(Last edit: 14 October 2008)
Spiritual
practices come in countless different forms, so what I am covering is
limited and general. Also, I have written on the importance of Right
View (near the bottom) that is required for the arising of Prajna
wisdom, the insight into Emptiness (Stage 6 of Thusness's Six Stages of Experience). Much of the following post is based on what Thusness/PasserBy have said.
Self Inquiry
Some
practices are very helpful in giving an initial glimpse of Presence.
The I AMness can be experienced through practices where the object of
concentration is the Self. One of such practices is self-inquiry. This
is most widely practiced throughout Advaita Vedanta but also practiced
in some some Zen/Ch'an (as Koan practice), Tibetan (Mahamudra and
Dzogchen), Theravada (Thai Forest tradition) traditions of Buddhism.
Through this practice the practitioner can experience the I AMness (see
Stage 1 of Thusness's Six Stages of Experience, where Thusness experienced I AMness through the Self-Inquiry of "Before Birth, Who am I?").
It can be a question "Who am I" that leads one to the experience of the
subject-object becoming one, i.e. attaining absorption. Till a point
the practitioner simply experiences a pure sense of existence. This
leads to a deep and ultimate conviction, that certainty beyond doubt of
your very own existence -- "I AM". Though it is important to have
certainty of our luminosity, this pure sense of existence as being
ever-present and never lost, such mode of experiencing has no
understanding of its non-dual luminous clarity and its nature as Anatta
(Buddhist term for No-Self) and Sunyata (Buddhist term for Emptiness.)
Apart
from recommending the practice Vipassana (insight meditation), Thusness
sometimes (depending on conditions and the practitioners' inclinations)
also recommend the practice of self-inquiry to practitioners (sometimes
he would ask them to contemplate on questions such as, “Without using any languages, ‘I’, ‘me’ or any signs or symbols, how is ‘I’ experienced?”). However, this practice does not provide further insights into the non-dual and Empty nature of Presence.
Although
having glimpses of this Presence is important, it cannot be
misunderstood as the final aim. It cannot even be treated as any sort
of arising insight that liberates us from suffering. It's nature tends
to be misunderstood, and hence appears to the practitioner as a
void/formless background witness, an Eternal Witness, or a Self/Atman.
It's nature as No-Self and Emptiness (not 'Void', but as Dependent
Origination) isn't realised.
(Related: Also see a good youtube video by Vishrant on the downside of self inquiry -- Satsang with Vishrant self inquiry.
He too implied that Self-Inquiry can lead to the I AM experience (he
calls it awareness turning on itself) but that realisation/experience
of "awareness aware of itself is really only the beginning, it is not
the end, it is only the first day in kindergarten". Yes, of course,
because that is only Stage 1 of Thusness's Six Stages of Experience.
He also talks of the downside of Self-Inquiry as potentially being
misused into avoiding painful/unpleasant experiences by turning
awareness upon itself and avoid/escape everything, and also on the
'technique' he prefer -- the 'surrendering to/allowing' whatever
appearing, and thus dissolving the self.)
Dropping/Dissolving and Mindfulness/Naked Awareness/Bare Attention
The key point about the practice of mindful awareness (see Chapter 13: Mindfulness (Sati) of 'Mindfulness In Plain English' by Venerable Henepola Gunaratana, on
the practice of Mindfulness and its relation to Vipassana/Insight
Meditation) is there is no keeping of the mind on anything (including
on the I AM as in the case of self inquiry) and by not resting on
anything, it fuses into everything; therefore it cannot be
concentrated; rather it is to relax into nothingness empty of self,
empty of any artificial doing so that the natural luminosity can take
its own course. There is no focusing, there is only allowing the mirror
bright clarity to shine with its natural radiance. In essence there is
no one there, only the phenomenon arising and ceasing according to
conditions, telling their stories.
As Longchen/Simpo wrote, "No
subject-object division is the true nature of existence. The method of
realising this insight lies in the dissolving of the 'sense of self'.
This often involves the continual and correct letting go of mental
grasping." (The misconceptions surrounding Transcendental Non duality)
So,
drop and dissolve away into vivid non-dual luminosity. Dissolve
completely and arise as the scenery, sound, taste, smell, thoughts,
touch sensations.
The ultimate purpose of dropping is to allow non-dual experience to arise.
There
are certain types of people who advocate on the uselessness of practice
(particularly the Neo-Advaitins), and that asking people to 'do
practices' simply strengthens their sense of self. However, what is
being spoken here is essentially not a 'doing'. It can more accurately
be known as a 'non-doing'.
Nothing needs to be done here, as
every single moment is it, and so there is no striving towards a
'better state' -- every state is equally pure, equally the expression
of Buddha-Nature. This is It! Hence, as Longchen/Simpo wrote,
...However, there can be no progressing from a dualistic state into a non-dual state. Every single moment is it! There is no one state better than the rest! Every moment is as it is.
There is absolutely no need to do anything. Even if the efforting or anything arise, let it be! The effort arises automatically too... no-self there too!
By doing nothing, everything arises and passes away on its own accord.
Actually, there cannot be a 'doing nothing'... There can only be 'what is' at any single moment."
Thusness/PasserBy said,
"...it seems that lots of effort need to be put in -- which is really not the case. The entire practice turns out to an undoing process. It is a process of gradually understanding the workings of our nature that is from beginning liberated but clouded by this sense of ‘self’ that is always trying to preserve, protect and ever attached. The entire sense of self is a ‘doing’. Whatever we do, positive or negative, is still doing. Ultimately there is not-even a letting go or let be, as there is already continuous dissolving and arising and this ever dissolving and arising turns out to be self-liberating. Without this ‘self’ or ‘Self’, there is no ‘doing’, there is only spontaneous arising.
(source: Non-dual and karmic patterns)
As
mentioned earlier, this is not a form of exercise in concentration or
focused attention, but dropping and only Dharma spontaneously arising.
(Also see Six Stages of Dropping by Thusness)
Awareness
or Buddha-Nature is not the same as focused attention or concentration.
Awareness is effortlessly happening right now, whether you like it or
not, and whether you are paying attention or not. When causes and
conditions is, manifestation is, when manifestation is, Awareness is.
Naturally, sounds are effortlessly being heard, smells are effortlessly being
smelled, even if the smell or sound is unpleasant and you try to avoid
it, it's being awared. While paying attention to the breath, something
still hears sounds. That is Buddha-Nature. It is the sum of all our
parts, that which sees, hears, feels and tastes all at once as One
Reality. Before you think that this awareness is a 'thing' -- a Mirror
or a Witness, it's not separate -- it's just sound hearing, scenery
seeing, it's not a something tangible (a Mirror or a Witness) yet is
vividly manifesting.
So as Toni Packer said, "There
is no need for awareness to turn anywhere. It's here! Everything is
here in awareness! When there is a waking up from fantasy, there is no
one who does it. Awareness and the sound of a plane are here with no
one in the middle trying to "do" them or bring them together. They are
here together! The only thing that keeps things (and people) apart is
the "me"-circuit with its separative thinking. When that is quiet,
divisions do not exist."
Joan Tollifson ("student" of Toni), "This
open being is not something to be practiced methodically. Toni points
out that it takes no effort to hear the sounds in the room; it's all
here. There's no "me" (and no problem) until thought comes in and says:
"Am I doing it right? Is this 'Awareness'? Am I enlightened?" Suddenly
the spaciousness is gone—the mind is occupied with a story and the
emotions it generates."
Also very helpful in the practice
of mindful awareness is to contemplate (means, to experience in direct
awareness) on certain pointers and instructions that the Buddha gave.
For example, one can meditate based on the Bahiya Sutta (see The Buddha on Non-Duality),
In seeing, there is only the seen,
In hearing, there is only sound,
In sensing, there is only sensation,
In thinking, there is only thought
By contemplating as such, insight into Anatta (No-Self) can arise. What
should be noted also is that whatever said is really “already is”. In
seeing, there is always only the seen. In hearing there is always only
the sound. Never was there a seer or hearer. All “already is”. Anatta
is not just a non-dual experience, it must be regarded as a dharma
seal, the ever-present nature of reality. That
all along the dichotomy of a observer and observed duality is an
illusion created by due to our deeply rooted inherent and dualistic
tendency of seeing things.
From the comments section in Thusness's Six Stages of Experience,
...If
a practitioner were to feel that he has gone beyond the experiences
from ‘I hear sound’ to a stage of ‘becoming sound’ or takes that ‘there
is just mere sound’, then this experience is again distorted. For in
actual case, there is and always is only sound when hearing; never was
there a hearer to begin with. Nothing attained for it is always so...
....This is the seal of no-self and can be realized and experienced in all moments; not just a mere concept...
Next,
in thinking, only thought: but what is thought? In your direct
awareness you can notice that it is a kind of phenomena just like
sound, sight, etc, but a different kind of phenomena. In Buddhism,
there are 6 senses instead of the commonly accepted 5 senses within
Science. Everything is the same, except that we include 'mind' in it.
Thought is not seen with eyes, it is not heard with ears, yet the
thought is undeniably present when it arises. Images are recalled,
mental reasoning arises, relating, pondering, mental images and words
appearing and then disappearing and then another appearing. But what is
more important is that it is a 'knowing' or 'luminous' phenomenon. All
along the transience rolls and knows; no watcher is real or needed.
This thought, and another thought, and another thought, each thought is
a complete and luminous manifestation of Buddha-Nature.
If
we fail to see that each thought is a self-luminous/'knowing'
manifestation, the tendency is to push, to relate to a 'center', a
Self, a source, a background Knower/Witness, a void and limitless
container. We think that Buddha Nature is not a thought, it is not the
transience, it is the invisible Witness of thoughts, the void
background wherein thoughts arise from and return to, itself
unchanging. And that is a mistake. When we fail to see that there is no
separation, we choose to stay as a Witness/Source, not realising All
Appearances are the equally the Source/Witness, there is nothing to
choose. So this 'practice' is really about 'choiceless awareness'.
See: Choiceless Awareness and Non-Fixation by Aaron
Choiceless awareness means to rest in whatever is present, understanding the conditioned nature of its arising and that whatever has arisen is an expression of the pure heart/mind, an expression of God. Seeing that, you cease to take a dual stance against that which has arisen, but let it point you back into the ground of your being, the divine core. Here equanimity is present, equanimity with arising, neither grasping or pushing away. For this "choiceless awareness" to be truly choiceless, everything that arises must be seen as divine play, divine expression. No exceptions. The difficulty is that you do make exceptions, taking stance against that which you judge as "other-than," the fear, anger, desire. Even this "other-than" judgment is not what fogs in your peace. Delusion grows from the belief that this arising thought is true and from the contractions that form about it.
When
we know our nature as empty-luminosity, we'll see all as "ME". The "I
AM" is not more "ME" than a passing thought, a passing sound, a moment
of sensation when the feet touches the ground. There is no Self apart
from phenomena arising and passing.
So
one must feel the difference between "In thinking just thought" and the
"Eternal Witness" -- the "Eternal Witness" is just a tendency to relate
back and sink to a source and refuse to 'see' what is. Every arising of
a thought carries with it deeply rooted imprints that 'blinds'.
Yet
not only must the non-dual (no subject-object, no thinker/thought
division) luminosity be experienced, it must also be experienced that
each thought is unsupported, discrete and complete yet... and hence
there is no chaining of one thought to another. Same goes to sight,
sound, taste, smell, touch sensations. Hence Bahiya Sutta is deeply
profound.
See The Mystique of Enlightenment (Part Two) by U.G. Krishnamurti: http://www.well.com/user/jct/mystiq2.htm
Is there in you an entity which you call the 'I' or the 'mind' or the 'self'? Is there a co- ordinator who is co-ordinating what you are looking at with what you are listening to, what you are smelling with what you are tasting, and so on? Or is there anything which links together the various sensations originating from a single sense -- the flow of impulses from the eyes, for example? Actually, there is always a gap between any two sensations. The co-ordinator bridges that gap: he establishes himself as an illusion of continuity.
In the natural state there is no entity who is co-ordinating the messages from the different senses. Each sense is functioning independently in its own way. When there is a demand from outside which makes it necessary to co-ordinate one or two or all of the senses and come up with a response, still there is no co-ordinator, but there is a temporary state of co- ordination. There is no continuity; when the demand has been met, again there is only the unco-ordinated, disconnected, disjointed functioning of the senses. This is always the case. Once the continuity is blown apart -- not that it was ever there; but the illusory continuity -- it's finished once and for all.
..............
Your movement of thought interferes with the process of touch, just as it does with the other senses. Anything you touch is always translated as 'hard', 'soft', 'warm', 'cold', 'wet', 'dry', and so on.
You do not realize it, but it is your thinking that creates your own body. Without this thought process there is no body consciousness -- which is to say there is no body at all. My body exists for other people; it does not exist for me; there are only isolated points of contact, impulses of touch which are not tied together by thought. So the body is not different from the objects around it; it is a set of sensations like any others. Your body does not belong to you.
Perhaps I can give you the 'feel' of this. I sleep four hours at night, no matter what time I go to bed. Then I lie in bed until morning fully awake. I don't know what is lying there in the bed; I don't know whether I'm lying on my left side or my right side -- for hours and hours I lie like this. If there is any noise outside -- a bird or something -- it just echoes in me. I listen to the "flub-dub-flub-dub" of my heart and don't know what it is. There is no body between the two sheets -- the form of the body is not there. If the question is asked, "What is in there?" there is only an awareness of the points of contact, where the body is in contact with the bed and the sheets, and where it is in contact with itself, at the crossing of the legs, for example. There are only the sensations of touch from these points of contact, and the rest of the body is not there. There is some kind of heaviness, probably the gravitational pull, something very vague. There is nothing inside which links up these things. Even if the eyes are open and looking at the whole body, there are still only the points of contact, and they have no connection with what I am looking at. If I want to try to link up these points of contact into the shape of my own body, probably I will succeed, but by the time it is completed the body is back in the same situation of different points of contact. The linkage cannot stay. It is the same sort of thing when I'm sitting or standing. There is no body.
Can you tell me how mango juice tastes? I can't. You also cannot; but you try to relive the memory of mango juice now -- you create for yourself some kind of an experience of how it tastes -- which I cannot do. I must have mango juice on my tongue -- seeing or smelling it is not enough -- in order to be able to bring that past knowledge into operation and to say "Yes, this is what mango juice tastes like." This does not mean that personal preferences and 'tastes' change. In a market my hand automatically reaches out for the same items that I have liked all my life. But because I cannot conjure up a mental experience, there can be no craving for foods which are not there.
Smell plays a greater part in your daily life than does taste. The olfactory organs are constantly open to odors. But if you do not interfere with the sense of smell, what is there is only an irritation in the nose. It makes no difference whether you are smelling cow dung or an expensive French perfume -- you rub the nose and move on.
..............
You have a feeling that there is a 'cameraman' who is directing the eyes. But left to themselves -- when there is no 'cameraman' -- the eyes do not linger, but are moving all the time. They are drawn by the things outside. Movement attracts them, or brightness or a color which stands out from whatever is around it. There is no 'I' looking; mountains, flowers, trees, cows, all look at me. The consciousness is like a mirror, reflecting whatever is there outside. The depth, the distance, the color, everything is there, but there is nobody who is translating these things. Unless there is a demand for knowledge about what I am looking at, there is no separation, no distance from what is there. It may not actually be possible to count the hairs on the head of someone sitting across the room, but there is a kind of clarity which seems as if I could.
Also one can contemplate on the pointing out instructions by Guru Padmasambhava wrote in Self-Liberation through Seeing with Naked Awareness,
7.Now, when you are introduced (to your own intrinsic awareness), the method for entering into it involves three considerations:
Thoughts in the past are clear and empty and leave no traces behind.
Thoughts in the future are fresh and unconditioned by anything.
And in the present moment, when (your mind) remains in its own condition without constructing anything, awareness, at that moment, in itself is quite ordinary.
And when you look into yourself in this way nakedly (without any discursive thoughts),
Since there is only this pure observing, there will be found a lucid clarity without anyone being there who is the observer;
only a naked manifest awareness is present.
(This awareness) is empty and immaculately pure, not being created by anything whatsoever.
It is authentic and unadulterated, without any duality of clarity and emptiness.
It is not permanent and yet it is not created by anything.
However, it is not a mere nothingness or something annihilated because it is lucid and present.
It does not exist as a single entity because it is present and clear in terms of being many.
(On the other hand) it is not created as a multiplicity of things because it is inseparable and of a single flavor.
This inherent self-awareness does not derive from anything outside itself.
This is the real introduction to the actual condition of things.
Tejananda (a current Buddhist teacher) wrote:
(Excerpt from http://tejanandajohnwakeman.googlepages.com/pureawareness -- a good and recommended article on 'Pure Awareness', also see some comments by Thusness/Passerby on this article here: http://buddhism.sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/331569)
Padmasambhava says ‘there is only this pure observing’ – in other words ‘in the seen there is just the seen, in the heard there is just the heard, in the sensed there is just the sensed, in the cognised there is just the cognised’. There is nothing added, nothing extra – just what is sensed by any of the six senses in this instant. No added concepts about it.
So he continues ‘there will be found a lucid clarity without anyone being there who is the observer’. There is a clear cognition of whatever is arising to the sense fields, but no sense of a ‘me’ who is ‘having’ this ‘experience’. In the seen there is just the seen’ – not the seen plus you seeing it! Only a naked manifest awareness is present. There is just awareness, ‘naked’ (devoid) of any ‘egoing’. That’s all there is.
Right View
Right
View is indispensible in Buddhism, it is the 1st of the 8 fold path.
And that view essentially, is Emptiness/Dependent Origination.
In
Buddhism, the path (naked awareness of everything as it is) alone
cannot lead to fruition (liberation), having right view (Emptiness) is
necessary and crucial. That is, only through having the right view with
the right practices (path) then fruition of liberation can arise.
Even
after the arising of non-dual insight, there is a period of desync
between what is experienced and the existing paradigm we used to
orientate the world. It is a de-synchronization between views and
meditative experience. That is, a practitioner will find great
difficulties when trying to express the experience based on a
subject/object dichotomy. It can be quite frustrating and the
practitioner may get himself confused during the process.
In
Buddhism there is a complete system of thought to orientate ourselves
non-dually, that is, the viewless-view of Emptiness. It is a raft but
it is the antidote for the conventional mind to orientate itself in a
non-dual and non-local context. It also led to the amazing insight that
‘duality’ is really the result of seeing and taking things ‘inherently’.
In the practice of non-conceptuality, the firm establishment of right view is not a problem.
In the practice of thoughtlessness, thought is not a problem.
In the practice of selflessness, self is not a problem.
Experiences
of our non-dual nature can still surface intermittently even when the
tendency to see things dualistically is still strong. At times when the
layer that divides is temporary suspended, non-dual is most vivid and
clear and practitioners may wrongly conclude that ‘concepts’ are the
problem because the presence of ‘concepts’ divides and prevent the
non-dual experience. This seems logical and reasonable only to a mind
that is deeply root in a subject/object dichotomy. Very quickly
‘non-conceptuality’ becomes an object of practice. The process of
objectification is the result of the tendency in action perpetually
repeating itself taking different forms like an endless loop. This can
continue to the extent that a practitioner can even ‘fear’ to establish
concepts without knowing it. On the other hand, the continuous enquiry
can also lead an inquirer into a situation of utter confusion to the
extent that he/she doubts even his/her own existence.
It is not
uncommon to find practitioners totally giving up this attempt to
synchronize "views" and experience and conclude that it is an absolute
futile endeavor to do that. They prefer to rest fully in naked
awareness.
By doing so, the practitioner will miss something valuable -- the insight of the importance of "non inherent existence".
In
fact, dualistic view is merely a subset of seeing things 'inherently'.
Further understanding will also reveal that the bad habit of
'searching' is the result of seeing things 'inherently'. Our inability
to sustain a non-dual experience is also the result of it. The
formation of a 'center' that we are so unwilling to give up is merely a
natural phenomenon of our deeply held 'inherent' views.
Like
a red flower that is so vivid, clear and right in front of an observer,
the “redness” only appears to “belong” to the flower, it is in
actuality not so. Vision of red does not arise in all animal species
(dogs cannot perceive colours) nor is the “redness” an attribute of the
mind... and in Buddhism we recognise that there are other realms'
beings who can see something completely different. If given a “quantum
eyesight” to look into the atomic structure, there is similarly no
attribute “redness” anywhere found, only almost complete space/void
with no perceivable shapes and forms. Whatever appearances are
dependently arisen, and hence is empty of any inherent existence or
fixed attributes, shapes, form, or “redness” -- merely luminous yet
empty, mere Appearances without inherent/objective existence. What
gives rise to the differences of colours and experiences in each of us?
Dependent arising... hence empty of inherent existence. This is the
nature of all phenomena. They are empty of any inherent objective
existence in a 'really-out-there' kind of way.
As you've seen,
there is no ‘The Flowerness’ seen by a dog, an insect or us, or beings
from other realms (which really may have a completely different mode of
perception). ‘'The Flowerness' is an illusion that does not stay even
for a moment, merely an aggregate of causes and conditions. Analogous
to the example of ‘flowerness’, there is no ‘selfness’ serving as a
background witnessing either -- pristine awareness is not the
witnessing background. Rather, the entire whole of the moment of
manifestation is our pristine awareness; lucidly clear, yet empty of
inherent existence. This is the way of ‘seeing’ the one as many, the
observer and the observed are one and the same. This is also the
meaning of formlessness and attributelessness of our nature. But this
does not mean that awareness is void or nothing, it is full of forms,
full of colours, as Emptiness is Form... just empty of 'inherent
existence'. So Emptiness, in Buddhism, strictly means Dependent Arising.
There is something well written related to this topic:
http://www.nichirenscoffeehouse.net/dharmajim/DharmaView.html
...Apophaticism rests on the idea that ultimate nature is somewhere else, than the realm in which we live. Utterly removed from, and different from, the realm of experience, ultimacy can then only be accessed through a step by step process which disengages me from this realm in which I dwell. In other words, apophaticism and mysticism are dualistic, creating a division in existence, minimally between the conceptual and ultimacy, and in extreme cases between ultimacy and everything which I experience.
My understanding of the Dharma does not regard the realm in which I dwell as removed from the ultimate nature of Interdependent Transformation. Ultimacy does not exist somewhere else. It is not a matter of contacting some other domain in order to access ultimacy. Rather it is a matter of shifting our attention so that I can perceive and comprehend the actuality of things. From this perspective, my understanding of existence is misconstrued and my perception of things is askew. The purpose of Dharma study and practice is to correct these misunderstandings, both conceptually and perceptually, to overcome ignorance and the habits that give rise to this ignorance. When that is done, the ultimate nature of all existing things and existence itself, stands forth as the Interdependent Transformation nature which permeates all of existence, unlocated, ever present, never far.
I realize that this way of comprehending the Dharma sets me at odds with those traditions which regard the ultimate nature of existence, Buddha Nature, Nirvana, as something which can not be accessed through study and thinking. I can only say that at one time I agreed with this view, but that my undersanding has now moved to a view which encompasses thought, conceptuality, study, and thinking within the domain of ultimacy without ejecting anything else from that domain. To set thought aside, from the perspective of Interdependent Transformation, makes no more sense than asking someone to set aside hearing, or to set aside seeing. Just as all visual phenomena have the nature of Interdependent Transformation, just as all sonic phenomena have the nature of Interdependent Transformation, so also all thoughts, all concepts, also have the nature of Interdependent Transformation. For this reason rejecting thoughts and concepts means limiting the extent of the play of ultimate nature. But Buddha Nautre as Interdependent Transformation marks all existing things. Marking all existing things, this nature marks all thoughts. Marking all thoughts and concepts, thoughts and concepts, when comprehended in their totality, and as Interdependent Transformations, graciously display the true nature of all existing things. Words also have a luminously clear nature. Thoughts also sparkle with elemental transformative energy. Concepts also shimmer with the ever flowing and present energy of all things. Rejecting nothing, the words of the Dharma compassionately guide me to ultimate realization...
Because
liberation is empty of the four extremes (existence, non-existence,
both existence and non-existence, neither existence nor non-existence),
it is difficult to see. It is better and safer to practice with the
firm establishment of right view as taught by Buddha. When we practice,
the path of practice should be non-conceptual whether in bare attention
or surrendering or dropping. When we have certain direct and
transcendental experience, the experience must be validated with the
right view. If both views and practices coincide and liberation is
experienced from moment to moment, the holding of ‘right view’ will
naturally dissolve in its own accord as it is fully authenticated in
real time from moment to moment.
When
the view and experience are harmonized, the practitioner can progress
further. He rests neither in concepts nor non-conceptuality.
Of
course, having the right view without right practice will also not bear
fruit and simply remains an intellectual view/understanding. Right view
(1st of the 8 Fold Path), right practice (remaining 7 of the 8 Fold
Path), then fruition.
(Also see http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2008/02/thusnesss-reply-to-longchen-at.html)