My personal comments on Chuang Tzu, Taoism, Buddhism
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Chuang Tzu also talks about letting go of the 'self'/forgetting the self [dropping all concepts, sense of personality and fundamentally all constriction to the body/mind or the illusory sense of a center or a separate observer, experiencer or doer apart from observed/experience/deed] and 'surrendering to the sequence of things' through non-doing. It is also realising and surrendering to the 'force' of spontaneity, self-so, like the Tao/Buddha-Nature or the vitality/intelligence/luminous-awareness that allows you to move and walk but such action is not done by a 'doer' -- like when walking there is just walking without thinking about it or thinking "left foot" "right foot" -- everything is just natural, 'non-dual' and 'non-volitional' -- it is simply a mere happening. That is non-action (wu wei). Its a completely surrendering to whatever appears in that moment (a.k.a "the sequence of things") that 'self' and 'changes of life' are forgotten, there is no 'continuity of an entity', only fingers typing on keyboard, sound arising, the pure suchness of transiency. No movement, no coming from, no going to, only thus. Completely still yet ever flowing. Thusness just writes it perfectly: "In non-dual experience, the true face of impermanence nature is experienced as happening without movement, change without going anywhere. This is the “what is” of impermanence. It is just so." Surrendering into nothingness, void of self, and everything is simply 'self-so'.
Thusness:
Unmanifested is the manifestation,
The no-thing of everything,
Completely still yet ever flowing,
This is the spontaneous arising nature of the source.
Simply Self-So.
Use self-so to overcome conceptualization.
Dwell completely into the incredible realness of the phenomenal world.----
Chuang Tzu:
"Besides, we all talk of 'me.' How do you know what is this 'me' that we speak of? You dream you are a bird, and soar to heaven, or dream you are a fish, and dive into the ocean's depths. And you cannot tell whether the man now speaking is awake or in a dream. A man feels a pleasurable sensation before he smiles, and smiles before he thinks how he ought to smile. Resign yourself to the sequence of things, forgetting the changes of life, and you shall enter into the pure, the divine, the One."
----Just found another quote by Thusness, so nicely said!
"http://now-for-you.com/viewtopic.php?t=2470&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45
Yes it is and the power of propensities is grossly underestimated. The momentum resulted in creating separation and subtle intentionality. Just don't get too 'stilled'... big grin Even stillness is movement. Just that movement is effortless and spontaneous. It is the sensation as if nothing is moving due to effortlessness and spontaneity. In essence, everything flows, nothing remains."
I have glimpses of "forgetting self" and "forgetting changes", surrendering to spontaneity and it's like being the flow without movement or volition. But to forget and surrender into no-self (as in void of self, not refering to the dharma seal) is not that easy, takes practice. The tendency to grasp and abide is strong.
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so what is real is buddhism?if everything is unreal,then everything is real,because the word real only come in effect with the comparasion with unreal
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Originally posted by rokkie:
so what is real is buddhism?if everything is unreal,then everything is real,because the word real only come in effect with the comparasion with unreal
Hi Rokkie,
Actually all these words are very clumbersome. And I am not a good explaner.
The experience is much more direct.
I invite you to experience no-self and no-solidity for yourself. :)
To help you break the belief of solidity and the absolute-ness of what we see... you may want to consider about this:
As human beings we see in term of a range of colour. Other types of mammals see in black and white... they are colour blind. To the animal, 'colour' never existed at all. Since young, they never see colour.
To us humans, the grass is green. To the animal, the grass is grey. So, is the human or the animal see the correct grass. Is the grass really green or is it gray? If it is green, is the green-ness belonging to the grass or is it just the colour that is seen by the vision of a human?
Another thing to consider... There are so many things that we see. All of them are positioned in some place wthin 3D space. What if 'space' is only seen by the eye. And behind the eyesight vision there is no 'space'.
You play a video game... the game got 3D space. But it is not really 3D space. You are playing the game on a flat screen! Imagine the flat LCD screen is your eye sight vision...
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thx for the comprehensive explanation.i remember i have read up some material talking about ,buddha teach noself ,it's because he don't want ppl to be attached to self.So i was wondering ,is it only a expedient way for teaching.Of course many civilisation teach no self ,like taosim.At my stage i still think alaya conciouseness is true.
And i was wondering one question why buddhism fade away in india but flourishing in china ,some scholar have point out ,chinese ppl like talk all these cumbersome and deep theory.So mahayana is quite popular in china which don't emphasize on practice hard ,but suddenly awaken.
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Originally posted by rokkie:
thx for the comprehensive explanation.i remember i have read up some material talking about ,buddha teach noself ,it's because he don't want ppl to be attached to self.So i was wondering ,is it only a expedient way for teaching.Of course many civilisation teach no self ,like taosim.At my stage i still think alaya conciouseness is true.
And i was wondering one question why buddhism fade away in india but flourishing in china ,some scholar have point out ,chinese ppl like talk all these cumbersome and deep theory.So mahayana is quite popular in china which don't emphasize on practice hard ,but suddenly awaken.
All teachings by Buddha is an expedient means, but it may not be what you are thinking of. That is, No-Self is not a teaching just so that you can "let go of self"... it is not about letting go of self, but realising the nature of reality that there is No Self all along, already is so... that means the dualistic way we experience, as a separate self, experiencer, doer, observer, is an illusion.
This is the seal of no-self and can be realized and experienced in all moments; not just a mere concept.
But it is not a stage of achievement, it is not about "attaining non-attachment" or "dropping ego"... it is the thoroughness of seeing through the illusionary views of the sense of self, the entire mechanism that causes the split and the mechanism of how it ‘blinds’.
Also Taoism may teach no-self but it may have a different meaning, in the case of Chuang Tzu... for Chuang Tzu it is more like forgetting self (wang wo)... he wasn't talking about it as a dharma seal, a characteristic of reality. It is an important practice for us (especially prior to realisation)... but for a non dualist that has gained sufficient stability after realisation of the pathless non-dual reality, practice takes a very different role.
After knowing the real cause and conditions (the entire mechanism that causes the split and the mechanism of how it ‘blinds’), a non-dualist cannot resort back to a dualistic approach towards liberation and practice and meditation take very different roles. It becomes instant, dynamic, spontaneous and direct.
No-Self is seen as not a stage to enter, but is an ever-present nature of reality. All along, thought thinks, sound hears, scenery sees, there is no separate seer, hearer, thinker, doer, etc. The realisation of this is enlightenment.
p.s. I have explained this in the first post but it was kinda long and the way I wrote maybe difficult to understand so thanks for letting me clarify this again.
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Originally posted by longchen:
To us humans, the grass is green. To the animal, the grass is grey. So, is the human or the animal see the correct grass. Is the grass really green or is it gray? If it is green, is the green-ness belonging to the grass or is it just the colour that is seen by the vision of a human?
That is a good one. :)
Are you able to elaborate what people meant by time doesn't exist? -
Originally posted by rokkie:
thx for the comprehensive explanation.i remember i have read up some material talking about ,buddha teach noself ,it's because he don't want ppl to be attached to self.So i was wondering ,is it only a expedient way for teaching.Of course many civilisation teach no self ,like taosim.At my stage i still think alaya conciouseness is true.
And i was wondering one question why buddhism fade away in india but flourishing in china ,some scholar have point out ,chinese ppl like talk all these cumbersome and deep theory.So mahayana is quite popular in china which don't emphasize on practice hard ,but suddenly awaken.
Why do you think alaya vijnana is real?
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BTW to continue from my previous post... I said that No-Self in Buddhism is about realising an ever-present nature of reality, then why is the practice of dropping self and concepts needed? In fact it is very important for us...
As Thusness have explained,
"The first 3 stages are before the arising of non-dual insight and the purpose of sustainability is to create sufficient gap between 2 moments of thoughts to allow the sensation of contrast between conceptual/non-conceptuality for the thinking mind to realize the possibility of going pre-symbolic thereby loosening its stubborn grips of a dualistic framework.
Sustained bare attention also gave rise to the realization that ‘inner’, ‘outer’, ‘space’, ‘time’ and even ‘body’ and ‘mind’ are all mere constructs. Freeing from these constructs, also give rise to the condition for non-dual insight to arise.
For the first 3 stages, practice takes the form of striving towards a certain stage of perfection whereas stages 4 onwards, practice moves from ‘efforting’ to natural luminosity and spontaneity."As Zen Master Huang Po said...
To make use of your minds to think conceptually is to leave the substance [of Mind, Buddha] and attach yourselves to form.
The Mind is no mind of conceptual thought, and it is completely detached from form.... There are those who, upon hearing this teaching, rid themselves of conceptual thought in a flash.... But whether they transcend conceptual thought by a longer or shorter way, the result is a state of BEING: there is no practicing and no action of realizing. That there is nothing which can be attained is not idle talk; it is the truth.
If you would spend all your time - walking, standing, sitting or lying down - learning to halt the concept-forming activities of your own mind, you could be sure of ultimately attaining the goal.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Why do you think alaya vijnana is real?
at my stage i take that opinion,i think alaya vijnana already good enough for ppl deal with the daily life.Achieve that u could be smart.peaceful.i really don't think ppl could jump out of samsara ,and i have no intention to do that. -
Originally posted by rokkie:
at my stage i take that opinion,i think alaya vijnana already good enough for ppl deal with the daily life.Achieve that u could be smart.peaceful.i really don't think ppl could jump out of samsara ,and i have no intention to do that.Alaya Vijnana is just a designation refering to the storehouse of afflictions and actions/karma producing delusory defiled states of our mind, the only way to deal with it is to transform it with insight/awakening so that it transform into the great round mirror wisdom. When the traces are exhausted, there is no more 'alayavijnana'.
Alaya Vijnana is not 'real', it is really just name, a designation, a convention refering to the tendencies of afflictions and action giving rise to delusory state of consciousness -- this consciousness is the cause for defiled states and defiled states are the causes for this consciousness., our tendencies of affliction and action. Our karmic seeds/momentum [i.e. of our 8th consciousness] which 'contains' all our ignorance gives rise to our delusory, 'defiled' samsaric vision, and the samsaric, dualistic delusory vision perpetuates our action/karma/affliction [i.e. of our 8th consciousness]. It's like an endless cycle. But insight allows us to break this chain by realising the non-dual, empty nature of reality.
But, whether we experience samsaric vision or pure vision, all along the nature of reality/all phenomena is empty-luminous.
BTW transforming Alaya Vijnana is nothing to do with being smart, spiritual realisation is not about becoming smart... as I have posted before, the stupid monk Chunda attained enlightenment, liberation also... even though he was low IQ.
And btw, it is truly possible for people to 'jump out of samsara'... I personally know of a number of people, both inside and outside the forum who have achieved the 'goal' of liberation, others are close (enlightened, but not reached the end of the journey yet). :)
Knowing this possibility, plus our opportunity to practice dharma and attain human birth is so rare... we should take this opportunity seriously, and like the Buddha said we should "practice like our hair's on fire", because such is our condition and this endless cycle of samsara is just full of suffering.
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Originally posted by justdoit77:
Are you able to elaborate what people meant by time doesn't exist?
Too hard for me..liao. :)
However, there is a timeless state of pure rest. When the mind cease to register anything , it rest in the present moment. The present moment is timeless.
Before having any transcendent experience, the typical human mind never can keep still in the present moment at all. The timeless present moment experience or rather non-experience is profound.
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Originally posted by justdoit77:
That is a good one. :)
Are you able to elaborate what people meant by time doesn't exist?You can refer to our thread on this topic 4 years ago, Time doesn't exist
and also the article I posted partially there: http://web.archive.org/web/20070811122343/http://www.buddhistinformation.com/buddhism_and_the_illusion_of_time.htm
Buddhism and the Illusion of Time
Questions and Answers from an interesting thread on Buddha's Village Forum
Answers from Tom Huston [email protected]
<< I've just read 'The end of time' by Julian Barbour which presents a fairly convincing theory that time is just an illusion and really the universe is just made up of infinite seperate 'instants', or different configurations of the Universe. Has anyone else read it and if so what do you think the implications are on Buddhism and the mind. The theory has got me quite depressed and so I would appreciate any replies.
Remmy>>
I haven't read it, but I just saw an ad for it in the new issue of Science News and decided to browse the web for more info. As for time being illusory and the universe being nothing but a series of separate "instants," like frames in a movie, that's basically correct. Everything we call "the past" is, literally, nothing but present memories. Likewise, everything we call "the future" is nothing but present memories inverted, or rearranged, to form a prediction or expectation. The appearance of "time" is little more than a trick of memory, as the Avatamsaka Sutra (Flower Ornament Scripture) says. You can easily discern this for yourself: simply figure out what it is you consider "the past" and "the future." You will discover that it is nothing but thoughts--nothing but memories, nothing but expectations, nothing but mental commentary. It's "all in your head," so to speak. There's really no such thing as time. There is really only Now--an eternally present Present with no beginning and no ending. Everything is completely new, distinct, and original every instant, with no real "change" or "motion" at all. The mystic-philosopher Heraclitus, explaining this point, said, "A man cannot step in the same river twice."
Zen Buddhism, in particular, stresses this very significant insight. Here's the Sixth Patriarch, Ch'an Master Hui-neng:
"In this moment there is nothing that comes to be. In this moment there is nothing that ceases to be. Thus there is no birth-and-death to be brought to an end. Thus the absolute peace in this present moment. Though it is at this moment, there is no limit to this moment, and herein lies eternal delight."
Zen Master Seung Sahn elaborated on this topic in his excellent book The Compass of Zen (p. 143):
"Everyone thinks that this is extremely difficult teaching, something beyond their reach or experience. How can things appear and disappear, and yet there is, originally, even in this constantly moving world, no appearing and disappearing? A student once asked me, 'The Mahaparinirvana-sutra seems very confusing. Everything is always moving. And yet everything is not moving? I don't understand this Buddhism . . .' But there is a very easy way to understand this: Sometime you go to a movie. You see an action movie about a good man and a bad man--lots of fighting, cars moving very fast, and explosions all over the place. Everything is always moving very quickly. Our daily lives have this quality: everything is constantly moving, coming and going, nonstop. It seems like there is no stillness-place. But this movie is really only a very long strip of film. In one second, there are something like fourteen frames. Each frame is a separate piece of action. But in each frame, nothing is moving. Everything is completely still. Each frame, one by one, is a complete picture. In each frame, nothing ever comes or goes, or appears or disappears. Each frame is complete stillness. The film projector moves the frames very quickly, and all of these frames run past the lens very fast, so the action on-screen seems to happen nonstop. There is no break in the movement of things. But actually when you take this strip of film and hold it up to the light with your hands, there is nothing moving at all. Each frame is complete. Each moment is completely not-moving action.
"Our minds and the whole universe are like that. This world is impermanent. Everything is always changing, changing, changing, moving, moving, moving, nonstop. Even one second of our lives seems full of so much movement and change in this world that we see. But your mind--right now--is like a lens whose shutter speed is one divided by infinite time. We call that moment-mind. If you attain that mind, then this whole world's movement stops. From moment to moment you can see this world completely stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Like the film, you perceive every frame--this moment--which is infinitely still and complete. In the frame, nothing is moving. There is no time, and nothing appears or disappears in that box. But this movie projector--your thinking mind--is always moving, around and around and around, so you experience this world as constantly moving and you constantly experience change, which is impermanence. You lose moment-mind by following your conceptual thinking, believing that it is real."
When you transcend your thinking mind in the realization of your own pure, timeless, ever-present Awareness, then the illusion of time completely collapses, and you become utterly Free of the samsaric cycle of time, change, impermanence, and suffering. This, my friend, is nothing at all to be "depressed" about! Rather, the fact that your own Buddha Mind exists beyond time, in THIS very moment, is itself the key to your permanent and eternal (timeless) Liberation.
Hope that helps!
--Tom Huston
[email protected]"To no longer resist the present is to see that there is nothing but the present--no beginning, no end, nothing behind it, nothing in front of it. When the past of memory and the future of anticipation are both seen to be present facts, then the slats to this present collapse. The boundaries around this moment fall into this moment, and then there is nothing but this moment, with nowhere else to go."
--Ken Wilber, No Boundary, pp. 158-159
<< Thanks for all that info Soulplex, I found it very helpful. There's just a couple of things I'm not too clear on. If I've missed the point somewhere please tell me. When you used the movie analogy, do you mean we see the whole of our lives at once which is 'played as a movie' to us so that the impression of impermenance and change appears, so that in effect impermenance does exist for someone who hasn't attained Nirvana? Or am I frozen in time? The latter scares me quite a bit - is there still a ten year old version of me in frozen agony after falling out of a tree? Or are only fully enlightened people 'frozen' contentedly in time?
Remmy >>
Okay, that's a good question, and I'll try to answer it as clearly as possible. First, impermanence does indeed exist for someone still trapped in Samsara (as well as suffering, attachment, death, etc.--all just names for the same condition), but it doesn't exist in Nirvana (and neither does its opposite, "permanence"). Nirvana is beyond the duality of motion and stillness, and the way that's experienced is that you feel that you (Buddha Mind) are absolutely still in the midst of a world of absolute motion, but the two don't feel different or separate. That's the nondual, Mahayana Nirvana, in which the relative dualities of nirvana-and-samsara, life-and-death, subject-and-object, matter-and-consciousness, form-and-spirit are seen to be nondual or "one," an inseparable unity. (In the dualistic, Theravadin, relative nirvana, the two--Buddha Mind and the world of form--are felt to be different and separate, which is why the Mahayana criticizes the Theravadin view as limited and incomplete.)
Let me break that down a bit: The whole world of form (samsara) is totally full of various degrees of motion and movement, so that even its "stillness" isn't absolutely still. It's only relatively still--relative to other movements, like the "stillness" you feel now sitting on a chair, even though you're zipping through space on a planetary body at thousands of miles per hour. The world of formlessness (nirvana), on the contrary, is absolutely still and tranquil, with no relative movement or relative stillness at all. So you have the relative world of relative stillness-and-motion (samsara), on the one hand, and the absolute world of absolute Stillness (nirvana), on the other. In the realization of nondual, Mahayana Enlightenment, these two worlds (relative samsara and relative nirvana, or relative form and relative emptiness) merge into a perfect Unity of Absolute Emptiness or Absolute Nirvana, and then there is neither motion nor stillness, or you can say that there is both of them together (as I explained in the first paragraph), or you can say neither of those and give the logically precise answer: silence. The Madhyamika Shastra (XV.3) put it best:
"It cannot be called void or not void,
Or both or neither;
But in order to point it out,
It is called �the Void.� "As for the filmstrip analogy . . . Yes, you do experience the whole of your life as "played at once," but all that really means is that your life only happens right now, always in this single, eternal context called Now (which is really just another name for the Absolute or Buddha Mind). The "now" when the Big Bang happened, the "now" when Gautama Buddha died, the "now" when you were born into this life, and the "now" when you'll be reading these words--these are one and the same moment, the same motionless Now.
You can picture this "Now"--which is your own Buddha Mind, your own natural Awareness--as a vast blue sky, and the world of time and change is just a little tiny cloud passing within it. The "Now" is eternal and still; it never changes or moves, since it is the infinite clearing or space in which all change and movement happens. The cloud arises, the cloud stays a bit, and the cloud goes, but the vast empty sky remains untouched by it.
This is exactly how your present experience is: you are the vast empty sky and this whole universe is a tiny cloud within you. Through the blinding power of innate ignorance, however, you have forgotten your true nature as the motionless sky and mistakenly identified yourself as the ever-changing cloud (or a small part of the cloud). A Theravadin-level enlightenment will reverse this mistake by showing you that you are really the empty sky, and a Mahayanin, nondual Enlightenment will show you that the sky and the cloud are not separate or different. The cloud arises out of, and within, the sky, and is ultimately made of "sky essence," so to speak. (It's the same as the old "mirror" analogy: your mind is perfectly clear mirror, and the world is reflected in it. You first must discover that you are the mirror and become free of the reflections; then you must discover that the reflections are not separate from the mirror. At that point you become Free as the Absolute Unity of mirror-and-reflections together.)
Now, to use the movie analogy, imagine that Awareness is a movie screen and this world of form is a projected display of light that appears on the screen. The frames appear on the screen, one at a time, in rapid succession, and the screen contains each of them as they appear. One frame of light appears on the screen, stays a fraction of a second, and disappears--and the screen only reflects one frame at a time.
Now here's where the analogy gets complicated (and where you got confused): The movie screen and filmstrip reel all occur in time; Awareness and the appearance of the world, however, are the genesis of time. There's really no "reel" or "strip" of film appearing on the screen all at once, but rather a single frame every instant, with each instantly replacing the previous one--even though its the same motionless screen they all appear on. So when you become identified with the screen (Awareness), you don't experience every single frame that ever appeared on the screen--they've all long since disappeared back into the nothingness from which they sprang. No, what you experience is the realization that this very screen is the same screen that has been reflecting frames of movie light since the beginning of the movie itself (and that the screen, naturally, also exists before and after the movie). You become identified with Awareness--which is completely beyond time--and you realize that it is eternal, that it is ever-present, that it has no beginning and no end, that it is the same "Now" in which all experiences have previously come and gone, presently come and go, and will in the future come and go, eternally so.
And then, if you break through to complete, nondual Enlightenment, you discover that the frames of movie light ARE the screen--that the two aren't separate, or even essentially different in any way--and then you see that there is only Now, only the screen-and-present-frame Unity, and so whatever frame happens to be present is the only frame there is. "Past" and "future" are revealed to be mental fantasies--present mental fantasies--and the only reality is always the present reality, with no real "frames" existing anyway before or after it. So there's no frame somewhere of a ten-year-old version of you falling out of a tree; that's only a memory now, and that's all it is. It exists nowhere but in your mind. (For this analogy we've done away with the projection booth, the projector, the reel of film, the viewer of the movie, etc.) That's what Zen Master Seung Sahn meant by his "you see the whole world stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. . . ." When there is really ONLY the present moment, the present frame, then that's all you can see. And the present frame is always completely motionless, even though the frames give an illusion of sequential continuity (and your conceptual mind superimposes an illusion of movement and change). Enlightened people don't live "'frozen' contentedly in time," as you suggested, but rather fluid and alive beyond the illusion of time altogether!
There's nothing extraordinary about this. In fact, whether you feel you're Enlightened or not, you're experiencing it right now (when else could you experience it? when else could you experience anything?). Right now, as you sit here reading these words, the whole world is completely motionless, completely new, and completely silent. Nothing is changing. Nothing is moving. Nothing is happening at all. In fact, nothing has EVER happened! Not now, and therefore not ever. The world is totally silent, and everything is at peace.
And yet--how can this be? It seems absurd, doesn't it? You can move your hands and arms around, perhaps you can crank up some loud rock music to drown out the supposed "silence," and it all seems perfectly obvious that things are happening, things are changing. But look a little closer. Hold your hand in front of you. Now clench your hand into a fist. Now release the fist and move your fingers around. It certainly appeared as though the hand were moving, didn't it? But we're not interested in appearances, here; we want the reality. And the reality of your hand-moving experiment is that it was a completely different hand every instant, even when "you" weren't moving it!
On the surface, maybe this seems obvious: electrons in the hand were spinning at the speed of light; blood was flowing through the veins and capillaries; neurotransmitters were zipping instructions across the synapses, thereby engaging muscles to move. Lots of things about your supposedly static "hand" were changing. Of course, people can brush this off and say, "Yeah, okay, but it's still the same hand, even if it changes constantly." But take it even further: Were electrons really spinning, causing that subtle change in your "hand" every fraction of a nanosecond? Weren't the electrons themselves also changing, with quarks spinning and such, so that, going all the way down, to the level of universal gravitational influences or quantum nonlocality, everything even remotely related to your hand was changing? This leads to a rather shaky image of your outwardly static "hand," but perhaps we can solidify it somewhat if we analyze exactly what we mean by "change."
Basically, change means a transformation of some kind, of a single phenomenon transforming into a different arrangement of that same phenomenon. But are there any single phenomena? Didn't we just show, with the example of the quantum hand, that everything is interconnected, somehow affecting everything else in some manner, no matter how subtly? And, even if there are distinct and separate phenomena, do any of them actually change?
Take that same hand, for example. If we didn't have the mental concept "hand," how would we describe it? If we could see that the phenomenon is actually completely new and distinct every instant, with no static mental symbol (to say nothing of memories) to hold the distinct appearances together, would we perceive these new and distinct appearances as a changing phenomenon? With no concepts and no memories superimposed on the world, does anything really change? Are there even any separate "things" that could change? Isn't it all really just one seamless display--like, say, a movie frame--of a completely new and distinct universe, arising and disappearing in an infinitely rapid succession? (With a shutter speed of "one divided by infinite time," as Zen Master Seung Sahn says.)
"A man cannot step in the same river twice," said the Greek mystic Heraclitus, and the secret of life, the universe, and everything is contained in that simple statement.
--tom
p.s. Here are some quotes that may clear up any lingering confusion:
"This is not unchanging, yet it is not moving. It has never been void; there is no question of inside or outside, no separation of absolute and relative. Realize that this is your own original face: even if it appears as ordinary or holy, even if it divides into objective and subjective experiences, all comes and goes completely within it, all arises and vanishes herein. It is like the water of the ocean making waves; though they rise again and again, never is any water added. It is also like waves dying away; though they die out and vanish, not a drop is lost."
--Zen Master Keizan, Transmission of Light
"The life of a sentient being is a long dream. Existence only appears to be real. When one finally awakens, or attains Buddhahood, existence is seen for what it is--a sequence of illusions. Until that time, people will remain obsessed by the body, mind, and external phenomena, not realizing that they are illusory. You will live in a dream, thinking that it is reality. . . .
"Sentient beings mistakenly view their moment-to-moment illusory existence as a continuous, connected lifetime. Because they are unaware that their life is unreal, they do not attempt to wake up."
--Ch�an Master Sheng-yen, Complete Enlightenment, pp. 108-109"If you are attached to your thinking, then everything has name and form. This is the world of opposites. But name and form are always changing, changing, changing. Because of this, everything is impermanent. Everything is like a dream, is like dew, is like a bubble or a flash of lightning. Nothing stays but is always in a process of change. Rather than being some constant, fixed reality, this whole universe constantly appears and disappears. But there is a way to experience the true nature of this constantly changing universe. Simply do not become attached to any outside world. Don�t become attached to names and forms. If you keep that point, then your mind is not moving. You attain that names and forms are fundamentally empty. This whole universe is completely empty. You are completely empty. Nothing ever comes or goes. Nothing ever appears or disappears. When you keep this mind, you soon attain your true self."
--Zen Master Seung Sahn, The Compass of Zen, pp. 127-129"It is like a cinema-show. There is the light on the screen and the shadows flitting across it impress the audience as the enactment of some piece. If in the same play an audience also is shown on the screen as part of the performance, the seer and the seen will then both be on the screen. Apply it to yourself. You are the screen, the Self has created the ego, the ego has its accretions of thoughts which are displayed as the world, the trees and the plants. . . . In reality, all these are nothing but the Self. If you see the Self, the same will be found to be all, everywhere and always. Nothing but the Self exists."
--Sri Ramana Maharshi"To talk about the world as being made by God tomorrow or yesterday, would be talking nonsense. God makes the world and all things in this present now."
--Meister Eckhart"Waking up from the dream means realizing that nothing ever happened. With Enlightenment there is no history. It has been burned out of existence. Time itself has been destroyed."
--Andrew Cohen"It is like an image reflected in a mirror, it is seen but it is not real; the One Mind is seen as a duality by the ignorant when it is reflected in the mirror constructed by their memory. . . . The existence of the entire universe is due to memory that has been accumulated since the beginningless past but wrongly interpreted."
--The Lankavatara Sutra"Just understand that things do not originate of themselves. All of them come into existence from your own single mental impulse of imagination mistakenly clinging to appearances.
"If you know that mind and objects fundamentally do not contact each other, you will be set free on the spot. Everything is in a state of quiescence right where it is; this very place is the site of enlightenment."
--Zen Master Pai-chang"There is nothing to overcome and nothing to prepare for�you cannot prepare for where you already are.
"If you believe that some process in time will gradually release you from the illusion of samsara, then you are in a very secure position. But if you realize that the idea of time is the illusion of samsara then the whole business is finished up very quickly. As long as there is any investment in the future, you are a hundred billion miles away from home."
--Andrew Cohen, Enlightenment is a Secret"There is only now. Everything we call the �past� is absolutely nothing but present memory. Everything we call the �future� is absolutely nothing but fantasy and commentary, that is, present memory rearranged. If we continue to pretend that there is some other time or place to be, besides right here, right now, we are cruelly and pathologically deluding ourselves."
--Scott Morrison, There Is Only Now"Beginningless time and the present moment are the same. . . . You have only to understand that time has no real existence."
--Zen Master Huang Po"Eternity is not, and cannot, be found tomorrow--it is not found in five minutes--it is not found in two seconds. It is always already Now. The present is the only reality. There is no other."
--Ken Wilber, No Boundary"All temporal succession coincides in one and the same Eternal Now. So there is nothing past or future."
--Nicolas de Cusa"If you want to know what eternity means, it is no further than this very moment. If you fail to catch it in this present moment, you will not get it, however many times you are reborn in hundreds of thousands of eons."
--Zen Master Seppo"You examine the face of heaven and earth, but you have not come to know the one who is in your presence, and you do not know how to examine the present moment."
--Jesus Christ, The Gospel of Thomas, saying 91"The idea of time is only in your mind. It is not in the Self. There is no time for the Self. Time arises as an idea after the ego arises. But you are the Self beyond time and space; you exist even in the absence of time and space."
--Sri Ramana Maharshi>Thanks, I think I understand now.
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-
Zen Master Seung Sahn:
"Our minds and the whole universe are like that. This world is impermanent. Everything is always changing, changing, changing, moving, moving, moving, nonstop. Even one second of our lives seems full of so much movement and change in this world that we see. But your mind--right now--is like a lens whose shutter speed is one divided by infinite time. We call that moment-mind. If you attain that mind, then this whole world's movement stops. From moment to moment you can see this world completely stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Like the film, you perceive every frame--this moment--which is infinitely still and complete. In the frame, nothing is moving. There is no time, and nothing appears or disappears in that box. But this movie projector--your thinking mind--is always moving, around and around and around, so you experience this world as constantly moving and you constantly experience change, which is impermanence. You lose moment-mind by following your conceptual thinking, believing that it is real."
Wow... now I think I can better grasp this. In the past when I read this I didn't really understand... but when there is glimpses through practice we can understand intuitively. (to realise and experience this all the time is another matter, though, but luckily time is an illusion... lol)
-
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Alaya Vijnana is just the delusory defiled states of our mind, the only way to deal with it is to transform it with insight/awakening so that it transform into the great round mirror wisdom.
Alaya Vijnana is not 'real', it is really our delusory state of consciousness -- this consciousness is the cause for defiled states and defiled states are the causes for this consciousness., our tendencies of affliction and action. Our karmic seeds/momentum gives rise to our samsaric vision. But, all are empty and mere appearances.
BTW transforming Alaya Vijnana is nothing to do with being smart, spiritual realisation is not about becoming smart... as I have posted before, the stupid monk Chunda attained enlightenment, liberation also... even though he was low IQ.
And btw, it is truly possible for people to 'jump out of samsara'... I personally know of a number of people, both inside and outside the forum who have achieved the 'goal' of liberation, others are close (enlightened, but not reached the end of the journey yet). :)
Knowing this possibility, plus our opportunity to practice dharma and attain human birth is so rare... we should take this opportunity seriously, and like the Buddha said we should "practice like our hair's on fire", because such is our condition and this endless cycle of samsara is just full of suffering.
just now i type a lot line ,but dispear.My experience show me the alaya ,vijjinana is ture,as some lecturer said u got to feel it ,then testify the teaching,i have read a lot taosim text,and i found a lot coincide with buddhism,both emphasize on empty ,nil,no self.But in china,most of ppl would not accept buddhism totally ,because in essence ,buddhism carry same core as christianity ,æ— çˆ¶æ— æ¯�，it can not be accepted by mainstream of chinese culture,although ,after buddhism arrived in china ,some part have been amended.Some monk in southern part could marry,buddhism come into china,and form the buddhism with chinese flavour.
the word i used smart ,really is a projection into secular world of wisdom,i mean wisdom,after i practice Taoism or buddhism ,mainly Taoism as foundation.I become smart and mature,that's the benefit i get from ancient culture.If i didnt' touch the real truth of buddhism ,it's because the cause and condition is not yet,and i am doinng well now.So i don't really hurry into this buddhism experience.
-
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Just found another quote by Thusness, so nicely said!
"http://now-for-you.com/viewtopic.php?t=2470&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45
Yes it is and the power of propensities is grossly underestimated. The momentum resulted in creating separation and subtle intentionality. Just don't get too 'stilled'... big grin Even stillness is movement. Just that movement is effortless and spontaneous. It is the sensation as if nothing is moving due to effortlessness and spontaneity. In essence, everything flows, nothing remains."
I have glimpses of "forgetting self" and "forgetting changes", surrendering to spontaneity and it's like being the flow without movement or volition. But to forget and surrender into no-self (as in void of self, not refering to the dharma seal) is not that easy, takes practice. The tendency to grasp and abide is strong.
in short buddhism is a waste of time
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Corrected version --
Edited my explanation on alaya vijnana. My previous explanation was not so accurate.
Pls correct me if I'm wrong :)
Alaya Vijnana is just a designation refering to the storehouse of afflictions and actions/karma producing delusory defiled states of our mind, the only way to deal with it is to transform it with insight/awakening so that it transform into the great round mirror wisdom. When the traces are exhausted, there is no more 'alayavijnana'.
Alaya Vijnana is not 'real', it is really just name, a designation, a convention refering to the tendencies of afflictions and action giving rise to delusory state of consciousness -- this consciousness is the cause for defiled states and defiled states are the causes for this consciousness., our tendencies of affliction and action. Our karmic seeds/momentum [i.e. of our 8th consciousness] which 'contains' all our ignorance gives rise to our delusory, 'defiled' samsaric vision, and the samsaric, dualistic delusory vision perpetuates our action/karma/affliction [i.e. of our 8th consciousness]. It's like an endless cycle. But insight allows us to break this chain by realising the non-dual, empty nature of reality.
But, whether experiencing samsaric vision or pure vision, all along the nature of reality/all phenomena is empty-luminous.
-
Originally posted by Emperor of Mankind:
in short buddhism is a waste of time
No, Buddhism allows you to transcend the illusion of time & space altogether. No time is wasted, you will rest in timeless liberation and bliss.
I know who you are :)
-
Originally posted by Emperor of Mankind:
in short buddhism is a waste of time
u r a waste of humen resource -
go home liao.
-
Originally posted by rokkie:
just now i type a lot line ,but dispear.My experience show me the alaya ,vijjinana is ture,as some lecturer said u got to feel it ,then testify the teaching,i have read a lot taosim text,and i found a lot coincide with buddhism,both emphasize on empty ,nil,no self.But in china,most of ppl would not accept buddhism totally ,because in essence ,buddhism carry same core as christianity ,æ— çˆ¶æ— æ¯�，it can not be accepted by mainstream of chinese culture,although ,after buddhism arrived in china ,some part have been amended.Some monk in southern part could marry,buddhism come into china,and form the buddhism with chinese flavour.
the word i used smart ,really is a projection into secular world of wisdom,i mean wisdom,after i practice Taoism or buddhism ,mainly Taoism as foundation.I become smart and mature,that's the benefit i get from ancient culture.If i didnt' touch the real truth of buddhism ,it's because the cause and condition is not yet,and i am doinng well now.So i don't really hurry into this buddhism experience.
Aiya, of course 8th consciousness is true! But only relatively speaking.
All mere empty-appearances. Please understand that Emptiness and Appearances are NOT two different things.Nagarjuna:
Whatever is dependently co-arisen
That is explained to be emptiness.
That, being a dependent designation
Is itself the middle way.
Something that is not dependently arisen,
Such a thing does not exist.
Therefore a non-empty thing
Does not exist.Anyway, Zacken99 posted in his forum an interesting article by Master Hsing Yun:
(partial quotation from http://fengshui.sgforums.com/forums/1169/topics/319408)
åœ¨å¹³æ—¶ï¼Œæˆ‘ä»¬ä¼šæŠŠæœ‰ä¸Žæ— åˆ†å¾—å¾ˆå¼€ï¼Œæœ‰ä¸€åˆ™å…¬æ¡ˆï¼šä¸€ä¸ªä¿¡å¾’é—®æ™ºè—�禅师：‘å¸ˆçˆ¶ï¼Œè¯·é—®æœ‰æ— å¤©å ‚ã€�地狱？'
师曰：‘有。'
‘æœ‰æ— å› æžœæŠ¥åº”ï¼Ÿ'
师曰：‘有。'
‘æœ‰æ— ä½›ã€�法ã€�僧三å®�？'
师曰：‘有。'
‘æœ‰æ— æœ¬æ�¥é�¢ç›®ã€�真如自性？'
师曰：‘有。'
问什么问题，智è—�都是ç”：有。信徒说：‘师父，您大概有地方错了。'
师曰：‘我哪里里错了呢？'
ä¿¡å¾’ç”é�“：‘径山禅师æ‰�ä¸�æ˜¯è¿™æ ·è®²ï¼Œä»–éƒ½è·Ÿæˆ‘è®²æ— ã€‚'
智è—�说：‘é‚£æˆ‘é—®ä½ ï¼Œå¾„å±±ç¦…å¸ˆæœ‰å¦»å°�å�—？'
‘没有ï¼�'
‘有房屋田产å�—？'
‘æ— ã€‚'
‘有金钱财å®�å�—？'
‘æ— ã€‚'
‘所以径山禅师æ‰�è¯´æ— å•Šï¼�'智è—�å�ˆç»§ç»é—®ï¼š
‘ä½ æœ‰å¦»å°�å�—？'
‘有。'
‘ä½ æœ‰æˆ¿å±‹ç”°äº§å�—？'
‘有。'
‘有金钱财å®�å�—？'
‘有。'
‘æ‰€ä»¥æˆ‘è·Ÿä½ è®²æœ‰å•Šï¼�'
è¿™å°±æ˜¯å› å�„人境界ä¸�å�Œï¼Œè€Œè¯´æ³•å•Šï¼�我们如何从森罗万象ä¸æŠŠè‡ªå·±è¿”璞归真呢？如何在这世上探讨自己的本æ�¥é�¢ç›®å‘¢ï¼Ÿå°±æ˜¯è¦�能宽大自己的心胸。
-
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Aiya, of course 8th consciousness is true! But only relatively speaking.
All mere empty-appearances. Please understand that Emptiness and Appearances are NOT two different things.Nagarjuna:
Whatever is dependently co-arisen
That is explained to be emptiness.
That, being a dependent designation
Is itself the middle way.
Something that is not dependently arisen,
Such a thing does not exist.
Therefore a non-empty thing
Does not exist.Anyway, Zacken99 posted in his forum an interesting article by Master Hsing Yun:
(partial quotation from http://fengshui.sgforums.com/forums/1169/topics/319408)
åœ¨å¹³æ—¶ï¼Œæˆ‘ä»¬ä¼šæŠŠæœ‰ä¸Žæ— åˆ†å¾—å¾ˆå¼€ï¼Œæœ‰ä¸€åˆ™å…¬æ¡ˆï¼šä¸€ä¸ªä¿¡å¾’é—®æ™ºè—�禅师：‘å¸ˆçˆ¶ï¼Œè¯·é—®æœ‰æ— å¤©å ‚ã€�地狱？'
师曰：‘有。'
‘æœ‰æ— å› æžœæŠ¥åº”ï¼Ÿ'
师曰：‘有。'
‘æœ‰æ— ä½›ã€�法ã€�僧三å®�？'
师曰：‘有。'
‘æœ‰æ— æœ¬æ�¥é�¢ç›®ã€�真如自性？'
师曰：‘有。'
问什么问题，智è—�都是ç”：有。信徒说：‘师父，您大概有地方错了。'
师曰：‘我哪里里错了呢？'
ä¿¡å¾’ç”é�“：‘径山禅师æ‰�ä¸�æ˜¯è¿™æ ·è®²ï¼Œä»–éƒ½è·Ÿæˆ‘è®²æ— ã€‚'
智è—�说：‘é‚£æˆ‘é—®ä½ ï¼Œå¾„å±±ç¦…å¸ˆæœ‰å¦»å°�å�—？'
‘没有ï¼�'
‘有房屋田产å�—？'
‘æ— ã€‚'
‘有金钱财å®�å�—？'
‘æ— ã€‚'
‘所以径山禅师æ‰�è¯´æ— å•Šï¼�'智è—�å�ˆç»§ç»é—®ï¼š
‘ä½ æœ‰å¦»å°�å�—？'
‘有。'
‘ä½ æœ‰æˆ¿å±‹ç”°äº§å�—？'
‘有。'
‘有金钱财å®�å�—？'
‘有。'
‘æ‰€ä»¥æˆ‘è·Ÿä½ è®²æœ‰å•Šï¼�'
è¿™å°±æ˜¯å› å�„人境界ä¸�å�Œï¼Œè€Œè¯´æ³•å•Šï¼�我们如何从森罗万象ä¸æŠŠè‡ªå·±è¿”璞归真呢？如何在这世上探讨自己的本æ�¥é�¢ç›®å‘¢ï¼Ÿå°±æ˜¯è¦�能宽大自己的心胸。
in fact i like nagarjuna very much, i like his middle way thinking,which coincide with my own think some part.Confucius also teachingä¸åº¸ã€‚which teach us to stay balance not go to extreme,and i read wiki of karl marks,there is theory of contact of extreme,i think it's also quite similar to the both ,but look into different perspect. -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Aiya, of course 8th consciousness is true! But only relatively speaking.
All mere empty-appearances. Please understand that Emptiness and Appearances are NOT two different things.Nagarjuna:
Whatever is dependently co-arisen
That is explained to be emptiness.
That, being a dependent designation
Is itself the middle way.
Something that is not dependently arisen,
Such a thing does not exist.
Therefore a non-empty thing
Does not exist.Anyway, Zacken99 posted in his forum an interesting article by Master Hsing Yun:
(partial quotation from http://fengshui.sgforums.com/forums/1169/topics/319408)
åœ¨å¹³æ—¶ï¼Œæˆ‘ä»¬ä¼šæŠŠæœ‰ä¸Žæ— åˆ†å¾—å¾ˆå¼€ï¼Œæœ‰ä¸€åˆ™å…¬æ¡ˆï¼šä¸€ä¸ªä¿¡å¾’é—®æ™ºè—�禅师：‘å¸ˆçˆ¶ï¼Œè¯·é—®æœ‰æ— å¤©å ‚ã€�地狱？'
师曰：‘有。'
‘æœ‰æ— å› æžœæŠ¥åº”ï¼Ÿ'
师曰：‘有。'
‘æœ‰æ— ä½›ã€�法ã€�僧三å®�？'
师曰：‘有。'
‘æœ‰æ— æœ¬æ�¥é�¢ç›®ã€�真如自性？'
师曰：‘有。'
问什么问题，智è—�都是ç”：有。信徒说：‘师父，您大概有地方错了。'
师曰：‘我哪里里错了呢？'
ä¿¡å¾’ç”é�“：‘径山禅师æ‰�ä¸�æ˜¯è¿™æ ·è®²ï¼Œä»–éƒ½è·Ÿæˆ‘è®²æ— ã€‚'
智è—�说：‘é‚£æˆ‘é—®ä½ ï¼Œå¾„å±±ç¦…å¸ˆæœ‰å¦»å°�å�—？'
‘没有ï¼�'
‘有房屋田产å�—？'
‘æ— ã€‚'
‘有金钱财å®�å�—？'
‘æ— ã€‚'
‘所以径山禅师æ‰�è¯´æ— å•Šï¼�'智è—�å�ˆç»§ç»é—®ï¼š
‘ä½ æœ‰å¦»å°�å�—？'
‘有。'
‘ä½ æœ‰æˆ¿å±‹ç”°äº§å�—？'
‘有。'
‘有金钱财å®�å�—？'
‘有。'
‘æ‰€ä»¥æˆ‘è·Ÿä½ è®²æœ‰å•Šï¼�'
è¿™å°±æ˜¯å› å�„人境界ä¸�å�Œï¼Œè€Œè¯´æ³•å•Šï¼�我们如何从森罗万象ä¸æŠŠè‡ªå·±è¿”璞归真呢？如何在这世上探讨自己的本æ�¥é�¢ç›®å‘¢ï¼Ÿå°±æ˜¯è¦�能宽大自己的心胸。
the story u post is very similar to a story about zhuangzi,
zhuangzi said there is some 有用之用，and æ— ç”¨ä¹‹ç”¨ã€‚æœ‰ç”¨ä¹‹ç”¨ is like dog ,if dog is no more use u will kill it.wuyongzhiyong is like a tree ,which is tallest and strongest,must be the tree most useless .otherwise ppl will cut it.
-
Originally posted by rokkie:
in fact i like nagarjuna very much, i like his middle way thinking,which coincide with my own think some part.Confucius also teachingä¸åº¸ã€‚which teach us to stay balance not go to extreme,and i read wiki of karl marks,there is theory of contact of extreme,i think it's also quite similar to the both ,but look into different perspect.Confucius teaching I think is good, but never had much reading of it yet.
But the Middle Way that Nagarjuna is talking about here is a different matter...
The Middle Way is the viewless view of Emptiness, beyond all extremes and conceptual notions of existence, non-existence, both, neither, eternity, nihilism and so on. Basically any dualistic, inherent views are 'extremes'.
Sinweiy posted in http://buddhism.sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/291164:
See ok...found this...
...dependent origination as an expression of the Middle Way. During one of our earlier lectures, we had occasion to refer to the Middle Way, and on that occasion we confined ourselves to only perhaps the most basic meaning. We have said that the Middle Way means avoiding the extreme of indulgence in pleasures of the senses and the extreme of self-mortification. In that context the Middle Way is synonymous with moderation. Now in the context of dependent origination, the Middle Way has another meaning which is related to the earlier meaning but deeper. In this context the Middle Way means avoiding the extremes of eternalism and nihilism. How is this so? The flame in the oil lamp exists dependent upon the oil and the wick. When either of these are absent, the flame will be extinguished. Therefore, the flame is neither permanent nor independent. Similarly, this personality of ours depends upon a combination of conditions - defilements and actions. It is neither permanent nor independent. Recognizing the conditioned nature of our personality, we avoid the extreme of eternalism, of affirming the existence of an independent, permanent self. Alternatively, recognizing that this personality, this life does not arise through accident, or mere chance, but is instead conditioned by corresponding causes, we avoid the extreme of nihilism, the extreme of denying the relation between action and consequence. While nihilism is the primary cause of rebirth in states of woe and is to be rejected, eternalism too is not conducive to liberation. One who clings to the extreme of eternalism will perform wholesome actions and will be reborn in states of happiness, as a human being or even as a god, but he will never attain liberation. Through avoiding these two extremes, through understanding the Middle Way, we can achieve happiness in this life and in the future life by performing wholesome actions and avoiding unwholesome actions, and eventually we can achieve liberation.
http://www.buddhanet.net/funbud12.htm
/\ -
Originally posted by rokkie:
just now i type a lot line ,but dispear.My experience show me the alaya ,vijjinana is ture,as some lecturer said u got to feel it ,then testify the teaching,i have read a lot taosim text,and i found a lot coincide with buddhism,both emphasize on empty ,nil,no self.But in china,most of ppl would not accept buddhism totally ,because in essence ,buddhism carry same core as christianity ,æ— çˆ¶æ— æ¯�，it can not be accepted by mainstream of chinese culture,although ,after buddhism arrived in china ,some part have been amended.Some monk in southern part could marry,buddhism come into china,and form the buddhism with chinese flavour.
the word i used smart ,really is a projection into secular world of wisdom,i mean wisdom,after i practice Taoism or buddhism ,mainly Taoism as foundation.I become smart and mature,that's the benefit i get from ancient culture.If i didnt' touch the real truth of buddhism ,it's because the cause and condition is not yet,and i am doinng well now.So i don't really hurry into this buddhism experience.
BTW I agree regarding Alaya Vijnana, you said "My experience show me the alaya ,vijjinana is ture,as some lecturer said u got to feel it ,then testify the teaching,"
This is very true :) Alaya vijnana is empty but emptiness has nothing to do with the nihilistic view of non-existence. It's like saying Mind, Alaya, and everything has no location (i.e. empty), you can't find it... like what is taught in Chapter 1 of Shurangama Sutra or the encounter with Bodhidharma that led to 2nd Patriarch's awakening (Bodhidharma asked 2nd Patriarch to show him his Mind, 2nd Patriarch couldn't find it, and was awakened).
But you can't say Mind or propensities 'doesn't exist'! You can't deny the Presence of Mind and all its manifestation including our Alaya. It's only the wrong view of location and 'entities' that is the problem, nothing is experientially denied.
What is important is to fully experience our 8th consciousness but without forming concepts of entity, location, existence over it. As Thusness said, Propensities, Source, Forms, everything exhibit this Emptiness nature, but it can be known.
How? Quiet our minds, be fully aware and sense/experience our momentum and seeds that bond us lifetime after lifetime. Be aware of the workings of our 8th consciousness. Not just to testify the teaching, it is actually important for our liberation and awakening.
Both our moderators Thusness and Longchen said very similar things from their own personal experiences:
Thusness:
Transcript of the Lankavatara Sutra sharing by Thusness
..."The third thing is to know about the power of the momentum. Now, the momentum will seem to react very fast only when your mind is really not focused, when your mind is chattering, when your mind is very busy. Your momentum will seem to be very fast. But when you are able to settle your thoughts and see in raw, the momentum seems to be very slow. They arise slowly, and then you can see that they subside. This means that the speed of arising and subsiding becomes very slow. Ok, only when you are able to see this momentum, you'll know what "oh, I made this decision and this way of perception because this momentum is reacting". Then, the condition is present for you to see what reality is all about. Otherwise, reality will always be mistaken as perception, or as an objective world, or as an Eternal Witness. Do you all get what I mean?".
.
"The momentum is so subtle that you canÂ’t see it, unless you meditate. That is why you have to meditate. Meditation is for you to calm yourself down so that your mind can be clear enough to sense this patterns. This momentum. This continuous momentum that is taking place from moment to moment. Now, why do I want to stress this momentum? Because many people mistook reality, because this momentum is always taking place and without being truly mindful, you just assume it to be like that. It is a spell. It is a magical spell that bonds. So we are blinded because of the spell, and consciousness reacts to this spell, which is just a bond. Just a bond. And you just canÂ’t see. And consciousness is full of these bonds, all around, and you canÂ’t see. These bonds are what that prevent us from understanding. Now, therefore, you have to take the Seventh Consciousness in the Cittamatra and the Eighth Consciousness very seriously. The conscious mind cannot do much things. Whatever you think you have a way of doing something can only take place not immediately. They can only take place as a form of imprint, very deep into your consciousness. Becomes imprint and momentum, and then resurface out as effects only at much later dates. It always work this way. This is what one has to understand. So now, this is the momentum that is preventing a person from seeing.".
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"Now, karmic propensities, forms, the Source, or the Nature, all is Empty. This means that if you were to search this momentum, you cannot find it. Just like the Source, it cannot be found. You can try to pinpoint any place, any where, you cannot locate it. This is not the nature that is peculiar to our luminous nature. Karmic propensities, even atoms, particles, they all exhibit this Emptiness nature. So if we were to try to understand karmic propensities as something that is stored somewhere, when it is stated that it is very deep, we cannot locate it, it is not located anywhere. Same thing when we talk about karmic propensities, when we want to understand karmic propensities, we can only understand by Feeling them, by Experiencing them. You cannot locate them. You cannot find them. This is the way we must experience the propensities, and in order to experience this, we have to be clear and we have to practise. And that is why your senses must be sharp, clear, in order to feel it. You cannot lie to yourself. Therefore Propensities, Source, Forms, everything exhibit this Emptiness nature, but it can be known.
Ok, now, until here, I do not want to formulate any theory. But I just want to tell people that are sincere in practise, to experience the bond. The bond is something that is very strong, and this bond has to be eliminated. Otherwise, it is a waste of time in practise. And it is this bond that propels you for life after life. And if you want to understand why this bond can propel life after life, the first thing you have to do is to Feeeel the presence, and the strength of this bond. How it can bond you for so many years from seeing something. You must feel this bond, this is very important. So, when this bond dissolves, then, your clarity can increase. Then there is clarity. If this bond is there, there is no Seeing. So first, you must understand that the Name, Appearance, Discrimination, and then Knowledge. Now, we must see that it is the bonds that are actually preventing us from seeing. And therefore, I kept emphasising that a person has to meditate. Do not listen to people that says you do not need meditation. You have to meditate in order to know the truth, because it is so subtle. If your mind keeps on jumping, it keeps on chattering, it cannot understand, it cannot see at all. So first, you must be able to calm your mind down and see this point. This is the bond that prevents you from experiencing reality as You, as Mind only. This is the bond that before you can see, they already cover a layer of illusion, a layer of symbols that prevents you from seeing that everything is the Mind. So when you buy in to this bond, the best you can do is to understand that Reality is Perception, that is the Realist point of view. When you work hard and is able to go beyond this layer, and dissolve the bond, you will know that everything is the Mind. By the Mind, I donÂ’t mean perception you know, I mean, your True Nature."Longchen:
"He mentioned that meditation is not important. That is not true (for me)... if one wants to discover the karmic patterns. Without meditation, the subsconscious level of awareness is not readily accessible. And one can experience being no one, but nevertheless much conditions and effects are still manifesting in an unconscious manner. "
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Yes, I too feel that meditation is very important.
IMO, it is almost impossible to make any progress without meditation.
You know, in Dzogchen, the practice is said to be no meditation involved. However, those accomplished practitioners must have been great meditators before. Is just that we do not get to see them do it so often in the current life.
Also, ... the followings are just my pure opinion with no affiliation to any buddhist teaching.... so please read with discernment...
The grips and control of unconscious and subconscious karmic pattern is extremely strong and incredibly numerous. Without meditation, this tendencies are almost 100% controlling the behaviour of a person. It is that strong.
Also, the events that happen in your life are 'controlled' by the subconscious impulses that are 'held' very deeply into the consciousness. You can call this the karma effects.
That is why dreams can be used to foretell events that are about to happen. In the dream state, the physical 'realm' is momentarily suspended to allow for a different type of conditions to arise... in this case the dream state. The dream state is a symbolic representation of the karmic and intention imprints and tendencies that are held within the deepest subsconscious. This deepest subconscious should be the same as the alaya consciousness.
What happen is that the dream plays a story with all the karmic influences symbolically represented. These karmic influences are actually about to surface and manifest soon... that is why they manifest as dreams first. Next, within a few weeks or months, the karma consequence manifest in the 'physical realm'.
From my understanding and experience, the deepest subconscious (alaya consciousness?) is not accessible without meditation. In the deepest subconscious is 'held' the original state of the 'imprints' and 'intentions'. The deepest subconscious with its pure imprints can actually be very different from the manifested personality. The 'reasons' for the rebirth are also felt in that realm.
just my opinion only.
PS: when i use the word 'realm' please understand that it is not any place elsewhere. It is mainly for easy explanation.