Does any Buddhist here ever saw Buddha?
-
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Sages appear only to help us realise our true nature and let go of all self attachment, not to cause further attachment, and that is the point. If we mistake the finger for the moon, then we fail.
In Christianity, the highest goal is to achieve union with Christ. It is realising in direct experience what Christ is, without a dualistic relationship (I and God) but rather, the dissolving of the 'me' into Christ - I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. (Galatians 2:20)
The cross is the symbol of such a crucification, but if they do not 'crucify with Christ' but instead treat the cross as some special symbol to attach to or wear on their necks or whatever, then that's mistaking the finger for the moon.
There is something by Eckhart Tolle which I think is good, even though it is not Buddhist, it can lead to an important realisation.
From 'The Power of Now', Eckhart Tolle
Christ: The Reality Of Your Divine Presence
Don't get attached to any one word. You can substitute "Christ" for presence, if that is more meaningful to you. Christ is your God essence or the Self, as it is sometimes called in the East. The only difference between Christ and presence is that Christ refers to your indwelling divinity regardless of whether you are conscious of it or not, whereas presence means your awakened divinity or God-essence.Many misunderstandings and false beliefs about Christ will clear if you realize that there is no past or future in Christ. To say that Christ was or will be is a contradiction in terms. Jesus was. He was a man who lived two thousand years ago and realized divine presence, his true nature. And so he said: "Before Abraham was, I am." He did not say: "I already existed before Abraham was born." That would have meant that he was still within. the dimension of time and form identity. The words I am used in a sentence that starts in the past tense indicate a radical shift, a discontinuity in the temporal dimension. It is a Zen-like statement of great profundity. Jesus attempted to convey directly, not through discursive thought, the meaning of presence, of self realization. He had gone beyond the consciousness dimension governed by time, into the realm of the timeless. The dimension of eternity had come into this world. Eternity, of course, does not mean endless time, but no time. Thus, the man Jesus became Christ, a vehicle for pure consciousness. And what is God's self-definition in the Bible? Did God say "I have always been, and I always will be?" Of course not.That would have given reality to past and future. God said: "I AM THAT I AM." No time here, just presence.
The "second coming" of Christ is a transformation of human consciousness, a shift from time to presence, from thinking to pure consciousness, not the arrival of some man or woman. If "Christ" were to return tomorrow in some externalized form, what could he or she possibly say to you other than this: "I am the Truth. I am divine presence. I am eternal life. I am within you. I am here. I am Now."
Never personalize Christ. Don't make Christ into a form identity. Avatars, divine mothers, enlightened masters, the very few that are real, are not special as persons. Without a false self to uphold, defend, and feed, they are more simple, more ordinary than the ordinary man or woman. Anyone with a strong ego would regard them as insignificant or, more likely, not see them at all.
If you are drawn to an enlightened teacher, it is because there is already enough presence in you to recognize presence in another. There were many people who did not recognize Jesus or the Buddha, as there are and always have been many people who are drawn to false teachers. Egos are drawn to bigger egos. Darkness cannot rec-ognize light. Only light can recognize light. So don't believe that the light is outside you or that it can only come through one particular form. If only your master is an incarnation of God, then who are you? Any kind of exclusivity is identification with form, and identification with form means ego, no matter how well disguised.
Use the master's presence to reflect your own identity beyond name and form back to you and to become more intensely present yourself. You will soon realize that there is no "mine" or "yours" in presence. Presence is one.
Group work can also be helpful for intensifying the light of your presence. A group of people coming together in a state of presence generates a collective energy field of great intensity. It not only raises the degree of presence of each member of the group but also helps to free the collective human consciousness from its current state ofmind dominance. This will make the state of presence increasingly more accessible to individuals. However, unless at least one member of the group is already firmly established in it and thus can hold the energy frequency of that state, the egoic mind can easily reassert itself and sabotage the group's endeavors. Although group work is invaluable, it is not enough, and you must not come to depend on it. Nor must you come to depend on a teacher or a master, except during the transitional period, when you are learning the meaning and practice of presence.
I wonder how many Christians will understand the explanation you have given here.
"The only difference between Christ and presence is that Christ refers to your indwelling divinity regardless of whether you are conscious of it or not, whereas presence means your awakened divinity or God-essence."
And how do we know that whether we are experiencing indwelling divinity or awakened divinity?
If we cannot know or are unconscious of Christ, our indwelling divinity, then we won't be able to awaken our indwelling divinity which is presence right?
And more importantly, am I really suppose to give this lengthy and profound clarification to Christians who ask why Buddhists think their Cross is an idol?
-
Originally posted by Spnw07:
I wonder how many Christians will understand the explanation you have given here.
"The only difference between Christ and presence is that Christ refers to your indwelling divinity regardless of whether you are conscious of it or not, whereas presence means your awakened divinity or God-essence."
And how do we know that whether we are experiencing indwelling divinity or awakened divinity?
If we cannot know or are unconscious of Christ, our indwelling divinity, then we won't be able to awaken our indwelling divinity which is presence right?
And more importantly, am I really suppose to give this lengthy and profound clarification to Christians who ask why Buddhists think their Cross is an idol?
No, giving them a short answer will do, like anything in place of Christ itself can be an obscuration to the true Spirit of Christ which has no form. If you focus on a representation of Christ instead of on the Christ itself, it becomes idolatry. It is not the statue or the cross or the whatever that is the problem but the mindset of the Christian.
For example someone in the internet said,
My argument is simple. When one uses a crucifix as a physical symbol of faith, that person is practicing idolatry by using the idol (crucifix) as the focus of the reverence. When a Christian grabs his / her crucifix necklace to gain comfort in times of trial, he or she is in effect worshiping the crucifix, thereby practicing idolatry.As for whether they are experiencing divinity, as long as there is still a sense of doubt or a sense of 'me' being separate from Christ, or a sense of 'me' at all that experiences Christ, then one is still in doubt and delusion of the ego, or false identification with the small self identified with the mind and body. Union means there is no separation of you and Christ, no more illusion of a separate me, that false sense of identity has dissolved back to the Source, leaving only Christ itself. "The great I AM, the pure radical subjectivity or witness" -- that which alone cannot be doubted. (See http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/05/some-writings-on-non-duality-by-ken.html) It is not that it is a special experience, but is already the Ground of Being/all experiences, the source of all creation at all times. There is a pure certainty of being, having touched the ground/source of which everything emerges from and subsides while the ground itself remains unmoved. You will also understand what German writer and theologian Meister Eckhart mean by '“The eye with which I see God is the same eye with which God sees me”'
As I wrote in another forum:
You can't run away from You, for that attempt to run away is simply a thought arising in the clear presence of You. Even if one wants to doubt that I AM Presence, that I AM Presence is present as that to which the doubting arises, and that is undeniable, so the doubt is without basis. So it is certainly not just an experience that is available at a particular meditative state or a particular experience, it just goes unnoticed for most people whose attention is almost constantly fixated on and chasing after their conceptual notion of self and things. But Presence can never be lost anytime (it is timeless) and that is not separate at all from you -- It cannot be made an object of observation from a point of view of an observer, for you are never separate from IT -- this Presence that you are, being of the nature of cognizance is Self-Knowing. Therefore as I state earlier, that pure I AMness is non-dual, non-separate. For it is YOU/I, so when one who realises it feels that he/she has touched his innermost core of being.
And also you will know what 'God' is without a doubt:
(Thusness)
Like a river flowing into the ocean, the self dissolves into nothingness. When a practitioner becomes thoroughly clear about the illusionary nature of the individuality, subject-object division does not take place. A person experiencing “AMness” will find “AMness in everything”. What is it like?
Being free individuality -- coming and going, life and death, all phenomenon merely pop in and out from the background of the AMness. The AMness is not experienced as an ‘entity’ residing anywhere, neither within nor without; rather it is experienced as the ground reality for all phenomenon to take place. Even the moment of subsiding (death), the yogi is thoroughly authenticated with that reality; experiencing the ‘Real’ as clear as it can be. We cannot lose that AMness; rather all things can only dissolve and re-emerges from it. The AMness has not moved, there is no coming and going. This "AMness" is “God”.
This is not Buddhist teaching, so I am getting a little off topic.
-
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
No, giving them a short answer will do, like anything in place of Christ itself can be an obscuration to the true Spirit of Christ which has no form. If you focus on a representation of Christ instead of on the Christ itself, it becomes idolatry. It is not the statue or the cross or the whatever that is the problem but the mindset of the Christian.
For example someone in the internet said,
My argument is simple. When one uses a crucifix as a physical symbol of faith, that person is practicing idolatry by using the idol (crucifix) as the focus of the reverence. When a Christian grabs his / her crucifix necklace to gain comfort in times of trial, he or she is in effect worshiping the crucifix, thereby practicing idolatry.Ah, the above comment by an unknown online figure gives a rather clear guideline. thanks AEN.
As for whether they are experiencing divinity, as long as there is still a sense of doubt or a sense of 'me' being separate from Christ, or a sense of 'me' at all that experiences Christ, then one is still in doubt and delusion of the ego, or false identification with the small self identified with the mind and body. Union means there is no separation of you and Christ, no more illusion of a separate me, that false sense of identity has dissolved back to the Source, leaving only Christ itself. "The great I AM, the pure radical subjectivity or witness" -- that which alone cannot be doubted. (See http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/05/some-writings-on-non-duality-by-ken.html) It is not that it is a special experience, but is already the Ground of Being/all experiences, the source of all creation at all times. There is a pure certainty of being, having touched the ground/source of which everything emerges from and subsides while the ground itself remains unmoved. You will also understand what German writer and theologian Meister Eckhart mean by '“The eye with which I see God is the same eye with which God sees me”'
As I wrote in another forum:
You can't run away from You, for that attempt to run away is simply a thought arising in the clear presence of You. Even if one wants to doubt that I AM Presence, that I AM Presence is present as that to which the doubting arises, and that is undeniable, so the doubt is without basis. So it is certainly not just an experience that is available at a particular meditative state or a particular experience, it just goes unnoticed for most people whose attention is almost constantly fixated on and chasing after their conceptual notion of self and things. But Presence can never be lost anytime (it is timeless) and that is not separate at all from you -- It cannot be made an object of observation from a point of view of an observer, for you are never separate from IT -- this Presence that you are, being of the nature of cognizance is Self-Knowing. Therefore as I state earlier, that pure I AMness is non-dual, non-separate. For it is YOU/I, so when one who realises it feels that he/she has touched his innermost core of being.
And also you will know what 'God' is without a doubt:
(Thusness)
Like a river flowing into the ocean, the self dissolves into nothingness. When a practitioner becomes thoroughly clear about the illusionary nature of the individuality, subject-object division does not take place. A person experiencing “AMness” will find “AMness in everything”. What is it like?
Being free individuality -- coming and going, life and death, all phenomenon merely pop in and out from the background of the AMness. The AMness is not experienced as an ‘entity’ residing anywhere, neither within nor without; rather it is experienced as the ground reality for all phenomenon to take place. Even the moment of subsiding (death), the yogi is thoroughly authenticated with that reality; experiencing the ‘Real’ as clear as it can be. We cannot lose that AMness; rather all things can only dissolve and re-emerges from it. The AMness has not moved, there is no coming and going. This "AMness" is “God”.This is not Buddhist teaching, so I am getting a little off topic.
Hmm, it sounds like Buddhist teaching to me. As in no separate, fixed self from Christ. So a little surprised here. Since you sound detailed in your explanation, I really thought you were explaining using Buddhist teachings on the divinity and presence concept.
Anyway, if the TS doesn't mind, then there's no issue of you being off topic. So it's the TS's views that we need to seek.
-
No, the I AMness or ground of reality spoken here is not only experienced by Buddhist practitioners. It is found in basically all religions, the Hindus Advaita Vedanta, the Christian Mystics, the Islamic Sufis, the Jewish Kabbalah, the Taoists, the and so on, they all had practitioners who realise this.
However, the I AMness is only Stage 1 of Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment
It is still not the realisation of Anatta or Shunyata. Dissolving the ego into a large Self, a metaphysical essence, God, Brahman, etc, is not in accord with Buddhist emptiness teachings. However many practitioners including in Buddhism will go through this I AMness phase. Practitioners up to Thusness Stage 4 have not overcome the view of an Ultimate Reality of a metaphysical essence.
As Thusness says,
Although there is non-duality in Advaita Vedanta, and no-self in Buddhism, Advaita Vedanta rest in an “Ultimate Background” (making it dualistic), whereas Buddhism eliminates the background completely and rest in the emptiness nature of phenomena; arising and ceasing is where pristine awareness is. In Buddhism, there is no eternality, only timeless continuity (timeless as in vividness in present moment but change and continue like a wave pattern). There is no changing thing, only change. -
Most of the Buddhists know that it is common for the well practised Buddhists to foretell the day they would pass away. Amitabha would appear in their dreams and told them the exact day that He was coming to bring them to Pureland. In some cases, family members of the deceased would see Amitabha on the day the Buddhist passed away.
One of my friend's father-in-law told his family members that Amitabha would bring him to Pureland in 4 days time. His father-in-law passed away on the 4th day.
Another case was from my friend. He told me the family members of the well practised Buddhist were all Buddhists did not see Amitabha on the day their mother passed away, instead one her daughter who was a Catholic saw Amitabha. May be Amitabha wishes to engage the non-Buddhist through skilful means.
For those who are interested, below are the darhma talks by Chin Kong Fa Shi on Buddhists who could foretell when they would pass away.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8MknOmZqF0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5k1Rx9Yr7Q
In fact, there are many talks on this topic.
-
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
No, the I AMness or ground of reality spoken here is not only experienced by Buddhist practitioners. It is found in basically all religions, the Hindus Advaita Vedanta, the Christian Mystics, the Islamic Sufis, the Jewish Kabbalah, the Taoists, the and so on, they all had practitioners who realise this.
However, the I AMness is only Stage 1 of Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment
It is still not the realisation of Anatta or Shunyata. Dissolving the ego into a large Self, a metaphysical essence, God, Brahman, etc, is not in accord with Buddhist emptiness teachings. However many practitioners including in Buddhism will go through this I AMness phase. Practitioners up to Thusness Stage 4 have not overcome the view of an Ultimate Reality of a metaphysical essence.
As Thusness says,
Although there is non-duality in Advaita Vedanta, and no-self in Buddhism, Advaita Vedanta rest in an “Ultimate Background” (making it dualistic), whereas Buddhism eliminates the background completely and rest in the emptiness nature of phenomena; arising and ceasing is where pristine awareness is. In Buddhism, there is no eternality, only timeless continuity (timeless as in vividness in present moment but change and continue like a wave pattern). There is no changing thing, only change.So why do you say you are being off-topic?
-
Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:
Most of the Buddhists know that it is common for the well practised Buddhists to foretell the day they would pass away. Amitabha would appear in their dreams and told them the exact day that He was coming to bring them to Pureland. In some cases, family members of the deceased would see Amitabha on the day the Buddhist passed away.
One of my friend's father-in-law told his family members that Amitabha would bring him to Pureland in 4 days time. His father-in-law passed away on the 4th day.
Another case was from my friend. He told me the family members of the well practised Buddhist were all Buddhists did not see Amitabha on the day their mother passed away, instead one her daughter who was a Catholic saw Amitabha. May be Amitabha wishes to engage the non-Buddhist through skilful means.
For those who are interested, below are the darhma talks by Chin Kong Fa Shi on Buddhists who could foretell when they would pass away.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8MknOmZqF0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5k1Rx9Yr7Q
In fact, there are many talks on this topic.
It's true that well-practised Buddhists of the Amitabha Buddha's Pureland Dharma Door can know clearly in advance, their date of passing away.
However, in Singapore, such real-life stories are not publicly made known (not well enough in my opinion). Hence I have the wish to be part of a group that has the pure and sincere intention and commitment to compile such stories into a user-friendly and widely distributable format (physical or online media) for the benefit of all, Buddhists or non-Buddhists.
I hope to find a group that records such real-life stories on film, with the permission of their family members, and then respectfully, accurately edit and narrate them, if possible. These stories should also make it to print in the form of books.
-
Originally posted by Spnw07:
So what do you say you are being off-topic?
Off topic as in talking about the teachings and experience of non-Buddhist contemplatives, about God, etc.
However it is not exactly off topic because even a Buddhist needs to know what exactly they will go through and what others have gone through, and why it is not exactly 'there' in terms of Buddhist enlightenment.
-
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Off topic as in talking about the teachings and experience of non-Buddhist contemplatives, about God, etc.
However it is not exactly off topic because even a Buddhist needs to know what exactly they will go through and what others have gone through, and why it is not exactly 'there' in terms of Buddhist enlightenment.
I felt that you were talking about the teachings and experiences of non-Buddhist stuff using Buddhist terminologies and concepts, hence I didn't think that you were off-topic.
-
Originally posted by Spnw07:
It's true that well-practised Buddhists of the Amitabha Buddha's Pureland Dharma Door can know clearly in advance, their date of passing away.
However, in Singapore, such real-life stories are not publicly made known (not well enough in my opinion). Hence I have the wish to be part of a group that has the pure and sincere intention and commitment to compile such stories into a user-friendly and widely distributable format (physical or online media) for the benefit of all, Buddhists or non-Buddhists.
I hope to find a group that records such real-life stories on film, with the permission of their family members, and then respectfully, accurately edit and narrate them, if possible. These stories should also make it to print in the form of books.
I have seen a VCD which recorded a Hindu lady who chanted Amitabha when she was suffering from cancer. The film showed from the day she suffered in pain till she was relieved from pain by chanting Amitabha. She was also able to foretell the exact day she would pass away. If I am not wrong, this VCD was filmed in Malaysia.
It will be easier to film the pheonomenon after the chanting event as it happens quite frequently in Singapore's Buddhist Temple. Devotees at Bee Low See Temple (near Bukit Timah) used to see pheonomenon after 水陆法会 which is held once in 2 years. I saw it once myself, it was sometime in May last year. At least I know for the past 3 events, the devotees saw the pheonomenon without fail. Some claimed that they saw Buddha.
I will keep you guys inform when they hold the next event. You will not believe it till you see with your own eyes.
-
what is 水陆法会?
-
Originally posted by Rooney9:
what is 水陆法会?
It is the biggest chanting event in Buddhism. During this event, the monks will chant all the scriptures in Buddhism. It takes about a month and the devotees will join the chanting on the last week of the event.
The pheonomenon will usually happen immediately or within 15 minutes after the chanting event is officially over (on the very last day of the event).
-
Originally posted by googoomuck:
He got a point.
Christians are often asked by these monkeys if any Chrisitan has seen Jesus or God.
umm, who are these monkeys you are referring to? ARe you one of them?? Damn bloody rude of you, christian to say it. Did god teach you this?? -
Originally posted by Fantagf:
umm, who are these monkeys you are referring to? ARe you one of them?? Damn bloody rude of you, christian to say it. Did god teach you this??Hi Dharma Brother, please don't be angry anymore! Let sleeping dogs lie!
Let hear more about the phenomenon Dawnfirstlight is talking about, it is interesting!
-
Originally posted by Weychin:
Hi Dharma Brother, please don't be angry anymore! Let sleeping dogs lie!
Let hear more about the phenomenon Dawnfirstlight is talking about, it is interesting!
I know, as a Buddhist, we should not cling on to the phenomenon. You know, the monks at Beeh Low See Temple couldn't bother to lift up their head to look at the phenomenon, they just walked passed the excited devotees who were looking at the sky. May be they were laughing at us for being 大惊�怪。However, to those who are not Buddhist yet, they need proof and evidence. Some of my friends who are free thinker say they would rather remain as free thinker till they are proven that Buddha or God exists.
In fact, the phenomenon at Beeh Low See Temple is well known among the Buddhists.
-
Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:
I know, as a Buddhist, we should not cling on to the phenomenon. You know, the monks at Beeh Low See Temple couldn't bother to lift up their head to look at the phenomenon, they just walked passed the excited devotees who were looking at the sky. May be they were laughing at us for being 大惊�怪。However, to those who are not Buddhist yet, they need proof and evidence. Some of my friends who are free thinker say they would rather remain as free thinker till they are proven that Buddha or God exists.
In fact, the phenomenon at Beeh Low See Temple is well known among the Buddhists.
Walking along the mountain path were you and I at different times,
As we trodded, you looked up, while I, down
You saw the magnificent mounyains soaring up the skies,
And I, the meandering river down the river aisle,
Were there anyone who had cared to inspect,
Will surely see the path with our tracks!
-
Hi just like to share in short. Pardon my english n language.
I have briefly glanced through this topic and know i shld not grown into attachment or mentioned too many times, but i know sharing will indirectly give many beginners more faith, even if bad for oneself but benefit all, y not.
Happen in year 2006, one day i went to Singapore Buddhist Lodge at Kim yam there with "possessed" gf. After which the night or next night i had a dream,
I was in the sky, everywhere around me was white clouds, infront of me was Buddha Shakyamuni(He look exactly the same as the one at S'pore Buddhist Lodge main hall) if i am 1cm tall, Buddha Shakyamuni will be around 20cm bah.
Buddha Shakyamuni then talk to me, i couldnt hear what he was telling me, all i know is i saw his lips moving, but i cant hear anything. After which the dream stop. When i awoke i still can remember the dream clearly.
I know in science will explain, u just visit the temple, when u think too much, u dream of it. Very normal. But what i can say is a dream cannot change a person thinking and character.
Reason simple, i was so afraid of ghost then, hafing this obstacle with gf then, was in total fear. Buddha gave me courage and knowledge in the dream, when i awoke, my fear is gone and i understand the sufferings of spirits and whats karma. Prior to the dream i am a taoist.
-
Originally posted by vintage_tf:
Hi just like to share in short. Pardon my english n language.
I have briefly glanced through this topic and know i shld not grown into attachment or mentioned too many times, but i know sharing will indirectly give many beginners more faith, even if bad for oneself but benefit all, y not.
Happen in year 2006, one day i went to Singapore Buddhist Lodge at Kim yam there with "possessed" gf. After which the night or next night i had a dream,
I was in the sky, everywhere around me was white clouds, infront of me was Buddha Shakyamuni(He look exactly the same as the one at S'pore Buddhist Lodge main hall) if i am 1cm tall, Buddha Shakyamuni will be around 20cm bah.
Buddha Shakyamuni then talk to me, i couldnt hear what he was telling me, all i know is i saw his lips moving, but i cant hear anything. After which the dream stop. When i awoke i still can remember the dream clearly.
I know in science will explain, u just visit the temple, when u think too much, u dream of it. Very normal. But what i can say is a dream cannot change a person thinking and character.
Reason simple, i was so afraid of ghost then, hafing this obstacle with gf then, was in total fear. Buddha gave me courage and knowledge in the dream, when i awoke, my fear is gone and i understand the sufferings of spirits and whats karma. Prior to the dream i am a taoist.
Thanks for sharing. I am glad that Buddha has blessed you the wisdom to see the truth.
Hope that there will be more people coming up here to share their experience.
-
Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:
Thanks for sharing. I am glad that Buddha has blessed you the wisdom to see the truth.
Hope that there will be more people coming up here to share their experience.
I agree wholeheartedly. Whether anyone's experience is good or bad, real or false, as long as they are willing to share, we should develop a sincere and calm attitude in listening.
Next we would use the Buddha's teachings to guide us on how to interpret the different lessons to be learnt from each sharing.
To interpret stories in ways that would help each and everyone of us to see the reality of karma, the 4 Noble Truths and the 8 fold Noble Paths.