha reach to 80 years old, he did not use one kind of Phala any more to go to Nibbana. Sometimes , Buddha and Arahart used one kind of Phala ,fourth jhana and fourth Arupa to stop or disappear all the sensation , memory, consciousness and transition of mind for seven days to cling to Nibbana. There is no air breath in the nose for 7 days.The body acted like statue.It is similar with a person is dead for 7 days.After 7 days, all the sensation , memory, consciousness and transition of mind start working. There are the different kind of Phala. ===================================================================== References: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/mahasi/progress.html#ch7.18 18. Attainment of Fruition [go up] While he is thus engaged in noticing, his insight knowledge will gradually grow, and soon will again reach the stage of equanimity about formations. If his power of concentration is still short of perfection, only the equanimity about formations will go on repeating itself. But if his concentration has reached perfection, then, in the case of one who does the insight practice of noticing with a view of attaining only to the first path and fruition, the fruition consciousness of the first path alone reaches cessation of formations by way of the attainment of fruition.46 This occurs in precisely the same way as the path and fruition consciousness that occurred earlier in the consciousness-sequence belonging to the initial attainment of the first path. The only difference here is the capacity of the fruition attainment to last long. One should also set one's mind resolutely upon the further tasks: to be able to repeat the achievement of fruition attainment, to achieve it rapidly, and, at the time of achievement, to abide in it a long time, say for six, ten, fifteen or thirty minutes, or for an hour or more. In one who applies himself to achieving the attainment of fruition, knowledge of arising and passing away will arise at the beginning. Advancing from there in the due sequence, soon the knowledge of equanimity about formations is reached. But when skill in the practice has been acquired, the knowledge of equanimity about formations will arise quickly even after four or five acts of noticing. If the power of concentration has reached perfection, the fruition consciousness will repeatedly become absorbed in cessation by way of fruition attainment. The mind can thus reach absorption even while one is walking up and down, or while taking a meal, and the fruition attainment can remain for any length of time resolved upon. During the fruition attainment, the mind will abide only in the cessation of formations and will not be aware of anything else. When the meditator has thus become skilled in achieving the fruition attainment, he should resolutely set his mind upon the task of attaining to the higher paths and fruitions. What should now be done by one who has set himself that task? Just as before, he should carry out the practice of noticing (anything occurring) at the six sense doors. Hence, the meditator should notice any bodily and mental process that becomes evident to him at the six sense doors. While he is thus engaged, he will see, at the stage of knowledge of arising and passing away, that the first objects consisting of formations appear to him rather coarse, and that his mind is not well concentrated. The development of insight belonging to the higher paths is, in fact, not as easy as that of insight belonging to the fruition attainment already achieved by the meditator. It is in fact somewhat difficult, due to the fact that insight has to be developed anew. It is, however, not so very difficult as it was at the first time when beginning the practice. In a single day, or even in a single hour, he can gain the knowledge of equanimity about formations. This statement is made here, basing it on the experience usually gained by persons of the present day who had to be given guidance from the start and who did not possess particularly strong intelligence. Here it is applied, by inference, to similar types of persons in general. But although equanimity about formations has been attained, if the spiritual faculties47 have not yet reached full maturity, it just goes on repeating itself. Though he who has won (one of the lower) fruitions may be able to enter into it several times within one hour, yet if his spiritual faculties are immature, he cannot attain the next higher path within as much as one day, two, three, or more days. He abides merely in equanimity about formations. If, however, he then directs his mind to reach the fruition already attained, he will reach it perhaps in two or three minutes. When, however, the spiritual faculties are mature, one who carries out the practice of insight for attaining to a higher path will find that immediately after equanimity about formations has reached its culmination, the higher path and fruition arise in the same way as before (i.e., as at the time of the first path and fruition), that is to say, it is preceded by the stages of adaptation and maturity. After the fruition, the stages of reviewing, etc., that follow are also the same as before. Anything else concerning the method of practice for insight and the progress of knowledge right up to arahantship can be understood in precisely the same way as described. Hence there is no need to elaborate it any further.
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Originally posted by sofital:
Thanks for sharing your opinion…....After I see the word called the rainbow body attainment in your topics,I have some doubt that there is no such word in Buddha Scripture.
When we say a person is enlighented , a person must encounter the situation that all the sensation , memory, consciousness and transition of mind totally disappear or stop inside the body for a few minute.Some buddhism beginner compare this situation with sleeping mind.This is not actually sleeping state. This is called knowledge of magga. Magga means knowing of Nibbana. After a few minute, a person will feel the fruit of magga called Phala. The knowledge of magga will eliminate or remove the degree of defilments in the body and mind because knowing of magga is attached to Nibbana.
How can we check a person is enlighened or not ?
A person can change his mind to Phala mind state or can stay with Phala mind state for a few hours or days depending on his wishes.
If a person cannot change his mind to Phala mind state or cannot stay with Phala mind state for a few hours or days on his wishes, we can decide he has not attained the enlighenment.At Buddha times, when the Buddha was free, he always stayed with Phala mind.
We found different kind of Phala in Buddha scripture. I will describe it as far as I know
At Buddha times, when the Buddhas sometimes encountered the headache, he used the one kind of Phala to remove or to relief the sensation of headache.
If Buddha had wishes to stay for infinite years, he could use one kind of Phala to extend the Buddha life to infinite years.But when Buddha reach to 80 years old, he did not use one kind of Phala any more to go to Nibbana.
Sometimes , Buddha and Arahart used one kind of Phala ,fourth jhana and fourth Arupa to stop or disappear all the sensation , memory, consciousness and transition of mind for seven days to cling to Nibbana. There is no air breath in the nose for 7 days.The body acted like statue.It is similar with a person is dead for 7 days.After 7 days, all the sensation , memory, consciousness and transition of mind start working.
There are the different kind of Phala.=====================================================================
References:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/maha….18
18. Attainment of Fruition [go up]While he is thus engaged in noticing, his insight knowledge will gradually grow, and soon will again reach the stage of equanimity about formations. If his power of concentration is still short of perfection, only the equanimity about formations will go on repeating itself. But if his concentration has reached perfection, then, in the case of one who does the insight practice of noticing with a view of attaining only to the first path and fruition, the fruition consciousness of the first path alone reaches cessation of formations by way of the attainment of fruition.46 This occurs in precisely the same way as the path and fruition consciousness that occurred earlier in the consciousness-sequence belonging to the initial attainment of the first path. The only difference here is the capacity of the fruition attainment to last long.
One should also set one’s mind resolutely upon the further tasks: to be able to repeat the achievement of fruition attainment, to achieve it rapidly, and, at the time of achievement, to abide in it a long time, say for six, ten, fifteen or thirty minutes, or for an hour or more.
In one who applies himself to achieving the attainment of fruition, knowledge of arising and passing away will arise at the beginning. Advancing from there in the due sequence, soon the knowledge of equanimity about formations is reached. But when skill in the practice has been acquired, the knowledge of equanimity about formations will arise quickly even after four or five acts of noticing. If the power of concentration has reached perfection, the fruition consciousness will repeatedly become absorbed in cessation by way of fruition attainment. The mind can thus reach absorption even while one is walking up and down, or while taking a meal, and the fruition attainment can remain for any length of time resolved upon. During the fruition attainment, the mind will abide only in the cessation of formations and will not be aware of anything else.
When the meditator has thus become skilled in achieving the fruition attainment, he should resolutely set his mind upon the task of attaining to the higher paths and fruitions. What should now be done by one who has set himself that task? Just as before, he should carry out the practice of noticing (anything occurring) at the six sense doors.
Hence, the meditator should notice any bodily and mental process that becomes evident to him at the six sense doors. While he is thus engaged, he will see, at the stage of knowledge of arising and passing away, that the first objects consisting of formations appear to him rather coarse, and that his mind is not well concentrated. The development of insight belonging to the higher paths is, in fact, not as easy as that of insight belonging to the fruition attainment already achieved by the meditator. It is in fact somewhat difficult, due to the fact that insight has to be developed anew. It is, however, not so very difficult as it was at the first time when beginning the practice. In a single day, or even in a single hour, he can gain the knowledge of equanimity about formations. This statement is made here, basing it on the experience usually gained by persons of the present day who had to be given guidance from the start and who did not possess particularly strong intelligence. Here it is applied, by inference, to similar types of persons in general.
But although equanimity about formations has been attained, if the spiritual faculties47 have not yet reached full maturity, it just goes on repeating itself. Though he who has won (one of the lower) fruitions may be able to enter into it several times within one hour, yet if his spiritual faculties are immature, he cannot attain the next higher path within as much as one day, two, three, or more days. He abides merely in equanimity about formations. If, however, he then directs his mind to reach the fruition already attained, he will reach it perhaps in two or three minutes.
When, however, the spiritual faculties are mature, one who carries out the practice of insight for attaining to a higher path will find that immediately after equanimity about formations has reached its culmination, the higher path and fruition arise in the same way as before (i.e., as at the time of the first path and fruition), that is to say, it is preceded by the stages of adaptation and maturity. After the fruition, the stages of reviewing, etc., that follow are also the same as before.
Anything else concerning the method of practice for insight and the progress of knowledge right up to arahantship can be understood in precisely the same way as described. Hence there is no need to elaborate it any further.
Hi Softital,
Thanks for the sharing.
First off, I have no doubt that what you have quoted and posted is true. I am merely presenting from an alternative angle.
What you have posted is in the form of process. Read from the outside perspective, the descriptions appears to be effortful. However, it all really leads up to the realisations and 'deconditioning' towards effortlessness.
What is it that exert effort? It is 'self'. If meditation is done with a goal in mind...it will result in effort. The meditator will fail to reach the intended result. This is because the 'self' will be generated during the meditation. This analogy is like a snake trying to bite it own tail.
Do you meditate often? Did you notice this as well? Remember Buddha's teaching of 'no-self'?
The cessation of thoughts and sensation cannot be willed or intended. It is the result of a correct application of practices. However, it can be temporarily achieved by a kind of concentration or absorption during meditation.
Anyway, thanks for the interesting sharing. I hope you don't get offended. These are just my opinions and experiences.
regards
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Originally posted by longchen:
Hi Softital,
Thanks for the sharing.
Precisely... What you have posted is in the form of process. Read from the outside perspective, the descriptions appears to be effortful. However, it all really leads up to the realisations and 'deconditioning' towards effortlessness.
What is it that exert effort? It is 'self'. If meditation is done with a goal in mind...it will result in effort. The meditator will fail to reach the intended result. This is because the 'self' will be generated during the meditation. This analogy is like a snake trying to bite it own tail.
Remember Buddha's teaching of 'no-self'?
Anyway, thanks for the interesting sharing. I hope you don't get offended. These are just my opinions and experiences.
The cessation of thoughts and sensation cannot be willed or intended. It is the result of a correct application of practices. However, it can be temporarily achieved by a kind of concentration or absorption during meditation.
regards
Omg! U r a mod here?? -
Originally posted by seotiblizzard:
Omg! U r a mod here??Part-time... heh heh... I work for AEN....
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Originally posted by seotiblizzard:
Omg! U r a mod here??I made him a mod without consulting him... lol
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Originally posted by longchen:
Part-time... heh heh... I work for AEN....
No wonder so busy.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
I made him a mod without consulting him... lol
Good decision. 
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Right. Buddhas teach us no self. Ananda get the first Enlightenment from mirror Dhamma that is related to teaching of no self. No self is the foundation for the first Enlighenment. If we have a self , we cannot achieve the goal. The cessation of sensation,memory, consciousness and transition of mind cannot be intended. The cessation of thoughts and sensation is different from the cessation of sensation,memory,consciousness and transition. We have temporary and permanent achievement. If we can remove the degree of defilements for the moment of awareness of mind or meditation period, this is only achieved for temporary period If we can remove the degree of defilements permanently , this is achieved for escaping from Samara. I like the read and welcome outside perspective and description. If something is wrong from outside perspective and description, I want to point out which one is wrong. Thanks for sharing and opinion at different angles. By the way, what is rainbow body attainment? If you explain it , I can share with you from different angles.
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Originally posted by sofital:
Right. Buddhas teach us no self. Ananda get the first Enlightenment from mirror Dhamma that is related to teaching of no self.
No self is the foundation for the first Enlighenment. If we have a self , we cannot achieve the goal.
The cessation of sensation,memory, consciousness and transition of mind cannot be intended.
The cessation of thoughts and sensation is different from the cessation of sensation,memory,consciousness and transition.
We have temporary and permanent achievement.
If we can remove the degree of defilements for the moment of awareness of mind or meditation period, this is only achieved for temporary period
If we can remove the degree of defilements permanently , this is achieved for escaping from Samara.
I like the read and welcome outside perspective and description. If something is wrong from outside perspective and description, I want to point out which one is wrong.
Thanks for sharing and opinion at different angles.
By the way, what is rainbow body attainment? If you explain it , I can share with you from different angles.Seriously, i am not in the position or state of realisation to talk about rainbow body.
It is an attainment achievable only within Dzogchen which is the highest level vehicle within Tibetan Buddhism. Dzogchen is a practice that is of interest to me (even in this life) because i have been exposed to it in a past life as a Tibetan monk of the Nyingma tradition.
In rainbow body attainment all karmic obscuration are completely dissolved. This result in the material body releasing into its original light essence. So at the time of death, the practitioner's body dissapears from the sight of ordinary beings. At the same time, rainbow colour lights will be seen.
My own understanding and experience is that materiality is only a perception. In non-dual (also known as no-self state), the lack of solidity is experienced in realtime. Also, we begin to see that nothing is existing as a self-existing object/entity. What we feel as materiality or flesh is 'light' (energy) in its essense. It is like in modern physics... there is this theory that energy and matter is interchangeable. However, karmic obscuration or ignorance formed the perception of materiality. 'Material form' as well as 'Subject-object/ self-others' impressions are held in place by karma and ignorance. When the ignorance/karma are completely clear away, the karmic form of the body also dissolve away along with the death of the highly realised person. Rainbow body cannot be acheived when one still have subtle ignorance or erroneous perception. This is just my understanding, please don't take my words literally. It is better to investigate the phenemona by yourself.
By the way, are you from Burma?
regards
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Yes... as my master said, "什么å�«ç�尽定? å¸ˆçˆ¶åœ¨ä¼ æ³•çš„æ—¶å€™è¯´: å�ªæœ‰ä½›çš„光明，自己的身体没有了，佛的圣åƒ�也没有了，就这å�¥è¯�，身心清净，"心境俱ç�，而达解脱"，å�ªè¦�我们常常ä¿�æŒ�è¿™æ ·å�就解脱了。"
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Yes.I'm from Burma.I have some friends who know Dhamma deeply but they don't want to involve in this forum. From my view and knowledge, attachment to light essence cannot dissolve all karmic.The light itself is made of very fine particles. There fine particles are in arising and passing away condition. if practitioner practice the fourth jahana and fourth Arupa, It is not difficult that the practitioner's body dissapears from the sight of ordinary beings.The practitioner can convert the whole body to rainbow color light using his power. Here is the way how to develop the power The practice of Samatha-kammaá¹á¹hÄ�na will develop the mental states of eight lokiya-samÄ�patti (mundane attainments) consisting of the four rÅ«pajhÄ�nas and four rÅ«pa-jhÄ�nas. Repeated exercise of these jhÄ�nic states will bring forth the following:– a) Iddhividha-abhiññÄ� ― Power to become manifold from being one, and from being manifold to become one again. Power to pass without obstruction through walls and mountains, just as if through the air. Power to walk on water without sinking, as if on the earth. Power to dive into the earth and rise up again, just as if in the water. Power to float cross-legged through the air, just as a winged bird. Power to touch the sun and moon with the hand. b) Dibbasota-abhiññÄ� ― Celestial ear, the power to hear sounds both heavenly and human, far and near. c) Cetopariya-abhiññÄ� ― Power to know the mind of others. d) PubbenivÄ�sa-abhiññÄ� ― Power to recollect the incidents of one's past existences. e) Dibbacakkhu-abhiññÄ� ― Celestial eye, the power to see all material forms and colours, whether far off or near, whether great or small. I don't look up all these methods because these cannot help to escape from Samara. If one like to stay with rainbow body, he have to stay in Samara. In this world, there are fake and genuine things found in the market. If one want to buy the genuine diamond , one should know how to choose the genuine one from the fake and genuine diamond . If one want to buy the genuine branded commodity, one should know how to choose genuine one from the fake and genuine branded commodity. I wish the buddhists to choose the genuine Dhamma.
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Originally posted by sofital:
I don’t look up all these methods because these cannot help to escape from Samara. If one like to stay with rainbow body, he have to stay in Samara.
You may have a wrong understanding of samsara and nirvana.
One cannot escape to anywhere. Escape from samsara denotes a fear. Fear is a desire. There is no escape at all. Samsara and nirvana are not places.
He who desire to escape from samsara will not escape. This is the irony and paradox. It is only the ego that desire to escape from samsara. But the ego is not a self at all! So where are you trying to escape to?
Now, you may not be able to detect the working of the 'self'. Further down the road you may see that 'you' never existed as a separate being at all. So who is it that escape from samsara? How can the no-self escape from samsara when it is not a self?
Before you become awaken, you will alway think that you are an individual self striving towards a goal. In this case, the goal is escape from samsara. When you awake, you will discover that all along samsara and nirvana are not places at all. The seeker for enlightenment never existed in the first place... it is just an impression of a self wondering around striving for this and that. This is the cause of samsara... the ignorant wondering around thinking that it is progressing towards a desired state, fullfilment or goal.
As said before, there are many subtle desires that normally go un-noticed. .. including the wish to escape from suffering and samsara.
You should learn to open up your mind and not cling to concepts that you have acquired.
I think you already have a fixed views of things. So, perhaps, we should just leave it as that.
....
Regarding asking whether you are from Burma, I am just curious about the conditions in Burma. I have an ex-student who was from Burma. He is a very nice and polite person. After his graduation, occasionally i still met up with him. He has been working in Singapore for several years. Recently, he brought his sister to Singapore too.
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Samara is the cycles of rebirth and death in 31 planes of existence which are places of Samara.If one can kill all the defilements from body and mind, he can come out from the Samara.The outside of Samara is Nirvana.The desire that want to escape from Samara is not ego. This desire motivate the person to do practice of Dhamma to escape Samara. Before Prince Siddhattha becomes Buddha , he has the desire for searching Eightfold paths to Nirvana. Nirvana don't have exact places.The cessation of sensation, memory, consciousness and transition of mind and body is Nirvana.In nirvana, there is no body and no sensation,memory, cosciousness and transition of mind. We cannot give the name of who in Nirvana.The person who got the fourth Enlightenment stop wondering around striving for this and that. The person who got the Enlightenment has no the ignorant wondering around thinking because he himself will notice and review which defilements still remain in the body and mind.The different kinds of defilements are the causes of Samara. I open up my mind within the scope of Buddha teaching.Thanks for your views.
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Thanks for the discussion :)