Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I don't understand your logic.
As far as I am concerned, there are no contradictions whatsoever with doing mathematics and practicing. Obviously if you are doing mathematics you have to follow the laws of mathematics.
That said mathematics only deal with conceptual analysis and can never touch the nature of reality.
Yes you can say mathematics only deal with conceptual analysis and can never touch the nature of reality, i completely agree, that's what i am talking about, those formulars in mathematics,i got to remember it, there is no other way round, if you trying to talking about direct awareness in mathematics, i tell you for most of people doing mathematics there is no much direct awareness around, but only pure formulars, calculation and calculation.
And i believe for alot of people who is in the industry, it's very hard to avoid concept and habit, if you are a freelancer, that may be another issue, for industry, they only concern about the result, no matter how you think or behave, as long as you handle the job well, it's fine.
Yes sometimes we discuss the 佛法, it's perfectly fine, but maybe i have this habit thinking buddhism is not so flexible as taoism, in taoism æ— ä¸ºæ— ä¸�为, it's pure middle way thinking, and very flexible, but buddhism like many think, it's not so flexible, take an example of avoiding habit and conceptualisation, you keep emphasizing on.
i believe this habit and conceptualisation, is not all bad, sometimes you have to wuwei wu buwei, so sometimes, if habit and conceptualisation arise, you don't have to avoid it, just let it be, adhere no interference principle, it's all dependent on individual person, if you really want to avoid habit, it's ok, it's your take, if your habit and conceptuallisation continously arise, you also take it.People is different ,but dharma is universally true, so i think the right path of buddhism is the middle path, never go extreme, never think like i have to avoid habit and conceptualisation, it's all on yourself, if you want to avoid habit and conceptualisation, fine, you have been advanced, if you don't , also fine, buddhism never reject any single person.
Originally posted by rokkie:Yes you can say mathematics only deal with conceptual analysis and can never touch the nature of reality, i completely agree, that's what i am talking about, those formulars in mathematics,i got to remember it, there is no other way round, if you trying to talking about direct awareness in mathematics, i tell you for most of people doing mathematics there is no much direct awareness around, but only pure formulars, calculation and calculation.
And i believe for alot of people who is in the industry, it's very hard to avoid concept and habit, if you are a freelancer, that may be another issue, for industry, they only concern about the result, no matter how you think or behave, as long as you handle the job well, it's fine.
Yes sometimes we discuss the 佛法, it's perfectly fine, but maybe i have this habit thinking buddhism is not so flexible as taoism, in taoism æ— ä¸ºæ— ä¸�为, it's pure middle way thinking, and very flexible, but buddhism like many think, it's not so flexible, take an example of avoiding habit and conceptualisation, you keep emphasizing on.
i believe this habit and conceptualisation, is not all bad, sometimes you have to wuwei wu buwei, so sometimes, if habit and conceptualisation arise, you don't have to avoid it, just let it be, adhere no interference principle, it's all dependent on individual person, if you really want to avoid habit, it's ok, it's your take, if your habit and conceptuallisation continously arise, you also take it.People is different ,but dharma is universally true, so i think the right path of buddhism is the middle path, never go extreme, never think like i have to avoid habit and conceptualisation, it's all on yourself, if you want to avoid habit and conceptualisation, fine, you have been advanced, if you don't , also fine, buddhism never reject any single person.
As I said there is no need to avoid conceptualisation for practical purposes, but when we practice correctly we are not caught up in any thought, interpretation, concept of reality. We do not attach to or lost in any of these thoughts. We are mindful of our thoughts and our experiences.
Like a mirror that perfectly reflects whatever appears, our mind simply reflects/aware of our thoughts and experience but after subsiding the reflections are gone without a trace, does not remain a trace. The mind neither attaches to, nor rejects thoughts and experiences. The bond of the thoughts will loosen if we simply let it does its job, subside and not follow them, and remain aware throughout.
This one Chuang Tzu himself said it. He said “The perfect man employs his mind as a mirror. It grasps nothing; it refuses nothing; it receives but does not keep.”
When we are in the condition of the Mirror itself, reflecting all things, we are not lost in the reflections. We are pure mirror-like awareness. Pure awareness is beyond and prior to concepts, yet does not reject concepts. Without using concepts it is present, even if you use concepts it is still present to allow the concepts to arise, in fact pure awareness is present in the thought itself.
So as Lama Surya Das said,
This is the heart teaching of Mahamudra, of Dzogchen, of Zen, of all the nondual teachings: Sustaining present awareness. Recognizing the Buddha-nature through the present moment, this very moment of awareness. If it's awareness taking the form of thinking, recognize the present awareness component of the thought. If you are remembering the past, recognize the present awareness component of the memory. You're not in the past. How could you be in the past? It is present awareness remembering. If you feel distracted when remembering, bring the mind back to the present awareness. You don't have to stop remembering. Recognize present awareness, which is remembering. If you are dreaming, fantasizing about the future, about what you are going to do when you leave here, how you are going to tell everybody how wonderful it was and how great Dzogchen view and meditation is, that's fine-recognize present awareness fantasizing, planning, dreaming. Recognize who or what is doing that present awareness. Know the knower; see through the seer; go beyond me and mine, and be free.
If you are hurt, you do not feel pain. That's an interpretation of non-reality.
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:If you are hurt, you do not feel pain. That's an interpretation of non-reality.
Buddhism does not accept such theories.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Buddhism does not accept such theories.
So Buddhism does not accept reality not science.
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
So Buddhism does not accept reality not science.
Who said "If you are hurt, you do not feel pain."?
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Who said "If you are hurt, you do not feel pain."?
"If you are hurt, you do not feel pain. That's an interpretation of non-reality."
Missing a part.
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
"If you are hurt, you do not feel pain. That's an interpretation of non-reality."
Missing a part.
I am just saying, Buddhism does not accept the theory that "If you are hurt, you do not feel pain."
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I am just saying, Buddhism does not accept the theory that "If you are hurt, you do not feel pain."
But where does reality end and spirituality start? That would be my next question.
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
But where does reality end and spirituality start? That would be my next question.
True spirituality is founded on direct experience and observation of the nature of reality.
If you want to continue this discussion please create another thread.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:True spirituality is founded on direct experience and observation of the nature of reality.
And if true spirituality is blinded by Resentment ,Anger and Frustration, the observation will be inaccurate.
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
And if true spirituality is blinded by Resentment ,Anger and Frustration, the observation will be inaccurate.
Of course our daily judgements will be blinded by our emotions if we let ourselves become overcome by them.
In the case of arising emotions, as discussed earlier, we should observe the anger as it is (because it is what reality is presenting itself at that moment - as the emotions/feelings) without labeling and analysing. Just be aware with precision of its arising and passing away without following the mental contents.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:If you want to continue this discussion please create another thread.
But will you support the ongoing discussion?
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Of course our daily judgements will be blinded by our emotions if we let ourselves become overcome by them.
In the case of arising emotions, as discussed earlier, we should observe the anger as it is (because it is what reality is presenting itself at that moment - as the emotions/feelings) without labeling and analysing. Just be aware with precision of its arising and passing away without following the mental contents.
But how do one knows that at what limit should one moderate one's view on the arising emotions? Is it an immediate judgement or a long term view?
What do you mean by moderating one's view?
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:What do you mean by moderating one's view?
One must accept that there is a cause for the pain and suffering and there must be a responsible response to the cause. However, there is a chance that the response that may go overboard. So one must moderate.
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
One must accept that there is a cause for the pain and suffering and there must be a responsible response to the cause. However, there is a chance that the response that may go overboard. So one must moderate.
If one simply observes anger without following the mental contents and stories, one does not allow oneself to be overcome by anger. One simply observes all sensations and the raw feeling of anger without acting upon it. Because of that, one will not end up acting harshly out of anger. One's action and judgments will naturally not be clouded because there is awareness of what's going on instead of being totally identified with the thoughts and acting by impulse.
Originally posted by rokkie:Yes you can say mathematics only deal with conceptual analysis and can never touch the nature of reality, i completely agree, that's what i am talking about, those formulars in mathematics,i got to remember it, there is no other way round, if you trying to talking about direct awareness in mathematics, i tell you for most of people doing mathematics there is no much direct awareness around, but only pure formulars, calculation and calculation.
And i believe for alot of people who is in the industry, it's very hard to avoid concept and habit, if you are a freelancer, that may be another issue, for industry, they only concern about the result, no matter how you think or behave, as long as you handle the job well, it's fine.
Yes sometimes we discuss the 佛法, it's perfectly fine, but maybe i have this habit thinking buddhism is not so flexible as taoism, in taoism æ— ä¸ºæ— ä¸�为, it's pure middle way thinking, and very flexible, but buddhism like many think, it's not so flexible, take an example of avoiding habit and conceptualisation, you keep emphasizing on.
i believe this habit and conceptualisation, is not all bad, sometimes you have to wuwei wu buwei, so sometimes, if habit and conceptualisation arise, you don't have to avoid it, just let it be, adhere no interference principle, it's all dependent on individual person, if you really want to avoid habit, it's ok, it's your take, if your habit and conceptuallisation continously arise, you also take it.People is different ,but dharma is universally true, so i think the right path of buddhism is the middle path, never go extreme, never think like i have to avoid habit and conceptualisation, it's all on yourself, if you want to avoid habit and conceptualisation, fine, you have been advanced, if you don't , also fine, buddhism never reject any single person.
I do not think it is labelled as in flexible..as giving labels to such it is already an attachment and differentiation...Buddhism is a term when this group of people form the sangha, and registered to be a religion. Buddha didnt meant to teach buddhism, neither he meant to speak dharma...as for sentinent being like us, we need to rely on it initially, but it is to build this foundation on realisation on correcting views and understanding...
Dharma could not be spoken in the past, present nor future...it is non flexi or flexi, it is how an individual realise the nature of things, and having the right understanding, yet will not be attach or continue to persist it.
There are also people who practise theravada, mahayana and vrajyan, be it which path, it could not search through conceptual nor wordly thesis, as one has to learn is to realise it...its like a man on a raft to cross a river, you need the raft, but ulitmately it is the man who manouer the raft to the right path...we rely on the raft, but once we reach the shore, we discard the raft and we contnue our destination...
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
One must accept that there is a cause for the pain and suffering and there must be a responsible response to the cause. However, there is a chance that the response that may go overboard. So one must moderate.
I do agreed that one has to accept the cause, as once there is pain, the cause has already taken place, which result in the cause. Accepting the cause, and correctly respond to the cause, realise the respond of the mind, and moderating it...this is also part of obseravation. Such observation is dependable on how an individual practise and how sensitive he is. Such mind is hard to relate to text, as everyone has different respond during that stage, and the condition of everyone mind at moments are different.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:If one simply observes anger without following the mental contents and stories, one does not allow oneself to be overcome by anger. One simply observes all sensations and the raw feeling of anger without acting upon it. Because of that, one will not end up acting harshly out of anger. One's action and judgments will naturally not be clouded because there is awareness of what's going on instead of being totally identified with the thoughts and acting by impulse.
I agreed your point too. Action comes after observation.....but there is a point when an individual has no such thought for observation as the mind has been conditioned, rely too much on awareness to subtain the mind, it will also becomes clinging to it, and becomes habitual.....but for the initial stage, it still need awareness to alert the mind on the thoughts, and act upon the thoughts, as practise goes by, it will take more advance steps to resolve the habitual on relying on awareness on containing the impulsive mind.
Originally posted by Bodhi hut:
I agreed your point too. Action comes after observation.....but there is a point when an individual has no such thought for observation as the mind has been conditioned, rely too much on awareness to subtain the mind, it will also becomes clinging to it, and becomes habitual.....but for the initial stage, it still need awareness to alert the mind on the thoughts, and act upon the thoughts, as practise goes by, it will take more advance steps to resolve the habitual on relying on awareness on containing the impulsive mind.
Actually we should rely on awareness throughout the day. Awareness IS our Buddha-Nature, and is constantly, ever-present. Can never be lost, at any moment... only temporarily and 'apparently' 'obscured' due to our fixation on dualistic projections. So our practice is simply to keep coming back to our true nature as Awareness.
Our thoughts always change, they come and go and take different forms, one moment we are thinking of something the next moment we changed our minds. Your intentions, personality, beliefs, any kinds of thoughts are constantly changing. It is totally, totally unreliable. Even if you have one good thought if there is no awareness the next moment it could be a bad thought.
So we must rely on what is ever-present which is pure awareness itself, to abide in pure awareness, which reflects and is aware of all forms, all thoughts. If we are aware of our thoughts and experiences, we will not be identified with them and blindly follow the unreliable stream of conditioned thinking. So my local dharma teacher said, 'yi jue bu yi xin' (rely on awareness, not on the mind)
There is nothing wrong at all with relying on awareness. We should constantly practice that, until one day we realise our true nature then it becomes effortless. We will also realise that all reflections are not apart from the mirror but are of the same substance as the mirror, they are all the mirror’s self-illuminating display. In the advanced stage, when we realise self-liberation, it is like drawing image on water -- it leaves no trace, in the water or in the mirror. Everything simply self-arises and subsides in its own accord within and as pure awareness.
I didnt mention it is wrong to rely on awareness...
i am trying to illustrate 能所�亡 。。。。
Originally posted by Bodhi hut:
I didnt mention it is wrong to rely on awareness...
i am trying to illustrate 能所�亡 。。。。
The collapse of the illusion of subject/object duality can only occur after insight into non-duality and no-self has arisen. Before that, one can only have intermittent non-dual experiences arising through states of absorption (that comes and goes), it can never last.
Another important point is that the collapse of subject/object duality does not mean thoughts and emotions cannot arise. They can arise, but since there is no dualistic projection they do not last. They arise and subside like drawing on water, leaving no trace.
That said it does not mean thoughts and emotions do not arise -- they arise, thoughts arise but there is no thinker apart from thought. There is no watcher watching the thought -- the thought itself is the self-illuminating display of mirror-like awareness. There is no watcher because the thought itself is awareness. Everything is the self-shining display of Buddha-Nature, and there is no one, no separate person apart from this oneness appearing as thoughts, sights, sounds, etc.
At this stage there is totally no stepping back from the reflections, there is no objective relationship with the reflections of the mirror -- mindful awareness is ongoing but without separation from its reflections -- as Thusness would say, The key point about the practice of mindful awareness is there is no keeping of the mind on anything and by not resting on anything, it fuses into everything; therefore it cannot be concentrated; rather it is to relax into nothingness empty of self, empty of any artificial doing so that the natural luminosity can take its own course. There is no focusing, there is only allowing the mirror bright clarity to shine with its natural radiance. In essence there is no one there, only the phenomenon arising and ceasing according to conditions, telling their stories.
Let's solve the problem at root.
The reason why one feel angry or disappointed is because of his own habit and bad karma 业�. It is also a result of lack of compassion.
In my opinion, there are 2 solutions.
1) Repent all your past bad wrong doings. Follow the method taught by great masters, and develop a strong sense of repentance. Be persist and do it everyday. When you receive any suffering, remember you have done it to other people in the past.
2) Practice compassion. Same thing, follow the methods taught by great masters. Also do it everyday. You will see things begin to improve sooner or later.