I dunno whats the fuss, but there are some in the sangha community in thailand that forbid or does not recognise the bhikuni ordination in perth. Ajahn Brahm presided over the ordination and he certainly didnt do anything wrong or against the vinaya.
Didnt Buddha allow and ordain female followers as bhikuni? are there female bhikunis in thailand? whats the reason for some to forbid the ordination?
Yes, Buddha allows female ordination
Furthermore, males can ordain both male and female, but female can only ordain female.
Hence, Ajahn Brahmavamso is fully qualified to ordain a female.
His being expelled from the Thai temple is purely due to politics and ignorance and dogmas.
No, female ordination died along the way in Thailand, but now exists in Sri Lanka.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Yes, Buddha allows female ordination
Furthermore, males can ordain both male and female, but female can only ordain female.
Hence, Ajahn Brahmavamso is fully qualified to ordain a female.
His being expelled from the Thai temple is purely due to politics and ignorance.
No, female ordination died along the way in Thailand, but now exists in Sri Lanka.
you mean ajahn brahm was expelled from the thai temple? this i never heard of before? care to share what happened?
Thailand is a male dominated society. dunno why there are prejudices against female ordination there?
Originally posted by Rooney9:you mean ajahn brahm was expelled from the thai temple? this i never heard of before? care to share what happened?
I mean the recent case,
On October 22, 2009 Ajahn Brahm facilitated an ordination ceremony for bhikkhunis where four bhikkhunis, Venerable Ajahn Vayama, and Venerables Nirodha, Seri and Hasapanna, were ordained into the Western Theravada bhikkhuni sangha. The ordination ceremony took place at Ajahn Brahm's Bodhiyana Monastery at Serpintine (near Perth, WA), Australia. [1].
For his actions of 22 October 2009, on 01 November 2009, at a hastily-convened meeting of senior members of the Thai monastic sangha, held at Wat Pah Pong, Ubon Ratchathani, Thailand, Ajahn Brahm was removed from the Ajahn Chah Forest Sangha lineage and is no longer associated with the main monastery in Thailand, Wat Pah Pong, nor with any of the other Western Forest Sangha branch monasteries of the Ajahn Chah tradition [2].
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I mean the recent case,
On October 22, 2009 Ajahn Brahm facilitated an ordination ceremony for bhikkhunis where four bhikkhunis, Venerable Ajahn Vayama, and Venerables Nirodha, Seri and Hasapanna, were ordained into the Western Theravada bhikkhuni sangha. The ordination ceremony took place at Ajahn Brahm's Bodhiyana Monastery at Serpintine (near Perth, WA), Australia. [1].
For his actions of 22 October 2009, on 01 November 2009, at a hastily-convened meeting of senior members of the Thai monastic sangha, held at Wat Pah Pong, Ubon Ratchathani, Thailand, Ajahn Brahm was removed from the Ajahn Chah Forest Sangha lineage and is no longer associated with the main monastery in Thailand, Wat Pah Pong, nor with any of the other Western Forest Sangha branch monasteries of the Ajahn Chah tradition [2].
why are they like that? whats the rationale of them for doing this do you know?
I'm sure if it's all in America, they wouldn't have such issues. Because America is very open to gender equality.
its prejudices plus ignorance on the part of the monks involved in that decision. or maybe its the karma of ajahn bramh, is it possible?
Originally posted by Rooney9:its prejudices plus ignorance on the part of the monks involved in that decision. or maybe its the karma of ajahn bramh, is it possible?
I think both.
is Ajahn Bramh arhat?
Originally posted by Rooney9:is Ajahn Bramh arhat?
You'll have to ask his sangha's people. As a monk he cannot divulge his level of attainment to lay persons. But monastic members close to him may know.
Without a doubt Ajahn Brahm is a highly accomplished practitioner in terms of both jhana and insight.
thpought it was bikni ordination..saw wrongly
I hope the situation in spore is better than in thailand. by the way, you know why the folks in thailand oppose female ordination?
The Vinaya says that in order for ordination of Bhikunis, it requires a presence of 2 Bhikkus and 2 Bhikunis.
Since the Theravada Lineage for the Bhikunis are long gone after the decline of Buddhism in India, it was generally considered to be lost from the world, in Theravada POV. The Theravada Nuns never set their foot to Thailand or Burma in the past due to the limitation of female nuns to travel far, but they did set their foot to Sri Lanka (which was eventually lost too).
Therefore, some of the senior Theravada monks, are very reluctant to revive the lineage for the very fact that they are NOT the Buddha who was the first person to ordain a Bhikkunis.
So the contention here is : There isn't any more Theravada Nuns in the world today, and ordination of Nuns requires 2 senior Monks and 2 senior Nuns.
If I'm not wrong Ajahn Brahm mentioned there are currently 4000 nuns in Sri Lanka.
http://www.dharma.org/ij/archives/2002a/nuns_ord.htm
After a hiatus of one thousand years, Theravadin women once more have the opportunity to ordain as bhikkhunis and thus become full members of the Sangha. Traditionally the Sangha is composed of fully ordained nuns (bhikkhuna), fully ordained monks (bhikkhu), novice nuns (samanera), and novice monks (samanera).
From the 3rd century BCE when King Ashoka’s son, Mahinda, and daughter. Sanghamitta, brought the ordination lineages of both monks and nuns from India to Sri Lanka, there was a long, proud history of male and female monasticism on this island.
In the 11th century, as a result of war, drought and famine, both the monks’ and nuns’ orders died out in Sri Lanka. The bhikkhu order was revived within one generation by inviting a group of bhikkhus from Siam [Thailand] who fulfilled the requirements for giving bhikkhu ordination. However, as the bhikkhuni order did not exist in any other Theravada country, the requirement that a bhikkhuni receive her ordination from a group of ten bhikkhunis of ten years standing followed by a further ceremony presided over by monks could not be met. Thus the bhikkhuni lineage lapsed.
Hence, since the beginning of the 11th century, women wishing to commit themselves to the renunciate life have had only one option: ten lay precepts. Even the ten precepts of a samaneri have been denied them, since in the Theravada tradition these can be given only by a bhikkhuni. The status of these ten precept nuns, known a Dasa Sil Matas (literally Ten Precept Mothers), is ambiguous; they are considered neither proper monastics nor lay women either.(1)
The situation in the other Theravada countries is even more difficult. It seems that in Thailand and Cambodia there never were bhikkhunis, and although they were possibly present in Burma at one time, there too the lineage did not survive. In modern times, Burma has nuns with the ten lay precepts who, like the Dasa Sil Matas in Sri Lanka, are not thought to be true nuns. In Thailand and Cambodia, even the ten lay precepts are denied women, and the nuns there are restricted to eight precepts with a corresponding diminishment of status.(2)
Thus the four-fold community of fully ordained nuns, fully ordained monks, lay women and lay men, which the Buddha clearly declared was integral to the success of the Buddhadhamma, has been absent from all Theravada countries for one thousand years.
Recently, however, after extensive research by a group of women from Sri Lanka and Europe, it was confirmed that the bhikkhuni lineage extant in Taiwan and Korea is actually of Sri Lankan origin and therefore could legitimately be used to ordain Theravada nuns and restore the bhikkhuni order.
Although I received novice ordination in the Tibetan tradition in 1993, being in my heart a Theravadin and having a long association with the Thai forest tradition, I decided recently to go to Sri Lanka to receive the samaneri vows of the Theravada vinaya school.(3) It was a very happy experience for me, and I came away deeply impressed with the situation that is developing there—impressed with the bhikkhunis and samaneris I met, and inspired by the impact the female sangha is having on their society.
Since the first ordination of Sri Lankan bhikkhunis in 1996, which was conducted in Sarnath, India by Korean monks and nuns, there have been further ordination ceremonies in Bodh Gaya and in Sri Lanka. There are now over 200 fully ordained nuns as well as many novice nuns who are planning to receive the higher ordination, which they are eligible to do after having kept their samaneri vows for two years.
Behind this amazing resurgence is an organization called Sakyadhita, Daughters of the Buddha, which was established at a conference of Buddhist women held in Bodh Gaya in 1987. Since then there have been six Sakyadhita conferences, including one held in Colombo, Sri Lanka in 1993. At the time of that conference there was strong opposition from the religious authorities of Sri Lanka even to placing the topic of bhikkhuni ordination on the agenda. However as an outgrowth of that conference, and from the exposure the Dasa Sil Matas have had to fully ordained nuns from other traditions, the aspiration to revive the Theravada bhikkhuni lineage was born. With careful negotiation over several years and the eventual support of prominent members of the (male) monastic community, the situation changed completely.
It has been said before that there is nothing more powerful than an idea whose time has come.
Much of the vision and energy for the project has come from Mrs. Ranjani de Silva, who attended the first Sakyadhita conference in Bodh Gaya, has been its President since 1995, and who conceived and organized the 3rd conference in Colombo.
During my visit to Sri Lanka I stayed at the Sakyadhita Training Centre established at Panadura, south of Colombo. At the Centre regular programmes are organized for the nuns on such topics as community health care, counseling skills and social development. Nuns come from small nunneries all over the island to attend these training sessions; they seem to be motivated by a strong desire to be of practical benefit in their communities. There are also young nuns attending university where they are studying Pali language, Buddhist philosophy, Buddhist history and other related topics.
In addition to providing the facilities for these training programmes, the Centre is ‘home’ to seven nuns, and I felt privileged to have the opportunity to spend time with them. Some of them are doing university studies, and the older, educated nuns teach. Neighbourhood children come for Dhamma classes; local people, often women, come to talk, to receive advice, or to participate in the evening puja.
On three occasions during my brief stay we were invited out to family homes for the daily meal. Two of these were anniversaries of family deaths, and the senior nuns conducted all the necessary ceremonies with confidence and dignity. In the past it would have been monks fulfilling these functions, so it is significant that some families are now choosing to invite nuns to officiate instead.
For me, however, it is the third invitation that is the most memorable. It came from a rather poor family living just down the lane near the Sakyadhita Centre. When the Centre was first built and the nuns began living there, the husband, known in the neighbourhood as an abusive drunkard who terrorised his family, was deeply hostile to the presence of the nuns. I was told that if he discovered his wife or three young daughters had visited the nuns, they were beaten. And there we were, two years later, being offered a meal by the whole family, sober husband included, in their living room. The reverence, the delight and the quiet pride were palpable.
Ranjani de Silva has extended an invitation to Theravada women
everywhere who
want to ordain to contact her, and she will do whatever she can to
help. She
can be contacted at:
Sakyadhita Training Centre
115/2A Sri Dhammananda Mawatha
Gorakana, Panadura
SRI LANKA
or by email: [email protected]
1) does Ajahn Bramh know about the requirement for female ordination?
2) on what grounds does the folks in Thailand have the right to expel ajahn bramh from order?
Eternal Now:
It's a controversy also the manner the nuns in Sri Lanka were being ordained, and they might not be recognized by the conservative elders in other Theravadin countries.
The theravadin nuns were ordained by the presense of 2 Theravada monks, and 2 Mahayana nuns. That sounds 'ok' if we follow the Vinaya, but you must understand that Theravada traces its ordination to the time of the Buddha, and as far as Theravada nun is concerned, their lineage is 'lost'.
The question here is the abscence of Theravadin nuns in the ordination.
Rooney9:
1. I really have no comment on that, and I would really refrain myself for saying anything further.
2. On Vinaya grounds
if the Buddha was around, what do you think the Buddha would say to this matter?
Originally posted by soul2soul:
Eternal Now:
It's a controversy also the manner the nuns in Sri Lanka were being ordained, and they might not be recognized by the conservative elders in other Theravadin countries.
The theravadin nuns were ordained by the presense of 2 Theravada monks, and 2 Mahayana nuns. That sounds 'ok' if we follow the Vinaya, but you must understand that Theravada traces its ordination to the time of the Buddha, and as far as Theravada nun is concerned, their lineage is 'lost'.
The question here is the abscence of Theravadin nuns in the ordination.
Rooney9:
1. I really have no comment on that, and I would really refrain myself for saying anything further.
2. On Vinaya grounds
The lineage is not actually lost, as stated above,
Recently, however, after extensive research by a group of women from Sri Lanka and Europe, it was confirmed that the bhikkhuni lineage extant in Taiwan and Korea is actually of Sri Lankan origin and therefore could legitimately be used to ordain Theravada nuns and restore the bhikkhuni order.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:The lineage is not actually lost, as stated above,
Recently, however, after extensive research by a group of women from Sri Lanka and Europe, it was confirmed that the bhikkhuni lineage extant in Taiwan and Korea is actually of Sri Lankan origin and therefore could legitimately be used to ordain Theravada nuns and restore the bhikkhuni order.
If i do remember correctly, the first nuns who gave the bhikkhuni ordination in China were nuns who came from Sri Lanka. In fact, a lot of the new Sri Lankan bhikkunis took their ordination at Taiwanese nunneries.
Originally posted by Rooney9:1) does Ajahn Bramh know about the requirement for female ordination?
2) on what grounds does the folks in Thailand have the right to expel ajahn bramh from order?
1. He definetly would know, do look up at the Buddhist Channel about this, especially since he was accorded a rank akin to "Bishop" by the King of Thailand a few years back.
2. None actually. Basically a lot of it was like not following "Thai Law" and "Thai culture" which he was "supposed" to follow, especially after being accorded a high rank. Another thing is also because the ordination was supposedly done in 'secret', ie, not informing the elders at the temple in Thailand before going ahead with the ordination. Of course, if he did let them know, the ordination might not have gone ahead because the Thai side would definetly have disallowed it.
Ven Dr. Yifa’s Response to the Bhikkhuni Ordination at Perth
Thirty years ago, I visited a Buddhist monastery for the first time in my life. Two weeks later, I decided to shave my head and become a nun. At the time, I was a student at the law school of National Taiwan University, and wanted to be a lawyer or even a politician. I had felt, since I was a child, great sympathy toward the suppressed classes in society and was attracted to fairness and justice. These have been the guiding values in my life.
The monastery I visited is called Buddha Light Mountain (Fo Guang Shan). Three decades ago, most of Fo Guang Shan’s members were women and most of them were young, in their twenties and thirties, and with a college education. The whole community was very dynamic and energetic, full of hope and life. The founder of the order, Venerable Master Hsing Yun, called for young and educated people to join the Sangha. During those two weeks, I myself had a personal transformation, and changed my path as a lawyer into that of a monastic.
I was very dedicated to learning and practicing the precepts (the Vinaya). One day, we students were invited by a devotee to stay in a hotel, where the bed in the room was high-up and large. One of the ten precepts is to restrain oneself from sleeping on such a bed. I asked the Venerable Master what I should do. “You need be able to sleep on either the small one or the big one,” he said. “Both are fine.” That was a wonderful lesson, because the reason I came to Buddhism was to look for liberation and not bondage, for the ultimate truth, and not just rules—and some rules in the Vinaya seemed to be unfair, especially the many ones for women.
Later, Venerable Master Hsing Yun encouraged me to go to abroad for my advanced education. With his support and Fo Guang Shan’s sponsorship, I finished a Master’s degree in philosophy from Hawaii University and the Ph.D. in Religion from Yale within eight years. For my dissertation, I decided to study the Vinaya and the monastic codes of India and China. When I finished my dissertation, I cried out, “Gotama! This old man was so wise and kind.” I felt this to be so, because the Buddha left so much flexibility with the rules, so there were exceptions to particular rules whenever they created inconvenience in the Sangha.
The Buddha set up the rules after he attained enlightenment, and then proclaimed one after another; but he also responded to the thoughts of the benefactors of monks and nuns, and modified the rules he initiated. He was so wise, because as he kept reminding monastics to adapt to local customs, something that is repeated in the Vinaya texts again and again.
The Buddha’s most precious teaching concerned “causes and conditions.” Every day, I am aware that the temporal and special conditions where I live are different. The Internet, media, and transportation have reshaped the world and the younger generation is different from my time. As the Buddha taught, the world is changing.
It is hard for us to imagine today that a spiritual institution such as the Church initiated the Christian Inquisition beyond; it’s hard to believe now that suicide bombers carry out their brutality in the name of religion. Buddhism has been viewed as nonviolent; however, its suppression of women’s rights has caught Westerners’ attention. I believe that Buddha left his palace intending to find a solution to the suffering of all human/sentient beings, and not to build a religion called “Buddhism.”
In the twentieth century, Buddhism came to the West. Now, in the twenty-first, it is flourishing. But Buddhism is still strange to the West; those Westerners who leave their native faith to step into an Asian culture must have courage and face tremendous challenges. The system of sponsorship has yet to be built for the Western Sangha; many Westerners who seek the monastic life are still like orphans, with no parents (few teachers who understand they are different) and no home (few monasteries fit their culture). We need to adopt a forgiving and inclusive attitude to welcome them to the Sangha.
I attended a lecture given by one of my best friends, William Ury, co-founder of the Harvard Negotiation Project and author of the bestseller Getting to Yes. At the end of his talk, he quoted the American Poet Edwin Markham. I think there are no better words to fit this situation:
They drew a circle that shut me out,
Heretic, rebel, a thing to flout!
But love and I had the wit to win
We drew a circle that took them in.
There is a simplistic impression that all Theravada monks are against women’s ordination. That is not true. Fo Guang Shan has given several international ordinations; they were all supported by different groups of Theravada monks. Is it possible to use a “humane” way to reconsider this issue rather than focusing on the letter of the law?
Bhikkhuni Yifa
Fo Guang Shan, Taiwan
Now based His Lai Temple, Los Angeles, USA
Originally posted by Voice Up:Ven Dr. Yifa’s Response to the Bhikkhuni Ordination at Perth
Thirty years ago, I visited a Buddhist monastery for the first time in my life. Two weeks later, I decided to shave my head and become a nun. At the time, I was a student at the law school of National Taiwan University, and wanted to be a lawyer or even a politician. I had felt, since I was a child, great sympathy toward the suppressed classes in society and was attracted to fairness and justice. These have been the guiding values in my life.
The monastery I visited is called Buddha Light Mountain (Fo Guang Shan). Three decades ago, most of Fo Guang Shan’s members were women and most of them were young, in their twenties and thirties, and with a college education. The whole community was very dynamic and energetic, full of hope and life. The founder of the order, Venerable Master Hsing Yun, called for young and educated people to join the Sangha. During those two weeks, I myself had a personal transformation, and changed my path as a lawyer into that of a monastic.
I was very dedicated to learning and practicing the precepts (the Vinaya). One day, we students were invited by a devotee to stay in a hotel, where the bed in the room was high-up and large. One of the ten precepts is to restrain oneself from sleeping on such a bed. I asked the Venerable Master what I should do. “You need be able to sleep on either the small one or the big one,” he said. “Both are fine.” That was a wonderful lesson, because the reason I came to Buddhism was to look for liberation and not bondage, for the ultimate truth, and not just rules—and some rules in the Vinaya seemed to be unfair, especially the many ones for women.
Later, Venerable Master Hsing Yun encouraged me to go to abroad for my advanced education. With his support and Fo Guang Shan’s sponsorship, I finished a Master’s degree in philosophy from Hawaii University and the Ph.D. in Religion from Yale within eight years. For my dissertation, I decided to study the Vinaya and the monastic codes of India and China. When I finished my dissertation, I cried out, “Gotama! This old man was so wise and kind.” I felt this to be so, because the Buddha left so much flexibility with the rules, so there were exceptions to particular rules whenever they created inconvenience in the Sangha.
The Buddha set up the rules after he attained enlightenment, and then proclaimed one after another; but he also responded to the thoughts of the benefactors of monks and nuns, and modified the rules he initiated. He was so wise, because as he kept reminding monastics to adapt to local customs, something that is repeated in the Vinaya texts again and again.
The Buddha’s most precious teaching concerned “causes and conditions.” Every day, I am aware that the temporal and special conditions where I live are different. The Internet, media, and transportation have reshaped the world and the younger generation is different from my time. As the Buddha taught, the world is changing.
It is hard for us to imagine today that a spiritual institution such as the Church initiated the Christian Inquisition beyond; it’s hard to believe now that suicide bombers carry out their brutality in the name of religion. Buddhism has been viewed as nonviolent; however, its suppression of women’s rights has caught Westerners’ attention. I believe that Buddha left his palace intending to find a solution to the suffering of all human/sentient beings, and not to build a religion called “Buddhism.”
In the twentieth century, Buddhism came to the West. Now, in the twenty-first, it is flourishing. But Buddhism is still strange to the West; those Westerners who leave their native faith to step into an Asian culture must have courage and face tremendous challenges. The system of sponsorship has yet to be built for the Western Sangha; many Westerners who seek the monastic life are still like orphans, with no parents (few teachers who understand they are different) and no home (few monasteries fit their culture). We need to adopt a forgiving and inclusive attitude to welcome them to the Sangha.
I attended a lecture given by one of my best friends, William Ury, co-founder of the Harvard Negotiation Project and author of the bestseller Getting to Yes. At the end of his talk, he quoted the American Poet Edwin Markham. I think there are no better words to fit this situation:
They drew a circle that shut me out,
Heretic, rebel, a thing to flout!
But love and I had the wit to win
We drew a circle that took them in.
There is a simplistic impression that all Theravada monks are against women’s ordination. That is not true. Fo Guang Shan has given several international ordinations; they were all supported by different groups of Theravada monks. Is it possible to use a “humane” way to reconsider this issue rather than focusing on the letter of the law?
Bhikkhuni Yifa
Fo Guang Shan, Taiwan
Now based His Lai Temple, Los Angeles, USA
hi bhikkhuni yifa , we really would like you to preside as the religious counsel here in wisdom bliss :)
with full time clergy around .the sentient beings here will be rejoiced :)
The problem with Thailand Theravada is serious :
the forest monk follows purely the tradition of the Buddha Sakyamuni and the Town Sangha is prided with Gold and Royal Favour
I feel that Thai Sangha have seriously declined in terms of practise
Originally posted by bohiruci:The problem with Thailand Theravada is serious :
the forest monk follows purely the tradition of the Buddha Sakyamuni and the Town Sangha is prided with Gold and Royal Favour
I feel that Thai Sangha have seriously declined in terms of practise
Let the Elders do their job.