After the terrible disasters recently in China and Myanmar, Sharon Stone famously suggested that the suffering was due to kamma:
"I'm not happy about the way the Chinese are treating the Tibetans… and then all this earthquake and all this stuff happened, and I thought, is that karma?"
This received widespread condemnation, despite the fact that she merely raised the question and did not assert anything. Recently, in an interview on the ABC radio PM show, the Dalai Lama was quoted as saying in response to Stone’s comment:
Of course from a Buddhist viewpoint, every event is karma, due to karma. So the tragedy on Tibetan, tragedy in Burma, tragedy in China, all this is karmic.
It should be noted that the Dalai Lama is not demonizing any country here, as he pointedly includes Tibet among those countries suffering due to kamma.
Nevertheless, I don’t believe this view accurately represents the teachings of the Buddha, nor are they rational. This matter is of great concern, as many people see such assertions as blaming victims for their sufferings. In modern India, for example, similar ideas are used to justify the inequalities of the caste system. I am not, of course, suggesting that this is the Dalai Lama’s own view, but merely pointing out how such views can be taken. With all my great respect for His Holiness and his teachings, I think it is important that we should consider for ourselves whether such views are an accurate reflection of the Buddha’s teachings.
Here are some Suttas, taken directly from the Pali canon, the earliest records of the Buddha’s teaching, so that you can make up your own mind.The translations are by Venerable Thanissaro. To emphasize the current issue, where Thanissaro translates 'what was done before' I substitute 'past kamma'. Also, I highlight the crucial passages.
"There are these four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four?
"The Buddha-range of the Buddha is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.
"The jhana-range of a person in jhana...
"The results of kamma...
"Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.
"These are the four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them."
This sutta immediately tells us that we cannot pretend to use kamma as a catch-all explanation. We simply cannot know, given the vast complexity of the webs of cause and effect, how kamma is actually operating in any given situation. This is even more so in the context of widespread disasters, such as in China and Myanmar. If the acts of the leaders are the cause of the disasters, how come the leaders seem to get out unscathed, while thousands of innocent people, who have not contributed to the problems, must pay with their lives? This is not the law of kamma at all, it is something quite different.
This point is emphasized in the following sutta, which explicitly states that not all our experiences are due to kamma. The examples used by the Buddha for alternative causes of pain and pleasure - bile, phlegm, etc., - were the standard causes of diseases recognized in Indian medicine.
AN 36.21 Sivaka Sutta
On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove Monastery, the Squirrel's Feeding Place. There Moliyasivaka the wanderer went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One, "Master Gotama, there are some priests & contemplatives who are of this doctrine, this view: Whatever an individual feels — pleasure, pain, neither-pleasure-nor-pain — is entirely caused by what was past kamma. Now what does Master Gotama say to that?"
[The Buddha:] "There are cases where some feelings arise based on bile. You yourself should know how some feelings arise based on bile. Even the world is agreed on how some feelings arise based on bile. So any priests & contemplatives who are of the doctrine & view that whatever an individual feels — pleasure, pain, neither-pleasure-nor-pain — is entirely caused by what was done before — slip past what they themselves know, slip past what is agreed on by the world. Therefore I say that those priests & contemplatives are wrong."
"There are cases where some feelings arise based on phlegm... based on internal winds... based on a combination of bodily humors... from the change of the seasons... from uneven care of the body... from harsh treatment... from the result of kamma. You yourself should know how some feelings arise from the result of kamma. Even the world is agreed on how some feelings arise from the result of kamma. So any priests & contemplatives who are of the doctrine & view that whatever an individual feels — pleasure, pain, neither pleasure-nor-pain — is entirely caused by what was done before — slip past what they themselves know, slip past what is agreed on by the world. Therefore I say that those priests & contemplatives are wrong."
When this was said, Moliyasivaka the wanderer said to the Blessed One: "Magnificent, lord! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to point out the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has the Blessed One — through many lines of reasoning — made the Dhamma clear. I go to the Blessed One for refuge, to the Dhamma, & to the community of monks. May the Blessed One remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge from this day forward, for life."
Bile, phlegm, wind, a combination,
Season, uneven, harsh treatment,
and through the result of kamma as the eighth.
This is straightforward. The teachings of the Pali canon are clear: not everything is caused by kamma.
This understanding is preserved in the Pali commentarial tradition, which speaks of various systems of natural law (niyÄ�ma), for which I give an approximate modern equivalent: genetics (bÄ«janiyÄ�ma), physics (utuniyÄ�ma), psychology (cittaniyÄ�ma), kamma, and Dhamma (which includes such things as the Four Noble Truths, Dependent Origination, etc.) These are not meant as an exhaustive system, just a few important examples. From this we can see that, according to Theravadin views, an explanation of the world that ignores kamma – as does modern science – is incomplete. But equally inadequate is a view that reduces everything to kamma.
The various conditions, such as bile, etc., which arise in the body during the course of life are not due to kamma, but to combinations of natural causes – diet, exercise, environment, and so on. This is accepted and understood universally in the world. While kamma may, of course, be playing a role in such matters, to insist that disasters and suffering generally experienced by people in this life is the product of past kamma is to misrepresent the Suttas. Kamma is always a teaching which encourages us to accept personal responsibility for our acts. Leaders of countries who make decisions to go to war, to kill or oppress will certainly have to accept the results of this. But this has nothing to do with what the people experience. I noticed that the Burmese junta leaders seem to be doing fine after the cyclone.
It is simply irrational to point to large scale events affecting thousands of people and assert that somehow they have all done the same kamma, and therefore are experiencing the same results. The crucial thing about kamma is not finding a simplistic way to externalize blame, but to use as a reflection for purifying and perfecting our own ethical choices.
For those who wish to read further, following is a more lengthy Sutta on the same topic. This is a great Sutta, one of my favorites, and you should read the whole thing. But here I just give the section dealing with the non-Buddhist doctrine that everything is caused by past kamma. You might also be interested in reading a longer discourse on the same topic, the Devadaha Sutta. Incidentally, the fact that there are several discourses dealing explicitly with this topic shows that this was an active question in the religious debates at the Buddha's time, and one which the Buddha took a definite and consistent position on.
AN 3.61 Tittha Sutta "Sectarians"
See also: MN 101 Devadaha Sutta at: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.101.than.html)
By Bhikkhu Sujato, 14/6/2008
yes karma is responsible
Yes and no. The dhamma teaches one to do good most importantly I would say. The middle path is one but the hardest path to achieved?
Originally posted by Isis:[The Buddha:] "There are cases where some feelings arise based on bile. You yourself should know how some feelings arise based on bile. Even the world is agreed on how some feelings arise based on bile. So any priests & contemplatives who are of the doctrine & view that whatever an individual feels — pleasure, pain, neither-pleasure-nor-pain — is entirely caused by what was done before — slip past what they themselves know, slip past what is agreed on by the world. Therefore I say that those priests & contemplatives are wrong."
"There are cases where some feelings arise based on phlegm... based on internal winds... based on a combination of bodily humors... from the change of the seasons... from uneven care of the body... from harsh treatment... from the result of kamma. You yourself should know how some feelings arise from the result of kamma. Even the world is agreed on how some feelings arise from the result of kamma. So any priests & contemplatives who are of the doctrine & view that whatever an individual feels — pleasure, pain, neither pleasure-nor-pain — is entirely caused by what was done before — slip past what they themselves know, slip past what is agreed on by the world. Therefore I say that those priests & contemplatives are wrong."
Let me use back the examples on bile for my counter-argument.
It is mentioned that diseases such as bile and phlegm are cause by various factors such as internal wind, body humor, uneven care of body, harsh treatment of body, change of seasons, and among them all, karma. You thus argued that karma is only one of the many factors that is the cause of phenomenon.
But I will argue that whenever factors such as 'uneven care of body', 'harsh treatment of body' a cause of an effect, that too can be seen as 'karma'. Even the reasons that causes you to be in a place where there is a bad change of seasons could also be seen as part of 'karma', isn't that right?
In my understanding (I could be wrong, however), it is not wrong to state that everything is due to karma.
The way you think is a result of how you were brought up and what you have experienced so far in your life and previous lives. The way you act is a result of how you think, what you've experienced, how you were brought up, how you cultivate yourself. The way you treat others, the way you handle situations/crisis, the way you view the world, etc. All these surely has a cause...they are all part of karma (again, I could be wrong).
It is mentioned on Wikipedia (but then again, wiki is often proved to be wrong) that 'karma is not the only cause of anything that happens. The following are the five "Niyama Dharma" that cause effects.
Perhaps that is what you meant when you said not everything should be pointed to karma. But I disagree. Like I've mentioned, one's action is a result of past experience...that's karma. The law of nature and seasonal changes/climate can be briefly explained to be dictated by collective karma. Genetic inheritance is also karma...what causes you to be an offspring of someone else. Will of mind, again a result of past experience and cultivation.
So in essence, everything is due to karma.
But I do agree on the fact that ultimately, the law of karma should never be missused to blame people on the suffering they are going through. To do that would be to brush away the need for compassion and benovalence.
Neither should they be seen as fatalism. After all, any positive effects of your present actions can do help you tide over the negative effects of your past actions...that simple.
Ultimately, it's best not to think too much on the issue of karma. What's more important is to cultivate our mind and do good. It doesn't seem to be really important whether or not what karma really is.
she should really watch her mouth, she don't know anything happen in China, i believe chinese are more behaved than she does, otherwise she should get retribution, it's also due to karma,
Hi Annoy-You-Must, there are many levels of understanding 'karma'. If karma just means 'cause and effect', then indeed the 5 Niyamas are all 'karma'.
But in Buddha's terminology and the general understanding among Buddhism, Karma only refers to volitional actions done with intention. It is this volitional action that results in an reaction, or a karmic fruition.
For a major disaster like an earthquake that causes thousands of death, karma is inevitably a major part of the conditioning that leads to the death. It is more precisely collective karma. However other factors/conditions come into play as well.
With regards to the Dalai Lama's comment, I do not want to comment because I don't understand it too well. Even though karma can be collective, they are still individual, that means they are the result of actions done by separate individuals and not due to actions of another.
For example, a group of bandits working together will suffer collective karma in a future time. But they will not, as a result, cause suffering on others other than himself, unless the others too have the same resonating conditions or performed the same actions.
Update: I am not relating any of these with Burma or China, I am merely giving an unrelated example to relate to the idea of collective karma.
don't attribute everything to Karma, Buddhism emphasize on 精进。 In fact what you do, also means alot.Let's say someone is poor, he blame Karma, what's the use, i believe the most reason lies on his education level, his attitude, it's loser to blame everything to Karma,
Originally posted by rokkie:don't attribute everything to Karma, Buddhism emphasize on 精进。 In fact what you do, also means alot.Let's say someone is poor, he blame Karma, what's the use, i believe the most reason lies on his education level, his attitude, it's loser to blame everything to Karma,
Yes many factors come into play and also it's wrong to attribute karma to just mean fate.
Some people may think that certain incurable diseases are caused by past life karma. This is not necessarily so.
If you did not take care of your health, or smoke, you may get cancer at a later age.
This is due to your actions committed in the earlier part of your life, and is perfectly avoidable if you quit smoking right now. So it is still not a 'determinate karma' or 定业.
However, 'determinate karma', or accumulative karma and collective karma definitely play a major role in mass catastrophes and is not easy to prevent. It is also called cumulative karma because certain actions can accumulate certain kinds of karma and then ripen into something much bigger at later dates or even future lifetimes.
As my Master said:
________________________________________
Q: Is getting cancer a predetermined Karma?
A: Getting cancer can be called predetermined Karma, though the opposite is possible also.
For example, if there are certain things that will cause cancer, then I will try to avoid those causes and possibly prevent the cancer itself. From this perspective, getting cancer may not be predetermined, but it is the consequence caused by certain factors.
However, if someone behaves improperly without knowing the law of Karma, he may committee certain crimes, and getting cancer as part of the consequence. Ever worse, the cancer may be so fatal that will take his life away. Then such Karma becomes predetermined, and cannot be altered easily.
In my opinion, i think that karma is not done in this life, it may be done in previous life that ripens today.
Everything that happens is all because of karma. Cause and effect.
I'm not sure whether you guys believe in it.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Yes many factors come into play and also it's wrong to attribute karma to just mean fate.
Some people may think that certain incurable diseases are caused by past life karma. This is not necessarily so.
If you did not take care of your health, or smoke, you may get cancer at a later age.
This is due to your actions committed in the earlier part of your life, and is perfectly avoidable if you quit smoking right now. So it is still not a 'determinate karma' or 定业.
However, 'determinate karma', or accumulative karma and collective karma definitely play a major role in mass catastrophes and is not easy to prevent. It is also called cumulative karma because certain actions can accumulate certain kinds of karma and then ripen into something much bigger at later dates or even future lifetimes.
As my Master said:
________________________________________
Q: Is getting cancer a predetermined Karma?
A: Getting cancer can be called predetermined Karma, though the opposite is possible also.
For example, if there are certain things that will cause cancer, then I will try to avoid those causes and possibly prevent the cancer itself. From this perspective, getting cancer may not be predetermined, but it is the consequence caused by certain factors.
However, if someone behaves improperly without knowing the law of Karma, he may committee certain crimes, and getting cancer as part of the consequence. Ever worse, the cancer may be so fatal that will take his life away. Then such Karma becomes predetermined, and cannot be altered easily.
i am middle way thinking fan, i believe we have to stay in a position of middle way thinking everywhere, everything extreme will be false, like this, we cannot say our karma is determined, shenxiu said,身是è�©æ��æ ‘ï¼Œå¿ƒæ˜¯æ˜Žå‡€å�°ï¼Œæ—¶æ—¶å‹¤æ‹‚æ‹ï¼Œå‹¿ä½¿è‹¥å°˜åŸƒï¼Œi believe this means that, what we choose to do is important to our karma, you can do good to it, or deteriorate it.
actually when i tot further, she is not all wrong when she said this. it just that ppl didnt accept the fact. some things when said cant alter anything, and ppl will blame you for it. is it your fault?
of course i agree the victims do not deserve this tragedy. often, tragedy falls on innocent parties. Its just like being at war. the king made the decision to go war, but he was always the last to suffer from it, while his people were the one to suffer the most.
i believe these tragedies are warnings to the ppl, more than is a karma.
Originally posted by Fengyun1991:In my opinion, i think that karma is not done in this life, it may be done in previous life that ripens today.
Everything that happens is all because of karma. Cause and effect.
I'm not sure whether you guys believe in it.
yes, i agree. a person who maintain good balance of diet, doesnt smoke or drink, also can get cancer and even die from it. it may be due to his past lives effect acting upon him this life.
but of course i dont agree that since this is not avoidable, why we should bother to maintain a good and healthy diet? it may be true we cannot control what will happen to us, but this is the basic respect to our own body. i feel it is the same theory that doing good deeds can really help decrease the negative effect of our own karma from past actions.
Originally posted by jacqn:actually when i tot further, she is not all wrong when she said this. it just that ppl didnt accept the fact. some things when said cant alter anything, and ppl will blame you for it. is it your fault?
you r funny you know that, natural disaster happen everywhere, so that's all due to retribution or karma, rediculous.
at least that what i believe for these tragdies that happened. For natural disasters, it may due to the work of mother nature. but we must think that is it the result of our own actions? can we do something to lessen the effect? and even prevent it? but more often, ppl will not realise it. this is what i think personally.
Originally posted by jacqn:at least that what i believe for these tragdies that happened. For natural disasters, it may due to the work of mother nature. but we must think that is it the result of our own actions? can we do something to lessen the effect? and even prevent it? but more often, ppl will not realise it. this is what i think personally.
i believe, human action have greatly harm mother nature, like climate change, global warming, and that's the cause of recently the great disaster happened.But we cannot say that, some tragdy happened in some country is due to the country's misbehaviour, maybe we need find a reason to console our heart, and i think it's human's misbehaviour as a whole.
Cannot blame particular country, let's check today's people's moral conduct, i believe people become more and more selfish, although this could bring flourishing in effiency in working industry, however, people cannot control their desire, their detroy forest, pollute water.
So people should really question themselves, not only ask what i need, but ask what is good for general public,
Karmic force is not the only force in operation. We have 愿力， 念力， ä¹ æ°”ï¼Œä½›åŠ›ã€‚
人æ»ä¹‹å�Žçš„去å�‘，有三ç§�力é‡�æ�¥å†³å®šä»–的上å�‡æˆ–下 é™�：（1）éš�é‡�，éš�è‘—å�„è‡ªæ‰€é€ çš„å–„æ�¶è¯¸ä¸šä¸çš„最é‡�大者，先去å�—报。（2）éš�ä¹ ï¼Œéš�è‘—å�„自平日最难é�©é™¤çš„æŸ�ç§�ä¹ æ°”ï¼Œå…ˆåˆ°å�Œç±»ç›¸å¼•çš„环境ä¸åŽ»æŠ•ç”Ÿã€‚（3）éš� 念，éš�è‘—å�„自临命终时的念头所归，而去å�—生å…é�“，或生佛国净土。 - Master Sheng Yen
Yes..I am someone who belive in karma ...everything happen for a reason even the recent earthquake in china.You wont know what you have done in your pervious life as we had been linving for more the 3000 years ..You have to pay back what you owe in your pervious life ..Example , if you have a bad marriage life as in your partner having affair outside . in your pervious life , you did that to your family too . You In order to stop karma, do more good deeds and go pray more ba ..But not all karma is bad , there are good karma also. If you done tons of good deeds in your previous , you will to be born in a good family and have a chance to attain tao ..