The Supreme Source - a fantastic Dzogchen book
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Welcome for discussion:) From the history of Buddhism, how come one major Buddhism group collapse into many Buddhsim group? What is the root cause of collapse into many Buddhism group? I found some differences among each Buddhism group.Is it due to fame, power, ego, attachment to new one, money,wealth ? There are similarities happened in other religion like Christian , Muslim,etc.In Christian, different Christian groups are found. How is your view and opinion?
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Originally posted by longchen:
You may have a wrong understanding of samsara and nirvana.
One cannot escape to anywhere. Escape from samsara denotes a fear. Fear is a desire. There is no escape at all. Samsara and nirvana are not places.
He who desire to escape from samsara will not escape. This is the irony and paradox. It is only the ego that desire to escape from samsara. But the ego is not a self at all! So where are you trying to escape to?
Now, you may not be able to detect the working of the 'self'. Further down the road you may see that 'you' never existed as a separate being at all. So who is it that escape from samsara? How can the no-self escape from samsara when it is not a self?
Before you become awaken, you will alway think that you are an individual self striving towards a goal. In this case, the goal is escape from samsara. When you awake, you will discover that all along samsara and nirvana are not places at all. The seeker for enlightenment never existed in the first place... it is just an impression of a self wondering around striving for this and that. This is the cause of samsara... the ignorant wondering around thinking that it is progressing towards a desired state, fullfilment or goal.
As said before, there are many subtle desires that normally go un-noticed. .. including the wish to escape from suffering and samsara.
You should learn to open up your mind and not cling to concepts that you have acquired.
I think you already have a fixed views of things. So, perhaps, we should just leave it as that.
....
Regarding asking whether you are from Burma, I am just curious about the conditions in Burma. I have an ex-student who was from Burma. He is a very nice and polite person. After his graduation, occasionally i still met up with him. He has been working in Singapore for several years. Recently, he brought his sister to Singapore too.
This is so true...
''Understanding is the fruit of meditation. When we practice deep looking directed towards the heart of reality, we receive help, we receive understanding, we receive the wisdom that makes us free. If there is a deep pain within you, meditate.Meditating is not trying to run away, trying to ignore the presence of the pain, but on the contrary, it is looking at it face-to-face. You have to practice deep looking directed towards the nature of this pain, because for Buddhists, we are joy, but we are also pain; we are understanding, but we are also ignorance. Meditating is not transforming oneself into a battlefield where one side is fighting another, where good fights evil. This is not Buddhist meditation. Buddhist meditation is based on the principle of nonduality. This means that if we are mindfulness, if we are love, we are also ignorance, we are also suffering, and there is no need to suppress anything at all.When the seed of anger manifests on the level of our conscious mind, our immediate awareness, it is because the seed of anger is in the depth of our consciousness, and then we begin to suffer. Our immediate awareness is something like our living room. The task of the meditator is not to chase away or to suppress the energy of anger that is there, but rather to invite an other energy that will be able to care for the anger.You can use the method of mindful breathing to make the seed of this other energy grow inside you. It will then manifest in the form of energy, and this energy will embrace your energy of anger like a mother taking a baby in her arms. Then there is only tenderness, there is no fighting with, or discriminating against, the pain. The purpose of the practice of mindful breathing is to help to give birth to this precious energy called mindfulness and to keep it alive.''( from 'True Love' by Thich Nhat Hanh)Jack Kornfield:
True equanimity is not a withdrawal; it is a balanced engagement with all aspects of life. It is opening to the whole of life with composure and with balance of mind, seeing the nature of all things. Equanimity embraces the loved and the unloved, the agreeable and the disagreeable, and pleasure and pain; it eliminates clinging and aversion.
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A quote by longchen from last year:
Dear Friends,
If you want to experience non-duality, you must completely let go. That means you must not argue with yourself and you must not run away from any sensation, thoughts or feeling that is being felt at that moment.
You must not give yourself excuse to be not what you are at that moment. You must not reason yourself away from the situation that you are in at that particular moment.
If this persist long enough, something 'magical' will be percieved... -
Originally posted by sofital:
Yes.I’m from Burma.I have some friends who know Dhamma deeply but they don’t want to involve in this forum.
From my view and knowledge, attachment to light essence cannot dissolve all karmic.The light itself is made of very fine particles. There fine particles are in arising and passing away condition. if practitioner practice the fourth jahana and fourth Arupa, It is not difficult that the practitioner’s body dissapears from the sight of ordinary beings.The practitioner can convert the whole body to rainbow color light using his power.
Here is the way how to develop the power
The practice of Samatha-kammaá¹á¹hÄ�na will develop the mental states of
eight lokiya-sam�patti (mundane attainments) consisting of the four rūpajh�nas
and four rūpa-jh�nas. Repeated exercise of these jh�nic states will bring
forth the following:–
a) Iddhividha-abhiññÄ� ― Power to become manifold from being one, and
from being manifold to become one again. Power to pass without obstruction
through walls and mountains, just as if through the air. Power to walk on water
without sinking, as if on the earth. Power to dive into the earth and rise up again,
just as if in the water. Power to float cross-legged through the air, just as a
winged bird. Power to touch the sun and moon with the hand.
b) Dibbasota-abhiññÄ� ― Celestial ear, the power to hear sounds both
heavenly and human, far and near.
c) Cetopariya-abhiññÄ� ― Power to know the mind of others.
d) PubbenivÄ�sa-abhiññÄ� ― Power to recollect the incidents of one’s past
existences.
e) Dibbacakkhu-abhiññÄ� ― Celestial eye, the power to see all material
forms and colours, whether far off or near, whether great or small.I don’t look up all these methods because these cannot help to escape from Samara.
If one like to stay with rainbow body, he have to stay in Samara.In this world, there are fake and genuine things found in the market. If one want to buy the genuine diamond , one should know how to choose the genuine one from the fake and genuine diamond . If one want to buy the genuine branded commodity, one should know how to choose genuine one from the fake and genuine branded commodity.
I wish the buddhists to choose the genuine Dhamma.Dzogchen is not a samatha practice, but an insight practice. When correctly practiced they do not lead to Samatha jhanas, but full realisation and liberation. Rainbow body is not the manifestation of supernatural powers, and is a permanent transformation.
More explanation here: http://www.surajamrita.com/bon/buddhahood.html
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Originally posted by sofital:
Welcome for discussion
From the history of Buddhism, how come one major Buddhism group collapse into many Buddhsim group? What is the root cause of collapse into many Buddhism group?
I found some differences among each Buddhism group.Is it due to fame, power, ego, attachment to new one, money,wealth ? There are similarities happened in other religion like Christian , Muslim,etc.In Christian, different Christian groups are found.
How is your view and opinion?There are 84000 dharma doors, teachings, and expedient means to lead one to enlightenment... each suit different people, hence there are many different focus and schools.
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Originally posted by longchen:
You may have a wrong understanding of samsara and nirvana.
One cannot escape to anywhere. Escape from samsara denotes a fear. Fear is a desire. There is no escape at all. Samsara and nirvana are not places.
He who desire to escape from samsara will not escape. This is the irony and paradox. It is only the ego that desire to escape from samsara. But the ego is not a self at all! So where are you trying to escape to?
Now, you may not be able to detect the working of the 'self'. Further down the road you may see that 'you' never existed as a separate being at all. So who is it that escape from samsara? How can the no-self escape from samsara when it is not a self?
Before you become awaken, you will alway think that you are an individual self striving towards a goal. In this case, the goal is escape from samsara. When you awake, you will discover that all along samsara and nirvana are not places at all. The seeker for enlightenment never existed in the first place... it is just an impression of a self wondering around striving for this and that. This is the cause of samsara... the ignorant wondering around thinking that it is progressing towards a desired state, fullfilment or goal.
As said before, there are many subtle desires that normally go un-noticed. .. including the wish to escape from suffering and samsara.
You should learn to open up your mind and not cling to concepts that you have acquired.
I think you already have a fixed views of things. So, perhaps, we should just leave it as that.
....
Regarding asking whether you are from Burma, I am just curious about the conditions in Burma. I have an ex-student who was from Burma. He is a very nice and polite person. After his graduation, occasionally i still met up with him. He has been working in Singapore for several years. Recently, he brought his sister to Singapore too.
Jeff Foster:
In this book, another possibility is suggested: that there is only ever the present appearance of life, with no individual at its core who could ever escape even if they wanted to. Indeed, all attempts to escape merely serve to reinforce suffering and separation. The entire spiritual search is nothing more than a game we play with ourselves, the cosmic entertainment… -
Originally posted by sofital:
Welcome for discussion
From the history of Buddhism, how come one major Buddhism group collapse into many Buddhsim group? What is the root cause of collapse into many Buddhism group?
I found some differences among each Buddhism group.Is it due to fame, power, ego, attachment to new one, money,wealth ? There are similarities happened in other religion like Christian , Muslim,etc.In Christian, different Christian groups are found.
How is your view and opinion?
i think there r there assembly in history to clarify the doubt after death of buddha,then they cannot make agreement ,then they collapse to different schools.IMP,history and culture accumulate upon time.After buddha dead,some new theory emerge on the stage.Anyway, i don't know much of them,but seems chan and pure land ,and tibet buddhism quite popular. -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Dzogchen is not a samatha practice, but an insight practice. When correctly practiced they do not lead to Samatha jhanas, but full realisation and liberation. Rainbow body is not the manifestation of supernatural powers, and is a permanent transformation.
More explanation here: http://www.surajamrita.com/bon/buddhahood.html
You means the whole body and mind transform permanently to nature of light form? -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
A quote by longchen from last year:
Dear Friends,
If you want to experience non-duality, you must completely let go. That means you must not argue with yourself and you must not run away from any sensation, thoughts or feeling that is being felt at that moment.
You must not give yourself excuse to be not what you are at that moment. You must not reason yourself away from the situation that you are in at that particular moment.
If this persist long enough, something 'magical' will be percieved...
This quote is right. -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
There are 84000 dharma doors, teachings, and expedient means to lead one to enlightenment... each suit different people, hence there are many different focus and schools.
Whatever methods is used in 84000 dharma doors, the destination and result of magga and phala must be same. To test for magga and phala result, A person can change his mind to Phala mind state or can stay with Phala mind state for a few hours or days depending on his wishes. If a person cannot change his mind to Phala mind state or cannot stay with Phala mind state for a few hours or days on his wishes, we can decide he has not attained the enlightenment. -
reveal to anatman.maybe a measure to judge whether he is enlightenment .The phala thing seems quite new to me.
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You know, different methods in Buddhism group give the different destination. The different methods in Buddhism group must give the same destination. I don't agree on the result in the material body release into its original light essence. This means destination is different.This method is not found in Vipassan� meditation. It should be under Samatha meditation because a person who got four jhana and four arupas can transform into light essence.
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Originally posted by rokkie:
reveal to anatman.maybe a measure to judge whether he is enlightenment .The phala thing seems quite new to me.
The phala is main measurement tested for whether a person got enlighenment or not. You will find many methods in many Buddhism group. Their destination can be tested with Phala otherwise rejected. -
Originally posted by sofital:
You know, different methods in Buddhism group give the different destination.
The different methods in Buddhism group must give the same destination.I don’t agree on the result in the material body release into its original light essence. This means destination is different.This method is not found in VipassanÄ� meditation. It should be under Samatha meditation because a person who got four jhana and four arupas can transform into light essence.
Dzogchen is not a Samatha meditation, and it is about realising the ultimate nature of reality and experience self liberation. This kind of insight-practice is not the same as the Theravadin Vipassana kind. The Mahayana traditions also practice insight practice but differs slightly.
To be quaitied as a Samatha practice, the practitioner must fixate on a conceptual object, rather than on ultimate reality. In Dzogchen it is not about concentrating at any paritcular points, but experiencing self-liberation. My understanding (may longchen correct me if I'm wrong) is that when the degree of insight of self-liberation is so deep that the remaining karmas are burn out, the material body returns to its rainbow-light essence. Karmic vision is self liberated into the light essence.
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...The particular method of Dzogchen is called the Path of Self-Liberation, and to apply it nothing need be renounced, purified, or transformed. Whatever arises as one's karmic vision is used as the path. The great master Pha Tampa Sangye [South Indian Yogin of the 11 century (ed.)] once said: It is not the circumstances which arise as one's karmic vision that condition a person into the dualistic state; it is a person's own attachment that enables what arises to condition him. If this attachment is to be cut through in the most rapid and effective way, the mind's spontaneous capacity to self-liberate must be brought into play. The term self-liberation should not, however, be taken as implying that there is some 'self' or ego there to be liberated. It is a fundamental assumption...at the Dzogchen level, that all phenomena are void of self-nature. 'Self -Liberation', in the Dzogchen sense, means that whatever manifests in the field of experience of the practitioner is allowed to arise just as it is, without judgement of it as good or bad, beautiful or ugly. And in that same moment, if there is no clinging, or attachment, without effort, or even volition, whatever it is that arises, whether as a thought or as a seemingly external event, automatically liberates itself, by itself, and of itself. Practicing in this way the seeds of the poison tree of dualistic vision never even get a chance to sprout, much less to take root and grow.(p33)
So the practitioner lives his or her life in an ordinary way, without needing any rules other than one's own awareness, always remaining in the primordial state through integrating that state with whatever arises as part of experience -- with absolutely nothing to be seen outwardly to show that one is practicing. This is what is meant by self-liberation, this is what is meant by the name Dzogchen - which means Great Perfection - and this is what is meant by non-dual contemplation, or simply contemplation....
~ Dzogchen teacher, Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche -
A URL on the differences of traditions and practices compared with Dzogchen.
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The material body returns to its rainbow-light essence.Hence Is the destination rainbow-light essence?But how you clarify that light is made of fine particles? What is inside rain-light essence?As you said, the rainbow-light essence is permanent. If it is permanent, how can people cannot see it? Is it invisible form? How you proof that law of conservation energy of light? Energy cannot be destroyed or created .only can be transformed to another.
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If one is expert at Samatha one can develope powers and turn into some astral invisible body, but all these have nothing to do with the rainbow body.
Furthermore one may experience a bright luminous awareness in jhanas but the jhanas are impermanent. The experience of luminosity in fourth jhana does not mean the material body gets dissolved, it is only a temporary suspension of body/mind attachment, and experience a pure bright awareness pervading his body. The body is pretty much still there for all others to see. But in rainbow body, one's material body 'physically' dissolve in front of the observer's eyes back into its light essence.
Nobody has attained rainbow body through samatha -- pls remember that rainbow body is a permanent transformation, one often will undergo clinical death. As in, the material body dissolving into light and never coming back. Only one with insights/realisation into self-liberation and with proper dzogchen practices can begin to develope the rainbow body.
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Why monk and people are creating new Buddhism group based on new theory, methods, meanings ,words, rules, disciplines and definition out of the Buddha teaching? What I study in three baskets of five collection is hand over by from First Buddhist Council to Sixth Buddhist Council. This is the original complete version of Buddha scripture according to Theravada Buddhism. Three Baskets or Five Collections 1. DÄ«gha NikÄ�ya = Collection of Long Discourses 2. Majjhima NikÄ�ya = Collection of Middle-Length Discourses 3. Saṃyutta NikÄ�ya = Collection of Connected (Kindred) Discourses 4. Aá¹…guttara NikÄ�ya = Collection of Numerical Discourses 5. Khuddaka NikÄ�ya = Collection of Miscellaneous Texts - 15/18 Smaller Texts - Vinaya Piá¹aka - Abhidhamma Piá¹aka -Suttanta
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Hmmm... just writing from my understanding only. Not definitive.
For jhana meditation, it is a kind of concentration. Your mind fixate on a object. When one get out of the meditation, the jhana states goes away. With Jhana meditation, insight may not necessarily arise. I did jhana meditation since 1985 and have since stop after realising that it did not produce any results towards enlightenment (for me). Also, in the jhana states, the workings of the self is not understood. There is always an observer (self) watching the changes of states. Also, the various systems have different ways of assessing the jhanas and they do not tally with one another.
From my understanding, vipassana brings about insights, awareness and mindfulness. However, it is working largely and initially at the mental level. The mind mentally notes whatever is occuring.
From my understanding self-liberation (in Dzogchen) is working at a different level from Vipassana. It can only occur after going deep into and stabilizing firmly in no-self state. I am not at the self-liberation level so I can only speculate. My understanding is that arhats MAY NOT necessarily understand self-liberation. It is the stages beyond arhatship and it is working at levels that is not mental or conceptual at all. The liberation is automatic. At the vipassana level, the mindfulness practice is more at the mental level. The depth is different.
Note... I am not an arhat. I am making some assumptions here. But i am already experiencing the arising and automatic release of tensions that is without the need of volitional mental noting.
Just my opinion only.
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Originally posted by sofital:
The material body returns to its rainbow-light essence.Hence Is the destination rainbow-light essence?But how you clarify that light is made of fine particles? What is inside rain-light essence?As you said, the rainbow-light essence is permanent. If it is permanent, how can people cannot see it? Is it invisible form? How you proof that law of conservation energy of light? Energy cannot be destroyed or created .only can be transformed to another.
The reason why we can't see the rainbow body is because of our strong karmic vision that 'confines us' to see 'things' as 'material, existing objects out there' with a fixed inherent existence. It's said those with pure vision can see the rainbow body.
Our karmic vision arises giving rise to the infinite variety of forms that a human being experience, and we become attached to these that we miss its original essence. Just like a dog may see a black and white flower, we may see a red flower, if we were to see the world with a quantum glass we will find mostly (99.999%) space without any perceivable forms. It is our karmic vision that gives rise to the variety of visions which we ignorantly believed to be a solid reality.
If we realised the truth of dependent arising, and hence all perceived phenomena are empty of self-nature/essence/inherent existence, are mere luminous-emptiness appearances, then we can begin to detach ourselves from these visions.
Zen Master Dogen Zenji writes about the difference of viewing water depending upon the karmic conditions of each being in Shobogenzo Sansuikyo (Mountains and Waters Sutra) as follows.
The ways of viewing mountains and waters are different depending upon what kind of beings we are. There are some beings that view water as a jewel. However, this does not mean that they view a jewel [for human beings] as water. How do we see what they view as water? What they see as a jewel is what we see as water. Some beings see water as wondrous flowers. But they do not use flowers [for human beings] as water. Hungry ghosts view water as raging fire or as pus and blood. Dragons and fish view it as a palace or a lofty building. [Some beings] see it as the seven treasures or the mani jewel. [Others] see it as a forest or walls, or as the dharma nature of immaculate liberation, or as the true human body, or as body as the form and mind as the nature. Human beings view it as water. And these [different ways of viewing] are the conditions under which [water] is killed or given life.
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Originally posted by longchen:
Hmmm... just writing from my understanding only. Not definitive.
For jhana meditation, it is a kind of concentration. Your mind fixate on a object. When one get out of the meditation, the jhana states goes away. With Jhana meditation, insight may not necessarily arise. I did jhana meditation since 1985 and have since stop after realising that it did not produce any results towards enlightenment (for me). Also, in the jhana states, the workings of the self is not understood. There is always an observer (self) watching the changes of states. Also, the various systems have different ways of assessing the jhanas and they do not tally with one another.
From my understanding, vipassana brings about awareness and mindfulness. However, it is working largely and initially at the mental level. The mind mentally notes whatever is occuring.
From my understanding self-liberation (in Dzogchen) is working at a different level from Vipassana. It can only occur after going deep into and stabilizing firmly in no-self state. I am not at the self-liberation level so I can only speculate. My understanding is that arhats MAY NOT necessarily understand self-liberation. It is the stages beyond arhatship because it is working at levels that is not mental at all. The liberation is automatic without the arising of the 'self'. At the vipassana level, the mindfulness practice is at the mental level. In another word, the mental noting is through the 'observer self'. A grasping (in the form of a subtle self) is doing the mental noting in the case of vipassana. The depth is different.
Note... I am not an arhat. I am making some assumptions here.
Just my opinion only.
Actually Theravadin insight meditation isn't look from the perspective of an observer, but nevertheless there are differences with the Dzogchen system of practice.
Vipassana
Vipassana (lhag-mthong, Skt. vipashyana) meditation within the sphere of Theravada Buddhism entails noting and watching the arising and falling of moments of conceptual thinking, but not through the “eyes” of an independently existing “me” as the observer. Through this procedure, we realize the impermanence or fleeting nature of conceptual thought and of mental activity in general. We also realize that mental activity occurs without an independent agent “me” either observing it or making it happen.
Dzogchen meditation, in contrast, focuses on the simultaneous arising, abiding, and disappearing of moments of conceptual thinking – not simply noting or watching it. This allows us to recognize first effulgent rigpa – the aspect of rigpa that spontaneously establishes the appearance of simultaneously arising, abiding, and disappearing thoughts. It then allows us to recognize essence rigpa – the aspect of rigpa that serves as the cognitive space underlying every moment of mental activity and allowing for the spontaneous establishment of simultaneously arising, abiding, and disappearing thoughts.
Moreover, vipassana deals only with the grosser levels of mental activity, whereas dzogchen accesses the subtlest level, rigpa.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Actually Theravadin insight meditation isn't look from the perspective of an observer, but nevertheless there are differences with the Dzogchen system of practice.
Vipassana
Vipassana (lhag-mthong, Skt. vipashyana) meditation within the sphere of Theravada Buddhism entails noting and watching the arising and falling of moments of conceptual thinking, but not through the “eyes” of an independently existing “me” as the observer. Through this procedure, we realize the impermanence or fleeting nature of conceptual thought and of mental activity in general. We also realize that mental activity occurs without an independent agent “me” either observing it or making it happen.
Dzogchen meditation, in contrast, focuses on the simultaneous arising, abiding, and disappearing of moments of conceptual thinking – not simply noting or watching it. This allows us to recognize first effulgent rigpa – the aspect of rigpa that spontaneously establishes the appearance of simultaneously arising, abiding, and disappearing thoughts. It then allows us to recognize essence rigpa – the aspect of rigpa that serves as the cognitive space underlying every moment of mental activity and allowing for the spontaneous establishment of simultaneously arising, abiding, and disappearing thoughts.
I see... Thanks for the info and clarification.
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Originally posted by sofital:
Why monk and people are creating new Buddhism group based on new theory, methods, meanings ,words, rules, disciplines and definition out of the Buddha teaching? What I study in three baskets of five collection is hand over by from First Buddhist Council to Sixth Buddhist Council. This is the original complete version of Buddha scripture according to Theravada Buddhism.
Three Baskets or Five Collections
1. Dīgha Nik�ya = Collection of Long Discourses
2. Majjhima Nik�ya = Collection of Middle-Length Discourses
3. Saṃyutta Nik�ya = Collection of Connected (Kindred) Discourses
4. Aṅguttara Nik�ya = Collection of Numerical Discourses
5. Khuddaka NikÄ�ya = Collection of Miscellaneous Texts – 15/18 Smaller Texts
- Vinaya Piá¹aka
- Abhidhamma Piá¹aka
-SuttantaTheravadins may see their own doctrines as being the most original and reliable, but we Mahayanist/Vajrayanist see our own canon as equally valid and authentic. But whatever doctrines you can see the fundamental core of dharma (i.e. 3 dharma seals, emptiness, karma, dependent arising, etc) are present.
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There is no mind and body is made of fine particles at 22 realm.This condition is similar with rainbow body that made of fine particles.Hence Is it still in Samara ? The Fine-Material World (rupa-loka) 22)Unconscious beings (asaññasatta) Only body is present; no mind. Scientists already proof there is a giant black hole in the universe .This giant black hole can attract every light , and fine particles. One day, in our universe, the sun is converted to a giant black hole .How rainbow body can escape from attraction of a black hole?
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Originally posted by sofital:
There is no mind and body is made of fine particles at 22 realm.This condition is similar with rainbow body that made of fine particles.Hence Is it still in Samara ?
The Fine-Material World (rupa-loka)
22)Unconscious beings (asaññasatta) Only body is present; no mind.Scientists already proof there is a giant black hole in the universe .This giant black hole can attract every light , and fine particles. One day, in our universe, the sun is converted to a giant black hole .How rainbow body can escape from attraction of a black hole?
Sofital,
Aiyah......You keep thinking that samsara and nirvana are places. Obviously you never have any awakening experiences at all. All your knowledge are just read from elsewhere.
The unborn Buddha nature has never at all been affected by any apparent destruction in the universe! Not a single bit! This enables the enlightened person to be fearless under all circumstances.
So what if blackhole can suck light. The entire universe is alway in constant change... even right now. You keep thinking that there is a 'self' that needs to escape. And you think that the rainbow body is another 'self' and that this 'self' cannot escape blackhole.
This manner of thinking will not lead you to awakening. It just breed your fear... driving you to seek a solution that is totally safe from all suffering. Right here, right now, know that there is no escape.
Can you understand this... at least conceptually?