My personal comments on Chuang Tzu, Taoism, Buddhism

• rokkie

  3 Jun 08, 14:30

  Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

  Confucius teaching I think is good, but never had much reading of it yet.

  But the Middle Way that Nagarjuna is talking about here is a different matter...

  The Middle Way is the viewless view of Emptiness, beyond all extremes and conceptual notions of existence, non-existence, both, neither, eternity, nihilism and so on. Basically any dualistic, inherent views are 'extremes'.

  Sinweiy posted in http://buddhism.sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/291164:

  See ok...found this...
  
  ...dependent origination as an expression of the Middle Way. During one of our earlier lectures, we had occasion to refer to the Middle Way, and on that occasion we confined ourselves to only perhaps the most basic meaning. We have said that the Middle Way means avoiding the extreme of indulgence in pleasures of the senses and the extreme of self-mortification. In that context the Middle Way is synonymous with moderation. Now in the context of dependent origination, the Middle Way has another meaning which is related to the earlier meaning but deeper. In this context the Middle Way means avoiding the extremes of eternalism and nihilism. How is this so? The flame in the oil lamp exists dependent upon the oil and the wick. When either of these are absent, the flame will be extinguished. Therefore, the flame is neither permanent nor independent. Similarly, this personality of ours depends upon a combination of conditions - defilements and actions. It is neither permanent nor independent. Recognizing the conditioned nature of our personality, we avoid the extreme of eternalism, of affirming the existence of an independent, permanent self. Alternatively, recognizing that this personality, this life does not arise through accident, or mere chance, but is instead conditioned by corresponding causes, we avoid the extreme of nihilism, the extreme of denying the relation between action and consequence. While nihilism is the primary cause of rebirth in states of woe and is to be rejected, eternalism too is not conducive to liberation. One who clings to the extreme of eternalism will perform wholesome actions and will be reborn in states of happiness, as a human being or even as a god, but he will never attain liberation. Through avoiding these two extremes, through understanding the Middle Way, we can achieve happiness in this life and in the future life by performing wholesome actions and avoiding unwholesome actions, and eventually we can achieve liberation.
  
  http://www.buddhanet.net/funbud12.htm
  
  /\

  
  i think the middle way thinking is not only about avoid eternalism and nihilism,in chinese ,�有�空,�有�空,亦有亦空,��有�空.avoid eternalism and nihilism was included but ,mainly solve the disput of Therayana and mahayana.And some other sutra also coincide nagarjuna's point.

• rokkie

  3 Jun 08, 14:40

  Originally posted by longchen:

  Yes, I too feel that meditation is very important.

  IMO, it is almost impossible to make any progress without meditation.

  You know, in Dzogchen, the practice is said to be no meditation involved. However, those accomplished practitioners must have been great meditators before. Is just that we do not get to see them do it so often in the current life.

  Also, ... the followings are just my pure opinion with no affiliation to any buddhist teaching.... so please read with discernment...

  The grips and control of unconscious and subconscious karmic pattern is extremely strong and incredibly numerous. Without meditation, this tendencies are almost 100% controlling the behaviour of a person. It is that strong.

  Also, the events that happen in your life are 'controlled' by the subconscious impulses that are 'held' very deeply into the consciousness. You can call this the karma effects.

  That is why dreams can be used to foretell events that are about to happen. In the dream state, the physical 'realm' is momentarily suspended to allow for a different type of conditions to arise... in this case the dream state. The dream state is a symbolic representation of the karmic and intention imprints and tendencies that are held within the deepest subsconscious. This deepest subconscious should be the same as the alaya consciousness.

  What happen is that the dream plays a story with all the karmic influences symbolically represented. These karmic influences are actually about to surface and manifest soon... that is why they manifest as dreams first. Next, within a few weeks or months, the karma consequence manifest in the 'physical realm'.

  From my understanding and experience, the deepest subconscious (alaya consciousness?) is not accessible without meditation. In the deepest subconscious is 'held' the original state of the 'imprints' and 'intentions'. The deepest subconscious with its pure imprints can actually be very different from the manifested personality. The 'reasons' for the rebirth are also felt in that realm.

  just my opinion only.

  PS: when i use the word 'realm' please understand that it is not any place elsewhere. It is mainly for easy explanation.

   

   

   

  yes meditation is important ,but the conceptualisation is also important right?Let's why buddha don't want any mis interpretation of his intention ,then after his death,the monks call for three assembly to solve the disput .

   

  About the meditation ,let's why i call myself as outdoor man,really cannot subside to meditate

• Bodhi hut

  3 Jun 08, 16:08

   

  I would say CHAN(chinese character) is the most important...

  CHAN is part of meditation but it comprises alot more...

   

• rokkie

  3 Jun 08, 16:19

  chan is important ,but some times ,fall into meditation criteria only,someone critisize that,seems meditation(打�) is the only way to awaken,seems that who can meditate longer who claim to be superior,make every monk inactive,as nagarjana said we have to take the middle way.not extreme way

• An Eternal Now

  3 Jun 08, 17:51

  Originally posted by rokkie:

  chan is important ,but some times ,fall into meditation criteria only,someone critisize that,seems meditation(打�) is the only way to awaken,seems that who can meditate longer who claim to be superior,make every monk inactive,as nagarjana said we have to take the middle way.not extreme way

  Hi rokkie, meditation is important but we should also understand that grounding in reality in daily activities and remaining still, undistracted, calm, and aware is equally important. Even after we have some meditation experience we have to bring it to our daily lives, otherwise there will be a gap and separation between meditation and living. We have to learn how to fully engage in activities and yet be fully authenticated with Reality. This gap is not easy to bridge especially prior to certain levels of insights and experience but we should do our best.

  Also, on the other hand, it is possible to have certain experience (of non-duality, or of I AM/Eternal Witness) and extend the experience/practice to daily living, but this does not mean we can forgo sitting meditation. Some practitioners with certain realisation (of what I mentioned above) thought they can forego meditation, but they are mistaken. Because sitting meditation allows us to experience certain aspects that cannot be experienced by daily living practice alone... for us to progress. Hence, both are equally needed.

  I have pasted an article, written by my local dharma teacher many years ago on practicing in movement. Hope it helps.

  But do note that we should discipline ourselves and find time to sit and meditate, in fact my local dharma teacher started to meditate at least 1 hour without fail everyday (or more) after my taiwanese teacher emphasized the importance of it... of course, he equally emphasize practicing in daily lives and said there should be no gap and separation between movement and stillness. And he often said that the bodhisattva has no time to sit around (fully engages in activities selfless service for sentient beings)... but yet he still sits many hours a day Of course he doesn't mean literally that bodhisattvas cannot meditate, but that we must equally practice in daily living.

  For us, after my Taiwanese Teacher comes to Singapore and 传法, we are advised to meditate at least 1/2 hour a day or more. My Taiwanese teacher would make his students sit more than 1 hour with him. He himself sits, if I remember... something like 4 or 6 hours everyday, because he has now moved into his dharma center and has much time to himself. He is a lay person, though.

  Our moderator longchen recently left his job and increased his meditation hours. This provided the conditions that gave rise to his recent new and deepening experiences and insights.

  I remember our moderator Thusness told me years back that after his retirement (this or next year) he want to have at least 4 hours a day to meditate. He even thought of retreating to somewhere in China (some mountains? lol) for a period of time...

  But do also take note that after the awakening of non-duality is stabilized, meditation takes secondary role and is not seen as a means to enter a stage of experience -- because non-duality is the ever-present nature of reality, not a stage. There is no entry and exit. Nevertheless, it is still 'healthy' to meditate -- just like exercising is healthy for the body, but still we don't need to become super muscle builders. The Buddha, even after attaining full enlightenment, still spends some hours each day meditating, but even if he does not do that, his enlightenment (non-dual recognition) is not 'reduced' at all.

  Anyway back to Thusness... he's only 40... but he has a stable financial status... can't reveal so much in public! LOL. I think he is like Vimalakirti ;) That's why you seldom see him post here, he's always so busy. Fully engaged in activities yet non-dual! So non-dual certainly isn't just experienced in meditation :)

  (p.s. Vimalakirti: a bodhisattva of the highest order, on par with such figures as Manjushri, who, in order to develop living beings, lives as a layman in the crowded metropolis of Vaishali, participating in business and government and teaching the dharma in accordance with conditions.)

  Anyway here's the article by my local dharma teacher --

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• An Eternal Now

  3 Jun 08, 19:03

  Originally posted by longchen:

  Yes, I too feel that meditation is very important.

  IMO, it is almost impossible to make any progress without meditation.

  You know, in Dzogchen, the practice is said to be no meditation involved. However, those accomplished practitioners must have been great meditators before. Is just that we do not get to see them do it so often in the current life.

  Also, ... the followings are just my pure opinion with no affiliation to any buddhist teaching.... so please read with discernment...

  The grips and control of unconscious and subconscious karmic pattern is extremely strong and incredibly numerous. Without meditation, this tendencies are almost 100% controlling the behaviour of a person. It is that strong.

  Also, the events that happen in your life are 'controlled' by the subconscious impulses that are 'held' very deeply into the consciousness. You can call this the karma effects.

  That is why dreams can be used to foretell events that are about to happen. In the dream state, the physical 'realm' is momentarily suspended to allow for a different type of conditions to arise... in this case the dream state. The dream state is a symbolic representation of the karmic and intention imprints and tendencies that are held within the deepest subsconscious. This deepest subconscious should be the same as the alaya consciousness.

  What happen is that the dream plays a story with all the karmic influences symbolically represented. These karmic influences are actually about to surface and manifest soon... that is why they manifest as dreams first. Next, within a few weeks or months, the karma consequence manifest in the 'physical realm'.

  From my understanding and experience, the deepest subconscious (alaya consciousness?) is not accessible without meditation. In the deepest subconscious is 'held' the original state of the 'imprints' and 'intentions'. The deepest subconscious with its pure imprints can actually be very different from the manifested personality. The 'reasons' for the rebirth are also felt in that realm.

  just my opinion only.

  PS: when i use the word 'realm' please understand that it is not any place elsewhere. It is mainly for easy explanation.

   

   

   

  
  Thanks for the sharing, I fully agree with you said and I think it is a very good description of our 8th consciousness.
  
  
  And also I agree that our propensities/momentum are reacting most or all of the time when there is a lack of practice. That is certainly the case especially when I am too busy to meditate! Like nowadays... hehe... lost my calmness..

  Also to add, we have to meditate in order to find the possibility of another mode of knowing free from symbols and bonds... otherwise the mind is unwilling to let go of its holding to thoughts, and incessant chattering and the need to know. It just doesn't know that an effortless/natural, thoughtless and blissful state of being is possible. Once the experience is there we can gradually overcome our long held tendencies and momentum. As we become aware of how our mind works it becomes clear... and as Thusness said, the contrast between naked awareness and the state where propensities/momentum are at work will allow us to be more aware of the workings of our karmic tendencies.

  Just like what Thusness said, "To drop the bondage/deep conditionings, the mind MUST realise that another way of 'knowing' is possible; an effortless, total sensing and experience of wholeness. Next the experiences of the joy, bliss and clarity of wholeness. Without the insight into the possiblity and the experience of the positive factors, the mind will not release itself from holding.
  
  Even open pure and innocent inquiry is a deep conditioning. Makes the mind chatters incessantly. Every what, when, where and why by itself is a distancing from start. Freeing itself from such mode of inquiry aka 'knowing', the mind rests. The joy of this resting must be experienced for the 'willingness' to arise. :)"

  
  And its true that those who attain enlightenment quickly have been practicing in previous lifetimes. For example when my Taiwanese teacher first met my Master, my Master immediately recognised him and told him 'you have finally come!' even though he has never met him in this lifetime. Which means... my master has been waiting and expecting him for very long time. Within 4 days under guidance of my Master, my Taiwanese teacher achieved enlightenment.

  My Taiwanese teacher has been following my Master for many lifetimes, and in fact is my Master's successor and abbot at a Zen temple in Kyoto, Japan in the immediate past life. Needless to say he has been practicing for many lifetimes and is a great practitioner.

  When he received dharma transmission from my Master, my Master told him he practiced and received the same dharma transmission in his past life from him before. Anyway, he is now my Master's dharma successor and the only one given the task of transmitting certain important dharmas. At first he was reluctant to teach [he has his own students at his center, and did not felt like traveling internationally to various Dao Chang to teach all the students in my Buddhist organisation]... but he had no choice after he was told before my master passed away 11 years ago 'if you did not speak, no one else could speak' and the dharma teaching 'lineage' (well, not exactly lineage, but the dharma transmission) would end there for our organisation. It was however not until about 5 years later before he started teaching, because the conditions were not there.

  Anyway, so generally speaking practice is not a 1 lifetime thing... it's continuous process spanning multiple lives... one lifetime is actually very short. Our practice continues to the next life.. Thusness once said that it may take lifetimes before realising the nature of emptiness (even if one realised non-duality). It is that difficult. So since you have just come upon such insights I want to congrate you.. :)

  BTW, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche (for those who doesn't know, a well-known and highly enlightened Dzogchen master who still lives today) does teach meditation. In fact I think recently he just held a teaching session of Shamatha and Vipashyana meditation to his students.

  From my understanding, ChNNR does not say "don't meditate" but practice what suits us according to our conditions. We have to have awareness of our own condition to make the decisions on the practices. I don't have his books with me now to quote him, but you should know since you are familiar with his teachings. He himself taught a set of practices of yoga and meditative methods, even visualisation and mantras. These are however seen as secondary in Dzogchen. Dzogchen does have its own set of practices also, however. In my understanding what's most important for a Dzogchen practitioner is the student practices whatever practices he's doing with the understanding that the Self-Perfected state 'already is'.

  BTW, Dzogchen tantras advises practitioners to go into retreat and that they will attain full enlightenment within 10 years of practice (those of a lower capacity, some practitioners 'get it' faster)... and to develope rainbow body takes even longer than that. it is not as 'easy' as some might think. Some intense periods of practice may be necessary depending on the practitioner's capacity.

• longchen

  3 Jun 08, 19:45

  Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

  
  

  Anyway, so generally speaking practice is not a 1 lifetime thing... it's continuous process spanning multiple lives... one lifetime is actually very short. Our practice continues to the next life.. Thusness once said that it may take lifetimes before realising the nature of emptiness (even if one realised non-duality). It is that difficult. So since you have just come upon such insights I want to congrate you.. :)

  Thanks for the congratulation...

  But i didn't really take just one lifetime ...LOL. This should be the 3rd life on a spiritual path. Hahaha...

  First spiritual practice life, it was Tibetan Buddhism in Tibet. Next life, western mysticism in Europe. Now this life, Singapore... 'best of east and west world' (haha)... allow for the careful discernment of many types of religious and spiritual practice...In the end, Buddhism is still the most effective...generally.

  BTW... i think my simpo.proboards20.com forum is dead. From the announcement, there was a fire at the hosting facilities. Nothing last forever.

   

• An Eternal Now

  3 Jun 08, 20:01

  Originally posted by longchen:

  Thanks for the congratulation...

  But i didn't really take just one lifetime ...LOL. This should be the 3rd life on a spiritual path. Hahaha...

  First spiritual practice life, it was Tibetan Buddhism in Tibet. Next life, western mysticism in Europe. Now this life, Singapore... 'best of east and west world' (haha)... allow for the careful discernment of many types of religious and spiritual practice...In the end, Buddhism is still the most effective...generally.

  BTW... i think my simpo.proboards20.com forum is dead. From the announcement, there was a fire at the hosting facilities. Nothing last forever.

   

  I see... yeah Singapore is truly the best of both worlds ;)

  BTW I thought they say your forum will be recovered?

  I remember they said that the fire destroyed their walls but the data were intact, and they will recover them in due time.

• An Eternal Now

  3 Jun 08, 20:14

  Originally posted by rokkie:

  
  i think the middle way thinking is not only about avoid eternalism and nihilism,in chinese ,�有�空,�有�空,亦有亦空,��有�空.avoid eternalism and nihilism was included but ,mainly solve the disput of Therayana and mahayana.And some other sutra also coincide nagarjuna's point.

  Yes this is true :)

• An Eternal Now

  3 Jun 08, 20:43

  BTW one more thing about the bonds.

  It is possible through Buddhist practice to burn/dissolve away the bond once and for all and end the causes for rebirth (though if you're a Bodhisattva, you return again out of vows and compassion, but not due to karma).. this is through awakening of insight. I think most people know about this.

  Another thing is, though subconscious/Alaya consciousnesss/8th Consciousness seems to be separate realm/distinct layer of consciousness from our conscious experience, they are actually an inseparable flow. We can become aware of its interactions as a whole.

  
  
  Participant 1: But my experiences are not consistent, you know.
  
  Thusness: Of course lah, the consistencies comes from... it actually has to do a lot with the bond or the momentum you have {inaudible}. Insight actually burns the bond away. Insight meditation, insight into reality. You understand suddenly... the bond loosens, just breaks. Then stability is it must sink very deep into your consciousness, then it becomes stable. When I say sink into consciousness, it doesnÂ’t mean that there are {inaudible}. It is just for the sake of saying it has to sink very deep down.
  
  Consciousness, when I say that there is a sub conscious, and there is the conscious level. And I say what is done in the conscious level must sink very deep down into the sub conscious of they call {inaudible} and the 8th consciousness. When somebody said that, straight away the thinking mind thought that there is a sub conscious mind and a conscious mind, they are two, they are different. {inaudible}
  
  The sub conscious, the propensities, and what we call the conscious level are just mental states only. They are all the same. And you have to understand that they do not reside anywhere. When {inaudible} We are in a conventional world. The thinking mind will divide the conscious and the sub conscious and think that they are separate. The thinking mind will treat it as that way.
  
  Just like I said... is your head separated from your neck? {laughs} Is your legs separated from your head? {laughs} So first of all you must understand these first. You must be able to see things as a whole, and treat things as a process first. Just like you always hear people say “shi bai shi cheng gong zhi mu” (failure is the mother of success) Then you say that, this person fail. Then this person succeeds. Then to the person, at that moment he fail, is actually the beginning of success. To you, that is failure. But to him, that is the beginning of success. {inaudible} Same flow. But the mind goes and divides it, and you think that there is a very distinct layer, this is success. {inaudible} But the mind continues to divide, and that is the problem. {inaudible}
  
  Now can concentration lead to the understanding of reality, I said I donÂ’t think so. Correct? Because it requires insights. {inaudible}... of a subject and an object.... {inaudible}

• An Eternal Now

  3 Jun 08, 22:42

  Originally posted by rokkie:

  yes meditation is important ,but the conceptualisation is also important right?Let's why buddha don't want any mis interpretation of his intention ,then after his death,the monks call for three assembly to solve the disput .

   

  About the meditation ,let's why i call myself as outdoor man,really cannot subside to meditate

  
  Conceptuality! wah u just gave me the opportunity to say something i have thought of saying yesterday... but condition wasn't there for me to post. So right now, condition arise. yuan qi :) thanks.. hehe.. you seem to know what i want to say, or maybe I just misunderstood what you meant ;)

  Like the flower in the mirror or the moon on water, it's illusory yet a perfect vivid manifestation of luminous clarity. Emptiness teaching doesn't ask us change or avoid the vision of the moon, but to see the moon with clarity without the illusion that there is a moon located inside or outside the water, or a flower located inside or outside the mirror. There is simply a pure dependently originated reflection, empty of inherent existence and location.

  But if you think that apart from the appearances there is an ultimate truth to be found, some kind of ultimate/absolute view of "Emptiness" that is "the ultimate", you are misled. Teaching of emptiness simply points, and dissolves all our views of inherency, leaving nothing to be found... not even emptiness...

  It's like saying that the 'redness' of flower is illusory. There is no inherent redness or flowerness (e.g. dogs don't perceive colours) But there is also no separate reality called 'emptiness'. Basically it's just saying the flower is not real (has no external/objective reality), but without establishing emptiness as an absolute or ultimate truth. Emptiness is also empty. So ultimately no views can grasp emptiness!

  Nevertheless vision of red flower continue to appear vividly according to conditions -- inseparably luminous and empty -- illusory divine appearances, empty yet complete and perfect as it is, spontaneously appearing according to conditions.

  Hence ultimately no establishment of views are required, the viewless view is simply emptiness happening.

  Hence you can see that the teachings of emptiness is only a skillful expedient means, deconstructing and destroying all our dualistic views and views of inherency, without establishing anything (some kind of 'ultimate truth' that can be arrived at)... nothing left but the perfect, complete, luminous-empty-appearance appearing naturally and spontaneously according to conditions.
  
  However having said so much, even an intellectual understanding of emptiness through understanding the teachings is important prior to the insight/direct experience of emptiness, in that it prevents false views from arising and counters some of our dualistic assumptions so that we'll be on the right path. If one holds onto false views of self, eternalism, etc.. or any dualistic or inherent views... true experience cannot arise.
  
  Also with false views, a sincere practitioner though he practices hard can get stuck in certain stage for a long time, even after having certain vivid experience of Presence... for example one may be stuck in the I AM/Eternal Witness stage... maybe 20 years or his entire life. Partly because there is no right views. In this case having right views can really help him develop further insights into the nature of presence. Our moderator Longchen is an example, as he was stuck in the I AM stage for many years... our moderator Thusness also, prior to encountering Buddhism. But Longchen was able to progress, after Thusness introduced him to the nature of non-duality and emptiness.

  In a rather recent advise to Longchen, Thusness said "In Buddhism there is a complete system of thought to orientate ourselves non-dually, that is, the viewless-view of Emptiness. It is a raft but it is the antidote for the conventional mind to orientate itself in a non-dual and non-local context. It also led to the amazing insight that ‘duality’ is really the result of seeing and taking things ‘inherently’ (You may want to the take up the challenge of re-engaging in thoughts penetrating this viewless view of Emptiness and thoroughly understand how this affect us into seeing things dualistically )."

  This has provided Longchen with the condition to realise Emptiness about a week back... this couldn't have happened without the teachings of Buddha or Thusness pointing out the subtleties to him. So understanding Buddhist teachings is important.

  Unfortunately sometimes, there are some practitioners (not referring to anyone in particular) who are too attached to non-conceptuality [and may have the skewed thought that sustaining thoughtless awareness is important while words and teachings are useless] and refuses to look into the teachings of Buddha and understand them, or thinks he understood but actually misunderstood them.

  They may prefer to simply remain non-conceptual and in naked awareness... but nevertheless he fails to see the subtle karmic propensity and momentum at work distorting his experience and forming subtle views. It is so subtle that the practitioner can't see it himself by his own wisdom, so the teachings by Buddha [with his omniscience and skillful means] will definitely help, and is actually necessary factor to give rise to insights. That is why proper understanding of Dharma teachings is important also -- it is an important factor to give rise to true insights.

  Like Thusness said, "It is not uncommon to find practitioners totally giving up this attempt to synchronize "views" and experience and conclude that it is an absolute futile endeavor to do that. They prefer to rest fully in naked awareness.
  
  By doing so, the practitioner will miss something valuable -- the insight of the importance of "non inherent existence"."

  That, you can't realise it by yourself without the help/teachings of Shakyamuni Buddha... unless you're a Pratyekabuddha, one who realised dependent origination/emptiness by himself without the teachings by another Buddha.... but it's said that a Pratyekabuddha can only exist in an era without Buddhadharma. ;) And furthermore, a Pratyekabuddha has trained under previous Buddhas and Buddha-sassana... just that when enlightenment occurred in that lifetime, it occurred at a time without other Buddhas or Buddhadharma.

  Anyway I guess, for the people I just mentioned (attached to non-conceptuality but missed the essence), the remedy is for them to let go of their clinging to non-conceptuality. And get him to have proper understanding of the teachings.

  To know the pathless, see words and wordlessness as one.

  Non-conceptuality is just the beginning, it is far from the totality of our marvelous nature's manifestation. Use words and engage in speeches, dirty your hands and walk on!

  Milarepa said: Conceptual thoughts are in nature great awareness.

  [great awareness here referring to the pristine awareness of our true nature]

   

  But we're talking about practitioners with transcendental experiences, how is it relevant to beginners? Why should we bother.

  Thusness:
  
  Knowing this, right and firm establishment of view of the dharma seals is most crucial. Through diligent practice of mindfulness and together with the right views from start will help to prevent unnecessary pitfalls. Any transcendental experiences and insights that occurred during our journey will then be correctly understood. The experiences will in turn re-enforce our understanding instead of misleading us into the sense of 'Self' and further strengthen the bond.

   

  Oh and btw, in case you forgotten, Right View is the 1st of the 8 Fold Path to enlightenment.

  
  But in the end for all practitioners there is nothing to be understood, nothing to be grasped, teachings are there only to clarify and destroy our dualistic views and views of inherency, to point us to and allow the revelation of the nature of mind, our true nature/buddha nature, an unfabricated reality that is empty and ungraspable by thought and concepts.

  It is an insight, a quantum shift in perception, not a conceptual understanding. I believe this is what is known as the 'Right View Without Taint'.

  As for the teachings, they are a raft to orientate ourselves with the Viewless View, once insight dawns, the raft is left behind (let go of the teachings). But of course, before arriving at the viewless view of 'mere emptiness happening', please take up the raft and understand the teachings first!

   

  But for people like me who are too intellectual and conceptual and lacking experience and having strong karmic propensities/momentum... the remedy would be to prolong and sustain non-conceptuality.

  Practice this in daily lives but also very important to find time to meditate. And stop talking and thinking so much. LOL

  
  
  Also, to have an initial direct experience of Buddha Nature is the most important and precious, the first step. Only then can we begin to understand the teachings by experience, otherwise all the knowledge we acquire about our true nature, we can't truly relate to them... so what use is there. Nevertheless, an initial awakening still does not contain all the insights yet. Our Buddha-Nature could be mistaken as "I AM". And the teachings can still remain a mystery or an intellectual/conceptual understanding (such as emptiness and non-duality) and may even be misunderstood.

  Thusness:

  Of all teachings, no teaching is more important than a direct ‘touch’ of our Buddha essence; but of all dangers, none is more dangerous than misinterpreting our essence after the ‘touch’.

  The ‘touch’ of the pure sense of existence is often wrongly understood due to our karmic tendencies.  Use the doctrine of Anatta and Emptiness as antidote.
  
  
  But first, what is important is that any and all intellectual grasping, "knowledge" and the mind's desire and "need" to know, and all apparent "confusions", needs to go as well. Otherwise it becomes a hindrance, "shuo zhi zhang". We need to pause all conceptualising processes.
  
  An initial awakening to presence can occur only when there is NO thoughts, not a single thought arising. That is a momentary, total suspension of thinking, but yet being fully awake and present. Then one may realise one's real 'identity'/true 'face' [which is the no-face awareness before your parents gave birth to you] as an all-pervading presence; it is not induced through meditation but naturally revealed -- like the sun or the clear blue sky (our buddha-nature) that has always been shining and clear and boundless but obscured by the clouds (our thoughts and concepts), but now it is as if every fleck of cloud had been wiped from the vast sky and it is finally revealed. The shining sun or the vast sky is always present and not induced but simply revealed.

  Hence achieving total non-conceptuality is vital. This cannot be achieved by force or suppression, but by letting go and following a correct method of practice, one can gradually arrive at it.

  But, later it will be realised and experienced that the clouds floating in the vast open sky never obscures the clarity of the shining sun or the boundlessness and freedom of the sky, and even later it is realised that the clouds and the sky are inseparable from the beginning... the cloud is the sky.

  But even then, non-attachment to thoughts is still important.

• Bodhi hut

  4 Jun 08, 00:05

   

  For those who watch Yu Dan tonight, this episode is good..it will continue next week.

• An Eternal Now

  4 Jun 08, 00:38

  (continued)

  After talking so much, I should conclude with something by what JonLS posted in our forum 2 years ago:

   

   

  I know what you talking about here, because I had a moment of complete clarity a few day ago.
  
  I saw that all there really is is awareness.
  
  Just awareness.
  
  Everything else is just stories.
  
  It was a wonderful liberating insight.
  
  I recognized what was being said by Nathan Gill, when he said that all words are not "it". And have nothing to do with "it".
  
  Unless you have the insight, the experience yourself, it is quite useless to talk about it.
  
  So I encourage everyone to go after the insight and stop spending so much time with words.

  -----------

  Thusness replied:

  Yes sounds good. Not about words, nothing conceptual, no fabrications, it's all about insights.

  ----------

  Another post by JonLS:

  Hi AnEternalNow,
  
  Should you be trying to learn from Thusness or should you be letting go of all learning?
  
  Why are you taking yourself so seriously?
  
  Is there anything really that needs to be learned???
  
  Who is it that needs to do all this learning???
  
  Where is this "you" that you are taking so seriously???
  
  Do you really think Zen teachings are all that necessary???

  ----------

  Reply by Thusness:

   

  This sounds great too...it is an unlearning process. Eliminate until none!

• An Eternal Now

  4 Jun 08, 14:02

  It all sounds difficult and complicated when explained in words (but go listen to Buddha's teachings, he's wise and makes it all so simple for us!), but reality is actually the simple Isness, undeniable, immediate Presence of this moment... in which all is complete and nothing can be added or subtracted.

  But then dualistic thought says, "if it's so simple I don't have to learn dharma teachings anymore right!"

  Nope. We still have to learn dharma teachings 'of secondary meaning', in the simple Isness, immediacy of this moment.

  Learning dharma teachings is a condition for the arising of insight. (though it is NOT the only condition, but the first of the 8 fold path, to have Right Views)

  Without right action, without right mental development which includes mindfulness, concentration (and going beyond conceptual grasping)... insights cannot arise.

  Buddhism is founded on the reality of dependent origination, and all his teachings is completely consistent with the reality of Depedent Origination and Emptiness.

  Buddha completely understands the conditions that leads to the perpetuation/cycle of samsara, and the conditions that leads to insights and liberation.

  Even though all is happening in the simple Isness, undeniable, immediate Presence of this moment.

  ----------

  There are two kinds of meaning in the Dharma: the Dharma of secondary meaning, and the Dharma of ultimate meaning. Whatever can be spoken, heard, understood or learned refers to the Dharma of secondary meaning. The Dharma of ultimate meaning is beyond words and language, phrases, and names. To directly understand the Dharma of ultimate meaning is to be enlightened. In ancient Chan monasteries, before the master spoke, the assembly gathered, and the chanting leader chanted a verse that begins something like this: "This assembly of great elephants and dragons gather to hear the Dharma King's Dharma," and concluded with: "The Dharma King's Dharma is just thus. This is the Dharma of ultimate meaning." Usually the first part was chanted before the master spoke, the last part after the talk. The Dharma King is of course the Buddha. Nowadays they just do this as a sort of ritual, so they chant the whole four verses. Actually it is much better, because the Dharma of first meaning is ineffable, so they chant: "The dragons and elephants gather together to hear the Dharma King's Dharma," then before anyone can speak any Dharma, they chant: "The Dharma is just thus." This "thus" is the ultimate Dharma.
  
  - Master Sheng Yen, westernchanfellowship.org/fileadmin/user_upload/documents/Chan_Magazine_Summer_1999.pdf

• rokkie

  4 Jun 08, 14:26

  Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

  Hi rokkie, meditation is important but we should also understand that grounding in reality in daily activities and remaining still, undistracted, calm, and aware is equally important. Even after we have some meditation experience we have to bring it to our daily lives, otherwise there will be a gap and separation between meditation and living. We have to learn how to fully engage in activities and yet be fully authenticated with Reality. This gap is not easy to bridge especially prior to certain levels of insights and experience but we should do our best.

  Also, on the other hand, it is possible to have certain experience (of non-duality, or of I AM/Eternal Witness) and extend the experience/practice to daily living, but this does not mean we can forgo sitting meditation. Some practitioners with certain realisation (of what I mentioned above) thought they can forego meditation, but they are mistaken. Because sitting meditation allows us to experience certain aspects that cannot be experienced by daily living practice alone... for us to progress. Hence, both are equally needed.

  I have pasted an article, written by my local dharma teacher many years ago on practicing in movement. Hope it helps.

  But do note that we should discipline ourselves and find time to sit and meditate, in fact my local dharma teacher started to meditate at least 1 hour without fail everyday (or more) after my taiwanese teacher emphasized the importance of it... of course, he equally emphasize practicing in daily lives and said there should be no gap and separation between movement and stillness.

  For us, after my Taiwanese Teacher comes to Singapore and 传法, we are advised to meditate at least 1/2 hour a day or more. My Taiwanese teacher would make his students sit more than 1 hour with him. He himself sits, if I remember... something like 4 or 6 hours everyday, because he has now moved into his dharma center and has much time to himself. He is a lay person, though.

  I remember our moderator Thusness told me years back that after his retirement (this or next year) he want to have at least 4 hours a day to meditate. He even thought of retreating to somewhere in China (some mountains? lol) for a period of time... Oh and he's only 40... but he has a stable financial status... not to say so much in public! LOL.

   

   

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    醒群  Page(s) 1 注 ： 上篇/下篇 ä¸�包括 PDF file

  sometimes i can subside to read buddhism stuff ,but sometimes not quite into it.So keep undistracted is important ,i used to be distracted.But lots of time ordinary ppl don't understand buddhism teaching ,and intend to categorise buddhist as inactive ,bored.I think one good thing about buddhism is that buddha do not force ppl to join him,he only wait for someone who r doubtful,then he will teach them.

  i think buddhism pratice is step by step process,where r many steps,although some chan tradition claim that we can suddenly awaken 顿悟.And at later stage ,some master invent some method do to that , such as 机锋棒�.But in some sutras ,show that there r many steps ,first 欢喜地. then 慧焰地,�动地,远行地.

• An Eternal Now

  4 Jun 08, 14:37

  Originally posted by rokkie:

  sometimes i can subside to read buddhism stuff ,but sometimes not quite into it.So keep undistracted is important ,i used to be distracted.But lots of time ordinary ppl don't understand buddhism teaching ,and intend to categorise buddhist as inactive ,bored.I think one good thing about buddhism is that buddha do not force ppl to join him,he only wait for someone who r doubtful,then he will teach them.

  i think buddhism pratice is step by step process,where r many steps,although some chan tradition claim that we can suddenly awaken 顿悟.And at later stage ,some master invent some method do to that , such as 机锋棒�.But in some sutras ,show that there r many steps ,first 欢喜地. then 慧焰地,�动地,远行地.

  This is our moderator Thusness's views about sudden awakening.

  The occurence for the first few glimpses of our nature is commonly refered to as 'sudden', like flashes of lightnings because these insights into our nature are out of the conventional routine dualistic views.  But for these glimpses to occur, it is a long process.  After dissolving to certain degree the 'sense of self', 'sudden' will become irrelevant.

   

  In the Zen school utilizes koans to lead to a sudden awakening. But you still have to practice it for some time before you realise the truth.

  There is no one who can make you enlightened in one day -- unless you are of high capacity. If things were that easy, everyone will be enlightened by now. So don't think fantasies, practice hard.

  It's not the dharma that is the problem, it's YOUR problem... your 'gen qi' is not there :) Even if you meet a Zen master who teaches you the sudden path, it will not 'click'... until you have prepared a lifetime's practice for that very moment.

  Some masters however, they can become enlightened very fast. Their 'gen qi' is there. My Taiwanese teacher became enlightened 4 days after meeting my Master, because he has practiced and followed my Master for many lifetimes, including in the immediate past life he was my Master's successor and abbot of a Zen temple in Kyoto, Japan.

  BTW, my Taiwanese teacher teaches the sudden method. But ours is 'Dun4 Chao1', not 'Dun4 Wu4'.

  He said if meet the right person, he will be enlightened on the spot... and there are such persons. But how many have the 'gen qi' these days? Very few. I have been transmitted the dharma, but I'm not yet enlightened.

  But this should not be a let down, but should turn into a strength, because you know that if you practice what is taught, the goal can surely be achieved.

  But here's an advise: if you meet someone you're confident is a Ming2 Shi1 (one who is enlightened)... follow him and practice hard.

  Also what you mean by "机锋棒�"

• rokkie

  4 Jun 08, 14:55

  Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

  
  Conceptuality! wah u just gave me the opportunity to say something i have thought of saying yesterday... but condition wasn't there for me to post. So right now, condition arise. yuan qi :) thanks.. hehe.. you seem to know what i want to say, or maybe I just misunderstood what you meant ;)

  Like the flower in the mirror or the moon on water, it's illusory yet a perfect vivid manifestation of luminous clarity. Emptiness teaching doesn't ask us change or avoid the vision of the moon, but to see the moon with clarity without the illusion that there is a moon located inside or outside the water, or a flower located inside or outside the mirror. There is simply a pure dependently originated reflection, empty of inherent existence and location.

  But if you think that apart from the appearances there is an ultimate truth to be found, some kind of ultimate/absolute view of "Emptiness" that is "the ultimate", you are misled. Teaching of emptiness simply points, and dissolves all our views of inherency, leaving nothing to be found... not even emptiness...

  It's like saying that the 'redness' of flower is illusory. There is no inherent redness or flowerness (e.g. dogs don't perceive colours) But there is also no separate reality called 'emptiness'. Basically it's just saying the flower is not real (has no external/objective reality), but without establishing emptiness as an absolute or ultimate truth. Emptiness is also empty. So ultimately no views can grasp emptiness!

  Nevertheless vision of red flower continue to appear vividly according to conditions -- inseparably luminous and empty -- illusory divine appearances, empty yet complete and perfect as it is, spontaneously appearing according to conditions.

  Hence ultimately no establishment of views are required, the viewless view is simply emptiness happening.

  Hence you can see that the teachings of emptiness is only a skillful expedient means, deconstructing and destroying all our dualistic views and views of inherency, without establishing anything (some kind of 'ultimate truth' that can be arrived at)... nothing left but the perfect, complete, luminous-empty-appearance appearing naturally and spontaneously according to conditions.
  
  However having said so much, even an intellectual understanding of emptiness through understanding the teachings is important prior to the insight/direct experience of emptiness, in that it prevents false views from arising and counters some of our dualistic assumptions so that we'll be on the right path. If one holds onto false views of self, eternalism, etc.. or any dualistic or inherent views... true experience cannot arise.
  
  Also with false views, a sincere practitioner though he practices hard can get stuck in certain stage for a long time, even after having certain vivid experience of Presence... for example one may be stuck in the I AM/Eternal Witness stage... maybe 20 years or his entire life. Partly because there is no right views. In this case having right views can really help him develop further insights into the nature of presence. Our moderator Longchen is an example, as he was stuck in the I AM stage for many years... our moderator Thusness also, prior to encountering Buddhism. But Longchen was able to progress, after Thusness introduced him to the nature of non-duality and emptiness.

  In a rather recent advise to Longchen, Thusness said "In Buddhism there is a complete system of thought to orientate ourselves non-dually, that is, the viewless-view of Emptiness. It is a raft but it is the antidote for the conventional mind to orientate itself in a non-dual and non-local context. It also led to the amazing insight that ‘duality’ is really the result of seeing and taking things ‘inherently’ (You may want to the take up the challenge of re-engaging in thoughts penetrating this viewless view of Emptiness and thoroughly understand how this affect us into seeing things dualistically )."

  This has provided Longchen with the condition to realise Emptiness about a week back... this couldn't have happened without the teachings of Buddha or Thusness pointing out the subtleties to him. So understanding Buddhist teachings is important.

  Unfortunately sometimes, there are some practitioners (not referring to anyone in particular) who are too attached to non-conceptuality [and may have the skewed thought that sustaining thoughtless awareness is important while words and teachings are useless] and refuses to look into the teachings of Buddha and understand them, or thinks he understood but actually misunderstood them.

  They may prefer to simply remain non-conceptual and in naked awareness... but nevertheless he fails to see the subtle karmic propensity and momentum at work distorting his experience and forming subtle views. It is so subtle that the practitioner can't see it himself by his own wisdom, so the teachings by Buddha [with his omniscience and skillful means] will definitely help, and is actually necessary factor to give rise to insights. That is why proper understanding of Dharma teachings is important also -- it is an important factor to give rise to true insights.

  Like Thusness said, "It is not uncommon to find practitioners totally giving up this attempt to synchronize "views" and experience and conclude that it is an absolute futile endeavor to do that. They prefer to rest fully in naked awareness.
  
  By doing so, the practitioner will miss something valuable -- the insight of the importance of "non inherent existence"."

  That, you can't realise it by yourself without the help/teachings of Shakyamuni Buddha... unless you're a Pratyekabuddha, one who realised dependent origination/emptiness by himself without the teachings by another Buddha.... but it's said that a Pratyekabuddha can only exist in an era without Buddhadharma. ;) And furthermore, a Pratyekabuddha has trained under previous Buddhas and Buddha-sassana... just that when enlightenment occurred in that lifetime, it occurred at a time without other Buddhas or Buddhadharma.

  Anyway I guess, for the people I just mentioned (attached to non-conceptuality but missed the essence), the remedy is for them to let go of their clinging to non-conceptuality. And get him to have proper understanding of the teachings.

  To know the pathless, see words and wordlessness as one.

  Non-conceptuality is just the beginning, it is far from the totality of our marvelous nature's manifestation. Use words and engage in speeches, dirty your hands and walk on!

  Milarepa said: Conceptual thoughts are in nature great awareness.

  [great awareness here referring to the pristine awareness of our true nature]

   

  But we're talking about practitioners with transcendental experiences, how is it relevant to beginners? Why should we bother.

  Thusness:
  
  Knowing this, right and firm establishment of view of the dharma seals is most crucial. Through diligent practice of mindfulness and together with the right views from start will help to prevent unnecessary pitfalls. Any transcendental experiences and insights that occurred during our journey will then be correctly understood. The experiences will in turn re-enforce our understanding instead of misleading us into the sense of 'Self' and further strengthen the bond.

   

  Oh and btw, in case you forgotten, Right View is the 1st of the 8 Fold Path to enlightenment.

  
  But in the end for all practitioners there is nothing to be understood, nothing to be grasped, teachings are there only to clarify and destroy our dualistic views and views of inherency, to point us to and allow the revelation of the nature of mind, our true nature/buddha nature, an unfabricated reality that is empty and ungraspable by thought and concepts.

  It is an insight, a quantum shift in perception, not a conceptual understanding. I believe this is what is known as the 'Right View Without Taint'.

   

  Anyway for people like me who are too intellectual and conceptual and lacking experience and having strong karmic propensities/momentum... the remedy would be to prolong and sustain non-conceptuality.

  Practice this in daily lives but also very important to find time to meditate. And stop talking and thinking so much. LOL

  
  
  Also, to have an initial direct experience of Buddha Nature is the most important and precious, the first step. Only then can we begin to understand the teachings by experience, otherwise all the knowledge we acquire about our true nature, we can't truly relate to them... so what use is there. Nevertheless, an initial awakening still does not contain all the insights yet. Our Buddha-Nature could be mistaken as "I AM". And the teachings can still remain a mystery or an intellectual/conceptual understanding (such as emptiness and non-duality) and may even be misunderstood.

  Thusness:

  Of all teachings, no teaching is more important than a direct ‘touch’ of our Buddha essence; but of all dangers, none is more dangerous than misinterpreting our essence after the ‘touch’.

  The ‘touch’ of the pure sense of existence is often wrongly understood due to our karmic tendencies.  Use the doctrine of Anatta and Emptiness as antidote.
  
  
  But first, what is important is that any and all intellectual grasping, "knowledge" and the mind's desire and "need" to know, and all apparent "confusions", needs to go as well. Otherwise it becomes a hindrance, "shuo zhi zhang". We need to pause all conceptualising processes.
  
  An initial awakening to presence can occur only when there is NO thoughts, not a single thought arising. That is a momentary, total suspension of thinking, but yet being fully awake and present. Then one may realise one's real 'identity'/true 'face' [which is the no-face awareness before your parents gave birth to you] as an all-pervading presence; it is not induced through meditation but naturally revealed -- like the sun or the clear blue sky (our buddha-nature) that has always been shining and clear and boundless but obscured by the clouds (our thoughts and concepts), but now it is as if every fleck of cloud had been wiped from the vast sky and it is finally revealed. The shining sun or the vast sky is always present and not induced but simply revealed.

  Hence achieving total non-conceptuality is vital. This cannot be achieved by force or suppression, but by letting go and following a correct method of practice, one can gradually arrive at it.

  But, later it will be realised and experienced that the clouds floating in the vast open sky never obscures the clarity of the shining sun or the boundlessness and freedom of the sky, and even later it is realised that the clouds and the sky are inseparable from the beginning... the cloud is the sky.

  But even then, non-attachment to thoughts is still important.

  thx for the mindful reply,i think different sages create different system to concepulise the world.Buddhism is afte hinduism ,and hinduism claim to be the origin of all the religion in the world,maybe right ,because it's the most ancient systemised religion in the world.

  And buddhism also got Theravana and mahayana tradition ,chinese trend to adhere to the latter one,which coincide characteristics of chinese,who tend to like talk but not much practice,in fact chinese is race tend to not believe in any deity.This have been shown in confucius analect.未知生焉知死.or�罕言性与天�.and the difference and similarity between india and china is quite intriguing,india is more soft empty ,simliar to Taoism ,but china,not only Taoism but also confucius who mention balance alot.So why india cannot set up a strong military force ,and colonized by other country many years,it think this is the reason,indian is too soft,like taoism ,who also emphasize on softness,but fail to raise up a theory for military ,taoism teach 兵者�详之物,大兵过�必有凶年.So in possesing that teaching,ppl cannot hardly set up any strong military force,so nowadays ,chinese character and language still survive to date.But india fail to protect their own language and culture.

  So i think buddhism is only applied to some ppl.If all the ppl in the country practice that,definitely he will be weaken in military force.

  At some era of chinese history.Some master tend to sit and meditate for months and years.And the monks become inactive,weak.So some buddhist pioneers critize that tradition,said buddhism should have more resposiblity to society.And that tradition become named 人间佛教.So after buddhism spread to china,some tradition become quite different to original buddhism,like buddha used to eat mean,u can kown it from after buddha practive ascetic way in the gungle for six year ,he drink乳糜 from a sheep keeper.And buddha himself married and have child.But in china one emperor forbid monks to eat meat.And in india Kuanyin is a man ,but come to china he being portrayed as a woman.

  I i doubt some rightfulness of buddhism teaching and tradition.

  And nowadays ,most ppl tend to do image worshipping ,which is far away from buddha's teaching,

   

• An Eternal Now

  4 Jun 08, 15:04

  Originally posted by rokkie:

  So i think buddhism is only applied to some ppl.If all the ppl in the country practice that,definitely he will be weaken in military force.

  I have no time to reply right everything now, will do later. But the statement of military force isn't true.

  Buddha has made rules to prevent people in military from renouncing as monk.

  Also, the Buddha recommends the kings to have a powerful military force for defence, saying that it is one of the factors for a successful nation. He personally gave a list of advises for the kings to lead a successful country, so don't think that he doesn't care about the welfare of state.

  But, he is against using military for aggressive purpose.

  BTW, military service in Singapore is compulsory. I'll be serving 2 years national service in 2 years time.

  Even though non-(aggressive)violence is emphasized, Buddhism is not a sissy pacifist religion ;)

• Display Name

  4 Jun 08, 16:59

  Originally posted by rokkie:

  thx for the mindful reply,i think different sages create different system to concepulise the world.Buddhism is afte hinduism ,and hinduism claim to be the origin of all the religion in the world,maybe right ,because it's the most ancient systemised religion in the world. 

  Some hindus always think that way, but they fail to see that buddhism and hindusm teaching are so....much different.

  Originally posted by rokkie:

  And buddhism also got Theravana and mahayana tradition ,chinese trend to adhere to the latter one,which coincide characteristics of chinese,who tend to like talk but not much practice,in fact chinese is race tend to not believe in any deity.This have been shown in confucius analect.未知生焉知死.or�罕言性与天�.and the difference and similarity between india and china is quite intriguing,india is more soft empty ,simliar to Taoism ,but china,not only Taoism but also confucius who mention balance alot.So why india cannot set up a strong military force ,and colonized by other country many years,it think this is the reason,indian is too soft,like taoism ,who also emphasize on softness,but fail to raise up a theory for military ,taoism teach 兵者�详之物,大兵过�必有凶年.So in possesing that teaching,ppl cannot hardly set up any strong military force,so nowadays ,chinese character and language still survive to date.But india fail to protect their own language and culture.
  So i think buddhism is only applied to some ppl.If all the ppl in the country practice that,definitely he will be weaken in military force.

  mahayana is not the same as "talk without practice". In fact, it is the spirit of mahayana that ensured the continuity of buddhism in china and entire eastern asia.
  There was no India during the invasion from middle east, there are only many small kingdoms. So the issue is not soft of strong. A hard country that pays too much attention on military development will have no money in long term.
  China is spared from this ill fate because there is a 秦始皇 that unite the country and most importantly å­”å­�that unite the culture.
  King Asoka unite India as a country but not as a culture that's why India only unite for a short while then breaks apart.
  Same religion buddhism end up having 2 different development in the 2 countries. So, it is not the buddhism teaching that cause the issue.

   

  Originally posted by rokkie:

  At some era of chinese history.Some master tend to sit and meditate for months and years.And the monks become inactive,weak.So some buddhist pioneers critize that tradition,said buddhism should have more resposiblity to society.And that tradition become named 人间佛教.So after buddhism spread to china,some tradition become quite different to original buddhism,like buddha used to eat mean,u can kown it from after buddha practive ascetic way in the gungle for six year ,he drink乳糜 from a sheep keeper.And buddha himself married and have child.But in china one emperor forbid monks to eat meat.And in india Kuanyin is a man ,but come to china he being portrayed as a woman.

  I i doubt some rightfulness of buddhism teaching and tradition.

  And nowadays ,most ppl tend to do image worshipping ,which is far away from buddha's teaching,

  I don't see much difference between "original buddhism" and "mahayana buddhism" other than the culture and custom.
  One as a buddhist should understand dharma is about ways to purify our minds and make us more compassionate and wise. What food to eat, use fork or chopstick, where to sleep is something that is not the core of dharma and can change from culture to culture.
  Kuanyin is a maha bodhisatva that can manifest in anyform, not just female or male, he can even manifest as a wrathful deity depends on the needs of the sentient beings.
  When there is any doubt on dharma, we can always refer to the sutra and the 4 dharma seals. If you can't understand the ancient language, then ask your dharma teacher.

• An Eternal Now

  4 Jun 08, 17:02

  No offence really to any religions.

  But the teachings of Dependent Origination and Emptiness by Buddha is so different from the teachings of other religions.

  Even the great mystics with transcendental experiences must bow down to the wisdom of Buddha on Dependent Origination.

  Both our moderators Longchen and Thusness can testify that.

  Longchen came from the Western/Christian mystical circles.

  Thusness used to practice Taoism and Hinduism.

  Both had transcendental experiences even before knowing Buddhism.

  Both of them now come to realise the depths of the wisdom of Buddha through direct experience.

  Even if you have faith, I guess you can only appreciate so much until you see the depths and profundity through experience!

  Namo Shakyamuni Buddha!

  ----------------------
  

  We need a great deal of merit to have the open-mindedness to really let Siddhartha's teachings benefit our mind stream. Traditionally, before receiving teachings the students would formally request the teachings, make praises and offerings, dedicate the merit and so forth.

  To remind us of the preciousness of the teachings of cause, condition and effect, we pay homage to the Buddha who taught interdependence.

   

  Teaching the arising from interdependence, No cessation, no birth, No nihilism, no eternalism, No coming, no going, Free from many meanings, free from one meaning, You, the teacher of peace, who removes complexity, The perfect buddha, the best among men, I prostrate to you.

   

  Source: http://siddharthasintent.org/community/library

• An Eternal Now

  4 Jun 08, 19:43

  Originally posted by rokkie:

  chan is important ,but some times ,fall into meditation criteria only,someone critisize that,seems meditation(打�) is the only way to awaken,seems that who can meditate longer who claim to be superior,make every monk inactive,as nagarjana said we have to take the middle way.not extreme way

  Hi rokkie, meditation is important but we should also understand that grounding in reality in daily activities and remaining still, undistracted, calm, and aware is equally important. Even after we have some meditation experience we have to bring it to our daily lives, otherwise there will be a gap and separation between meditation and living. We have to learn how to fully engage in activities and yet be fully authenticated with Reality. This gap is not easy to bridge especially prior to certain levels of insights and experience but we should do our best.

  Also, on the other hand, it is possible to have certain experience (of non-duality, or of I AM/Eternal Witness) and extend the experience/practice to daily living, but this does not mean we can forgo sitting meditation. Some practitioners with certain realisation (of what I mentioned above) thought they can forego meditation, but they are mistaken. Because sitting meditation allows us to experience certain aspects that cannot be experienced by daily living practice alone... for us to progress. Hence, both are equally needed.

  I have pasted an article, written by my local dharma teacher many years ago on practicing in movement. Hope it helps.

  But do note that we should discipline ourselves and find time to sit and meditate, in fact my local dharma teacher started to meditate at least 1 hour without fail everyday (or more) after my taiwanese teacher emphasized the importance of it... of course, he equally emphasize practicing in daily lives and said there should be no gap and separation between movement and stillness. And he often said that the bodhisattva has no time to sit around (fully engages in activities selfless service for sentient beings)... but yet he still sits many hours a day Of course he doesn't mean literally that bodhisattvas cannot meditate, but that we must equally practice in daily living.

  For us, after my Taiwanese Teacher comes to Singapore and 传 法, we are advised to meditate at least 1/2 hour a day or more. My Taiwanese teacher would make his students sit more than 1 hour with him. He himself sits, if I remember... something like 4 or 6 hours everyday, because he has now moved into his dharma center and has much time to himself. He is a lay person, though.

  Our moderator longchen recently left his job and increased his meditation hours. This provided the conditions that gave rise to his recent new and deepening experiences and insights.

  I remember our moderator Thusness told me years back that after his retirement (this or next year) he want to have at least 4 hours a day to meditate. He even thought of retreating to somewhere in China (some mountains? lol) for a period of time...

  But do also take note that after the awakening of non-duality is stabilized, meditation takes secondary role and is not seen as a means to enter a stage of experience -- because non-duality is the ever-present nature of reality, not a stage. There is no entry and exit. Nevertheless, it is still 'healthy' to meditate -- just like exercising is healthy for the body, but still we don't need to become super muscle builders. The Buddha, even after attaining full enlightenment, still spends some time each day meditating.

  Anyway back to Thusness... he's only 40... but he has a stable financial status... can't reveal so much in public! LOL. I think he is like Vimalakirti ;) That's why you seldom see him post here, he's always so busy. Fully engaged in activities yet non-dual! So non-dual certainly isn't just experienced in meditation :)

  (p.s. Vimalakirti: a bodhisattva of the highest order, on par with such figures as Manjushri, who, in order to develop living beings, lives as a layman in the crowded metropolis of Vaishali, participating in business and government and teaching the dharma in accordance with conditions.)

  Anyway here's the article by my local dharma teacher --

  ä¿� æŒ� 觉 ç…§ 动 中 ä¿®     自 è’™ æ�© 师 圣 å¼€ 上 人 ä¼  授 法 è¦� 之 å�Žï¼Œ 有 空 æ—¶ å°± 打 å�� ä¿® 法， 没 空 æ—¶ 一 è¿ž æ•° 天 或 是 æ•° 月 也 éš¾ å¾— 打 å�� 一 次。 如 æ­¤ æ–­ æ–­ ç»­ ç»­ ä¿® 法 大 约 å�� 多 年， 大 部 分 ä¿® 法 æ—¶ é—´ 都 在 动 中ã€� å¿™ 中。 最 è¿‘ 两 年， å¼€ 始 为 自 å·± 固 定 é�™ å�� ä¿® 法 çš„ æ—¶ 间， 但 是 å¾€ å¾€ 事 与 æ„¿ è¿�， æ¯� 当 è¦� å¼€ 始 é�™ å�� 时， 常 有 电 è¯� 或 是 æ›´ é‡� è¦� çš„ 事 ç­‰ ç�€ 处 ç�†ï¼Œ 总 是 å¿™ 完 一 件 事 å�ˆ 一 件 事， æ—  法 固 定 一 个 大 家 都 未 å…¥ ç�¡ çš„ æ—¶ é—´ æ�¥ ä¿® 法， å�ª 好 选 æ‹© å�ˆ 夜 å�� 二 点 å�� 到 一 点， 结 æžœ ä¿® 法 之 å�Žï¼Œ ç²¾ 神 奕 奕， éš¾ 于 å…¥ 眠， å°± å�š å…¶ ä»– 阅 读 或 æ•´ ç�† æ–‡ 件 ç­‰ 事 务， 结 æžœ 一 æ‹– å°± 到 å�ˆ 夜 三 æ—¶ æ‰� å…¥ ç�¡ï¼Œ 次 æ—¥ å…« æ—¶ å�ˆ è¦� èµ· 身 上 ç�­ï¼Œ è¿ž ç»­ 下 æ�¥ï¼Œ æ•´ 个 ç�¡ 眠 çš„ 生 ç�† æ—¶ é—´ 大 å�— å¹² 扰， 有 æ�Ÿ 身 体 å�¥ 康， ç»� 过 一 番 å�� æ€�， 决 定 采 用 éš� 缘 é�™ å�� ä¿® 法（ 有 æ—¶ é—´ å°± å��， 没 æ—¶ é—´ å°± ä¸� å��）。 白 天 å°± å¿™ 于 丈 夫 çš„ 事 业， æ—¥ ç�† 万 机， å�´ 是“ æŒ� 觉 ä¸� 失”， æ—¶ æ—¶“ 与 ä½› å�Œ 在” 如 å�Œ 呼 å�¸ 一 样， è¦� æ´» ç�€ å°± ä¸� 能 离 å¼€ 空 气， è¦� 解 脱 自 在， å…‰ 明 觉 照， å°± ä¸� 能 离 å¼€“ 觉”。 动 中 ä¿® 法， 是 在 å¿™ 碌 çš„ 人ã€� 事ã€� 物 中 ä¿®“ 与 觉 å�Œ 在”， å›  为 有 觉 而 知 é�““ 心” é�¢ 对 外 缘ã€� 外 境 æ—¶ 所 èµ· çš„ 生 ç�­ 相， å›  为 觉 知 而 能 够 当 下 å�³ èˆ�， ä¿� æŒ� 觉 ç…§ å�š 事， 处 ç�† 而 ä¸� 生 心 动 念。 æ¸� æ¸� 地 体 会 到 心 中 æ—¶ æ—¶ 有“ 觉”， å°± 如 一 é�¢ ç¨� å¾® å¹² 净 明 亮 çš„ é•œ å­�， 物 æ�¥ å�³ 现， 物 去 å�³ 无， ä¸� ç•™ ç—• 迹， å›  而 ä¸� 论 é�‡ 到 顺 境 或 逆 境， 好 事 或 是 å�� 事， 好 心 人 或 å�� 心 人 都 是 自 然 对 待， 内 心 ä¸� 为 所 动， éš� 缘 应 机 从 容 地 处 ç�†ï¼Œ 自 然 地 内 心 å°± 安 定 了， 当 下 三 心 å›› 相 å�³ 了， 心 中 没 有“ 过 去 çš„ 执 ç�€”，“ 现 在 çš„ 挂 ç¢�”， 对“ 未 æ�¥ çš„ æ‹… 心”。 æ—¢ 然 三 ç§� 心 都 ä¸� 起， å›› 相 é¡¿ 除， ä¸� èµ· 作 用。 å›  为 有“ 心” 对 事 相 å°± 有“ 执 ç�€”， æ•… 生 挂 ç¢� å’Œ 烦 æ�¼ï¼› å›  为 有 了 挂 ç¢�， 于 是 一 个 心 接 ç�€ 一 个 心， æ­¤ èµ· å½¼ è�½ï¼Œ æ­¤ è�½ å½¼ 起，“ 心” ä¸� å�œ 地 造 作， 对 人 相ã€� 我 相ã€� ä¼— 生 相ã€� æ—¶ é—´ 相 执 ç�€ ä¸� èˆ� ä¸� æ–­ å�‘ 外 攀 缘， æ—§ 业 未 了， å�ˆ 造 æ–° 殃， è½® 回 ä¸� æ�¯ï¼Œ 而 有“ å…­ é�“ è½® 回” 之“ 心 å�—”， 在 一 æ°” ä¸� æ�¥ 时， 内 心 如 æžœ 还 未 能 离 å¼€ è¿™ æ · çš„ è½® 转 æ–¹ å¼�， 接 ç�€ çš„ å°± 是 å…­ é�“ è½® 回 çš„ 生 æ­» ä¸� æ�¯ çš„ 业 命 之 惑 业 苦。 如 æžœ è¦� 解 脱 生 æ­» ä¸� æ�¯ çš„ å…­ é�“ è½® 回 之 苦， å°± è¦� æ—¶ æ—¶ ä¿� æŒ� ä¸� 生 ä¸� ç�­ï¼Œ 心 ä¸� 妄 动， éš� 缘 生 活， ä¸� 造 æ�¶ 业， ä¾�“ 觉” 生 智 慧， 奉 è¡Œ ä¼— 善， ä¸� èµ· 执 ç�€ï¼Œ 在 事 相 上 ä¸� 生 分 别 想， æ¸� æ¸� 地 å°± 能 体 会 到 觉 ç…§ 五 è•´ 皆 空， 度 一 切 苦 厄， 色 å�³ 是 空， 空 å�³ 是 色， 色 ä¸� 异 空， 空 ä¸� 异 色， å�— 想 è¡Œ 识， 亦 å¤� 如 是， å°± è¿™ æ · ä¿� æŒ� ä½� è¿™ æ · çš„ 心 境， 积 æž� 地 é�¢ 对 人 生， ç²¾ è¿› 于 ä½  çš„ 事 业 中， 家 业 中， 生 æ´» 中，“ 心” 与“ 境” 自 然 æ¸� æ¸� 地 寂 ç�­ 了。 è¿™ 是 真 æ­£ çš„ 净 化 人 心。 自 从 在 心 境 上 产 生 了 è¿™ ç§� 转 å�˜ 之 å�Žï¼Œ 体 会 到“ 心 生 万 法 生”，“ 心 ç�­ 万 法 ç�­”，“ è‹¥ æ—  一 切 心， 何 æ�¥ 一 切 法”， æ›´ 加 æ·± æ·± 地 æ„Ÿ å�— 到 师 父 圣 å¼€ 上 人 çš„ 大 悲 愿， ä¸� å¿� è§� ä¼— 生 生 æ­» è½® 回 苦， ä¼  法 ç»™ 弟 å­� 们， 希 望 弟 å­� 们 æ—© æ—¥“ 明 心 è§� 性” å¾— 解 脱， 与 生 æ´» 中 æ—¶ æ—¶“ 净 化 自 心”， 处 处“ 觉 ç…§ 自 在”， 利 å·± 利 人， 实 è·µ è�© è�¨ çš„ æ…ˆ 悲 心， 智 æ…§ 行， ç¦� æ…§ å�Œ 修， 接 引 æ›´ 多 有 å–„ æ ¹ ä½› 缘 çš„ 世 人 如 法 ä¿® æŒ�， 创 造 幸 ç¦� çš„ 人 生， å…± 建 幸 ç¦� çš„ 人 é—´ 净 土。    醒 群  Page(s) 1 注 ： 上篇/下篇 ä¸�包括 PDF file

   

  updated.

  And I certainly agree with Display Name that 'mahayana is not the same as "talk without practice".'

  I wonder how much more wrong can such a view be! (that mahayana is talk without practice) Where on earth did one get such an idea?? lol

  And if you understand what I wrote above (click Show), you'll have a glimpse of what Mahayana practice is like.

  BUT... only my conceptual understanding... I'm not a Bodhisattva, you have to be a Bodhisattva to really know!

• An Eternal Now

  4 Jun 08, 23:19

  Originally posted by rokkie:

   

  About the meditation ,let's why i call myself as outdoor man,really cannot subside to meditate

  You can't meditate 4 hours at one go. And you don't need to.

  Just start with 20 minutes. Or 30 minutes. As you get comfortable and start to like meditation, you can lengthen the time naturally and easily.

  When you experience the great effects of meditation, you will start to like it. People do meditation partly because it's fun. Of course, it is much more than that! The ultimate purpose is to derive fundamental insights, both on the ultimate and relative level.

  But get proper instructions.

• rokkie

  5 Jun 08, 13:57

  Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

  This is our moderator Thusness's views about sudden awakening.

  The occurence for the first few glimpses of our nature is commonly refered to as 'sudden', like flashes of lightnings because these insights into our nature are out of the conventional routine dualistic views.  But for these glimpses to occur, it is a long process.  After dissolving to certain degree the 'sense of self', 'sudden' will become irrelevant.

   

  In the Zen school utilizes koans to lead to a sudden awakening. But you still have to practice it for some time before you realise the truth.

  There is no one who can make you enlightened in one day -- unless you are of high capacity. If things were that easy, everyone will be enlightened by now. So don't think fantasies, practice hard.

  It's not the dharma that is the problem, it's YOUR problem... your 'gen qi' is not there :) Even if you meet a Zen master who teaches you the sudden path, it will not 'click'... until you have prepared a lifetime's practice for that very moment.

  Some masters however, they can become enlightened very fast. Their 'gen qi' is there. My Taiwanese teacher became enlightened 4 days after meeting my Master, because he has practiced and followed my Master for many lifetimes, including in the immediate past life he was my Master's successor and abbot of a Zen temple in Kyoto, Japan.

  BTW, my Taiwanese teacher teaches the sudden method. But ours is 'Dun4 Chao1', not 'Dun4 Wu4'.

  He said if meet the right person, he will be enlightened on the spot... and there are such persons. But how many have the 'gen qi' these days? Very few. I have been transmitted the dharma, but I'm not yet enlightened.

  But this should not be a let down, but should turn into a strength, because you know that if you practice what is taught, the goal can surely be achieved.

  But here's an advise: if you meet someone you're confident is a Ming2 Shi1 (one who is enlightened)... follow him and practice hard.

  Also what you mean by "机锋棒�"

  机锋棒� is chinese buddhism tradition for suddenly awaken ,it's like the master suddenly ask u buddhism question,ask u to respond immediately.

   

• rokkie

  5 Jun 08, 13:59

  Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

  I have no time to reply right everything now, will do later. But the statement of military force isn't true.

  Buddha has made rules to prevent people in military from renouncing as monk.

  Also, the Buddha recommends the kings to have a powerful military force for defence, saying that it is one of the factors for a successful nation. He personally gave a list of advises for the kings to lead a successful country, so don't think that he doesn't care about the welfare of state.

  But, he is against using military for aggressive purpose.

  BTW, military service in Singapore is compulsory. I'll be serving 2 years national service in 2 years time.

  Even though non-(aggressive)violence is emphasized, Buddhism is not a sissy pacifist religion ;)

  
  But in fact indian military force very lousy,i remember it was invade by islam force ,and from then on buddhism vanished almost in india

  .But indian themselves as the coloniser said they are delicate,even the lowest class citizens are more delicate than italian,

• rokkie

  5 Jun 08, 14:10

  Originally posted by Display Name:

  Some hindus always think that way, but they fail to see that buddhism and hindusm teaching are so....much different.

  mahayana is not the same as "talk without practice". In fact, it is the spirit of mahayana that ensured the continuity of buddhism in china and entire eastern asia.
  There was no India during the invasion from middle east, there are only many small kingdoms. So the issue is not soft of strong. A hard country that pays too much attention on military development will have no money in long term.
  China is spared from this ill fate because there is a 秦始皇 that unite the country and most importantly å­”å­�that unite the culture.
  King Asoka unite India as a country but not as a culture that's why India only unite for a short while then breaks apart.
  Same religion buddhism end up having 2 different development in the 2 countries. So, it is not the buddhism teaching that cause the issue.

   

  I don't see much difference between "original buddhism" and "mahayana buddhism" other than the culture and custom.
  One as a buddhist should understand dharma is about ways to purify our minds and make us more compassionate and wise. What food to eat, use fork or chopstick, where to sleep is something that is not the core of dharma and can change from culture to culture.
  Kuanyin is a maha bodhisatva that can manifest in anyform, not just female or male, he can even manifest as a wrathful deity depends on the needs of the sentient beings.
  When there is any doubt on dharma, we can always refer to the sutra and the 4 dharma seals. If you can't understand the ancient language, then ask your dharma teacher.

  Of course buddhism and hinduism are different ,because they are totally difference religions ,hindusim worship shiva,vinshnu.buddhism worship buddha,But they have a lot connections.

  thx for letting me know the history of india ,i appreciate it.

  The core of the buddhism of different sects are similiar,but the path of awaking is different.But u know a lot of buddhist strickly follow their own tradition ,no compromise to others.I think we really need to go beyond the apprearance,but see the core of the different sects are same.So ppl could see beyond it,and follow the ultimate path to awaken easily