"soul" rebirth lifespan

• Bodhi hut

  6 Jun 08, 09:42

   

  First time i ask a question here, before i search from other source maybe would have some guide here.

  Buddhist do not believe there is a soul, but I do believe there is a soul(精神体) as i am a chinese, so I do not think of a better english word to use in this context. My question is, when a sentinent being has ended his life, there would be rebirth due to karmic forces, they will rebirth to different releams....so does this "soul" that i term as, has a lifespan, how many times can this soul contnue to go for rebirth, I read that buddha also has a lifespan, but it is very long that usually they put it as infinite...and sentinent being all has buddha nature, but accordance to the article i posted here in another thread, we sentinent beings are actually a manifestition of a higher heaven being, so, does our this "soul" has a expire date.

   

  When Mitreya come to this world to preech the dharma, that would be closed to the end of this world, a new world will be born again.Then what happen to those whom have not attain enlightenment and out of the six releam?

   

  Perhaps anyone here could share, but try not to post long extractred articles, maybe use your own words to explain, thanks. 

• longchen

  6 Jun 08, 10:45

  Hi Bodhi Hut,

  Just a sharing.

  The word soul means different things to different people. So quite hard to define. Some people define the alaya as the soul. But you must bear in mind that even the alaya has no inherent existence.

  But your true nature is timeless. That means 'it' will go on for infinity.

  It is far better to have an authentic experience, then to find out from the internet. Many information on the internet are not complete truth. You will get even more confused.

   

• Bodhi hut

  6 Jun 08, 12:23

   

  I know what you mean....what u mean by authentic experience????

  Have you come across any sutra that said this "soul" will stop rebirth? Deva also has a lilfespan, so our this "soul" is it infinite as you mentioned? and it is only a transformation from a form to another form( like energy theories)

   

  What happen to those sentinent beings whom unable to escape from samsara after Mitreya come...if it is infinite so wouldnt it (soul) not end with the world or any allocation to the (soul) elsewhere...lower releams? or wait till the new world then come back as sentinent being again...

   

  Such question just curious me..however it is also quite meaningless at times to look indepth to such question...hahha...just curious so just post..

• longchen

  6 Jun 08, 13:11

  Originally posted by Bodhi hut:

   

  I know what you mean....what u mean by authentic experience????

  Have you come across any sutra that said this "soul" will stop rebirth? Deva also has a lilfespan, so our this "soul" is it infinite as you mentioned? and it is only a transformation from a form to another form( like energy theories)

   

  What happen to those sentinent beings whom unable to escape from samsara after Mitreya come...if it is infinite so wouldnt it (soul) not end with the world or any allocation to the (soul) elsewhere...lower releams? or wait till the new world then come back as sentinent being again...

   

  Such question just curious me..however it is also quite meaningless at times to look indepth to such question...hahha...just curious so just post..

  By 'authentic experience', i meant meditate to directly experience the timeless Presence (Buddha Nature) which is your true nature.

  Once, you have that direct experience, you will know, without any doubt, that the true nature is forever.

  "Soul' is very subjective... All kinds of teaching will say all kind of things that are contradictory to each other. And where does soul starts and you the personality end? You get what i mean?

  To me, the closest match to the word 'soul' is the subconscious mind.

  But, then you only will experience the sensate reality. If you do not experience it, then it does not exist for you.

  That is why 'emptiness' in Buddhism is such a profound truth. For people who doesn't realise it, they will alway think that there is something 'beyond' their existence.

  For in truth, there is no something beyond what is being experienced. For example, if you meditate and experience the 'soul', then the soul only exist for you at that moment. That moment is just right for the conditions of the 'soul' to be experienced.

  By that definition, 'soul' is nothing but that experience of pure 'intent' that is being experienced at that moment.

  Through this way of understanding, you will know that there is no separate entity elsewhere that is call the soul. It is just another altered state of your own consciousness.

  Once, this is known, the lifespan of the soul becomes a meaningless question.

  Do you get what i mean?

• An Eternal Now

  6 Jun 08, 15:38

  Originally posted by Bodhi hut:

   

  First time i ask a question here, before i search from other source maybe would have some guide here.

  Buddhist do not believe there is a soul, but I do believe there is a soul(精神体) as i am a chinese, so I do not think of a better english word to use in this context. My question is, when a sentinent being has ended his life, there would be rebirth due to karmic forces, they will rebirth to different releams....so does this "soul" that i term as, has a lifespan, how many times can this soul contnue to go for rebirth, I read that buddha also has a lifespan, but it is very long that usually they put it as infinite...and sentinent being all has buddha nature, but accordance to the article i posted here in another thread, we sentinent beings are actually a manifestition of a higher heaven being, so, does our this "soul" has a expire date.

   

  When Mitreya come to this world to preech the dharma, that would be closed to the end of this world, a new world will be born again.Then what happen to those whom have not attain enlightenment and out of the six releam?

   

  Perhaps anyone here could share, but try not to post long extractred articles, maybe use your own words to explain, thanks. 

  Like Longchen said, the term 'soul' has different meanings.

  But in either case Buddhism, with the teaching of No-Self and Emptiness cannot accept that there is an entity with inherent existence that is called the soul.

  However, there are things in Buddhism that appears (but are not!) close to that.

  For example, when we die, our 7th consciousness (consciousness of a 'self', please understand they arise based on delusions -- there is actually no 'self') after entering the bardo state for some time, will exit the body and transform into an antarabhava. It's like a 5 year old (or 7 year old cant remember) tall body, its invisible to human eyes... like a ghost. But those with psychic vision can see them. They usually linger around until the conditions for rebirth takes place, within the 49 days. If they didn't get the opportunity (too much attachment, refusal to move on, etc) after 49 days they can turn into a ghost and to be reborn will be a much more difficult task then on.

  However, if one is enlightened, the 7th consciousness (consciousness of a 'self') will dissolve and transform into wisdom. All other consciousnesses can also transform into wisdom. Then rebirth will not take place.

  Also when I say 'exit the body' it seems as if there is a fixed soul entity attached to the body. This is not the case, just that the conditionings are there for consciousness to take place along with a physical form/body. Now when death happens, the condition of the body is gone, and the conditions are there for 7th consciousness to transform into an antarabhava.

  Consciousness is actually not a 'fixed entity' or a 'self', it's a state of being which changes every moment, depending on conditions. Consciousness arises dependent on conditions, without conditions, no consciousness arise. Hence, Consciousness is also empty and is inseparable from conditions. When the conditions of life is no longer there -- i.e. body dies, the ripening of our karma will lead to rebirth in any of the 6 realms -- unless you are liberated, in which case then nirvana "occurs". (please see the post below, Thusness explains it in much simpler terms)

  As Thusness said years back, Next is her experience of ‘astral traveling’, if she is in a stage of absorption and then out of a sudden awareness, the eyes of awareness may allow her to witness something that is altogether different from the physical place but this does not necessary mean that ‘consciousness’ has left and re-enter the body. Consciousness is propelled by causes and conditions. According to her conditions of absorption and clarity, just IS.

  I will try to post more regarding Conditions and Consciousness, and hopefully it will all be clear to you all.

• An Eternal Now

  6 Jun 08, 16:13

  Originally posted by Bodhi hut:

   

  I know what you mean....what u mean by authentic experience????

  Have you come across any sutra that said this "soul" will stop rebirth? Deva also has a lilfespan, so our this "soul" is it infinite as you mentioned? and it is only a transformation from a form to another form( like energy theories)

   

  What happen to those sentinent beings whom unable to escape from samsara after Mitreya come...if it is infinite so wouldnt it (soul) not end with the world or any allocation to the (soul) elsewhere...lower releams? or wait till the new world then come back as sentinent being again...

   

  Such question just curious me..however it is also quite meaningless at times to look indepth to such question...hahha...just curious so just post..

  No, this is not a meaningless question, this is actually a good question.

  Also there's something written by our moderator Thusness a few years back, you may like to contemplate on that:

  Life (Self) is nothing other than the continuous flow of the Now Moment.
  The Now Moment ceases as it arises. This moment must completely ceased
  and serves as the CAUSE for the next moment to arise.
  Therefore Self is a process of series Self1, Self2, Self3, Self4, Self5, Self6...etc
  A fixed entity 'Self' does not exist, what really exists is a momentary Self.
  Under deep meditation, one is able to observe and sense the karmic and mental factors from moment to moment,
  it is these factors that are succeeded from moment to moment and life and life but not a fixed entity.

• An Eternal Now

  6 Jun 08, 16:38

  Originally posted by longchen:

  By 'authentic experience', i meant meditate to directly experience the timeless Presence (Buddha Nature) which is your true nature.

  Once, you have that direct experience, you will know, without any doubt, that the true nature is forever.

  "Soul' is very subjective... All kinds of teaching will say all kind of things that are contradictory to each other. And where does soul starts and you the personality end? You get what i mean?

  To me, the closest match to the word 'soul' is the subconscious mind.

  But, then you only will experience the sensate reality. If you do not experience it, then it does not exist for you.

  That is why 'emptiness' in Buddhism is such a profound truth. For people who doesn't realise it, they will alway think that there is something 'beyond' their existence.

  For in truth, there is no something beyond what is being experienced. For example, if you meditate and experience the 'soul', then the soul only exist for you at that moment. That moment is just right for the conditions of the 'soul' to be experienced.

  By that definition, 'soul' is nothing but that experience of pure 'intent' that is being experienced at that moment.

  Through this way of understanding, you will know that there is no separate entity elsewhere that is call the soul. It is just another altered state of your own consciousness.

  Once, this is known, the lifespan of the soul becomes a meaningless question.

  Do you get what i mean?

  Yes usually when people think of 8th consciousness, it can become misunderstood as a soul, as a place or a storage location. In fact it's called 'storehouse-consciousciousness', but we have to understand that it is spoken out of convention -- there is no actual permanent unchanging entity storing anything. It's just a flow of conditionings succeeding moment to moment. 8th Consciousness is also empty [not a fixed entity, doesn't have a fixed location, or anything like that]

  Thusness: Whatever you think you have a way of doing something can only take place not immediately. They can only take place as a form of imprint, very deep into your consciousness. Becomes imprint and momentum, and then resurface out as effects only at much later dates. It always work this way. This is what one has to understand. So now, this is the momentum that is preventing a person from seeing.

  Also,

  With regards to Alaya, I posted before:

  Something about the idea of storage... in Thusness's opinion we must get rid of the entire idea of there being a 'place' where seeds are being 'stored'. 'Storage' is simply spoken out of convention.

  There are always imprints and tendencies, nothing lost. It has always been like that. 'Stored' actually means an on going process to mean that the tendencies are there. But not to see it as a place keeping track of something.

   

  These tendencies/momentum/karma are our 8th consciousness in action. They are subtle and subconscious and will not be detected unless one meditates.

  Also, they will not manifest into karmic ripening UNTIL the conditions are present for them to manifest, hence for example... some people who commit tremendously evil deeds may appear to be well off, while good people may sometimes suffer their whole life.

  This is because the conditions are not yet ripe for the karmic seeds they planted this life to ripen. What they are experiencing are ripening of karmic seeds/imprints/momentum brought over from their past lives. But their rebirth would be affected their actions in their lifetime.

  For example, the beggar who was so delighted when Maha-arhat Mogallana [or Mahakasyapa?] (out of compassion) asked for the beggar's 3 drops of gruel in his bowl (he was initially saddened when he thought he had nothing to give him), and as a result of this pure deed the beggar died like a week later and was reborn in the heaven of 33 gods for 90+ kalpas. For the beggar's case, the karma arising out of this pure intent is too strong and manifested very quickly. For others, it will not manifest until a long time later.

  The continuity of karmic seeds spanning over lifetimes may seem that we have a fixed 'soul' or a 'self'. In actuality, it is just the succession of our sub-conscious karmic tendencies over lifetimes, waiting for the conditions to ripen.

• An Eternal Now

  6 Jun 08, 17:05

  Originally posted by Bodhi hut:

   

  First time i ask a question here, before i search from other source maybe would have some guide here.

  Buddhist do not believe there is a soul, but I do believe there is a soul(精神体) as i am a chinese, so I do not think of a better english word to use in this context. My question is, when a sentinent being has ended his life, there would be rebirth due to karmic forces, they will rebirth to different releams....so does this "soul" that i term as, has a lifespan, how many times can this soul contnue to go for rebirth, I read that buddha also has a lifespan, but it is very long that usually they put it as infinite...and sentinent being all has buddha nature, but accordance to the article i posted here in another thread, we sentinent beings are actually a manifestition of a higher heaven being, so, does our this "soul" has a expire date.

   

  When Mitreya come to this world to preech the dharma, that would be closed to the end of this world, a new world will be born again.Then what happen to those whom have not attain enlightenment and out of the six releam?

   

  Perhaps anyone here could share, but try not to post long extractred articles, maybe use your own words to explain, thanks. 

  Now, with the above understanding, I believe I can answer your topic much better.

  As you can see, there is no fixed or separate entity called 'Soul'. If anything, 'soul' should only be considered as a conventional name refering to our subconscious, but our subconscious is also not an entity but one whole flow of conditionings succeeding moment to moment.

  So whether "soul expires" is irrelevant. There is no fixed thing called "self", "soul", that can expire, or annihilate. But....

• rokkie

  6 Jun 08, 17:07

  so what could be recognized as self or same person when rebirthing in the samsara.Since the body extinguished,but the spirite in the mind cycle in samsara?

• An Eternal Now

  6 Jun 08, 17:21

  Originally posted by rokkie:

  so what could be recognized as self or same person when rebirthing in the samsara.Since the body extinguished,but the spirite in the mind cycle in samsara?

  Please understand this, written by Thusness, carefully:

   

  Life (Self) is nothing other than the continuous flow of the Now Moment.
  The Now Moment ceases as it arises. This moment must completely ceased
  and serves as the CAUSE for the next moment to arise.
  Therefore Self is a process of series Self1, Self2, Self3, Self4, Self5, Self6...etc
  A fixed entity 'Self' does not exist, what really exists is a momentary Self.
  Under deep meditation, one is able to observe and sense the karmic and mental factors from moment to moment,
  it is these factors that are succeeded from moment to moment and life and life but not a fixed entity.

   

  No soul, no atman or spirit.

  'Spirit' may be referred to our luminous nature, but should not be understood as a soul or a self or an entity.

• An Eternal Now

  6 Jun 08, 17:29

  Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

  Now, with the above understanding, I believe I can answer your topic much better.

  As you can see, there is no fixed or separate entity called 'Soul'. If anything, 'soul' should only be considered as a conventional name refering to our subconscious, but our subconscious is also not an entity but one whole flow of conditionings succeeding moment to moment.

  So whether "soul expires" is irrelevant. There is no fixed thing called "self", "soul", that can expire, or annihilate. But....

  ------------------------------------

  Stomachache. Condition arose to go toilet.

  Now conditions arose to continue.

  So let me continue.

  ....So whether "soul expires" is irrelevant. There is no fixed thing called "self", "soul", that can expire, or annihilate. But....

  ...comes the question or Nirvana (cessation). What is Nirvana, really? Isn't it the annihilation of the "I"?

  And the answer to this is, Nope, Nirvana is not the annihilation of the self.

  Because all along there is no self, what self is there to annihilate? There is only conditioned arising moment to moment.

  Nirvana hence, is defined as the absence of conditioned for further sufferings, delusions, and further re-birth.

  Please understand that birth can only take place with the Conditions of ignorance leading to the 12 interdependent links of origination.

  Without such conditions, no birth takes place, hence it is like fire blowing on fuel, without the fuel, the fire stops burning and blows out.

  Fire is not an entity, fire is constantly changing according to conditions, no two moments of fire are the same. We can't say that fire is a fixed entity that is annihilated. But when the base condition [fuel] for fire runs out, the fire is blown out. The fire stops burning, there is no more birth.

  Nirvana just means the absence of condition to give rise to further birth.

  For an arhat, even while still living, nirvana is experienced. However nirvana experienced while he is alive is known as 'nirvana with residue', while after his passing it is known as 'nirvana without residue'.

  In 'Nirvana with residue', the arhat no longer has ignorance and sufferings, but still has a body and mind.

  In 'Nirvana without residue', the body of the arhat passes away, so there is no more body/mind.

  However, a Bodhisattva returns to Samsara, and continues the work of saving sentient beings out of great compassion, and practice his way to Buddhahood.

  Does such a Bodhisattva still experience nirvana? Yes. But his Nirvana is the Nirvana of Non-Abidance. He neither abides in nirvana or samsara, he experiences no ignorance and is liberated from the effects of afflictions.

• wilsonhao

  6 Jun 08, 17:37

  Dare me to say here, but some of the teachings like there is no 'soul' is not agreeable with me in anyways. I believe Buddha did not really say that there is no 'soul' but just that our self is made up of different components like feelings and etc. There is an energy flowing throughout our rebirths in samsara that keeps us going, like the flame of a candlelight which passes on and on. You cant say that there is no flame in the candle light. Buddha said there is no 'self' because the self is ever-changing, throughout this life as well as next life and so on. The 'self' is like a water with no fixed shape and thus there is no fixed 'self', but that does not equal that no fixed 'self' means no 'self'. The 'self' is just ever-changing and acts as different entity throughout samsara, thus to speak it really, there is no 'self' in a sense. But then again, we cant dispute that we really have no 'self'. Its like a duality ; we have a 'self' , we have no 'self' .

  Just like you cant say everything is emptiness. You read that 'form does not differfrom emptiness, emptiness does not differ from form' in the heart sutra. It did not say that everything is really emptiness, nor say that everything is really not of emptiness. Its like everything is empty; everything is not empty.

• An Eternal Now

  6 Jun 08, 17:48

  Originally posted by wilsonhao:

  Dare me to say here, but some of the teachings like there is no 'soul' is not agreeable with me in anyways. I believe Buddha did not really say that there is no 'soul' but just that our self is made up of different components like feelings and etc. There is an energy flowing throughout our rebirths in samsara that keeps us going, like the flame of a candlelight which passes on and on. You cant say that there is no flame in the candle light. Buddha said there is no 'self' because the self is ever-changing, throughout this life as well as next life and so on. The 'self' is like a water with no fixed shape and thus there is no fixed 'self', but that does not equal that no fixed 'self' means no 'self'. The 'self' is just ever-changing and acts as different entity throughout samsara, thus to speak it really, there is no 'self' in a sense. But then again, we cant dispute that we really have no 'self'. Its like a duality ; we have a 'self' , we have no 'self' .

  Just like you cant say everything is emptiness. You read that 'form does not differfrom emptiness, emptiness does not differ from form' in the heart sutra. It did not say that everything is really emptiness, nor say that everything is really not of emptiness. Its like everything is empty; everything is not empty.

  That's right!

  No soul/no self should not be understood as the nihilistic understanding of non-existence.

  It just means 'self' is made up of 5 skhandas, arising moment to moment, and no moment are the same. There is no fixed self but self1, self2, self3 etc....

• An Eternal Now

  6 Jun 08, 17:51

  
  
  Excerpts from http://www.angelfire.com/indie/anna_jones1/fundamental.html
  
  In the ultimate sense, there do not even exist such things as
  mental states, i.e. stationary things. Feeling, perception,
  consciousness, etc., are in reality mere passing processes of feeling,
  perceiving, becoming conscious, etc., within which and outside of
  which no separate or permanent entity lies hidden.
  
  Thus a real understanding of the Buddha's doctrine of kamma and
  rebirth is possible only to one who has caught a glimpse of the
  egoless nature, or //anattata//, and of the conditionality, or
  //idappaccayata//, of all phenomena of existence. Therefore it is said
  in the //Visuddhimagga// (Chap. XIX):
  
   
   Everywhere, in all the realms of existence, the noble disciple 
         sees only mental and corporeal phenomena kept going through the 
         concatenation of causes and effects. No producer of the 
         volitional act or kamma does he see apart from the kamma, no 
         recipient of the kamma-result apart from the result. And he is 
         well aware that wise men are using merely conventional language, 
         when, with regard to a kammical act, they speak of a doer, or 
         with regard to a kamma-result, they speak of the recipient of the 
         result. 
           
           No doer of the deeds is found,
           No one who ever reaps their fruits; 
           Empty phenomena roll on:
           This only is the correct view.
           
           And while the deeds and their results
           Roll on and on, conditioned all,
           There is no first beginning found,
           Just as it is with seed and tree. ... 
           
           No god, no Brahma, can be called
           The maker of this wheel of life:
           Empty phenomena roll on,
           Dependent on conditions all.
  
  
  
  In the //Milindapanha// the King asks Nagasena:
  
    
  "What is it, Venerable Sir, that will be reborn?"
  
    "A psycho-physical combination (//nama-rupa//), O King."
  
    "But how, Venerable Sir? Is it the same psycho-physical
    combination as this present one?"
  
    "No, O King. But the present psycho-physical combination produces
    kammically wholesome and unwholesome volitional activities, and
    through such kamma a new psycho-physical combination will be
    born."

• An Eternal Now

  6 Jun 08, 17:54

  
  

  Dukkham-eva hi na koci dukkhito,

  Karako na, kiriya va vijjati,

  Atthi nibuti, na nibbuto puma,

  Maggam-atthi, gamako na vijjati.

  "Mere suffering is, not any sufferer is found

  The deeds exist, but no performer of the deeds:

  Nibbana is, but not the man that enters it,

  The path is, but no wanderer is to be seen."

  Kammassa Karako natthi,

  Vipakassa ca vedako,

  Suddhadhamma pavattanti,

  Ev 'etam sammadassanam.

  No doer of the deeds is found,

  No one who ever reaps their fruits,

  Empty phenomena roll on,

  This view alone is right and true.

  Na hettha devo brahma va,

  Samsarass-atthi karako,

  Suddhadhamma pavattanti,

  Hetusambharapaccaya ti.

  No god, no Brahma, may be called,

  The maker of this wheel of life,

  Empty phenomena roll on,

  Dependent on conditions all." Visuddhimagga XIX.

• wilsonhao

  6 Jun 08, 17:58

  Yah, but what is misunderstood many people in the world is that 'no self' means to them that we do not exist. And 'emptiness' means nihilism and everything around them is all fake and not real.

  This thinking is very dangerous. Think about it. If Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva spoke that everything is 'emptiness', then why would He have to help sentient beings and practice compassion when all is just emptiness? If we hold on to the theory of nihilism, then when we see people dying, we wont help. Why? Because their death and experience is all emptiness and since its emptiness why do we need to save them? Thats really a WRONG view.

  'Emptiness does not differ from form' 'Form does not differ from emptiness'. All things are empty, but then again, they are not empty in another sense. They exist and they do not exist because they are bound by time and moment.

• An Eternal Now

  6 Jun 08, 18:06

  Originally posted by wilsonhao:

  Yah, but what is misunderstood many people in the world is that 'no self' means to them that we do not exist. And 'emptiness' means nihilism and everything around them is all fake and not real.

  This thinking is very dangerous. Think about it. If Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva spoke that everything is 'emptiness', then why would He have to help sentient beings and practice compassion when all is just emptiness? If we hold on to the theory of nihilism, then when we see people dying, we wont help. Why? Because their death and experience is all emptiness and since its emptiness why do we need to save them? Thats really a WRONG view.

  'Emptiness does not differ from form' 'Form does not differ from emptiness'. All things are empty, but then again, they are not empty in another sense. They exist and they do not exist because they are bound by time and moment.

  Totally agree with you.

  And what is no self?

  No self means right now, sensation of touch on keyboard!

  Sound of keyboard typing!

  Words appearing on screen!

  But no separate experiencer. Just that.

  To understand No-Self is not to think in terms of existence or non existence.

  It is to live fully in this very moment, as the pure action without doer, as the pure sensation without perceiver.

  It is Alive, it is NOT dead.

• An Eternal Now

  6 Jun 08, 18:11

  BTW I have to add, realisation No-Self is not just living fully in this very moment.

  An insight has to occur, a quantum shift of perception. Then one will realise that all along, there has never been a separate self, perceiver, or doer. It is not a stage to enter, no effort is necessary, only natural luminosity shining everywhere.

  That is why diligent practice of mindfulness, with right views, is necessary to uncover our true nature.

  Our Moderator Thusness:

  http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html

   

  4. Presence as Mirror Bright Clarity

  
  I got in touch with Buddhism in 1997. Not because I wanted to find out more about the experience of ‘Presence’ but rather the teaching of impermanence syncs deeply with what I experience in life. I am faced with the possibility of losing all my wealth and more by financial crisis. At that point in time I have no idea that Buddhism is so profoundly rich on the aspect of ‘Presence’. The mystery of life cannot be understood, I seek for a refuge in Buddhism to alleviate my sorrows caused by the financial crisis but it turned out to be the missing key towards experiencing total presence.
  
  I wasn’t that resistant then about the doctrine of ‘no-self’ but the idea that all phenomenon existence is empty of an inherent ‘self’ or ‘Self’ did not quite get into me. Are they talking about the ‘Self’ as a personality or ‘Self’ as ‘Eternal Witness’? Must we do away even with the ‘Witness’ itself or the Witness is another illusion itself?
  
  There is thinking, no thinker
  There is sound, no hearer
  Suffering exists, no sufferer
  Deeds there are, no doer
  
  I was meditating the above stanza deeply…about its meaning until one day, suddenly I heard ‘tongss…’, it was so clear, there was nothing else, just the sound and nothing else! And ‘tongs…’ resounding…. It was so clear, so vivid!
  
  That experience is so familiar, so real and so clear. It is the same experience of “I AM”….it is without thought, without concepts, without intermediary, without anyone there, without any in-between…What is it? IT is Presence! But this time it is not ‘I AM’, it is not asking ‘who am I’, it is not the pure sense of “I AM”, it is ‘TONGSss….’, the pure Sound…
  Then come Taste, just the Taste and nothing else….
  The heart beats…..
  the Scenery…
  
  There is no gap in between, no longer a few months gap for it to arise…
  There never was a stage to enter, no I to cease and never has it existed
  There is no entry and exit point…
  There is no Sound out there or in here…
  There is no ‘I’ apart from the arising and ceasing…
  The manifold of Presence….
  Moment to moment Presences unfolds…

  Presence is the Crystal Bright Clarity

   

  Updated comments: Insight into no-self has arisen but non-dual experience is still not stabilized. The tendency to experience as a clear mirror reflecting still persist, however, the attention is shifted to experiencing pure presence rest in being authenticated by mere phenomenon. There is no more resistance towards phenomena manifestation, the ‘illusion’ of a background is seen and effort to sink back to a void background diminishes substantially.

• An Eternal Now

  6 Jun 08, 18:15

  BTW, the many Zen Masters get enlightened after hearing a sound, perhaps something breaks. Or through seeing something.

  And suddenly got enlightened.

  Because the illusion of duality between the perceiver and the sound has dissolved.

  Like a famous Zen Master said when he got his enlightenment, "When I heard the bell ring, suddenly there was no 'I' and no 'bell,' just the ringing."

• wilsonhao

  6 Jun 08, 18:20

  Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

  BTW, the many Zen Masters get enlightened after hearing a sound, perhaps something breaks. Or through seeing something.

  And suddenly got enlightened.

  Because the illusion of duality between the perceiver and the sound has dissolved.

  Like a famous Zen Master said when he got his enlightenment, "When I heard the bell ring, suddenly there was no 'I' and no 'bell,' just the ringing."

  Hmm, i was wondering this question. In Zen, there are many practinioners who have got their enlightenment. But i am wondering if their enlightenment is the same enlightenment that Buddha attained. Because, as you have known, Sakyamuni had practiced dharma as a bodhisattva in thousands of previous lives, and became a Buddha thus.

• An Eternal Now

  6 Jun 08, 18:24

  Originally posted by wilsonhao:

  Hmm, i was wondering this question. In Zen, there are many practinioners who have got their enlightenment. But i am wondering if their enlightenment is the same enlightenment that Buddha attained. Because, as you have known, Sakyamuni had practiced dharma as a bodhisattva in thousands of previous lives, and became a Buddha thus.

  There are many stages of enlightenment, there are 10 bhumis for Bodhisattva path, and 4 stages for Arhat path.

  Even after an initial glimpses, one has to deepen his enlightenment experience and uncover deeper insights.

• An Eternal Now

  6 Jun 08, 18:43

  BTW, one has to build up a lot a lot of merits and wisdom to attain the omniscience of the Buddha. That would take many many lifetimes.

  So just having the sort of enlightenment mentioned is not enough for Buddhahood. However, it is possible to achieve liberation in this lifetime.

  If you seek Buddhahood, you have to give rise to Bodhicitta...

• Bodhi hut

  6 Jun 08, 18:44

  Woa so many replies..i am in a rush now, but read abit here and there...

   

  Actually my question can be mislead to some replies...

   

  Let me put in simple terms..or maybe when i am back i use chinese better..

  What do you call the "thing" that go to the releam and rebirth...

  if one is unable to enlighten....does he remain to rebirth n rebirth..the so call"the thing" does it has a expiring lifespan...

   

  What happen to the sentinent beings whom are unable to enlighten after Mitreya arrive....where they end...of end with this world..

   

  I read some replies above and some already out of the question i asked..pardon me

  Maybe AEN you can use chinese to answer..i am more comfy in reading chinese especially related to buddhism stuffs...

   

  Thanks

• wilsonhao

  6 Jun 08, 19:21

  AEN sure knows better about the scriptures and he can provide a better answer with regards to your question.

  The 'thing' that you call has no expiry date. Unless attained buddhahood, one continues rebirth in samsara until attained buddhahood, like a cycle of day and night then day and night again, never ending process.

  The 'thing' should be noted to be without a beggining or an end, unlike theology which believes that we have a creator and at the end times we would all be claimed back or something. In Buddhism, we are all in the state of becoming, because we arent fixed at any point of life or time.

  After Maitreya, there is not the end of the world. Dharma will once flourish again and those who have heard the teachings of maitreya who cannot become enlightened will continue rebirth in samsara but in higher realms. Because of the karma of living beings has to ripen, the world must continue to be around so that rippening can take place. If i were to tell you tomorrow is the end of the world, how would you clear your bad karma you have previously accumulated?

• longchen

  6 Jun 08, 19:43

  Originally posted by Bodhi hut:

   

  Let me put in simple terms..or maybe when i am back i use chinese better..

  What do you call the "thing" that go to the releam and rebirth...

  if one is unable to enlighten....does he remain to rebirth n rebirth..the so call"the thing" does it has a expiring lifespan...

   

  What happen to the sentinent beings whom are unable to enlighten after Mitreya arrive....where they end...of end with this world..

   

  The answer is actually very simple...

  The "thing" is consciousness.. The "thing" is what you experience as yourself now.

  When the physical body dies, the conscoiusness changes state, but it is still consciousness. There is no some 'thing' beyond you... it is all just change of state according to conditions.

  Consciousness will go on forever.