(sorry, forum problem, double posted)
Just a sharing.
Yesterday I was woken up by my coughing.... and when I woke up I noticed my body is coughing spontaneously by its own, automatically, without control! It feels a bit weird and disorientating when I first noticed it. But since then I have noticed it several times. It has always been so.
It's not 'I' or 'me' that have been been coughing all the while.... that is just an assumption. In reality it is more like the the universe is coughing my body... and there is no identification of the body as 'me' or 'mine'.
Similarly am I breathing or am I being breathed? I guess the truth is more like 'the entire universe is breathing'.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Just a sharing.
Yesterday I was woken up by my coughing.... and when I woke up I noticed my body is coughing spontaneously by its own, automatically, without control! It feels a bit weird and disorientating when I first noticed it. But since then I have noticed it several times. It has always been so.
It's not 'I' or 'me' that have been been coughing all the while.... that is just an assumption. In reality it is more like the the universe is coughing my body... and there is no identification of the body as 'me' or 'mine'.
Similarly am I breathing or am I being breathed? I guess the truth is more like 'the entire universe is breathing'.
Indeed a precious experience but not expressed as it is. :P
You may want to ask yourself the following questions:
1. Any idea why u r experiencing it this way this time? (The condition that give rise to this sensation)?
2. If it is as described, is there 'an awareness' here realising that there is 'your body coughing spontaneously by its own'?
3 How was the feeling like?
Happy exploring!
Originally posted by Thusness:Indeed a precious experience but not expressed as it is. :P
You may want to ask yourself the following questions:
1. Any idea why u r experiencing it this way this time? (The condition that give rise to this sensation)?
2. If it is as described, is there 'an awareness' here realising that there is 'your body coughing spontaneously by its own'?
3 How was the feeling like?
Happy exploring!
I don't know how that experienced happened.. but maybe instead of being identified with the body or as the controller of the body, I just switched into 'just watching' the body movement and simply letting it act on itself.
So I did experience 'an awareness here' that simply sees the body coughing spontaneously. Like I'm in a space that is simply aware and watching. But it is seen there is no entity or self controlling the body, the body just acts spontaneously on its own, automatically, and it is not me or mine. Maybe this is what you call 'dissociation'?
...And watch minutely -- if you really are walking, is there any walker inside? Walking happens, it is a process. Legs move, hands move, you breathe more, the wind blows in your face, you enjoy; the faster you go, the more vitality you feel -- everything is beautiful. But is there really a walker? Is there somebody sitting inside, or does just the process exist? If you become aware, you will find only the process exists. The ego is illusory: it is just a mind-creation. You eat, and you think there must be somebody who eats, because logic says: How can you walk without a walker inside? How can you eat without an eater being there? How can you love without a lover being inside? This is what logic says. But if you have loved, and if you have come to a moment where love really existed, you must have known that there was no lover inside -- only love, a process, an energy. But nobody inside.
You meditate, but is there any meditator? And when meditation comes to a flowering, and all thoughts cease, who is there inside? Is there somebody who says that all thoughts have ceased? If that is there, then still the meditation has not flowered; at least one thought is still there. When meditation flowers there is simply nobody to take note of it, nobody to give it recognition, nobody to say: Yes, it has happened. The moment you say: Yes, it has happened -- it is lost already.
When there is really meditation, a silence pervades; without any bounds a bliss throbs; without any boundaries there is a harmony; but there is nobody to take note. There is nobody to say: Yes, this has happened. That's why the Upanishads say that when a person says: "I have realized!" you can know well that he has not. That's why all the Buddhas have said that whenever somebody claims, the very claim shows that he has not reached the final peak because at the final peak the claimer disappears. In fact, it has never been there. Eating is not a dream -- the eater is the dream.
The whole emphasis has changed from the seed to the flower.
That's why many people in the West think that to call Zen, "Zen Buddhism", is not good, because a vast difference is felt in the answers. But they are wrong. Zen Buddhism is absolute pure Buddhism, even purified of Buddha, purified of Buddhist concepts. It is the most essential, the purest DHYAN, the purest flowering of consciousness. Without any center, you exist. Without there being anybody, you exist. You are, and still you are not. That's what Tilopa is emphasizing: no-self, ANATTA, emptiness, void.
What does Bokuju say? He says: "We dress, we eat." His answer is finished. His answer is complete, perfect. He says simply: we eat, and we dress, and we have never found any problem, and we have never found anybody who can come out. There is nobody inside. Eating exists, dressing exists, ego does not...
...When somebody asked the great master Zenerin: What do you do with your disciples? He said: What do I do? I don't do anything. The questioner asked: But so many things happen around you, you must be doing something. Zenerin said: Sitting quietly, doing nothing, spring comes, and the grass grows by itself.
This is what a master is doing: sitting quietly, doing nothing, waiting for the right moment, the spring. Suddenly, when the disciple and the master meet, there will be spring -- the spring comes, and the grass grows by itself. And this is how it happens. A master simply sits, not doing anything and a disciple waits for the master to do something. Then comes the spring. And the moment they meet, the grass grows by itself....
....You breathe in, you breathe out; that is what life is. How do you do it? Are you the doer? Then hold your breath in, for a few seconds, and you will come to know that you are not the doer. You cannot hold it for long. Within seconds the breath will force itself out. Hold it out: within seconds you will find you cannot do anything -- the breath is forcing itself in. In fact, the grass grows by itself, just like breathing. It grows of its own accord; you are not the doer....
....THEREUPON, SEKKYO SEIZED THE MONK'S NOSE AND GAVE IT A GREAT YANK.
"OUCH!" YELLED THE MONK, "YOU HURT ME!"
In this "Ouch!" is the whole mystery. Somebody yanks on your nose -- what happens inside? The first thing is that it was never expected. The mind was expecting some intellectual answer. This is rather total. He was asking for some theory, some doctrine, some method, technique: he wanted a head-to-head communication. This is rather total. The total master jumps on him, just like a cat jumps on a mouse. A total thing. The whole cat jumps, not the head; and the whole mouse is caught, not the head. This is a total thing, unexpected. And unexpectedness is the key, because if the mind can expect, there will be no shock. If the mind can expect, then the mind is already dead. So if you go to Sekkyo, remember well -- he will not do the same to you again, because you can expect it now. He will do something absolutely unexpected.
Because Zen masters hit, throw people out of the window, jump on them, do anything, it has sometimes happened in the history of Zen that people will come completely ready. Dimensions are limited. What can you do? You can hit, you can throw, you can jump on the man. Just a few alternatives are there. So people will come completely ready. But you cannot deceive a master -- he will not do anything; he will simply sit silently -- and that will be unexpected. Unexpectedness is the key, because in an unexpected moment the mind cannot function. That's what "Ouch!" means. The mind has simply stopped. This voice doesn't come from the mind, it comes from your totality. It is not manipulated by the ego, because there is no time for the ego to manipulate, it has happened so suddenly, the master has jumped upon you so suddenly, there was no time to prepare, to get ready, to do something. This "Ouch!" comes from your whole body, mind, soul; from your very depth of emptiness it comes, it has a flavor of the total.
And there is no manipulator, nobody has done it -- it has happened. And when something happens and the doer is not, that is how you catch hold of emptiness. This is emptiness. This "Ouch!" comes from the inner emptiness. Nobody is a doer of it. The disciple has not done it: it has simply happened. And in that happening, in that "Ouch!" mind is not functioning. It has passed through the mind, but it has not come from the mind. And it has passed through the mind at such a fast speed, in fact, if you are really hurt on the nose, yanked, the "Ouch!" that happens breaks the sound-barrier. You go and ask the physiologists: it moves faster than sound. It has a total energy in it and it is beautiful, because this man may have completely forgotten the spontaneousness of being. He is thrown back to his spontaneousness. He is thrown from the mind deeper into his own innermost shrine: from there comes this "Ouch!" Unexpected, not doing it, it happens. It happens out of emptiness, you have caught hold.
"OUCH!" YELLED THE MONK, "YOU HURT ME!"
And immediately comes back the echo: "You hurt me." It lasts only for a single moment, not even a single moment, a minute part of it, a glimpse, a lightning, and immediately the mind takes control again: You hurt me.
Look at these three words -- you, hurt, me. This is the whole of life: you and me and the hurt. Immediately the whole mind is back, with all the basic elements; you, me and the hurt.
"THAT'S THE WAY TO GET HOLD OF EMPTINESS", SAID SEKKYO.
He has revealed it. He has not explained, he has already given it. He has not only indicated, he has created a situation in which it happened. That's what a master is for: to create a situation in which things happen to you, to create a situation in which you can become aware of the mechanicalness of the mind, and of the spontaneousness of your inner no-self. And then you can move, by and by, from the mind to the inner spontaneousness. You can become loose and natural. You have to understand that everything can go on without your mind trying to manipulate -- everything in fact goes on very beautifully. The trouble starts when you take hold, when you try to manipulate, when you want the mind to be in the saddle -- then the trouble starts. Otherwise everything goes on, and goes on so beautifully. There is no need to improve it, and you cannot improve it.
The master gave him a glimpse of his inner being, because the "Ouch!" came from the very center. It was not of the body, not of the mind. It was of the total, and in that moment he functioned as a spontaneous being, not as a doer.
This functioning can become your whole life -- that's what religion should be. A religious life is a functioning of the spontaneous being. There are situations every moment. You act, but not as a doer, you act spontaneously....
~ Osho, "The Grass Grows By Itself"
More...
....The emperor Wu, in China, asked Bodhidharma immediately: If you say that you are not and nothing is, and emptiness is the very substance of your inner being, then who is this fellow talking to me, standing before me? Bodhidharma shrugged his shoulders and said: I don't know.
Nobody knows, and Buddha says that nobody can know, because it is not a substance that you can encounter as an object; it is no-substance, you cannot encounter it. This Buddha calls realization: when you come to understand that the innermost emptiness cannot be known, it is unknowable, then you have become a realized man.
It is difficult, so let me again explain it to you. You go to a movie. Something beautiful is happening there. The screen is empty. Then the projector starts working. The screen disappears because the projected pictures hide it completely. And what are these projected pictures? Nothing but a play of light and shade. You see somebody throwing a spear on the screen, the spear moves fast. But what is happening exactly? The movement is only an appearance, it is not happening. It cannot happen. In fact a movie is not a movie at all, because it has no movement; all the pictures are still. But an appearance is created through a trick. The trick is that many still pictures of the spear in diferent positions are flashed on the screen so fast that you cannot see the gap between two pictures -- and you have the feeling that the spear is moving. I raise my hand. You take a hundred pictures of my hand in different positions and then flash them so fast that the eyes cannot catch the gap between two pictures. Then you will see the hand being raised. A hundred still pictures, or a million still pictures, are projected and the movement is created. And if the film is a three dimensional film and somebody is throwing a spear, you may be so much taken in by it, that you may lean to the right or to the left to avoid the spear. When three dimensional pictures came into existence for the first time, they scared people. With a horse running at you, you become afraid because the horse is soon going to enter the hall; and you may even lean to the right or left, as the case may be, to avoid the clash. The movement is false, it is not happening there, it is just fast-moving still pictures. And the falseness is not apparent unless you see the film moving very slowly, being projected very slowly.
The same, in a different sense, is happening in life. Thoughts are projected by your mind so fast that you cannot see the gap between two thoughts. The screen is completely covered by the thoughts and they move so fast that you cannot see that each thought is separate. That's what Tilopa says: Thoughts are like clouds, without any roots, with no home. And a thought is not related to another thought; a thought is an individual unit, just like dust particles, separate. But they move so fast you cannot see the gap between. You feel they have a unity, a certain association.
That association is a false notion, but because of that association, ego is created.
Buddha says: Fast-moving thoughts create an illusion, as if there is some center to them, as if they are related to one thing. They are not related, they are without roots -- like clouds. When you meditate you will understand that each single thought is an individual thought, not related to another. Between the two is the emptiness of your being. They come and go, but they come and go so fast that you cannot see the intervals. Ego is created.
And then you start feeling that there is somebody as a center in you to which everything belongs -- thoughts, actions. But Buddha says that there is nobody inside you. When you go deeper you will understand the truth of it: it is not a philosophical doctrine.
Buddha can be defeated very easily by argument; he was thrown out of this country because Indians are great arguers. They have done nothing else for five thousand years but argue, and through argument Buddha can be defeated because the whole thing seems to be absurd. Buddha is saying that there are actions, there is no actor; there are thoughts, there is no thinker; there is hunger, there is satiety; there is illness, there is health; but there is no center to which they all belong. They are just like clouds moving in an empty sky, not related to each other at all. Through experience nobody can defeat Buddha, but through logic it is very simple....
Ha...I have read of Osho many times. He is a highly controversial figure; I never expect that you will post his article in this forum. There is an article that the 16th Gyalwa Karmapa said about Osho’s being a spiritually high achiever in his past lives. The comment by the Holiness Gyalwa Karmapa is often used as a form of endorsement by Osho's followers. I do not know the authenticity but will paste an extract I gathered from this url http://cybercommune.blogspot.com/2005/10/greatest-incarnation-since-buddha-in.html :
“He is the greatest incarnation since Buddha in India — he is a living Buddha!” His Holiness went on to say, “You may be feeling that he is speaking for you, but it is not only for you that he speaks. Osho speaks for the Akashic records also, the records of events and words recorded on the astral planes. Whatever is spoken is not forgotten. That is why you will find that he goes on repeating things and you will feel that he is doing this for you, but as a matter of fact, he speaks only for a few people. Only a few people realize who Osho is. His words will remain there in Akashic records, so that they will also be helpful to people of the future.”
His Holiness went on to say that Osho was with them in past lives. “If you want to see one of Osho’s previous incarnations — who he was in Tibet — you can go to Tibet and see his golden statue there which is preserved in the Hall of Incarnations.”
He went on to say that about Osho and his work, “My blessings are always there, and I know that whatever we are not going to be able to do to help others, Osho will do.” The main aim of the lamas in coming to India was to preserve their occult sciences. Osho also confirmed this in his Kashmir lectures given in 1969. The Dalai Lama has not escaped only to save himself, but to save the Tibetan religion, the meditation secrets and the occult sciences. “We have gotten these things from India in the past, and now we want to return them back. Now we have come to know that here is an incarnation, Osho, who is doing our job in India and the world and we are very happy about it. The world will know him, but only a few people will realize what he actually is. He will be the only person who can guide properly, who can be a World Teacher in this age, and he had taken birth only for this purpose.”
I must admit that unlike Master Lu Sheng Yen, Osho has his insights. Despite all his many nonsensical remarks, the depth of his insight of our pristine nature at times appears extraordinary.
I got to go now, will discuss with you later. :)
Wow... that's quite a claim... I also used to think Osho is a cult teacher before knowing his teachings.
But after looking into his teachings, I find that they are quite good. In fact I was at Kinokuniya on Friday, and there were many Osho books on the shelves (they look very popular here in Singapore and many were on the bestselling shelves of the section), so I bought one of them. But not the one I quoted from (that one I got from internet).
The current Dalai Lama also purportedly said,
"Osho is an
enlightened master who is working with all possibilities to help humanity overcome a difficult phase in developing consciousness."
I also remembering hearing Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche saying something half jokingly in his videos, that actually he is a secret admirer of Osho.
He also said in another interview,
Rajneesh had the guts to have ninety-three Rolls Royces. I call it guts. One Rolls Royce is one thing. Even two or three—but ninety-three is guts! And I don't have the guts, the confidence. I like Rajneesh very much. I like him much better than Krishnamurti. Many of his words are quite good, and I can see why the Westerners would like him.
(more about his cars: http://www.oshoworld.com/biography/innercontent.asp?FileName=biography8/08-20-rolls.txt)
Other than the cars, he also has dozens of bejeweled ladies watches
Funny thing is I dreamt of Osho before, quite some time ago.
I was reading Dr. John Welwood's article again, and while coming across these paragraphs,
We can only perceive the suchness of things through an awareness that opens to them nonconceptualy and unconditionally, allowing them to reveal themselves in their as-it-is-ness. As the poet Basho suggests:
From the pine tree
Learn of the pine tree
And from the bamboo
of the bamboo.
Commenting on these lines, the Japanese philosopher Nishitani (1982) explains that Basho does not mean
That we should ‘observe the pine tree carefully.’ Still less does he mean for us to ‘study the pine tree scientifically.’ He means for us to enter the mode of being where the pine tree is the pine tree itself, and the bamboo is the bamboo itself, and from there to look at the pine tree and the bamboo. He calls on us to betake ourselves to the dimension where things become manifest in their suchness. (p. 128)
In the same vein, Zen Master Dogen advises: “You should not restrict yourselves to learning to see water from the viewpoints of human beings alone. Know that you must see water in the way water sees water” (Izutsu, 1972, p. 140). “Seeing water in the way water sees water” means recognizing water in its suchness, free of all concepts that spring from an observing mind standing back from experience.
It also reminded me of what Thich Nhat Hanh said about the Satipatthana Sutta (the Sutta the Buddha taught on the Four Foundations of Mindfulness) which is also one of the most popular discourses of the Pali canon:
The Satipatthana Sutta, a Buddhist scripture which teaches awareness, uses expressions such as "observing the body in the body," "observing the feelings in the feelings," "observing the mind in the mind," "observing the objects of mind in the objects of mind." Why are the words, body, feelings, mind, and objects of mind repeated? Some masters of the Abhidhamma say that the purpose of this repetition is to underline the importance of these words. I see it otherwise. I think that these words are repeated in order to remind us not to separate the meditator and the object of meditation. We must live with the object, identify with it, merge with it, like a grain of salt entering the sea in order to measure the saltiness of the sea.
Icic...Regardless of what others said, it is not really important. Just some of my comments on his article.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:...And watch minutely -- if you really are walking, is there any walker inside? Walking happens, it is a process. Legs move, hands move, you breathe more, the wind blows in your face, you enjoy; the faster you go, the more vitality you feel -- everything is beautiful. But is there really a walker? Is there somebody sitting inside, or does just the process exist? If you become aware, you will find only the process exists. The ego is illusory: it is just a mind-creation. You eat, and you think there must be somebody who eats, because logic says: How can you walk without a walker inside? How can you eat without an eater being there? How can you love without a lover being inside? This is what logic says. But if you have loved, and if you have come to a moment where love really existed, you must have known that there was no lover inside -- only love, a process, an energy. But nobody inside.
Ok as long as it is not misunderstood as a mechanical process but rather a non-dual experience that object and subject split is an illusion.
You meditate, but is there any meditator? And when meditation comes to a flowering, and all thoughts cease, who is there inside? Is there somebody who says that all thoughts have ceased? If that is there, then still the meditation has not flowered; at least one thought is still there. When meditation flowers there is simply nobody to take note of it, nobody to give it recognition, nobody to say: Yes, it has happened. The moment you say: Yes, it has happened -- it is lost already.
The association of anatta to the cessation of thoughts is a due to a lack of insight that anatta is a seal, not a stage of attainment. In thinking there are always only thoughts, no thinker. In fact it is the realization that the continual arising and ceasing of thoughts without a thinker that is precious. The 2 important qualities that must be experienced are non-dual and spontaneity. Thoughts can slow down or even completely ceased but it has nothing to do with the insight of anatta.
What does Bokuju say? He says: "We dress, we eat." His answer is finished. His answer is complete, perfect. He says simply: we eat, and we dress, and we have never found any problem, and we have never found anybody who can come out. There is nobody inside. Eating exists, dressing exists, ego does not...
...When somebody asked the great master Zenerin: What do you do with your disciples? He said: What do I do? I don't do anything. The questioner asked: But so many things happen around you, you must be doing something. Zenerin said: Sitting quietly, doing nothing, spring comes, and the grass grows by itself.
This is what a master is doing: sitting quietly, doing nothing, waiting for the right moment, the spring. Suddenly, when the disciple and the master meet, there will be spring -- the spring comes, and the grass grows by itself. And this is how it happens. A master simply sits, not doing anything and a disciple waits for the master to do something. Then comes the spring. And the moment they meet, the grass grows by itself....
....THEREUPON, SEKKYO SEIZED THE MONK'S NOSE AND GAVE IT A GREAT YANK.
"OUCH!" YELLED THE MONK, "YOU HURT ME!"
No! The master does not sit quietly doing nothing waiting for the right moment -- the spring nor will there be spring when the disciple and the master meet suddenly.
The ‘sitting quietly’ is already the “the spring comes, and the grass grows by itself!”
Yet it is as loud as "Ouch!"
And this is no different from Bokuju’s "We dress, we eat."
All is just this One single marvelous activity!
That is why practice is everywhere. :)
I see...
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I was reading Dr. John Welwood's article again, and while coming across these paragraphs,
It also reminded me of what Thich Nhat Hanh said about the Satipatthana Sutta (the Sutta the Buddha taught on the Four Foundations of Mindfulness) which is also one of the most popular discourses of the Pali canon:
Yes I fully agree with what Thich Nhat Hanh said. So what is 'suchness' and what is the relationship with anatta?
Originally posted by Thusness:Yes I fully agree with what Thich Nhat Hanh said. So what is 'suchness' and what is the relationship with anatta?
Suchness is the pure sound/sensation/sight left as it is without interference? There is no 'me', just the world presenting itself in its nakedness.
Without self, there is no reference point/self that observes, controls, interpretes, judges, dislikes/likes what is arising. There is no self that can have a relationship with 'what is'. Like you said before isness "is a sensation of not wanting to add or subtract anything from present moment"
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Suchness is the pure sound/sensation/sight left as it is without interference? There is no 'me', just the world presenting itself in its nakedness.
Without self, there is no reference point/self that observes, controls, interpretes, judges, dislikes/likes what is arising. There is no self that can have a relationship with 'what is'. Like you said before isness "is a sensation of not wanting to add or subtract anything from present moment"
By the way, I only said I agree with Master Thich Nhat Hanh's remark on the Satipatthana Sutta. As for the comments of "suchness" made by Dr. John Welwood and the Japanese philosopher Nishitani, you need to be very careful about the meaning of 'suchness'.
Whatever said by them as well as the expressions made by Zen master Dogen and poet Basho should only be understood that they are "refering to or expressing that" quality of experience that is non-dual; non dual experience is not a scientific mode of investigation or an observing mind standing back from experience.
However there is also a strong temptation for practitioners to jump into the conclusion that "this experience of non-dual and the quality of 'pure-ness'" is the 'IT-ness' of things -- an ontological view. Therefore only emptiness of self yet not emptiness of forms.
It must be thoroughly understood that though that non-dual experience of "bamboo" is vividly clear, free from conceptuality, without division of an observer and observed, still there is no "bamboo-ness" found anywhere. Vividly clear yet empty of inherent existence for both self and form -- fully experiencing the 'Forms' of Emptiness yet deeply intuit the Emptiness of 'Forms'. :)
I see...