An discussion with my gf
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Was discussing with my gf last nite about Envy - a vice choosen randomly by us. Let's say: A friend has a nice bag. And we envy her. We want to have the bag. From a Buddhist point of view: 1) We have to realise that the bag is transient. 2) There is attachment to the bag, attachment to the desire for the bag (?), attachment to self (becos "I" wan to own the bag?) 3) The way to get rid of the envy is to realise that the bag is transient, and there would not be any attachment. Form her point of view: 1) Envy is a feeling that is wrong, pure and simple. 2) We should not be envious. Instead we should be happy that our friend is able to own such a bag. 3) We should work hard for the bag, if we wan it. ----------------------------------------------- In short, she feels that the bag is "not at fault". The problem lies not in the bag. But with yourself that is feeling envious. I agree, I said its the attachment to the bag or the desire for it that is causing the envy. She said that's a roundabout way of looking of things, as envy is a wrong feeling. We should not be feeling envious, its just as simple as that. I wonder if any fellow forumers has any views on our discussion. I am pretty new to Buddhism and may not be able to apply its concepts correctly. Cheers =)
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It's just a bag. Want then buy, don't want then don't buy... What's there to envy and discuss about...??
Maybe I'm just too shallow for such discussions....?? Haiz... Getting OLD....
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Originally posted by Evangelion84:
Was discussing with my gf last nite about Envy – a vice choosen randomly by us.
Let’s say:
A friend has a nice bag. And we envy her. We want to have the bag.
From a Buddhist point of view:
1) We have to realise that the bag is transient.
2) There is attachment to the bag, attachment to the desire for the bag (?), attachment to self (becos “I” wan to own the bag?)
3) The way to get rid of the envy is to realise that the bag is transient, and there would not be any attachment.
Form her point of view:
1) Envy is a feeling that is wrong, pure and simple.
2) We should not be envious. Instead we should be happy that our friend is able to own such a bag.
3) We should work hard for the bag, if we wan it.
In short, she feels that the bag is “not at fault”. The problem lies not in the bag. But with yourself that is feeling envious.
I agree, I said its the attachment to the bag or the desire for it that is causing the envy.
She said that’s a roundabout way of looking of things, as envy is a wrong feeling. We should not be feeling envious, its just as simple as that.
I wonder if any fellow forumers has any views on our discussion. I am pretty new to Buddhism and may not be able to apply its concepts correctly.
Cheers =)
Just joking btw dude... Long time no see.. How ya been...??
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What you say is right. Envy is one of the 5 poisons, the others being greed, hatred, ignorance and pride. Just 'my' thoughts... When envy arise, notice that the discrimination and comparison of 'self' and 'others' have arisen... this is ignorance, and is the cause of envy. We should simply be aware/watchful of our thoughts as they arise and notice that there is no 'self', the thoughts of envy are only based on the false assumption of a self (and others) and separation... but in reality everything is an impersonal happening, including even the thoughts of envy. Utterly no 'I', 'mine' or 'yours'. When we can see this then the thoughts of envy arise and subside on its own without the sense/illusion of self or ownership. There is a letting go of the grasping to those thoughts by seeing the unreality of it (i.e. the impersonal, empty nature). Then there is automatic liberation. There is no inherent 'evil' in envy or anger or greed or any of the 'negative emotions'... the 'problem' and the 'cause of suffering' lies in seeing in terms of a false sense of self. Once we see through that whatever arises, anger, envy, etc are seen to be self-liberating -- arising and subsiding on its own accord impersonally. Nothing is denied, there is a seeing of 'What Is' without getting caught up in self-views.. i.e. anger/envy is arising in a vast centerless space, happening to no one, self-liberating. When we desire for a bag... it is the same thing... objectifying the bag and feeling 'separate' from the 'bag' and thus seeking to 'gain' the bag... the root of pain and separation is again the illusion of an 'I' (who can gain the 'bag'). This is the result of dualistic (subject/object) and 'inherent' (objectifying what we see) views. We should try to see that there is absolutely no 'I' who can 'own' the 'bag'... these thoughts of desiring and "I" getting/owning the bag are again illusory thoughts arising out of the ignorance/belief of an "I" but again, even these thoughts arise without a thinker or a self -- simply stray transient thoughts arising and passing. There is no "I" in reality who can gain or lose things, there is simply what arise momentarily, and impersonally. We constantly relate to our thoughts with the notion of a self (who can gain or lose things) and hence we believe in the reality of our thoughts... By the seeing of its impersonal and empty nature we can gradually let go of our grasping by seeing the unreality of our thoughts and not getting lost in illusions. Our habits of seeing in terms of self and inherency is so strong that it is not easy for us to see through the illusions... constant practicing of mindfulness is needed so that we will not be 'lost' in our false thoughts and remain present/in touch with reality. Working hard to own the bag is fine, we just have to be careful not to fall into the illusion of duality, ownership, of 'inherent existence'... all of which will cause suffering. Thus we should constantly observe/experience reality as it is.
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Originally posted by Evangelion84:
Was discussing with my gf last nite about Envy – a vice choosen randomly by us.
Let’s say:
A friend has a nice bag. And we envy her. We want to have the bag.
From a Buddhist point of view:
1) We have to realise that the bag is transient.
2) There is attachment to the bag, attachment to the desire for the bag (?), attachment to self (becos “I” wan to own the bag?)
3) The way to get rid of the envy is to realise that the bag is transient, and there would not be any attachment.
Form her point of view:
1) Envy is a feeling that is wrong, pure and simple.
2) We should not be envious. Instead we should be happy that our friend is able to own such a bag.
3) We should work hard for the bag, if we wan it.
In short, she feels that the bag is “not at fault”. The problem lies not in the bag. But with yourself that is feeling envious.
I agree, I said its the attachment to the bag or the desire for it that is causing the envy.
She said that’s a roundabout way of looking of things, as envy is a wrong feeling. We should not be feeling envious, its just as simple as that.
I wonder if any fellow forumers has any views on our discussion. I am pretty new to Buddhism and may not be able to apply its concepts correctly.
Cheers =)
There is no right or wrong answer..as there is only one entity at FIRST....finding who is right and wrong is also an attachement...In reality, we see things and we do get attach to it..but that is human nature..as all things now aint ours..we are just borrowing what we own now..the day when we die..these things belongs to someone else..the bag has no fault, neither is your gf nor you..
I hope you get what i mean..
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Originally posted by Devil1976:
Just joking btw dude... Long time no see.. How ya been...??
Haha, fine lor.. I do surf sgforum on a frequently basis, tho i seldom post
Btw, do u happen to mistake mi (Evangelion84) for Evangelion?
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
What you say is right. Envy is one of the 5 poisons, the others being greed, hatred, ignorance and pride.
Just ‘my’ thoughts…
When envy arise, notice that the discrimination and comparison of ‘self’ and ‘others’ have arisen… this is ignorance, and is the cause of envy. We should simply be aware/watchful of our thoughts as they arise and notice that there is no ‘self’, the thoughts of envy are only based on the false assumption of a self (and others) and separation… but in reality everything is an impersonal happening, including even the thoughts of envy.
Utterly no ‘I’, ‘mine’ or ‘yours’. When we can see this then the thoughts of envy arise and subside on its own without the sense/illusion of self or ownership. There is a letting go of the grasping to those thoughts by seeing the unreality of it (i.e. the impersonal, empty nature). Then there is automatic liberation.
There is no inherent ‘evil’ in envy or anger or greed or any of the ‘negative emotions’... the ‘problem’ and the ‘cause of suffering’ lies in seeing in terms of a false sense of self. Once we see through that whatever arises, anger, envy, etc are seen to be self-liberating—arising and subsiding on its own accord impersonally. Nothing is denied, there is a seeing of ‘What Is’ without getting caught up in self-views.. i.e. anger/envy is arising in a vast centerless space, happening to no one, self-liberating.
When we desire for a bag… it is the same thing… objectifying the bag and feeling ‘separate’ from the ‘bag’ and thus seeking to ‘gain’ the bag… the root of pain and separation is again the illusion of an ‘I’ (who can gain the ‘bag’
.
This is the result of dualistic (subject/object) and ‘inherent’
(objectifying what we see) views.We should try to see that there is absolutely no ‘I’ who can ‘own’ the ‘bag’... these thoughts of desiring and “I” getting/owning the bag are again illusory thoughts arising out of the ignorance/belief of an “I” but again, even these thoughts arise without a thinker or a self—simply stray transient thoughts arising and passing. There is no “I” in reality who can gain or lose things, there is simply what arise momentarily, and impersonally.
We constantly relate to our thoughts with the notion of a self (who can gain or lose things) and hence we believe in the reality of our thoughts… By the seeing of its impersonal and empty nature we can gradually let go of our grasping by seeing the unreality of our thoughts and not getting lost in illusions.
Our habits of seeing in terms of self and inherency is so strong that it is not easy for us to see through the illusions… constant practicing of mindfulness is needed so that we will not be ‘lost’ in our false thoughts and remain present/in touch with reality.
Working hard to own the bag is fine, we just have to be careful not to fall into the illusion of duality, ownership, of ‘inherent existence’... all of which will cause suffering. Thus we should constantly observe/experience reality as it is.
Hi AEN,
I do present a some-what-similar argument about the concept of no-self to my gf. However, she feels that there is no need to "destroy" ourselves to get rid of the "bad" feeling of envy. This, in a sense, is escapism. (To which, i answered its not escapism, not to see reality as it truely is.)
A more direct and quicker way would be to realise that envy itself is wrong.
I agree with you that there's no "evil" inherent in envy, and to see what envy really is. =)
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Tell her "so what after you get the bag?"
By holding the handbag on her hand, she is still herself, the handbag is still handbag. Nothing has changed except that she is going to feel happy for a short period, then the happiness will diminish when her level of expectation rise.
When you look at the face of those president, director, they don't feel as happy as those baby and children. -
Originally posted by Display Name:
Tell her "so what after you get the bag?"
By holding the handbag on her hand, she is still herself, the handbag is still handbag. Nothing has changed except that she is going to feel happy for a short period, then the happiness will diminish when her level of expectation rise.
When you look at the face of those president, director, they don't feel as happy as those baby and children.Well said.........
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Originally posted by Evangelion84:
Hi AEN,
I do present a some-what-similar argument about the concept of no-self to my gf. However, she feels that there is no need to "destroy" ourselves to get rid of the "bad" feeling of envy. A more direct and quicker way would be to realise that envy itself is wrong.
I agree with you that there's no "evil" inherent in envy, and to see what envy really is. =)
There is no need to 'destroy' ourselves because all along there is already no self! We just have to drop this long held believe and observe for ourselves, is there really a center of experience, an entity called "me" or a separate person from "me"? Or is "me" actually "just like the "weather" — an ongoing, ever changing stream of ideas, images, memories, projections, likes and dislikes, creations and destructions, which thought keeps calling "I," "me," "Toni," and thereby solidifying what is evanescent?" (also see http://www.springwatercenter.org/teachers/packer/articles/whatisme/)
So whatever arises, envy, thoughts included... rather than judging or suppressing our feelings we should simply experience whatever is as it is without grasping or holding onto a concept. That means envy is not judged (as good or bad) or suppressed but neither is there grasping onto our thoughts. Rather than believing in an "I" we should see for ourselves what is reality. In this way we develope insights, by questioning our beliefs in a silent wondering in Presence.
Then we can see for ourselves what is Real... what is Real is simply this presence/aliveness without boundaries, while the concepts of "me" and "you" along with the discriminations leading to envy hold no reality. Everything is not denied, is included, is part of this aliveness/energy... including envy, but also birds twittering, fans humming, people breathing, coughing — a palpitating energy not confined within the skin. Here it is seen that there is no 'I' apart from whatever arises momentarily and subsiding momentarily, the concept of an 'I' is then gone. The false sense of a center is gone.
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I really like, and so does our moderator Thusness really like, Toni Packer's articles/books on these subjects..
http://www.springwatercenter.org/meditation/
The following words, adapted from a talk given by Toni Packer on August 30, 1998, convey the spirit of meditation at Springwater Center. You can also listen to or download the original talk (MP3).
What a beautiful, quiet morning it is! The faint hum of insects, a cool breeze touching the skin. The breathing, do we feel it? The body pulsating with heart beats, people sitting quietly togeth-er? Is it essentially one whole listening, or are we locked into our private worlds of thinking, re-membering, anticipating?
Is there, for moments at a time, an open listening that does not create divisions among us? Can this humming, breathing, pulsating presence take the place of fantasizing, worrying, and wanting?
We are not asking in order to get rid of wanting or fearing, these cannot be gotten rid of by any conventional means. Our usual attempts to bring about change are analysis, judgment, con-demnation, will power, control, etc. But there is another, utterly simple way of being here.
Right now can there be simple listening, awaring, being present to what appears as sound and feeling and thinking in the midst of open silence? A vast listening space of no preferences and no judgments, no one here to do the listening. It's happening on its own.
Our habitual listening and looking has been thoroughly conditioned by past experiences and innate tendencies which unconsciously select, color, distort what we hear and see. We do not consciously intend to view things and people in the light of our past experiences, our desires and fears. But it happens, automatically, involuntarily.
Having experienced all kinds of pains and pleasures in past relationships, different people today may still evoke the remembrances, sensations and emotions felt ages ago. A network of mem-ories, interconnected throughout the organism, shades our present perceptions and gives rise to inappropriate reactions. These automatic, inappropriate reactions, are not our or anyone else's "fault." They just take place in human beings like you and me according to causes and conditions.
So why are we coming here to this retreat center, a place of spacious beauty and care, of light-ness, and quiet? Why do we come back time and time again? Why do we sit down alone and together, in motionless stillness?
Different answers are given by different traditions, and the practices used to still the mind vary. But here there is no special practice assigned or suggested to people. You may wish to con-tinue with a previously learned practice, or to try something new: simply attending without a known method or purpose. Attending to what is taking place from moment to moment isn't a technique, it is what is and that is all!
There are two aspects of quiet sitting, or meditative inquiry, if you will, which are not mutually exclusive. Description and language divide what is indivisible. So maybe we can keep in mind that what is being described separately right now is one complete whole.
One aspect of meditation is becoming intelligently aware of what we call our conditioning, our habitually unconscious or semi-conscious reactions toward each other and the situations around us. We may think we are aware (in the sense that all human beings are "conscious"), but we are not really in touch with true, undivided awareness. True awareness has no element of judging, analyzing, rejecting, or clinging. No "me"-center from which to observe, rather awareness shedding light, bringing the "me" into fresh view.
Meditation is coming into intimate touch with our habitual reactions of fear, desire, anger, tenderness, or whatever, discovering them freshly, abstaining from automatically judging them good or bad, right or wrong. Beginning to realize that every incident, every encounter with another person, is instantly interpreted according to ingrained prejudices. There is constant comparing ourselves and others to ideal standards of good and bad and right and wrong, that have been internalized long ago.
At a moment of insight there arises a new sense of wondering: "Why do we live bogged down in automatic reactions? Is it the only way of relating in this world?" Will we be seduced into ex-plaining or philosophizing about it, or can we simply stay with what is going on in the light of the question? Genuine interest has a way of kindling energy to illuminate the ways of automatic reactions — for instance immediately getting hurt because of a critical remark, and instantly defending or paying back, and then mulling the whole affair over and over. This is the alienation, the conflict and suffering we all experience.
Sooner or later we may discern the palpable difference between just being here as we are, openly attentive, and the state of entanglement in a web of fantasy about being somewhere else. Can we directly experience this difference without a need to elevate or disparage either state? Every state of being speaks for itself.
The other aspect of quiet meditation is the wonder of coming upon that which is not condi-tioned, that which is beyond fantasy and remembrance. Sitting quietly, without desire and fear, beyond the sense of time, is vast, boundless being, not belonging to me or you. It is free and unattached, shedding light on conditioned being, beholding it and yet not meddling with it. The seeing is the doing. Seeing is change. It is not what is seen that matters, but that there is seeing, revealing what is as it is, in the light of wisdom and compassion too marvelous to comprehend.
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http://www.springwatercenter.org/teachers/packer/articles/whatisme/
What Is The "Me"?
The following article was adapted from a talk by Toni Packer on Day 4 of the August 1997 retreat.
A somber day, isn't it? Dark, cloudy, cool, moist and windy. Amazing, this whole affair of "the weather!" We call it "weather," but what is it really? Wind. Rain. Clouds slowly parting. Not the words spoken about it, but just this darkening, blowing, pounding, wetting, and then lightening up, blue sky appearing amidst darkness, and sunshine sparkling on wet grasses and leaves. In a little while there'll be frost, snow and ice-covers. And then warming again, melting, oozing water everywhere. On an early spring day the dirt road sparkles with streams of wet silver. So — what is "weather" other than this incessant change of earthly conditions and all the human thoughts, feelings, and undertakings influenced by it? Like and dislike. Depression and elation. Creation and destruction. An ongoing, ever changing stream of happenings abiding nowhere. No entity "weather" to be found except in thinking and talking about it.
Now — is there such an entity as "me," "I," "myself?" Or is it just like the "weather" — an ongoing, ever changing stream of ideas, images, memories, projections, likes and dislikes, creations and destructions, which thought keeps calling "I," "me," "Toni," and thereby solidifying what is evanescent? What am I really, truly, and what do I think and believe I am? Are we interested in exploring this amazing affair of "myself" from moment to moment? Is this, maybe, the essence of retreat work? Exploring ourselves minutely beyond the peace and quiet that we are seeking and maybe finding. Coming upon clarity about this deep sense of separation which we call "me," and "other people," without any need to condemn or overcome.
Most human beings take it totally for granted that I am "me," and that "me" is this body, this mind, this knowledge and sense about myself which so obviously feels separate from other people. The language in which we talk to ourselves and to each other inevitably implies separate "me's," and "you's" all the time. All of us talk "I" and "you" talk, we think it, write it, read it, and dream it with rarely any pause. There is incessant reinforcement of the sense of "I," "me," separate from others. Isolated. Insulated. Not understood. How is one to come upon the truth if separation is taken so much for granted, feels so common sense?
The difficulty is not insurmountable. Wholeness, true being, is here all the time, like the sun behind the clouds. Daylight is here in spite of cloud cover.
What makes up the clouds?
Can we begin to realize that we live in conceptual, abstract ideas about ourselves? That we are rarely directly in touch with what actually is going on? Can we realize that thoughts about myself — I am good or bad, I'm liked or disliked — are nothing but thoughts — and that thoughts do not tell us the truth about what we really are? A thought is a thought, and it triggers instant physical reactions, pleasures and pains throughout the bodymind. Physical reactions generate further thoughts and feelings about myself — "I'm suffering," "I'm happy," "I'm no good." Feedback that implies that all this is me, that I have gotten hurt, or somehow feel good about myself, or that I need to defend myself, or get more approval and love from others. When we're protecting ourselves in our daily interrelationships we're not protecting ourselves from flying stones or bomb attacks. It's from words we're taking cover, from gestures, from colorations of voice and innuendo.
Just now words were spoken, ". . . we're protecting ourselves, . . . we're taking cover." In using our common language the implication is constantly created that there is someone real who is protecting and someone real that needs protection.
Is there someone real to be protected from words and gestures, or are we merely living in ideas and stories about me and you, all of it happening on the stage of the on-going audio/video drama of ourselves?
The utmost care and attention is needed to follow the internal drama fairly accurately, dispassionately, in order to express it as it is seen. What we mean by "being made to feel good" or "being hurt" is the internal enhancing of our ongoing me-story, or the puncturing and deflating of it. Enhancement or disturbance of the me-story is accompanied by pleasurable energies or painful feelings and emotions throughout the organism. Either warmth or chill can be felt at the drop of a word evoking memories, feelings, passions. Conscious or unconscious emotional recollection of what happened yesterday or a long ago surge through the body-mind, causing feelings of happiness or sadness, affection or humiliation.
Right now words are being spoken, and they can be followed literally, intellectually. If they are fairly clearly and logically put together they can make sense intellectually. Perhaps at first it's necessary to understand what is going on in us intellectually. But that's not the whole thing. The words that are spoken point to something that may be directly seen and felt, inwardly, as the talk proceeds. And as we go along from moment to moment, now and after the talk is over, (and after retreat) can we experience freshly, wakefully, directly, when hurt or flattery are taking place? What is happening? What is being hurt? And what keeps the hurt going? Can there be some awareness of defenses arising, fear and anger forming, or withdrawal taking place, all accompanied by some kind of storyline? Can the whole drama become increasingly transparent? And, in becoming increasingly transparent, can it be thoroughly questioned? What is it that is being protected? What is it that one thinks got hurt? Me? What is me?
It is amazing. A spark of awareness witnessing one spoken word arousing pleasure or pain all over. Can the connection become clear? The immediacy of it, and no I-entity there directing it, even though we say and believe we are doing all that. But we also say that we don't want to do that. Words and reaction proceed along well-oiled pathways and interconnections. A thought of loss comes up and the solar plexus tightens in pain. Fantasy of love-making occurs and an ocean of pleasure ensues. Who does it? Thought says, "I do!" To whom is it happening? Thought says, "To me of course!" But, where and what is this I, this me, aside from all the thoughts and feelings, the palpitating heart, painful and pleasurable energies circulating throughout the organism? Who could possibly be doing it all with such amazing speed and precision? Thinking about ourselves and triggering physiological reactions take time, but present awareness brings the whole drama to light instantly. Everything is happening on its own. No one is directing the show!
Right this moment wind is storming, branches are creaking and leaves quivering. It's all here in the listening — but whose listening is it? Mine? Yours? We say, "I'm listening" or, "I cannot listen as well as you do" and these words befuddle the mind with feelings and emotions learned long ago. You may be protesting that "my hearing isn't yours. Your body isn't mine." We have thought like that for eons and behave accordingly, but presently, can there be just the sound of swaying trees and rustling leaves and fresh air blowing through the window cooling the skin? It's not happening to anyone. It's simply present for all of us, isn't it?
Do I sound as though I'm trying to convince you of something? The passion arising in trying to communicate simply, clearly, may be misunderstood for a desire to influence people. That's not the case. There is just the description of what is happening here for all of us. Nothing to be sold or bought. Can we simply listen and test out on our own what is being offered for exploration from moment to moment?
What is the "me" that gets hurt or attracted, flattered, time and time again, the world over? In psychological terms we say that we are identified with ourselves. In spiritual language we say, that we are attached to ourselves. What is this "ourselves?" Is it feeling myself existing, knowing what I am, having lots of recollections about myself — all the ideas and pictures and feelings about myself strung together in a coherent story? And knowing this story very well — multitudes of memories, some added, some dropped, all inter-connected — what I am, how I look, what my abilities and disabilities are, my education, my family, my name, my likes and dislikes, opinions, beliefs, etc., etc. The identification with all of that, meaning, "This is what I am." And the attachment to it, meaning, "I can't let go of it."
Let's go beyond concepts and look directly into what we mean by them. If one says, "I'm identified with my family name," what does that mean? Let me give an example. As a growing child I was very much identified with my last name because it was my father's and he was famous — so I was told. I liked to tell others about my father's scientific achievements to garner respect and pleasurable feelings for myself by impressing friends. I felt admiration through other people's eyes which may not even have been there. It may have been projected. Perhaps some people even felt, "What a bore she is!" On the entrance door to our apartment there was a little polished brass sign with my father's name on it and his titles: Professor, Doctor Phil. The Phil impressed me particularly, because I thought it meant that my father was a philosopher, which he was not. I must have had the idea that a philosopher was a particularly imposing individual. So I told some of my friends about it and brought them to look at the little brass sign at the door. This is one meaning of identification — enhancing one's sense of self by incorporating the ideas about other individuals or groups, or one's possessions, achievements, transgressions — anything — and feeling that all of this is "me." Feeling important about oneself generates amazing, addictive energies.
To give another example from the past: I became very identified with my half-Jewish descent. Not openly in Germany, where I mostly tried to hide it rather than display it, but later on after the war ended, telling people of our family's fate, and finding welcome attention, instant sympathy, and nourishing interest in the story. One can become quite addicted to making the story of one's life impressive to others and to oneself, and feed on the energies aroused by that. So that's a bit of what identification and attachment are about. And when that is disturbed by someone not buying into it, contesting it or questioning it altogether, there is sudden insecurity, physical discomfort, anger, fear, hurt, whatever.
Becoming a member of the Zen Center and engaging in spiritual practice, I realized one day that I had not been talking about my background in a long while. And now, when somebody brings it up — sometimes an interviewer will ask me to talk about it — it feels like so much bother and effort. Why delve into old stuff? I want to talk about listening, the wind, and the birds. [Laughter] Are you listening too, interviewer? Or are you more interested in identities and stories?
At times people bring up the question about why I don't call myself a teacher when I'm so obviously engaged in teaching. Somebody actually brought it up this morning — the projections and mental as well as psychological associations aroused in waiting outside the meeting room and then entering nervously with a pounding heart. The images of teacher and student offering themselves automatically like clothes to put on and roles to play in these clothes. In giving talks and meeting with people the student-teacher imagery is not there — it belongs to a different level of existence. If images do come up they're in the way like clouds hiding the sun. Relating without images is the freshest, freest thing in the universe.
So, what am I and what are you — what are we with- out images clothing and hiding our true being? It's un-image-inable, isn't it? And yet there's the sound of wind blowing, trees shaking, crows cawing, woodwork creaking, breath flowing without need for any thoughts. Thoughts are grafted on top of what's actually going on right now, and in that grafted world we happen to spend most of our lives.
And yet, every once in a while, whether one does spiritual work or not, meditating or not, the real world shines wondrously through everything. What is it when words fall silent? When there is no knowing? When there is no listener and yet there is listening, awaring, without any separation?
A moment during a visit with my parents in Switzerland comes to mind. I had always had a difficult relationship with my mother. I was very afraid of her. She was a very passionate woman with lots of anger. But also love. Once during that visit I saw her standing in the dining room facing me. She was just standing there, and for no known reason or cause I suddenly saw her without the past. There was no image of her, and also no idea of what she saw in me. All that was gone. There was nothing left except pure love for this woman. Such beauty shone out of her. And our relationship changed, there was a new closeness. It just happened.
Someone said that seeing a shattered image caused grief. But the shattering of self-image need not cause suffering. Truly seeing that the "me" is nothing but a habitual mental construct is freeing beyond imagination.
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Originally posted by Evangelion84:
Was discussing with my gf last nite about Envy – a vice choosen randomly by us.
Let’s say:
A friend has a nice bag. And we envy her. We want to have the bag.
From a Buddhist point of view:
1) We have to realise that the bag is transient.
2) There is attachment to the bag, attachment to the desire for the bag (?), attachment to self (becos “I” wan to own the bag?)
3) The way to get rid of the envy is to realise that the bag is transient, and there would not be any attachment.
Form her point of view:
1) Envy is a feeling that is wrong, pure and simple.
2) We should not be envious. Instead we should be happy that our friend is able to own such a bag.
3) We should work hard for the bag, if we wan it.
In short, she feels that the bag is “not at fault”. The problem lies not in the bag. But with yourself that is feeling envious.
I agree, I said its the attachment to the bag or the desire for it that is causing the envy.
She said that’s a roundabout way of looking of things, as envy is a wrong feeling. We should not be feeling envious, its just as simple as that.
I wonder if any fellow forumers has any views on our discussion. I am pretty new to Buddhism and may not be able to apply its concepts correctly.
Cheers =)
Actually ur gf POV is kind of buddhism.Sometime, we can be not envious of someone. Well, look at the situation in another way, we could feel happy for him/her and be motivated to work for the bag.
Envy can give rise to ill-will intention. Some people are so envious that they harbour ill-will intention and carry out unwholesome action based on the ill-will thought.
By constantly craving for objects arise from the notion of pure greed, they will never be satisfied with what they have had. As a result, they spend their attention and energy chasing happiness, and not appreciating with what they have had or what is of real importance.. such as their friends, family etc.
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As times goes by I realise that buddha meant more when he said be detached from amterial things u can be poor but very attached similarly a rich man can be more detached it's all in the mind and heart
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Originally posted by Evangelion84:
Haha, fine lor.. I do surf sgforum on a frequently basis, tho i seldom post
Btw, do u happen to mistake mi (Evangelion84) for Evangelion?
Oops.. Have I met you before in person....??
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why bout the bag also need to think so much ???
IF u got much money, just buy it, If u wanna save .. then dun... why need to see BUddhist point or anything?
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It is good that your gf is able to realise it in a quick way that it is wrong to be envious. So why need to go around the bush? Because there are times when events and things that happen, it is very subtle and not so obvious. So we may need to go beating round every bush just to find the root cause . I would prefer to call this method of beating round the bush, contemplation.
Like wat Zarks had said, if u have the money then buy, if u wanna save, then save. But here, it will depend on if the item really brings one happiness or the money saved will come to of great use one day. It is difficult to see the ultimate reality in things and we as sentient beings are quite short-sighted. We can't even tell if buying the bad is good or saving is good.
The most ironic part is that everyone of us seek happiness, but we keep doing things, acheiving goals that are pretty mundane and the happiness is really temporal. We are beating around the bush everyday as we are only able to see immediate happiness. True happiness comes from a peaceful mind and a mind that is at ease.
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Originally posted by oldkid:
It is good that your gf is able to realise it in a quick way that it is wrong to be envious. So why need to go around the bush? Because there are times when events and things that happen, it is very subtle and not so obvious. So we may need to go beating round every bush just to find the root cause . I would prefer to call this method of beating round the bush, contemplation.
Like wat Zarks had said, if u have the money then buy, if u wanna save, then save. But here, it will depend on if the item really brings one happiness or the money saved will come to of great use one day. It is difficult to see the ultimate reality in things and we as sentient beings are quite short-sighted. We can't even tell if buying the bad is good or saving is good.
The most ironic part is that everyone of us seek happiness, but we keep doing things, acheiving goals that are pretty mundane and the happiness is really temporal. We are beating around the bush everyday as we are only able to see immediate happiness. True happiness comes from a peaceful mind and a mind that is at ease.
Agreed...SImple things...remain as simple things...simple things becomes complicated things..then only confuse yourself...Dharma are applicatable things...need not be too therotical...even you have great knowledge...practically you still need to apply....
It s like when you are young you study for grades..but when you start to work..you find what you study is not very applicatable...because you tend to expose yourself to new things..and with the school knowledge you have this will speed up your understanding when you expose to such new things in society...sometimes...it is good to be more flexi...
If you continue to debate with your gf..then it might lead to more misunderstanding..or this might hinder you a few days...just relex...at times you might not be the right spoke person for this issue..she might encounter someone who could bring her to more insight..likewise you will too..there is no wrong or right at first..both are of one entity..
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sometimes i think, we humans just made simple things become more complicated until we become confused of what we really want..
Humans have the ability to think but its very hard to think whats right or wrong since we have feeling that can affect our decision.. Being human is easy, but choosing the right or wrong is always difficult even if one is already adult ... sometimes i think that its hard to be human when all actions will determine whether you're a successful person or just plain normal person.
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dharma teach drop things.But in secular world we have to accumulate things
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Originally posted by rokkie:
dharma teach drop things.But in secular world we have to accumulate things
They are not contradictory!
Questioner: I find that I am so attached to people and material things, do i need to give these up to experience Self?
Vishrant : ( laughter )For me it has been an ongoing adventure of seeing attachments and gleefully letting them go . It has clearly been seen that any attachment is a form of imprisonment . So as these latent tendencies of the mind raise themselves you have the opportunity for freedom . There is no need to get rid of things just let the attachment to them go .
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Originally posted by rokkie:
dharma teach drop things.But in secular world we have to accumulate things
If there is no attachment how are you going to learn dharma...then what are the things you need to drop...and how to let go..you need to see the unreal and find the real....which is your true nature self..For non working adults in the society they have less things to worry...when you grow older like Zark said..you actually accumulate more things...more attachment, unless you would want to lead a monolistic life....Theories are theories...important lies in practical.....I would say...societies is changing...the X generation will have more attachment....my days no PSP...now PSP/PS3.. blah blah..3G phone...more n more things are coming up...especially at work...even more things you will see and experience...
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I find such thread quite enlightening. Discussion such as this could train one to contemplate and to stimulate deeper thinking. From a third party perspective, it also good way to learn by and from sharing of knowledge.
I think i also am envious of someone before. It gives me tremendous suffering and i realise that i'm such a fool to pay my peace of mind over him. I could practise metta and wish the person well and happy full-heartedly. Perhaps in his past life, he has been cultivating, practise giving and due to some other karmic reasons, he has the fu bao to enjoy all this while I don't have the fu bao becos i have been suffering due to my self-created suffering, i.e by envying him and wanting the bag.. yet i can't have it.
Like what old kid says, such things gives temporal happiness. Though it feels good to own a nice bag but after a while, the quality of the bag will also fade off. The cycle of fashion could change and before you know it, it is time to change a new bag! What happens to this desire for the bag ? What happen if you can buy the bag ? Immediate temporary happiness. Sometime, people fear the loss of something precious after getting ( well, maybe not so serious for a bag ha ha ) Thus we must learn not to be too zi zuo when we can't have it or when it is time for us to forgo somethings.
Like what Display name has mentioned..btw well said there. The bag is just a bag. She is still herself before and after she own the bag. Similarly, someone can be happy with or without the bag.
Some Food for thought:
A quote from Venerable Manko:
Our selfishness is the root of all the world's wars and conflicts. Man can be greedy. We often want and covet things, even those which do not belong to us. We can also be self-centred, we sometimes think ourselves better than and more superior to others. We cannot tolerate opinions different from ours. These can lead to clashes.
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Originally posted by rokkie:
dharma teach drop things.But in secular world we have to accumulate things
Other than saving money for rainy days, as a buddhist, it could be good to practise the noble eightfold path and participate dharma activity to accumulate merits/ I could see dharma activities as a form of enhancing faith and cultivation.Life is very short, fragile. Death can be fast, quick or slow. It can happen anywhere, tml, the day after or 5 minutes after reading this msg. We can't bring wealth and other physical things that we have cherish into death.
Btw Bodhi hut put it quite well.. without attachment, how could we learn the Dharma. I think this is perhaps one of the Noble truth. Similarly without suffering, there couldn't be a need for enlightenment.
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Hi Isis long time no see, thanks for the sharing :) Free to come to my jiang tang this sat? Will be playing my taiwan teacher vcd.
Anyway just found something, excerpts from Dealing with Jealousy
The Deceptive Appearances Underlying Jealousy and Envy
As we have seen, jealousy is the inability to bear someone else’s achievement in an area that we exaggerate the importance of, for instance his or her financial success. Envious of it, we wish that we could achieve it instead. We also have seen the variation of this, which occurs when someone receives something from someone, such as love or affection. We wish that we could receive it instead.
This disturbing emotion derives from two deceptive appearances that, because of confusion and just not knowing how things exist, our minds create and project. The first is the dualistic appearance of (1) a seemingly concrete "me" who inherently deserves to achieve or receive something, but did not, and (2) a seemingly concrete "you" who inherently did not deserve to get it. Unconsciously, we feel that the world owes us something and it is unfair when others get it instead. We divide the world into two solid categories: "losers" and "winners," and imagine that people truly exist and are findable inside the boxes of these seemingly solid true categories. Then we put ourselves in the solid permanent category of "loser" and we put the other person in the solid permanent category of "winner." We might even put everyone in the winners’ box, except ourselves. Not only do we feel resentment, we feel doomed. This leads to fixation on the painful thought, "poor me."
Naivety about behavioral cause and effect usually accompanies jealousy and envy. For example, we do not understand and even deny that the person who received a promotion or affection did anything to earn or deserve it. Moreover, we feel that we should get it without having to do anything to bring it about. Alternatively, we feel that we did do a lot, but still did not get the reward. Our minds thus create a second deceptive appearance and project it. Our confused minds make things appear to happen for no reason at all, or for only one reason: what we alone did.
Deconstructing Deceptive Appearances
We need to deconstruct these two deceptive appearances. Our cultures might have taught us that the driving principle inherent in the world of living beings is competition: the drive to win, survival of the fittest. But that premise might not be true. Nevertheless, if we have accepted it, we then believe that the world is inherently divided, by its very nature, into an absolute dichotomy of winners and losers. Consequently, we perceive the world in the fixed conceptual categories of winners and losers, and of course view ourselves with the same conceptual framework.
Although these concepts of winners, losers, and competition may be useful for describing evolution, we need to realize that they are only arbitrary mental constructions. "Winner" and "loser" are only mental labels. They are convenient mental categories used to describe certain events, such as coming in first in a race, getting a promotion at work instead of someone else getting it, or losing a client or student to someone else. We could just as easily divide people into the categories of "nice persons" and "not nice persons," depending on how we define "nice."
When we see that all such dualistic sets of categories are merely mentally constructed, we start to realize that there is nothing inherent on the side of "me" or "you" that locks us into solid categories. It is not that we are basically losers, inherently, and, in thinking of ourselves as losers, we have finally discovered the truth – the real "me" is a loser. Poor "me." Rather, we have many other qualities besides losing a client to someone else, so why dwell on that one as if that were the real "me."
Furthermore, it is only because of our limited minds and preoccupation with thinking "poor ‘me’" and "you bastard ‘you,’" that it seems like success and failure, gain and loss, happen for no reasons at all, or for irrelevant reasons. That is why we think that what happened to us was unfair. What happens in the universe, however, happens because of a huge network of cause and effect. So many things affect what happens to us and to others, it is beyond our imaginations to include every factor.
When we deconstruct these two deceptive appearances (winners and losers, and things happening for no good reason) and stop projecting them, we relax our feelings of injustice. Beneath our jealousy is merely awareness of what has been accomplished, what has happened. We lost a client to someone else and now someone else has this client. This makes us aware of a goal to achieve. If we do not begrudge someone else for achieving or receiving it, we can perhaps learn how the person accomplished the feat. This enables us to see how to accomplish it ourselves. We only feel jealous because of overlaying this awareness with dualistic appearances and concrete identities.