any one aware of 四句离

• rokkie

  12 Jun 08, 15:56

  written in 楞伽�,

   

  “一ã€�异，俱ä¸�俱ã€�有无ã€�é�žæœ‰é�žæ— ã€�常ã€�无常è§�。”是《楞伽ç»�》中著å��çš„“å››å�¥”。其中，“一ã€�异”为一å�¥ï¼Œ“俱ã€�俱”为一å�¥ï¼Œ“有无ã€�é�žæœ‰é�žæ— ”为一å�¥ï¼Œ“常ã€�无常”为一å�¥ï¼›æ³›æŒ‡å¯¹å¤–é�““本体论”è§�解的å�„ç§�界说与范畴。
  例如：黑格尔将“ç»�对”界说为“有”“æ— ”“一”“异”等等范畴。佛教认为属“æ�¶è§�”，系指缺ä¹�自觉性的判断ã€�è§�解，å�³“计著妄想”，属ä¸�自觉的æ€�想范畴。佛对“å››å�¥”原则性地注释为：“ä¸�知心é‡�愚痴凡夫，å�–内外性，ä¾�于‘一异’ã€�‘俱ä¸�俱’ã€�‘有无ã€�é�žæœ‰é�žæ— ’ã€�‘常，无常’等自性习因ã€�计著妄想（è§�《楞伽å�ˆè¾™ã€‹å�·äºŒ·å»¿é¡µï¼‰”。“ä¸�知心é‡�”å�³å¯¹å¿ƒå�–“内外性”ä¸�自知觉，对自己内心的“判断”“推论”等心ç�†è¿�作中缺ä¹�自觉性，仅凭习气å�–è‘—“内外性”，设立知è§�，范畴。
  这里的“一”，作为与“异”对待的范畴，有å�Œä¸€ã€�统一ã€�太乙的æ„�味，与黑格尔“å�Œä¸€æ€§”å�«ä¹‰é¢‡ä¸ºå�»å�ˆã€‚æ•…ä¸�应å�•çº¯ä»…看作é‡�çš„“一”。“俱ã€�ä¸�俱”çš„“俱”，当应为“共相”ã€�“æ™®é��存在的东西。”近似于黑æ°�逻辑（ç�†å¿µè®ºï¼‰ä¸­çš„“具体的普é��性”。“常”——有“本体”ã€�“实体”ã€�“真实”“æ�’常”存在等å�«ä¹‰ã€‚
  顺便说明：å”�代由å�°åº¦åˆ°ä¸­å›½ä¼ æŽˆç¦…宗的达摩大师（？——642）大力æ��倡《楞伽ç»�》，将其介ç»�给中国的æ€�想界，作为“禅宗”å�°å¿ƒçš„ç»�典，ç»�æ…§å�¯ã€�传至僧璨ã€�é�“信。至弘å¿�传慧能改为传《金刚ç»�》。

• An Eternal Now

  12 Jun 08, 16:06

  Sounds interesting :)

  Prior to the realisation of non-duality and emptiness, one's mind will hold on to all sorts of dualistic and views of inherency.

  Lankavatara Sutra is really a good Sutra. It's also our moderator Thusness's favourite Sutra. He did a 2.5 hours discussion with us last year. But it should be noted that it is just a casual discussion of one's experience with the sutra, not meant to be a commentary. I wrote down the transcript in the forum. http://buddhism.sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/262408

• rokkie

  12 Jun 08, 16:12

  the lankavatara sutra u mentioned means 楞伽�, is it ?

  And i do enjoy it, in fact i buy it because i mistakably see it as 楞严ç»�, interpreted by å�—怀瑾. But i think it's more interesting, lankavatara if i'm not wrong , is the fundanmental sutra for zen, but later ppl found a diamond sutra more readable, and forget the deep and difficult lankavatara sutra, but the sutra was very comprehensive, and deep, hope everyone will read it, then they will acheive 功德

• rokkie

  12 Jun 08, 16:20

  thx for the link, i will check it when i am free

• An Eternal Now

  12 Jun 08, 16:39

  Thats right, 楞伽� = Lankavatara Sutra. It was the only sutra that Bodhidharma brought to China, the only sutra that Bodhidharma asked his students to study.

  楞严� = Shurangama Sutra. Also a great sutra, though I have only yet read the 1st Chapter and a few other parts.

• rokkie

  12 Jun 08, 16:53

  i have finished shurangama sutra, but honestly, don't remember a lot, and that sutra teach me, it's a bit dangerous to meditate without supervise,and lots of ppl claim to be enlighten, as a matter of fact, they are not, even worse some of them are fallen in hell, to be alliance of devil. which i often keep in mind that enlightenment is not a easy task.And some part of shurangama teach how to do ritual and how to build temple, some one claim that shurangama is false not done by someone else, not buddha's real teaching, like ��超, said the ten divine in the sutra (��仙), 飞行仙, 地行仙,blah blah, are concept buddhist draw from taoism, but �怀瑾,refute that.

• Bodhi hut

  12 Jun 08, 17:16

  said the ten divine in the sutra (��仙), 飞行仙, 地行仙,blah blah, are concept buddhist draw from taoism, but �怀瑾,refute that

   

  I do not remember got such phrase in leng yan jing....and meditation on leng yan jing..? i think you are referring to leng yan san mei....the mantra is strongly recommended to practise reciting...there are leng yan san mei, fa hua san mei, huayan san mei...it is a state of CHAN...

   

  You got mail!!

• rokkie

  12 Jun 08, 17:40

  thx for the mail, and i go to ur link, but it's quite lengthy, so i just search through the article, i got the followings

   

  阿难。�有从人。��正觉修三摩地。别修妄念。存想固形。游于山林人��处。有��仙。

   

  阿难，�有些众生，�得人身，在人�中�是�肯修行，�是��照��正觉�修，�是修正定，楞严大定，�闻闻自性功夫。而是�妄想识心�修，一心存想固守色身，能长生�死，故常游踪于深山穹谷，�山洞穴，人迹�到的地方，共有��仙。

   

  阿难。彼诸众生。�固�饵而�休�。食�圆�。�地行仙。

   

  第一�是地行仙。想�固形骸，长生�死，故用���物，或泡炙，或蒸晒，或�饼，或�丸，长期专心�食，永�间断。日�久了，修炼�功，�以�身益寿，身体轻清，走路快�，��地行仙。

   

  �固�木而�休�。��圆�。�飞行仙。

   

  第二�是飞行仙。想�固形骸，�食人间烟�，长期专心�食�木。如���黄精��籽����茯神�枸�之类，永�间断。日�久了，修炼�功，�以步行如飞，登山越岭，��飞行仙。

   

  �固金石而�休�。化�圆�。�游行仙。

   

  第三�是游行仙。想�固形骸，长期专心�食金石，如烹铅�煎汞�炼养丹砂，永�间断。日�久了，修炼�功，�以脱胎�骨，点石�金，能超脱而游世外，��游行仙。

   

  �固动止而�休�。气精圆�。�空行仙。

   

  第四ç§�是空行仙。为å�šå›ºå½¢éª¸ï¼Œå°±ä¸“心一致æ�¥ä¿®åŠ¨åŠŸï¼Œå�³ç»ƒæ‹³æœ¯ï¼Œå�Šä¿®é�™åŠŸï¼Œå�³ç‚¼ç²¾åŒ–气，炼气化神，炼神还虚。é�“家玉皇心å�°ç»�上说：“上è�¯ä¸‰å“�：神与气精。æ��æ��惚惚，æ�³æ�³å†¥å†¥ã€‚”这是è¦�炼神还为虚空，什么都没有，就å�¯ä»¥å…¥å®šå‡ºçª�，腾云驾雾，å�«ç©ºè¡Œä»™ã€‚

   

  �固津液而�休�。润德圆�。�天行仙。

   

  第五�天行仙。为�固形骸，专心致志��咽津液，�鼓天池，�玉液，使水���，结�内丹，永�间断。终至水�相济，功夫�就，就能内润肠胃，外润�容，�为鹤�童颜，�为物累，能乘正气，游于天上，�天行仙。

   

  �固精色而�休�。�粹圆�。�通行仙。

   

  第六�通行仙。为�固精色，故专心致志��日月之精�。一早对太阳�三百六��气，夜间对太阴亦�三百六��气。��云霞之彩色，久行��，修炼�功，就能精气潜通，形与气化，神与物通。�以穿金石�蹈水�，任�无�，��通行仙。

   

  �固咒�而�休�。术法圆�。��行仙。

   

  第七是�行仙。�固其心�专�神咒，以求延年长寿，�能严��戒，故能�妖驱魔。久行��，修炼�功。故�以养身，�以医病，�以利人济世，这类���行仙。

   

  �固�念而�休�。�忆圆�。�照行仙。

   

  第八是照行仙。�固其心，沉��念，存想顶门而出神，系心�下而�气，久行��，修炼�功，神�以出入自在，气�以上下交通，形神照应，化�精光，��照行仙。

   

  �固交�而�休�。感应圆�。�精行仙。

   

  第ä¹�是精行仙。å�šå›ºå…¶å¿ƒä»¥æˆ�交媾，易ç»�：“干为父，å�¤ä¸ºæ¯�，干三连，å�¤å…­æ–­ã€‚”ç”·å­�到å��å…­å²�时就乾å�¦æ»¡ï¼Œæ»¡åˆ™æ�Ÿï¼Œå°±å�˜ä¸ºç¦»ä¸­è™šã€‚离中之一点阳就走到å�¤å…­æ–­ä¹‹ä¸­é—´åŽ»ï¼Œå°±å�˜æˆ�å�Žä¸­æ»¡ã€‚ä¹¾å�¦ä¸€å�˜ï¼Œæˆ�为离中虚。å�¤å�¦ä¸€å�˜ï¼Œæˆ�为å�Žä¸­æ»¡ã€‚离中虚就是婴儿，å�Žä¸­æ»¡å°±æ˜¯å¥¼å¥³ã€‚离中虚属于心ç�«ï¼Œå�Žä¸­æ»¡å±žäºŽè‚¾æ°´ï¼Œç¦»å±žé˜³ï¼Œä½†é˜³ä¸­æœ‰é˜´ï¼Œå�Žå±žé˜´ï¼Œä½†é˜´ä¸­æœ‰é˜³ã€‚é�“家说：“婴儿并奼女，相逢在黄庭。”黄庭å�³æ„�，æ„�属丕ç»�，丕è—�æ„�。

   

  在自己身中，用�水�填离�，令心�和肾水交媾，久行��，就能感应圆�，���水，得�仙胎，这就��精行仙。

   

  �固�化而�休�。觉悟圆�。��行仙。

   

  第�是�行仙。�固其心以穷�化，立志研究物��化，久而��，终得修炼�功，�生奇悟，故能与造化相通，�以呼风唤雨，移山填海，还能将四时次�调�，就��行仙。

   

  阿难。是等皆于人中链心。�修正觉。别得生�。寿�万�。休止深山或大海岛。�于人境。斯亦轮回妄想�转。�修三昧。报尽还�。散入诸趣。

• An Eternal Now

  12 Jun 08, 17:47

  About the Meditation, Rokkie is refering to the Fifty Skhanda Demon States. That is why having an enlightened person to guide a practitioner is important.

  The Fifty Skandha-Demon States:
  A Simple Explanation by the Venerable Master Hsüan Hua.
  The Shurangama Sutra, Volume VIII

  "Foreword"
  By
  Ron Epstein

   

  ---

  For over a thousand years the Shurangama Sutra has been held in great esteem in the Mahayana countries of East Asia. In China the Sutra was ranked in popularity and importance with the Lotus, Avatamsaka, and Prajna Paramita Sutras; it was also accorded imperial favor.

  One major reason for the importance of the Sutra is its final section, presented in this volume, on fifty deviant mental states associated with the Five Skandhas; ten states are described for each of the skandhas. For each state a description is given of the mental phenomena experienced by the practitioner, the causes of the phenomena and the difficulties which arise from attachment to the phenomena and misinterpretation of them. In essence what is presented is both a unique method of cataloging and classifying spiritual experience and indication of causal factors involved in the experience of the phenomena. Although the fifty states presented are by no means exhaustive, the approach taken has the potential of offering a framework for the classification of all spiritual experience, both Buddhist and non-Buddhist.

  An important causal theme of the Sutra that reaches its full development in this section is the relations of the experience of the demonic states with the failure to observe the guidelines of the moral precepts. Thus we find a link between this particular section and the Aiding Practices of the Bodhimanda described in volume six. There the elimination of lust, killing, stealing and false speech is presented as a prerequisite for correct meditational progress. In this volume the consequences of the failure to completely eliminate them are presented in terms of wrong views and encounters with demonic states, both internal and external.

  The Sutras are particularly clear and graphic exposure of wrong practice, wrong views, the wrong use of spiritual powers, and the deceptions of deviant spiritual teachers is probably one of the major factors involved in the perennial attacks on its authenticity. It is clear that the types of people it criticizes have certainly been threatened by it, and in order to preserve their own authority and views have attacked the Sutra. Unfortunately this primary motivation for discrediting the Sutra has been ignored by the modern Buddhist scholarly community. It is not, however, difficult to see why this is the case.

  To examine this dimension of discourse would mean plunging into the "subjective" realm of values, that is, the Dharmic evaluation of the correctness of various historical schools and trends. For example, not in this volume but in the above mentioned one, the Buddha proclaims:

  How can thieves put on my robes and sell the Thus Come One, saying that all manners of karma one creates is just the Buddhadharma? They slander those who have left the home-life and regard Bhikshus who have taken the complete precepts as belonging to the path of the Small Vehicle. Because of such doubts and misjudgments, limitless beings fall into the unintermittent hell. (Volume 6, p. 37)

  Students of Buddhist history will have no difficulty identifying those for who such a statement would be extremely uncomfortable. The present volume profiles in vivid details deviant experiences, claims and behaviors on the part of so-called Buddhist teachers in such a way as to make it an embarrassment and threat to many, including both historical and contemporary figures.

  This volume of the Sutra cannot be dismissed as a narrow sectarian document. Its classification of non-Buddhist Indian religious traditions, through its framework of interpretation of meditational states, attributes to many of their founders very high states of consciousness and accords them unusual respect.

  The primary importance of this volume is as a unique and intensely valuable guide for Buddhist practitioners. Herein lies the value of the commentary of the Venerable Master Hsüan Hua, which accompanies the Sutra text. His erudition, Wisdom and personal experience help both to bring to life the text and to illuminate its practical use and current relevance.

  One cannot underestimate the importance of the publication of this section of the Sutra with the accompanying commentary. It is an excellent resource for the English-speaking Buddhist world in the quest for proper understanding of Buddhism. Careful study of it will lead to greater insight into one's spiritual experiences and those of others. It is also an invaluable aid to avoiding the pitfalls of association with false gurus and so-called spiritual masters, many of whom have achieve great prominence in the contemporary spiritual scene.

• An Eternal Now

  12 Jun 08, 17:50

   

  BTW meditation is not dangerous. The danger is when some meditation experience comes, you become attached, you think you're enlightened and so on. When you're not. Or actually, the true danger (demon) is any kind of grasping. We all live in the state of grasping, so we are living in a very 'dangerous' state of mind. And if we are desperate, we can kill others for our selfish reasons, to preserve our body... that is how attached we are. Meditation can actually help to reduce and eventually remove this attachment through the proper method of developing insights into the nature of consciousness... provided you cultivate/practice properly. Otherwise you simply bring your grasping into meditation.

  First of all, we have to understand that all states and experiences (境界) are merely the congregation of various causes and conditions, the congregation of the 18 dhatus. They are dependently arisen, illusory and empty appearances. (一切境界都�离�八界, 都是缘起性空, 因缘�和的�相) To grasp or abide on ANY appearance, experience, or states, is to grasp onto illusions. To realise enlightenment is to realise that all states, and experiences, i.e. All 18 Dhatus, are empty. Be careful not to grasp or seek any experiences, whether in meditation or in daily living.

  Daily living is probably more dangerous than meditation when there is attachment to skhandas. (form, feeling, perception, volition, consciousness) When there is attachment, we can cause mental, emotional, physical harm to both ourselves and others in the "real world".

  If there is a single attachment to the experiences of skhandas, realisation of our true nature cannot occur. That is why they are called 'Demons'.

  We have to have the right understanding not to seek anything external to Mind, our True Mind. If we seek anything external to Mind, we are externalist. (心外求法是外�) In reality there is nothing external/outside Mind, so to seek/search/look for anything at all is to seek illusions. Drop all that, turn inwards, and listen to the listening, be aware of the awaring. (And actually this awaring is all there is... and even if thoughts of past and future, projections of external world arises, it is awareness appearing as the presently arising thought. Awareness is appearing as everything, from what we see and feel to what we think. But we are so lost in the seeming 'reality' of our I-me-mine-projections that we couldn't see that this arising thought is simply a fleeting, dream-like appearance of Presence.)

  When we practice, the only thing we should be concerned about is our True Nature, our True Mind. And we should undistractedly remain in that awareness [of our natural state]. This is called �闻闻自性. Turn the [outward] perceiving/seeking around to perceive our true nature.

  “All you who listen here should turn inward your
  faculty of hearing to hear your own nature. This is how
  enlightenment is won.”

  ~ Shurangama Sutra

  With this right understanding, whatever experiences arise are simply allowed to be, it is neither pursued nor followed, not grasped onto, no abidance. We become clear and bright like a mirror reflecting all things but yet undistracted and unattached to all things. All phenomena are inseparable from the mirror, are only ornaments or manifestation of this mirror, which is our true nature, luminous and empty.

  When we firmly abide in this principle, we cannot go wrong.

   

  p.s. When I say 'turn inward', there isn't any turning anywhere actually. It just means a stop to the endless external seeking, which 'obscures' and makes us overlook what is everpresent. It is to allow everything to naturally reveal/express itself in clarity, as awareness.

  ---------------

  Enlightenment, True Nature, True Self, Wholeness, the Unconditioned Absolute - whatever words have been given to what is without words, unthinkable, unknowable, ungraspable - is not the effect of a cause. It is luminously present and timeless, overlooked by the roving intellect that is trying to grasp it, and obscured by the bodymind's constantly shifting moods, desires, and fears. Moment-to-moment meditation is clearly coming upon this roving and shifting, resisting and fearing mind and the urge to do something about it!... Meditation that is free and effortless, without goal, without expectation, is an expression of Pure Being that has nowhere to go, nothing to get.
  
  There is no need for awareness to turn anywhere. It's here! Everything is here in awareness! When there is a waking up from fantasy, there is no one who does it. Awareness and the sound of a plane are here with no one in the middle trying to "do" them or bring them together. They are here together! The only thing that keeps things (and people) apart is the "me"-circuit with its separative thinking. When that is quiet, divisions do not exist.
  
  ~ The Silent Question: Meditating in the Stillness of Not-Knowing by Toni Packer

  ---------------

  This open being is not something to be practiced methodically. Toni points out that it takes no effort to hear the sounds in the room; it's all here. There's no "me" (and no problem) until thought comes in and says: "Am I doing it right? Is this 'awareness?' Am I enlightened?"; Suddenly the spaciousness is gone—. The mind is occupied with a story and the emotions it generates.
  
  ~ Joan Tollifson

• An Eternal Now

  13 Jun 08, 00:43

  Updated my post above this.

• An Eternal Now

  15 Jun 08, 02:03

  Do watch this!!!

  The Presence of Being

  High: WMV

  Low: WMV

  9.57 minutes

  Many more good videos by Adyashanti at http://www.adyashanti.org/index.php?file=watchvideo

• rokkie

  16 Jun 08, 14:32

  Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

   

  BTW meditation is not dangerous. The danger is when some meditation experience comes, you become attached, you think you're enlightened and so on. When you're not. Or actually, the true danger (demon) is any kind of grasping. We all live in the state of grasping, so we are living in a very 'dangerous' state of mind. And if we are desperate, we can kill others for our selfish reasons, to preserve our body... that is how attached we are. Meditation can actually help to reduce and eventually remove this attachment through the proper method of developing insights into the nature of consciousness... provided you cultivate/practice properly. Otherwise you simply bring your grasping into meditation.

  First of all, we have to understand that all states and experiences (境界) are merely the congregation of various causes and conditions, the congregation of the 18 dhatus. They are dependently arisen, illusory and empty appearances. (一切境界都�离�八界, 都是缘起性空, 因缘�和的�相) To grasp or abide on ANY appearance, experience, or states, is to grasp onto illusions. To realise enlightenment is to realise that all states, and experiences, i.e. All 18 Dhatus, are empty. Be careful not to grasp or seek any experiences, whether in meditation or in daily living.

  Daily living is probably more dangerous than meditation when there is attachment to skhandas. (form, feeling, perception, volition, consciousness) When there is attachment, we can cause mental, emotional, physical harm to both ourselves and others in the "real world".

  If there is a single attachment to the experiences of skhandas, realisation of our true nature cannot occur. That is why they are called 'Demons'.

  We have to have the right understanding not to seek anything external to Mind, our True Mind. If we seek anything external to Mind, we are externalist. (心外求法是外�) In reality there is nothing external/outside Mind, so to seek/search/look for anything at all is to seek illusions. Drop all that, turn inwards, and listen to the listening, be aware of the awaring. (And actually this awaring is all there is... and even if thoughts of past and future, projections of external world arises, it is awareness appearing as the presently arising thought. Awareness is appearing as everything, from what we see and feel to what we think. But we are so lost in the seeming 'reality' of our I-me-mine-projections that we couldn't see that this arising thought is simply a fleeting, dream-like appearance of Presence.)

  When we practice, the only thing we should be concerned about is our True Nature, our True Mind. And we should undistractedly remain in that awareness [of our natural state]. This is called �闻闻自性. Turn the [outward] perceiving/seeking around to perceive our true nature.

  “All you who listen here should turn inward your
  faculty of hearing to hear your own nature. This is how
  enlightenment is won.”

  ~ Shurangama Sutra

  With this right understanding, whatever experiences arise are simply allowed to be, it is neither pursued nor followed, not grasped onto, no abidance. We become clear and bright like a mirror reflecting all things but yet undistracted and unattached to all things. All phenomena are inseparable from the mirror, are only ornaments or manifestation of this mirror, which is our true nature, luminous and empty.

  When we firmly abide in this principle, we cannot go wrong.

   

  p.s. When I say 'turn inward', there isn't any turning anywhere actually. It just means a stop to the endless external seeking, which 'obscures' and makes us overlook what is everpresent. It is to allow everything to naturally reveal/express itself in clarity, as awareness.

  ---------------

  Enlightenment, True Nature, True Self, Wholeness, the Unconditioned Absolute - whatever words have been given to what is without words, unthinkable, unknowable, ungraspable - is not the effect of a cause. It is luminously present and timeless, overlooked by the roving intellect that is trying to grasp it, and obscured by the bodymind's constantly shifting moods, desires, and fears. Moment-to-moment meditation is clearly coming upon this roving and shifting, resisting and fearing mind and the urge to do something about it!... Meditation that is free and effortless, without goal, without expectation, is an expression of Pure Being that has nowhere to go, nothing to get.
  
  There is no need for awareness to turn anywhere. It's here! Everything is here in awareness! When there is a waking up from fantasy, there is no one who does it. Awareness and the sound of a plane are here with no one in the middle trying to "do" them or bring them together. They are here together! The only thing that keeps things (and people) apart is the "me"-circuit with its separative thinking. When that is quiet, divisions do not exist.
  
  ~ The Silent Question: Meditating in the Stillness of Not-Knowing by Toni Packer

  ---------------

  This open being is not something to be practiced methodically. Toni points out that it takes no effort to hear the sounds in the room; it's all here. There's no "me" (and no problem) until thought comes in and says: "Am I doing it right? Is this 'awareness?' Am I enlightened?"; Suddenly the spaciousness is gone—. The mind is occupied with a story and the emotions it generates.
  
  ~ Joan Tollifson

  i think still the meditation got to be careful, because we are sometimes attached to something, it's very hard to remain unattached, maybe at some point of time, we are happy and unattached, but some other time we still attached,so remain 清净心 is important, but what's qingjingxin, it's only a state of mind, intangible.So sometimes someone claim they attain qingjingxin, but in fact they are not, someone attached to dharma, which means they are so eager to release themselve, but already contradict dharma itself, because buddha teach us 法无自性, is simply don't want us attached to dharma, most of ppl today are less 清净 compare to the folks of old time, because the society is stressful fastpaced. So find a good dharma teacher is helpful.

• An Eternal Now

  16 Jun 08, 17:18

  Originally posted by rokkie:

  i think still the meditation got to be careful, because we are sometimes attached to something, it's very hard to remain unattached, maybe at some point of time, we are happy and unattached, but some other time we still attached,so remain 清净心 is important, but what's qingjingxin, it's only a state of mind, intangible.So sometimes someone claim they attain qingjingxin, but in fact they are not, someone attached to dharma, which means they are so eager to release themselve, but already contradict dharma itself, because buddha teach us 法无自性, is simply don't want us attached to dharma, most of ppl today are less 清净 compare to the folks of old time, because the society is stressful fastpaced. So find a good dharma teacher is helpful.

  You're right, 清净心 is only a state of mind and is intangible. The true goal is not even 清净心. Any passing experiences cannot be something to be sought after, because even if we achieve it it will inevitably pass away. Even if you reach the 8th jhana, it is temporary state of absorption, it is not enlightenment or liberation and one will eventually fall away from that realm. So be careful of attaching to absorption, and know that they cannot bring enlightenment or liberation.

  There can only be an allowing, de-grasping, letting go, so that what is eternally present can be revealed. Whether your mind is 净 or not, or whether you are moving or sitting, doesn't affect our True Nature at all, just like the sun is always there, the sky is always present whether the clouds appear in the sky or not. To clear our mind of thoughts and attachment simply makes it easier for the sun/sky to be revealed. i.e. our true nature, becomes revealed as an all-pervasive empty-luminous-awareness.

  But it is also seen later that thoughts does not at all obscure the boundlessness and the freedom of the sky, or the clarity/brilliance of the sun, and furthermore the thought is INSEPARABLE from our true nature.

  Our true nature is not a particular experience, or a passing state of mind, but it is the ever-present clearing, the vast aware emptiness of infinite potentiality, and all appearances of life is not separate from that. All is It.

  Hence the goal is not about seeking peaceful states of mind. It is to know Who You Truly Are. Who You Truly Are, your Essence of Mind, which is empty luminosity, is intrinsically pure. And all phenomena are manifestation of the Essence of Mind, and hence all are equally empty, equally luminous, equally pure. All there is is One Mind. Manifestations are not dust on the mirror, the dust is the mirror. All along there is no dust, it becomes dust when we identify with a particular speck and the rest becomes dust.

  To attach oneself to a "purest state of mind" apart from One Mind is an illusion. The Purity of our true nature is NOT a dualistic 'pure vs impure'. It is a non-dualistic purity that encompasses everything: it is the nature of emptiness, and all phenomena exhibits this characteristic.

  "In our system of meditation, we neither dwell upon the mind (in contradistinction to the Essence of Mind) nor upon purity. Nor do we approve of non-activity. As to dwelling upon the mind, the mind is primarily delusive; and when we realize that it is only a phantasm there is no need to dwell on it. As to dwelling upon purity, our nature is intrinsically pure; and so far as we get rid of all delusive 'idea' there will be nothing but purity in our nature, for it is the delusive idea that obscures Tathata (Suchness). If we direct our mind to dwell upon purity we are only creating another delusion, the delusion of purity. Since delusion has no abiding place, it is delusive to dwell upon it. Purity has neither shape nor form; but some people go so far as to invent the 'Form of Purity', and treat it as a problem for solution. Holding such an opinion, these people are purity-ridden, and their Essence of Mind is thereby obscured..."

  
  师示众云：‘此门å��禅，元ä¸�著心，亦ä¸�著净，亦ä¸�是ä¸�动。若言著心，心
  元是妄，知心如幻，故无所著也。若言著净，人性本净，由妄念故，盖覆真如，
  但无妄想，性自清净。起心著净，�生净妄，妄无处所，著者是妄。净无形相，
  å�´ç«‹å‡€ç›¸ï¼Œè¨€æ˜¯å·¥å¤«ï¼›ä½œæ­¤è§�者，障自本性，å�´è¢«å‡€ç¼šã€‚’

  As 6th Ch'an/Zen Patriarch Hui Neng taught,

  Sutra of Hui Neng: Chapter 5: Dhyana

  From Dharmaweb

  The Patriarch (one day) preached to the assembly as follows:--

  In our system of meditation, we neither dwell upon the mind (in contradistinction to the Essence of Mind) nor upon purity. Nor do we approve of non-activity. As to dwelling upon the mind, the mind is primarily delusive; and when we realize that it is only a phantasm there is no need to dwell on it. As to dwelling upon purity, our nature is intrinsically pure; and so far as we get rid of all delusive 'idea' there will be nothing but purity in our nature, for it is the delusive idea that obscures Tathata (Suchness). If we direct our mind to dwell upon purity we are only creating another delusion, the delusion of purity. Since delusion has no abiding place, it is delusive to dwell upon it. Purity has neither shape nor form; but some people go so far as to invent the 'Form of Purity', and treat it as a problem for solution. Holding such an opinion, these people are purity-ridden, and their Essence of Mind is thereby obscured.

  Learned Audience, those who train themselves for 'imperturbability' should, in their contact with all types of men, ignore the faults of others. They should be indifferent to others' merit or demerit, good or evil, for such an attitude accords with the 'imperturbability of the Essence of Mind'. Learned Audience, a man unenlightened may be unperturbed physically, but as soon as he opens his mouth he criticizes others and talks about their merits or demerits, ability or weakness, good or evil; thus he deviates from the right course. On the other hand, to dwell upon our own mind or upon purity is also a stumbling-block in the Path.

  The Patriarch on another occasion preached to the assembly as follows:--

  Learned Audience, what is sitting for meditation? In our School, to sit means to gain absolute freedom and to be mentally unperturbed in all outward circumstances, be they good or otherwise. To meditate means to realize inwardly the imperturbability of the Essence of Mind.

  Learned Audience, what are Dhyana and Samadhi? Dhyana means to be free from attachment to all outer objects, and Samadhi means to attain inner peace. If we are attached to outer objects, our inner mind will be perturbed. When we are free from attachment to all outer objects, the mind will be in peace. Our Essence of Mind is intrinsically pure, and the reason why we are perturbed is because we allow ourselves to be carried away by the circumstances we are in. He who is able to keep his mind unperturbed, irrespective of circumstances, has attained Samadhi.

  To be free from attachment to all outer objects is Dhyana, and to attain inner peace is Samadhi. When we are in a position to deal with Dhyana and to keep our inner mind in Samadhi, then we are said to have attained Dhyana and Samadhi. The Bodhisattva Sila Sutra says, "Our Essence of Mind is intrinsically pure." Learned Audience, let us realize this for ourselves at all times. Let us train ourselves, practice it by ourselves, and attain Buddhahood by our own effort.

• An Eternal Now

  16 Jun 08, 17:21

  
  师示众云：‘此门å��禅，元ä¸�著心，亦ä¸�著净，亦ä¸�是ä¸�动。若言著心，心
  元是妄，知心如幻，故无所著也。若言著净，人性本净，由妄念故，盖覆真如，
  但无妄想，性自清净。起心著净，�生净妄，妄无处所，著者是妄。净无形相，
  å�´ç«‹å‡€ç›¸ï¼Œè¨€æ˜¯å·¥å¤«ï¼›ä½œæ­¤è§�者，障自本性，å�´è¢«å‡€ç¼šã€‚’

  
  ‘善知识ï¼�若修ä¸�动者，但è§�一切人时，ä¸�è§�人之是é�žå–„æ�¶è¿‡æ‚£ï¼Œå�³æ˜¯è‡ªæ€§
  �动。善知识�迷人身虽�动，开�便说他人是�长短好�，与��背；若著心
  著净，å�³éšœé�“也。’

  
  师示众云：‘善知识ï¼�冓å��å��禅？此法门中，无障无ç¢�，外於一切善æ�¶å¢ƒç•Œï¼Œ
  心念ä¸�起，å��为å��；内è§�自性ä¸�动，å��为禅。’

  
  ‘善知识ï¼�冓å��禅定？外离相为禅；内ä¸�乱为定。外若著相，内心å�³ä¹±ï¼›å¤–
  若离相，心��乱。本性自净自定，�为�境�境�乱。若�诸境心�乱者，是
  真定也。’

  
  ‘善知识ï¼�外离相å�³ç¦…，内ä¸�ä¹±å�³å®šï¼›å¤–禅内定，是为禅定。è�©è�¨æˆ’ç»�云：
  “我本性元自清净。”善知识ï¼�於念念中，自è§�本性清净，自修自行，自æˆ�ä½›é�“。’

• rokkie

  16 Jun 08, 23:11

  Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

  
  师示众云：‘此门å��禅，元ä¸�著心，亦ä¸�著净，亦ä¸�是ä¸�动。若言著心，心
  元是妄，知心如幻，故无所著也。若言著净，人性本净，由妄念故，盖覆真如，
  但无妄想，性自清净。起心著净，�生净妄，妄无处所，著者是妄。净无形相，
  å�´ç«‹å‡€ç›¸ï¼Œè¨€æ˜¯å·¥å¤«ï¼›ä½œæ­¤è§�者，障自本性，å�´è¢«å‡€ç¼šã€‚’

  
  ‘善知识ï¼�若修ä¸�动者，但è§�一切人时，ä¸�è§�人之是é�žå–„æ�¶è¿‡æ‚£ï¼Œå�³æ˜¯è‡ªæ€§
  �动。善知识�迷人身虽�动，开�便说他人是�长短好�，与��背；若著心
  著净，å�³éšœé�“也。’

  
  师示众云：‘善知识ï¼�冓å��å��禅？此法门中，无障无ç¢�，外於一切善æ�¶å¢ƒç•Œï¼Œ
  心念ä¸�起，å��为å��；内è§�自性ä¸�动，å��为禅。’

  
  ‘善知识ï¼�冓å��禅定？外离相为禅；内ä¸�乱为定。外若著相，内心å�³ä¹±ï¼›å¤–
  若离相，心��乱。本性自净自定，�为�境�境�乱。若�诸境心�乱者，是
  真定也。’

  
  ‘善知识ï¼�外离相å�³ç¦…，内ä¸�ä¹±å�³å®šï¼›å¤–禅内定，是为禅定。è�©è�¨æˆ’ç»�云：
  “我本性元自清净。”善知识ï¼�於念念中，自è§�本性清净，自修自行，自æˆ�ä½›é�“。’

  beautiful wording with enlightened thought

• rokkie

  16 Jun 08, 23:15

  Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

  You're right, 清净心 is only a state of mind and is intangible. The true goal is not even 清净心. Any passing experiences cannot be something to be sought after, because even if we achieve it it will inevitably pass away. Even if you reach the 8th jhana, it is temporary state of absorption, it is not enlightenment or liberation and one will eventually fall away from that realm. So be careful of attaching to absorption, and know that they cannot bring enlightenment or liberation.

  There can only be an allowing, de-grasping, letting go, so that what is eternally present can be revealed. Whether your mind is 净 or not, or whether you are moving or sitting, doesn't affect our True Nature at all, just like the sun is always there, the sky is always present whether the clouds appear in the sky or not. To clear our mind of thoughts and attachment simply makes it easier for the sun/sky to be revealed. i.e. our true nature, becomes revealed as an all-pervasive empty-luminous-awareness.

  But it is also seen later that thoughts does not at all obscure the boundlessness and the freedom of the sky, or the clarity/brilliance of the sun, and furthermore the thought is INSEPARABLE from our true nature.

  Our true nature is not a particular experience, or a passing state of mind, but it is the ever-present clearing, the vast aware emptiness of infinite potentiality, and all appearances of life is not separate from that. All is It.

  Hence the goal is not about seeking peaceful states of mind. It is to know Who You Truly Are. Who You Truly Are, your Essence of Mind, which is empty luminosity, is intrinsically pure. And all phenomena are manifestation of the Essence of Mind, and hence all are equally empty, equally luminous, equally pure. All there is is One Mind. Manifestations are not dust on the mirror, the dust is the mirror. All along there is no dust, it becomes dust when we identify with a particular speck and the rest becomes dust.

  To attach oneself to a "purest state of mind" apart from One Mind is an illusion. The Purity of our true nature is NOT a dualistic 'pure vs impure'. It is a non-dualistic purity that encompasses everything: it is the nature of emptiness, and all phenomena exhibits this characteristic.

  "In our system of meditation, we neither dwell upon the mind (in contradistinction to the Essence of Mind) nor upon purity. Nor do we approve of non-activity. As to dwelling upon the mind, the mind is primarily delusive; and when we realize that it is only a phantasm there is no need to dwell on it. As to dwelling upon purity, our nature is intrinsically pure; and so far as we get rid of all delusive 'idea' there will be nothing but purity in our nature, for it is the delusive idea that obscures Tathata (Suchness). If we direct our mind to dwell upon purity we are only creating another delusion, the delusion of purity. Since delusion has no abiding place, it is delusive to dwell upon it. Purity has neither shape nor form; but some people go so far as to invent the 'Form of Purity', and treat it as a problem for solution. Holding such an opinion, these people are purity-ridden, and their Essence of Mind is thereby obscured..."

  
  师示众云：‘此门å��禅，元ä¸�著心，亦ä¸�著净，亦ä¸�是ä¸�动。若言著心，心
  元是妄，知心如幻，故无所著也。若言著净，人性本净，由妄念故，盖覆真如，
  但无妄想，性自清净。起心著净，�生净妄，妄无处所，著者是妄。净无形相，
  å�´ç«‹å‡€ç›¸ï¼Œè¨€æ˜¯å·¥å¤«ï¼›ä½œæ­¤è§�者，障自本性，å�´è¢«å‡€ç¼šã€‚’

  As 6th Ch'an/Zen Patriarch Hui Neng taught,

  Sutra of Hui Neng: Chapter 5: Dhyana

  From Dharmaweb

  <!-- start content -->

  The Patriarch (one day) preached to the assembly as follows:--

  In our system of meditation, we neither dwell upon the mind (in contradistinction to the Essence of Mind) nor upon purity. Nor do we approve of non-activity. As to dwelling upon the mind, the mind is primarily delusive; and when we realize that it is only a phantasm there is no need to dwell on it. As to dwelling upon purity, our nature is intrinsically pure; and so far as we get rid of all delusive 'idea' there will be nothing but purity in our nature, for it is the delusive idea that obscures Tathata (Suchness). If we direct our mind to dwell upon purity we are only creating another delusion, the delusion of purity. Since delusion has no abiding place, it is delusive to dwell upon it. Purity has neither shape nor form; but some people go so far as to invent the 'Form of Purity', and treat it as a problem for solution. Holding such an opinion, these people are purity-ridden, and their Essence of Mind is thereby obscured.

  Learned Audience, those who train themselves for 'imperturbability' should, in their contact with all types of men, ignore the faults of others. They should be indifferent to others' merit or demerit, good or evil, for such an attitude accords with the 'imperturbability of the Essence of Mind'. Learned Audience, a man unenlightened may be unperturbed physically, but as soon as he opens his mouth he criticizes others and talks about their merits or demerits, ability or weakness, good or evil; thus he deviates from the right course. On the other hand, to dwell upon our own mind or upon purity is also a stumbling-block in the Path.

  The Patriarch on another occasion preached to the assembly as follows:--

  Learned Audience, what is sitting for meditation? In our School, to sit means to gain absolute freedom and to be mentally unperturbed in all outward circumstances, be they good or otherwise. To meditate means to realize inwardly the imperturbability of the Essence of Mind.

  Learned Audience, what are Dhyana and Samadhi? Dhyana means to be free from attachment to all outer objects, and Samadhi means to attain inner peace. If we are attached to outer objects, our inner mind will be perturbed. When we are free from attachment to all outer objects, the mind will be in peace. Our Essence of Mind is intrinsically pure, and the reason why we are perturbed is because we allow ourselves to be carried away by the circumstances we are in. He who is able to keep his mind unperturbed, irrespective of circumstances, has attained Samadhi.

  To be free from attachment to all outer objects is Dhyana, and to attain inner peace is Samadhi. When we are in a position to deal with Dhyana and to keep our inner mind in Samadhi, then we are said to have attained Dhyana and Samadhi. The Bodhisattva Sila Sutra says, "Our Essence of Mind is intrinsically pure." Learned Audience, let us realize this for ourselves at all times. Let us train ourselves, practice it by ourselves, and attain Buddhahood by our own effort.

  
  the mind is pure but the body is full of pollution.haha,that's where all evil come from

• An Eternal Now

  17 Jun 08, 00:31

  Found something by Zen Master Linji/Rinzai which I found worth sharing:

   

  ---

  Followers of the Way, when I say that there is no Dharma outside, the students do not understand and deduce it is necessary to search within themselves. Then they sit, leaning against a wall, tongue pressed to the upper palate, and remain so motionless. That they take for the patriarchal gate of the Buddha-Dharma. What a great error! If you take the state of immovable purity for THIS, you acknowledge ignorance as your master. An old master said: “To get lost in the depth of the dark cave, is surely a cause for fear and trembling.” But if you take the moving as THIS, all the grasses and trees can move and so should possess the Way. Therefore, what moves belongs to the element of air(wind); what does not move belongs to the element of earth; and what both moves and does not move has no being in itself. If you think to grasp the moving, it will hold itself motionless. And if you try to grasp the motionless, it will take to moving, “as a fish in a pool rises when waves are stirred.” So, venerable ones, the moving and the motionless are two types of circumstance. But the man of the Way who does not depend on anything makes use of both the moving and the motionless.