Does any Buddhist here ever saw Buddha?
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Originally posted by googoomuck:
You cannot tell what the consistencies and paradoxes are.
selective reading sia. I rest my case.
How many times want me to repeat sia
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Originally posted by Rooney9:
AEN close this thread, heed my advice.
What good will it do to you?
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Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:
It’s a sincere and curious question. And pls don’t troll.
If so pls share the story.There are three bodies of a body: Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya, Nirmanakaya.
Dharmakaya refers to the eternal truth body of the Buddha, which means it is the nature and essence of reality/ourselves/the universe. Anyone who becomes enlightened realises what Dharmakaya is. Even today, even in this forum, there are people who have become enlightened and 'seen the Buddha'.
The Buddha said those who sees dependent origination sees the dharma, those who sees the dharma sees the Buddha. Those who realises dependent origination/emptiness becomes awake to the nature of the Buddha and is known as having seen the Buddha.
Other than that, there is the Sambhogakaya, which is the celestial body of the Buddha of much greater majesty than a physical manifestation. However a Sambhogakaya can only be seen by a realised Bodhisattva, ordinary people do not see it. My Buddhist Master (Ven Shen Kai) have talked about how he met Amitabha which I believe is a clear description of a Sambhogakaya vision. He even returned with a dharma taught by Amitabha and developed one of the Buddha's 32 major mark which is a white curled hair between the forehead. The story is here: http://buddhism.sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/169512#post_4132828
As for the Nirmanakaya, which is the physical manifestation of Buddha with the 32 major marks and 80 minor marks, there is only one such major Nirmanakaya appearing at any particular time, in other words, as long as the dharma teachings still exists in the face of Earth, there will not be another Nirmanakaya Buddha appearing. The Buddha has prophecised that the next Buddha to appear is Maitreya Buddha, he will appear a very very long time in the future, millions or billions of years later. Maitreya Bodhisattva is currently residing in the Tushita Heaven's court yard, teaching the celestial beings, and will take birth with his celestial students only when the time has come.
We will not see a Nirmanakaya Buddha (i.e. a physical manifestation of a Buddha), because the current age's Buddha, Shakyamuni Buddha's body has been self-cremated in a fire of samadhi 2500+ years ago, leaving only the amazing and miraculous shariras or relics which are not mere bones but multi coloured, jewel like, indestructible relics which have miraculous features like being able to multiply on its own which I have discussed in my first reply in the thread http://buddhism.sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/366959
As for people seeing Buddhas: be careful of people claiming to see Buddhas in meditation etc, unless they are high level Bodhisattvas, it is very easy to be deluded about such visions. In Zen there is a saying: if you see the Buddha, kill the Buddha. It means kill off your attachment to any hallucinatory experience. If the Buddha appears to unenlightened people and cause more confusion and attachment, that is not the real Buddha but one's illusions or maybe a manifestation of a demonic origin (i.e. from the spirit realm or from the 6th heaven where maras stay). If a person is fascinated by such experience and visions, it means he is not spiritually mature enough and is probably experiencing delusory states. He should be adviced to let them go and not be attached to such experiences.
As my Master wrote in http://www.jenchen.org.sg/vol7no4c.htm
Volume 7 no 4
Voice of Bliss
All forms are illusions
Buddhism is truly detached from idols
People who think that Buddhism is the worshipping of an image of the Buddha, or that the Buddha is somebody whom we can appeal to for favours, should know of two very profound verses from the Diamond Sutra that contradict these popular beliefs. To the intellectual, they can lay to rest the suspicion that Buddhism is superstition. To those who are used to praying for divine intervention, they can become self reliant through their own virtuous karma.
It is stated in the Diamond Sutra, “He who sees me (Buddha) in forms or seeks me in sounds is on a heterodox path and cannot see the Tathagata (Buddha).” It further states that, “All forms are but illusions, in seeing that all forms are illusory, one sees the Tathagata”. It is only when we have attained a certain advanced level in the learning and practising of Buddhism that we will be able to understand the profound meaning of these verses. If you were to tell a person who has just started to learn Buddhism that learning Buddhism is like these verses, then he would find them too profound. He would not be able to make out what Buddha is like. Of course, he knows what human beings are like and quite naturally he will assume that only those who are similar in form to human beings are Buddhas. We can say that this is correct, but we can also say that this is wrong. For example, kindergarten teachers may use drawings of an old man and old woman when teaching the young children about grandfathers and grandmothers. Thereafter, when the children see other old folks in such resemblance they know that they are someone else’s grandparents. But, to university students it would be inappropriate for professors to use the same approach when talking about such blood relationships.
It is the same in learning Buddhism. When we encourage a new student of Buddhism to pay respect to the Buddha in the temple or monastery, he will not be frightened when he sees that the Buddha is the same as a human being. At the same time, when he sees that the Buddha and Bodhisattva images are so dignified and compassionate, it will give rise to a feeling of joy and reverence and lead him to learn Buddhism.Often we come across people who have been learning Buddhism for a long time saying that they saw this Buddha or that Bodhisattva in their dreams. Initially, when we do not know about their level of understanding of Buddhism, we may praise them by saying, “Oh! You have such good affinity with Buddha and Bodhisattva that you can even see their images!” But it is wrong if we always praise them like this. If they report dreams like this for more then 3 times, you have to tell them, “The Mara is here, you have seen the Mara! All the Zen masters advise to obliterate the Buddha when the Buddha appears, and obliterate the Mara when the Mara appears [1].” We cannot praise them any more because they have already developed an attachment to forms.
In the same way, when we are dealing with people who are already advanced in Buddhism, we should use the method of the Diamond Sutra rather than the kindergarten method:
“He who sees me (Buddha) in forms or seeks me in sounds is on a heterodox path and cannot see the Tathagata (Buddha).”
“All forms are but illusions, in seeing that all forms are illusory, one sees the Tathagata.”At this level, people will realize that Buddhism is the only religion that eradicates superstition and attachment to all forms.
Critics often say that the Buddha image is an idol. They criticize that Buddhism worships idols. In reality, the cross, the Jesus Christ image and Mother Mary, they are also idols. In this sense, is there a religion that does not worship idols? Therefore, we cannot say that Buddhism is the only religion that worships idols. The fact is that only Buddhism does not worship idols. The Diamond Sutra states, “All forms are but illusions, in seeing that all forms are illusory, one sees the Tathagata.”!
The essence of the Buddha, the Buddha Nature is omnipresent in the space of the Dharma realm, and the Dharma Nature is omnipresent in the space.
Notes:
1. To ignore and not to be attached to such forms;. Mara is the Evil One, described as a murderer, hinderer, disturber, destroyer, etc.
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No I will not close this thread for now.
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A more detailed explanation of the Three Bodies of the Buddha by my Buddhist Master:
Volume 9 Issue No. 3
All Form is Non-formby Venerable Master Shen-KaiThe myriad of things and phenomena in this world are formed by aggregations of numerous causes and conditions comprising four elements: earth, water, fire and wind. As such, they do not have independent natures of their own. A tree, for example, is the result of a combination of nutrients, water, sunlight and air. Thus, they are in fact empty because when the conditions that created and sustained them are no longer present, these objects will return to emptiness. However, we don't see them in this light. We think they are real, absolute and permanent. But they are not. They are dependent upon other conditions. We need to truly comprehend and awaken to this fundamental truth of emptiness.
The phrase 'all form is non-form' is from the Diamond SÅ«tra.
Buddha said, "SubhÅ«ti, what do you think? Can we use our ordinary flesh-eyes to see the TathÄ�gata’s physical form and thus believe we are seeing the true TathÄ�gata ?"
SubhÅ«ti replied, "No, World-honoured One. We cannot look upon the unreal form of the TathÄ�gata’s manifestation and think we have perceived the non-arising and non-ceasing true body of the TathÄ�gata."
How is that? The 16-foot physique of the TathÄ�gata is a bodily form produced by an aggregation of causes and conditions. When life ends, that body decays and eventually vanishes. It is not the truly pure Dharma-kÄ�ya of the TathÄ�gata because the Dharma-kÄ�ya has no form to be seen; it is empty and tranquil. How could flesh-eyes of sentient beings see the true form of the TathÄ�gata’s Dharma-kÄ�ya?
Buddha told SubhÅ«ti, "Not only is the TathÄ�gata’s bodily form a false form produced by the aggregation of causes and conditions, which does not have real substance, so is any kind of thing in the universe, in this world as well as beyond this world. All living and non-living things, shapes and colours are merely formed by aggregations of causes and conditions. They are impermanent and will change as causes and conditions disperse. They are as illusory as the flower in the mirror or the moon in the water!
"If looking at appearances of objects, sentient beings are able to lucidly awaken to its aggregation of causes and conditions, and understand impermanence, their arising and ceasing; and if at that very instant, distinguishing does not arise, then without discrimination, they can enter into deep stillness. In stillness, pure wisdom reveals itself. With supreme wisdom, they realise that all worldly form is created by causes and conditions. Its nature is empty; it is not reality. In this way, they will directly perceive the TathÄ�gata’s Dharma-kÄ�ya."
Subhūti was the Arahat who best understood emptiness. Thus, with regards to emptiness, he had profound realisation. We see this in a story:
Once, Buddha went to the heavenly palace of TrayastrimÅ›Ä�s to preach Dharma to his mother. He only returned to earth after having been gone for a few months. All of his disciples missed him. When he returned, they rushed to welcome him, each hoping to be the first to pay their respects to him. Being the most advanced in supernatural ability amongst the Buddha's female disciples, BhiksunÄ« Lián-huÄ�-sè (蓮花色) used her supernatural powers and transformed herself into the image of Saint-king CakravartÄ«. Then, with great poise, she went to stand right up in front. She very happily paid her respects toBuddha and said, "Disciple Lián-huÄ�-sè is the first to pay respects to Buddha today. Oh, I’m overjoyed!"
Buddha replied with a smile, "Lián-huÄ�-sè, the first to see the TathÄ�gata wasn’t you. It was SubhÅ«ti!"
BhiksunÄ« Lián-huÄ�-sè was astonished! SubhÅ«ti had not joined in the queue to welcome the Buddha. How could he have been the first to meet the Buddha?
Buddha then said, "The bodily form of the Tath�gata is not seen by our perceptions. He who sees the Dharma, sees the Tath�gata."
As it turned out, when Buddha returned to earth, Subhūti had been in the meditation hall sitting in stillness, deeply observing the emptiness of all things and phenomena, clearly understanding the reality of inherent emptiness, and thus realising the formless Dharma-k�ya of Tath�gata. Even though he had not been there in the queue, he had in fact truly seen the Tath�gata.
Buddha has three bodies (TrikÄ�ya). One is 'NirmÄ�na-kÄ�ya'(化身), or the 'Emanation Body'. According to the sentient beings' capacity for understanding, Buddha manifests the illusory forms of physical bodies in numerous worlds. Because of their heavy karmic hindrances, some disciples were only able to see the 16-foot golden body of the Buddha, but were unable to see the 32 physical characteristics and 80 accompanying physical features of a great person (i.e. DvÄ�trimÅ›advara-laksana and Anuvyañjana).
Another body of Buddha is 'Sambhoga-k�ya' (报身), or the 'benefiting body', of which are two kinds: one is the 'body which benefits oneself', and the other is the 'body which benefits others'. The former is the Buddha's own attainment and awakening to his meritorious intrinsic pure Buddha-nature, in the state of Dharma joy. The latter is the appearance of enlightened, liberated Bodhisattvas to guide beginner-Bodhisattvas (i.e. sentient beings who emulate Bodhisattvas and practise the Bodhisattva Way) according to prevailing causalities, enabling these beginner-Bodhisattvas to benefit from the teachings of Greater Vehicle (Mah�y�na) with Dharma joy. Both Nirm�na-k�ya and Sambhoga-k�ya are physical forms which are visible. However, the perfect Sambhoga-k�ya of Great Bodhisattvas is a form that is infinite and of awesome majesty. It is not something that ordinary sentient beings like us can see. What ordinary people see is the Nirm�na-k�ya form.
The third body of Buddha, named 'Dharma-kÄ�ya'(法身), is the Truth Body of the TathÄ�gata, and also the reality of all phenomena. It permeates all of space and is omnipresent. An ancient sage said, "Green bamboos are entirely Dharma-kÄ�ya, luxuriant chrysanthemums are all PrajñÄ�; each grass, each tree, all in the ocean of Buddha-nature. Green bamboos are used for expressing the state of Dharma-kÄ�ya, but bamboos are by no means Dharma-kÄ�ya. Luxuriant chrysanthemums are used for displaying the function of PrajñÄ�, but chrysanthemums are by no means PrajñÄ�."
The myriad of things and phenomena in this world are formed by aggregations of numerous causes and conditions comprising four elements and five skandhas , arising by causality and ceasing by causality; their nature is inherently empty. And everything in the world is as such. They do not exist as individual entities. Hence, the nature of all things and phenomena is empty, tranquil and all pervasive. However, people are unaware of this and are grasping on to their belief that the numerous forms in the universe truly exist. But if you can truly comprehend this and awaken to the realisation that the nature of all forms is emptiness, then instantaneously you perceive the pure Dharma-k�ya of Tath�gata.
© Copyright 2002.Jen Chen Buddhism Centre
Designed by DCS Solutions Ltd -
When I see buddha, I feel peace withing my mind.
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Originally posted by Rooney9:
selective reading sia. I rest my case.
How many times want me to repeat sia
i think by now we realise its many of us vs agogoboy
troll doesnt know or do not wanna stop
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
As my Master wrote in http://www.jenchen.org.sg/vol7no4c.htm
Volume 7 no 4
Voice of Bliss
All forms are illusions
Buddhism is truly detached from idolsCritics often say that the Buddha image is an idol. They criticize that Buddhism worships idols. In reality, the cross, the Jesus Christ image and Mother Mary, they are also idols. In this sense, is there a religion that does not worship idols? Therefore, we cannot say that Buddhism is the only religion that worships idols. The fact is that only Buddhism does not worship idols.
Notes:
1. To ignore and not to be attached to such forms;. Mara is the Evil One, described as a murderer, hinderer, disturber, destroyer, etc.
Just a note: What I have understood so far is, the Jesus Christ and Mother Mary image applies in the context of Catholic practitioners. For protestant Christians, there is no Jesus Christ image, but a Cross made of wood or metal. The Cross serves to remind Christians of God's great love for them in the form of sending Jesus, his heavenly son, to die on the cross to liberate all human beings from the burden of their sins.
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Originally posted by Spnw07:
Just a note: What I have understood so far is, the Jesus Christ and Mother Mary image applies in the context of Catholic practitioners. For protestant Christians, there is no Jesus Christ image, but a Cross made of wood or metal. The Cross serves to remind Christians of God's great love for them in the form of sending Jesus, his heavenly son, to die on the cross to liberate all human beings from the burden of their sins.
Yes, and that is why my Master specifically mentioned 'the cross' as well as being an idol.
p.s. my Master used to be a protestant Christian pastor who once wrote a book on the study of bible
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
No I will not close this thread for now.
Why would anybody suggest closing this thread? Thanks for your detailed explanation. Like I said I was seeking sincere answer to my question. I have plenty questions from your answer but seeing how Laurence and Rooney who are well known trolls in eternal hope can't help themselves not to troll here either I better end here. -
Feel free to ask any time :)
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Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:
Why would anybody suggest closing this thread? Thanks for your detailed explanation. Like I said I was seeking sincere answer to my question. I have plenty questions from your answer but seeing how Laurence and Rooney who are well known trolls in eternal hope can't help themselves not to troll here either I better end here.
Hmm....... you sound sincere. Go ahead and ask AEN, he is very knowledgeable. I am also keen to know. Don't worry about Laurence and Rooney, they are ok as long as you are sincere. By the way, what prompted you to ask this question ? Just curious. -
Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:
Why would anybody suggest closing this thread? Thanks for your detailed explanation. Like I said I was seeking sincere answer to my question. I have plenty questions from your answer but seeing how Laurence and Rooney who are well known trolls in eternal hope can't help themselves not to troll here either I better end here.You are well known troll in whole of sgforums, its disgusting that you are acting all innocent and pushing the blame to others
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Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:
Hmm....... you sound sincere. Go ahead and ask AEN, he is very knowledgeable. I am also keen to know. Don't worry about Laurence and Rooney, they are ok as long as you are sincere. By the way, what prompted you to ask this question ? Just curious.He is not sincere
Even his fellow christian who has been in sgforums for a long time made the same note
Its one thing being nice to strangers, its another to be nice to trolls
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Even if he isn't sincere, also nevermind.
My Master used to be a Christian pastor who insulted Buddhism (claiming it is superstitious and demonic which is due to a gross misunderstanding of what Buddhism is) wherever he go because of the pressure by other Christian pastor friends who did the same thing.
When his university lecturer asked him to stop his blatant insult and do something more professional like researching on what Buddhism is about to write a proper thesis on the faults of Buddhism that he actually went to the libraries to find out what Buddhism is about.
After he read through the books, he converted to a Buddhist monk.
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its ok
i know he is not sincere and shall commit to an all out war with him
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From EH to Buddhism Wisdom Bliss. Whats next ? Where is next ?
I see yous all.
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we still have about 3 or 4 more religious forums, and one or two atheists ones
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Sweet as. I wait until it invades there.Let me know. lol! I respect the buddhism wisdom going ons here, and shall not put forth any comments here and reserve my comments because i lack the understanding of Buddhist teachings. Since its also my dad's side de religion.
Carry on gentlemen.
I shall observe, maybe can learn a thing or two.. and see through more clearly some forumners either lack of capicity, understanding,character, flaws and/or the modus operandi of some individuals.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Yes, and that is why my Master specifically mentioned 'the cross' as well as being an idol.
p.s. my Master used to be a protestant Christian pastor who once wrote a book on the study of bible
Wow, that's an interesting fact about your Master's past. It's off topic, but why is the cross considered an idol? I wonder how will Christians react when they come across such views from Buddhists. What can or should I say when they ask for further clarification? You can pm if you wish to keep your reply relevant to the TS's thread.
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Originally posted by Spnw07:
Wow, that's an interesting fact about your Master's past. It's off topic, but why is the cross considered an idol? I wonder how will Christians react when they come across such views from Buddhists. What can or should I say when they ask for further clarification? You can pm if you wish to keep your reply relevant to the TS's thread.
Any kind of form or idol representing a great person becomes an idol. Christ or Buddha cannot be found in any forms, grasping on any forms becomes an attachment and an obscuration to the realisation of our true nature and Christ/Buddha's true nature.
i⋅dol
–noun
1. an image or other material object representing a deity to which religious worship is addressed. 2. Bible. a. an image of a deity other than God. b. the deity itself. 3. any person or thing regarded with blind admiration, adoration, or devotion: Madame Curie had been her childhood idol. 4. a mere image or semblance of something, visible but without substance, as a phantom. 5. a figment of the mind; fantasy. 6. a false conception or notion; fallacy. -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Any kind of form or idol representing a great person becomes an idol. Christ or Buddha cannot be found in any forms, grasping on any forms becomes an attachment and an obscuration to the realisation of our true nature and Christ/Buddha's true nature.
i⋅dol
–noun
1. an image or other material object representing a deity to which religious worship is addressed. 2. Bible. a. an image of a deity other than God. b. the deity itself. 3. any person or thing regarded with blind admiration, adoration, or devotion: Madame Curie had been her childhood idol. 4. a mere image or semblance of something, visible but without substance, as a phantom. 5. a figment of the mind; fantasy. 6. a false conception or notion; fallacy.
Erms, I'm not asking about dictionary definition...
I'm asking for how to clarify to Christians as a Buddhist when they get to read or listen to views from Buddhists that their Cross is considered an idol, as written by your Master in your one of your quoted texts.
Chirst and Buddha cannot be found in any forms, then why do they appear to us in human form? Grasping to any forms becomes attachment, then grasping that there is no form or no form to grasp should equally be interpreted as becoming attached as well, isn't it?
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Originally posted by Spnw07:
Erms, I'm not asking about dictionary definition...
I'm asking for how to clarify to Christians as a Buddhist when they get to read or listen to views from Buddhists that their Cross is considered an idol, as written by your Master in your one of your quoted texts.
Chirst and Buddha cannot be found in any forms, then why do they appear to us in human form? Grasping to any forms becomes attachment, then grasping that there is no form or no form to grasp should equally be interpreted as becoming attached as well, isn't it?
Sages appear only to help us realise our true nature and let go of all self attachment, not to cause further attachment, and that is the point. If we mistake the finger for the moon, then we fail.
In Christianity, the highest goal is to achieve union with Christ. It is realising in direct experience what Christ is, without a dualistic relationship (I and God) but rather, the dissolving of the 'me' into Christ - I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. (Galatians 2:20)
The cross is the symbol of such a crucification, but if they do not 'crucify with Christ' but instead treat the cross as some special symbol to attach to or wear on their necks or whatever, then that's mistaking the finger for the moon.
There is something by Eckhart Tolle which I think is good, even though it is not Buddhist, it can lead to an important realisation.
From 'The Power of Now', Eckhart Tolle
Christ: The Reality Of Your Divine Presence
Don't get attached to any one word. You can substitute "Christ" for presence, if that is more meaningful to you. Christ is your God essence or the Self, as it is sometimes called in the East. The only difference between Christ and presence is that Christ refers to your indwelling divinity regardless of whether you are conscious of it or not, whereas presence means your awakened divinity or God-essence.Many misunderstandings and false beliefs about Christ will clear if you realize that there is no past or future in Christ. To say that Christ was or will be is a contradiction in terms. Jesus was. He was a man who lived two thousand years ago and realized divine presence, his true nature. And so he said: "Before Abraham was, I am." He did not say: "I already existed before Abraham was born." That would have meant that he was still within. the dimension of time and form identity. The words I am used in a sentence that starts in the past tense indicate a radical shift, a discontinuity in the temporal dimension. It is a Zen-like statement of great profundity. Jesus attempted to convey directly, not through discursive thought, the meaning of presence, of self realization. He had gone beyond the consciousness dimension governed by time, into the realm of the timeless. The dimension of eternity had come into this world. Eternity, of course, does not mean endless time, but no time. Thus, the man Jesus became Christ, a vehicle for pure consciousness. And what is God's self-definition in the Bible? Did God say "I have always been, and I always will be?" Of course not.That would have given reality to past and future. God said: "I AM THAT I AM." No time here, just presence.
The "second coming" of Christ is a transformation of human consciousness, a shift from time to presence, from thinking to pure consciousness, not the arrival of some man or woman. If "Christ" were to return tomorrow in some externalized form, what could he or she possibly say to you other than this: "I am the Truth. I am divine presence. I am eternal life. I am within you. I am here. I am Now."
Never personalize Christ. Don't make Christ into a form identity. Avatars, divine mothers, enlightened masters, the very few that are real, are not special as persons. Without a false self to uphold, defend, and feed, they are more simple, more ordinary than the ordinary man or woman. Anyone with a strong ego would regard them as insignificant or, more likely, not see them at all.
If you are drawn to an enlightened teacher, it is because there is already enough presence in you to recognize presence in another. There were many people who did not recognize Jesus or the Buddha, as there are and always have been many people who are drawn to false teachers. Egos are drawn to bigger egos. Darkness cannot rec-ognize light. Only light can recognize light. So don't believe that the light is outside you or that it can only come through one particular form. If only your master is an incarnation of God, then who are you? Any kind of exclusivity is identification with form, and identification with form means ego, no matter how well disguised.
Use the master's presence to reflect your own identity beyond name and form back to you and to become more intensely present yourself. You will soon realize that there is no "mine" or "yours" in presence. Presence is one.
Group work can also be helpful for intensifying the light of your presence. A group of people coming together in a state of presence generates a collective energy field of great intensity. It not only raises the degree of presence of each member of the group but also helps to free the collective human consciousness from its current state ofmind dominance. This will make the state of presence increasingly more accessible to individuals. However, unless at least one member of the group is already firmly established in it and thus can hold the energy frequency of that state, the egoic mind can easily reassert itself and sabotage the group's endeavors. Although group work is invaluable, it is not enough, and you must not come to depend on it. Nor must you come to depend on a teacher or a master, except during the transitional period, when you are learning the meaning and practice of presence.