Originally posted by longchen:�论 is just a process... but it doesn't directly point to and touch Ultimate Reality. If we treat it so importantly before we had a chance to get the first glimpse of Reality, it will bind us like a spell. Yes, the conceptual realm is like a spell. However, if you have never got out of it, you won't know that it is a spell.
If you live in water the day you were born, you will never know how it feels like to live in the air. You may never even know that water or air exist.
Ultimate reality is beyond the realm of �论 or concepts. �论 is on the 'human' conceptual realm. When mind is non-conceptual, it can't be attached to �论. �论 is just a concept. Of course, one still have to keep to the precepts to prevent incurring additional negative karma.
In fact, keeping to the precepts is very important at the later stage. This is because the negative karmic consequence will come very fast. I have quite a few bad experiences to know that this is true. I think Thusness also mentioned about this too.
It depends on what is the person's goal...
1. just to find out things due to curiosity or test water or
2. going for liberation
Also, nothing is really lost. This is really an insight. All the memories are 'still there'... Because all the memories are still there and are not controlled by the 'I' or 'self', we don't have to be afraid that if when do not exercise thinking and �论, they will be gone or we will become more stupid. LOL. No, non-conceptuality and the practice will not make us less intelligent.
Concepts don't liberate us. On the contrary, they block us from directly experiencing the deep rest of mind aka bliss. The cessation of perception doesn't mean that one's memories and intelligence are wipe out. If that is true, arhats will become stupid upon their enlightenment. What really happened is the 'deregistration of conceptualization'.
Just my opinion only.
i think the text i posted already quite clear enough, i think conceptulization does deteriorate enlightenment, and when you reading sutras,does not necessarily means attached, i think the most brilliant master, can keep their mind from attachment all the way, but for most ordinary buddhism pratitioner, they are not capable to do that, i think in the society if we want to secure a job, earn money, having family, it's very hard to stay away from attachment, sorry, i don't know what's the definition of attachment, but for me, i think as long as you æ— ä¸º, there will be no attachment, the world is full of conceptualization, but you can stay out of it, even though, you learn a lot, i think the most amazing part of learning, is the conceptualization carried in text will touch your soul, forgive me, i know buddhism don't ackownledge soul, but you know what i mean.i think what you mean by attached to conceptualization means æ–‡å—相, which is a real buddhist should stay away, but does not necessarily mean, very single time you doing the reading, your mind will be attached, just like lotus, which is a buddhism icon, he grow in dirty mud, but it does not deteriorate his purity.
And in the world it's not possible to communicate without conceptualization, we are using word, aren't we,
we are talking about weishi, which is a complete system of buddhism, it's not possible to do without any conceptualisation to understand it, again, conceptualisation does not mean attachment, only the one reading sutra for showing off, it's attachment, not the one attracted by it's beauty.
If buddhism become pure practice like qigong, martial art, so on, i think we already deny the beauty of the whole buddhism system the ancestor trying to build, otherwise there will be no sutra passing down.I think the mind of state is not conceivable without conceptualisation, yes you may say, you master will teach you, but i think, for the whole world to understand buddhism, sutra is one important role in it.
i think if you are talking �论 of meditation, i think it's not our top concern,as long as meditation is the concern, we should try it, but sutra is a way to direct our meditation, without it your master may learn from his master, his master may learn from another master, but with the guidiance of sutra, we know maybe what they teach us is not wholely correct, i think the western society always criticize the image worship practised in hinduism, buddhism, without dharma i don't know what we should worship,