Buddhism: Pluto is hell
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Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:
It is like an illusion but it is not an illusion. For eg, ask someone who is dying or just escape from death, he will tell you life is like an illusion.
You can also feel that life is an illusion when few days ago, you spoke to that person, few days later you called him but his hp was not in use, worse still someone called and told you that he had passed away. You would have sleepless night thinking life is so fragile and like an illusion.
Yes that happened to me alot of times I get so afraid. :(
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
This is an article by Longchen in 2008.
The non-solidity of existence
This article describes a spiritual insight. It may be quite hard to understand.
The things that we experience are registered by all the sense organs. The eye sight registers vision, the ears register sound, the body registers sensations. These perception, sensations and experiences are not happening in some places. They are the experience of the arising of certain conditions. There is no solidity and physicality in the actual experience.
What we experienced is not universal and common to all. Here's an example to illustrate that: We know that as human beings, we see in term of colours. Some animals are however colour-blind, thus they see differently from us. But none of us, is really seeing the truth nature directly. The senses of different species of sentient beings experience things differently. So who is seeing the real image of an object? None.
Likewise, the various planes of existence are due to different conditions arising. In certain types of meditation, one is said to be able to access these planes of existence. This is because they are not specific locations. They are mental states and are thus non-localised. In these meditations, our consciousness changes and 'aligned' more with these other states or planes of existence.
All the planes of existence are simultaneously manifesting, but because our senses are human-based conditioned arisings, we only see the human world and other beings that shared 'similar' resonating arising conditions. But nevertheless, the other planes of existences are not elsewhere in some other places.
What we think of as places are really just consciousness and there is no solidity whatsoever. Even our touch sense is just that. The touch sense gives an impression of feeling something that is physical and three-dimensional. But there is really no solid self-existing object there. Instead, it is simply the sensation that gives the impression of physical solidity and form.
OK, that all I can think of and write about this topic. I will revise and improve this article where the need arises.
For your necessary ponderance. Thank you for reading.
These articles are parts of a series of spiritual realisation articles .An interesting and related video on teleportation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb1u9zOPwiQ&feature=player_embedded
Longchen really need to check the state of his mind in IMH, all the stress of buddhist comtempletation must have gotten to him.The 5 senses tells a person what is happening around him and thus cannot be illusionary.How does one percieve reality and reality itself are inter-related. Though sounds, sights, feel and smell are not physical and tangible by nature, they exist and thus are real by themselves.
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Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
Longchen really need to check the state of his mind in IMH, all the stress of buddhist comtempletation must have gotten to him.The 5 senses tells a person what is happening around him and thus cannot be illusionary.How does one percieve reality and reality itself are inter-related. Though sounds, sights, feel and smell are not physical and tangible by nature, they exist and thus are real by themselves.
This just shows that Buddhism is just an off-shoot of hinduism, believing that nothing exists. They think we are in Plato's cave or The Matrix. Siao. And if nothing actually exists to him why did he post this here to non-existent people? LOL
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Originally posted by Larryteo:
This just shows that Buddhism is just an off-shoot of hinduism, believing that nothing exists. They think we are in Plato's cave or The Matrix. Siao. And if nothing actually exists to him why did he post this here to non-existent people? LOL
When we see things only in one plane, things appears solid or permanent.
Think of a flower, chances are you will visualise a stalk with petals and colours, but in real life, the origin of the flower begins with a flowering plant, branching out with a bud slowing sprouting into a flower. Then the flower start to wilt into shriver ing clump and drops to the ground later to decompose back into the ground.
We are fortunate to be educated in science to understand cycle of life, and the processes that influence it. Buddhism is about this examination, it's called impermanence
We are all processes in action, only difference is timespan. All go through the same processes, even inanimate objects. Even the sun will eventually be no longer be!
Our conciousness as of now are dependant of our body and the senses, it is conditions depending. So this also different from other concepts of an independent entity or "soul",and also an external entity "creator", God if you so choose to call it.
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Originally posted by Larryteo:
Yes that happened to me alot of times I get so afraid. :(
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Originally posted by Weychin:
What you are fear losing is due to attachment to form. Someone you know, is alive,talking and kicking one moment, the next, he is dead not longer alive. That why the form of the person is not "real" or is actually impermance.
Everything is subject to change, nothing remains the same! In fact everthing within our conciousness should be attached with the label "conditions apply"!
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Originally posted by Fantagf:
Heard from an acquaintance who practises Theravada buddhism.Anyway, it is confusing and unbelievable that hell is pluto
The other Pluto I know is the roman god of the underworld, or Hades in the greek mythology. We usually refer the underworld as Hades, so he may be be trying to use the word Pluto to refer to hell.
However, hell is use to indicated immense suffering, the underworld is an abode for the dead. There is a difference!
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Originally posted by Larryteo:
This just shows that Buddhism is just an off-shoot of hinduism, believing that nothing exists. They think we are in Plato's cave or The Matrix. Siao. And if nothing actually exists to him why did he post this here to non-existent people? LOL
Obviously you haven't been following what I've been telling you.
As a brilliant 20 year old guy from another forum who had experiential realisation of Anatta (after practicing Buddhism for just a year. Thusness said he has deep karmic connection with Buddhism) said -
(Just a note: when he talks about 'mind', he is not talking about mind as a thought or a concept. He is talking about 'mind' as your undeniable true self, pure awareness, that which knows everything, it is pure presence and existence that pervades and is not other than the entire manifest universe [non-dual])
Look, there is a reality out there. There is something present that doesn't just vanish when you approach it. Now what is present is ungraspable but it is not a nothingness. Like take a mirage for instance. That is a perfect example of an actual illusion. When you approach and investigate that mirage, it dissapears. That means there was never anything there to begin with. It was actually just a nothingness that you were tricked into believing was something actually present. Now if I am looking at this chair and I find that the chair cannot be said to exist, not exist, both or neither then the chair still doesn't disappear does it? Now, there is still a dependently arisen chair obviously present. Yet as is said, the chair is like an illusion because it is always changing and it has no self substance. But it not actually an illusion because it isn't actually just a nothingness. It doesn't vanish like a real illusion that I described would. So the chair is both real and like an illusion but not an illusion.
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I just told you. When you said "where is it?", it is right there. It is that which knows, it is that knowingness, that awakeness. It is formless, that is you cannot see that basic illuminating quality of awareness yet, really, it is also all forms. Because there is no seeing apart from the seen, hearing apart from the sound, etc. I'll quote Bodhidharma for you in his "Bloodstream Sermon"
"Student: But if they don't define it, what do they mean by mind?
Bodhidharma: You ask. That's your mind. I answer. That's my mind. If I had no mind how could I answer? If you had no mind, how could you ask? That which asks is your mind. Through endless kalpas" without beginning, whatever you do, wherever you are, that's your real mind, that's your real buddha. This mind is the buddha" says the same thing. Beyond this mind you'll never find another Buddha. To search for enlightenment or nirvana beyond this mind is impossible. The reality of your own self-nature the absence of cause and effect, is what's meant by mind. Your mind is nirvana. You might think you can find a Buddha or enlightenment somewhere beyond the mind', but such a place doesn't exist."
Got it?
If you deny that you have a mind, you are a nihilist and you are not following any tradition of Buddhism. As I've said numerous times, the mind is obviously present. For instance, in order to deny you had a mind, you would have to use your mind thereby refuting your own position. The mind may be the one and only thing that we absolutely cannot doubt the existence of because it as sensations, thoughts, etc. is the first and final basis of our reality. It is present but it just that it is dependently arisen and impermanent (always changing). Dependent arising means that there is something (well not a "thing") present. That is what it implies. There is something there that is arising dependently. That is why it avoids nihilism. This "something" is sometimes called a "clearly apparent non existent" or a "mere appearance." It is clearly apparent because you can't deny that there is something there yet it is not truly existent.
I don't laugh at the question of "who am I?." I've thoroughly investigated that and I have found that "I" am a individual mindstream which has currently taken the form of a human being and which continuously changes and arises dependently and is thus empty. This mindstream is not nothing but it is not something (truly existent). It is beginningless and endless. There is no controller in this mindstream which is outside of the sensations manipulating the sensations. Any supposed controller would be inseparable from the sensations themselves. That is, there are not "two" things in this mindstream - a hearer and hearing. There is just one happening in which the hearer and hearing are undivided. Now I don't know everything about who "I" am yet but I do know some very very important things. And I am not going to deny that.
No, no, no no, those words are not flexible at all. They have very precise meanings within Buddhism. Dependent arising can't be used to mean independent and impermanence cannot be used to mean permanence. You can't just have words mean whatever you want them to mean. You will get absolutely nowhere and will only confuse yourself.
As to how the mind "comes" from immaterial things, you have to understand that at the deepest level, the mind and material things are said to be undivided. There is no border between them. You can see this for yourself if you investigate deeply. Now this particular area - the "all is mind" stuff is something that I'm just getting into right now. So bear with me here. The ways I see this is that the mind is the all and the mind has parts and whatever has parts if empty. For instance, the mind as hearing is the all - yet that mind as hearing has parts - the person, the stick, the bell, the ears, etc. So it is empty because that mind does not have own being apart from all those parts. The whole which is the mind does not have independent being apart from the parts which make it up and the parts do not have independent being apart from other parts. Thus the parts and whole (the mind) are both empty................
Look, this is it basically. First, all is mind. This means that if we really look into our own experience, all we can find is the mind. There is actually no border or division between mind and matter at the deepest level. So we can say "all is mind". Yet this mind is empty because it is always changing and because it arises dependently. What does it depend on? Take a moment of hearing for instance. In that moment, the stick, bell, a previous moment of mind, etc. are conditions for (or parts that make up) that total moment of experience of mind. Without these things, that moment of mind could not be. Thus it and all other moments of mind come about dependently on parts, causes and conditions. So the mind is not truly existent. Yet it is also not non existent. This is because there is obviously something present. And it is because without a "thing" (existence) there cannot the absence of a thing (non existence). In order for there to absence, there must be something that is absent. This is why the term unborn is sometimes used. If something has never been born, it cannot be absent. It has never been there to be absent in the first place! Because there is not existence or non existence, there is also not both. How could there be both? That is just taking two wrong views and putting them together. So not both. Then we can't say neither either. For to say neither existence or non existence we would still be presuming that there is existence and non existence both of which we have previously refuted. So we can't say neither.
So the mind (or mindstream) is undeniably present yet it is not existent, not non existent, not both and not neither. In the end, it is ultimately ungraspable. Yet we can still talk about it's presence validly on the relative level. And actually the relative and absolute are the same. I should mention here that the relative is dependently arisen phenomena and the ultimate is emptiness. The relative and absolute are actually the same because whatever is dependently arisen is empty and vice versa. So in the end, the mind's undeniable dependently arisen relative presence is it's ultimate ungraspability. Strange huh? This is why I talked about being in the world and out of it at the same time. Being in the world IS being out of the world (unaffected by it). It is really the best of both worlds. That's it, a very very basic summary of the mind's nature. This is certainly not all there is to the mind. Not by a long shot. But as to the whole thing about the stick, the bell, immaterial, material, arising, etc. this is basically it................
No, reality is very real. It's just that mind is really all there is. Reality is certainly not an abstraction. If you kick a rock that pain you feel is not an abstraction, it is very real. Thinking like this is going into more nihilism, saying that everything is just an abstraction. -
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
Longchen really need to check the state of his mind in IMH, all the stress of buddhist comtempletation must have gotten to him.The 5 senses tells a person what is happening around him and thus cannot be illusionary.How does one percieve reality and reality itself are inter-related. Though sounds, sights, feel and smell are not physical and tangible by nature, they exist and thus are real by themselves.
Like a red flower that is so vivid, clear and right in front of an observer, the “redness” only appears to “belong” to the flower, it is in actuality not so. Vision of red does not arise in all animal species (dogs cannot perceive colours) nor is the “redness” an attribute of the mind. If given a “quantum eyesight” to look into the atomic structure, there is similarly no attribute “redness” anywhere found, only almost complete space/void with no perceivable shapes and forms. Whatever appearances are dependently arisen, and hence is empty of any inherent existence or fixed attributes, shapes, form, or “redness” -- merely luminous yet empty, mere Appearances without inherent/objective existence. What gives rise to the differences of colours and experiences in each of us? Dependent arising... hence empty of inherent existence. This is the nature of all phenomena.
As you've seen, there is no ‘The Flowerness’ seen by a dog, an insect or us, or beings from other realms (which really may have a completely different mode of perception). ‘'The Flowerness' is an illusion that does not stay even for a moment, merely an aggregate of causes and conditions. Analogous to the example of ‘flowerness’, there is no ‘selfness’ serving as a background witnessing either -- pristine awareness is not the witnessing background. Rather, the entire whole of the moment of manifestation is our pristine awareness; lucidly clear, yet empty of inherent existence. This is the way of ‘seeing’ the one as many, the observer and the observed are one and the same. This is also the meaning of formlessness and attributelessness of our nature. -
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche (http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/search/label/Chogyal%20Namkhai%20Norbu%20Rinpoche):
Conditioned by the mind, one becomes strongly habituated to illusory actions. And then it's the same as far as pure Enlightenment is concerned; beyond one's own mind there is no dazzling light to come shining in from outside to wake one up. If one recognizes one's own intrinsic State as pure from the beginning and only temporarily obscured by impurities, and if one maintains the presence of this recognition without becoming distracted, then all the impurities dissolve. This is the essence of the Path. Then the inherent quality of the great original purity of the Primordial State manifests, and one recognizes it and becomes the master of it as a lived experience. This experience of the real knowledge of the authentic original condition, or the true awareness of the State, is what is called Nirvana. So Enlightenment is nothing other than one's own mind in its purified condition. For this reason Padma Sambhava said: "the mind is the creator of Samsara and of Nirvana. Outside the mind there exists neither Samsara nor Nirvana." Having thus established that the basis of Samsara and Nirvana is the mind, it follows that all that seems concrete in the world, and all the seeming solidity of beings themselves, is nothing but an illusory vision of one's own mind.
Just as a person who has a 'bile' disease sees a shell as being yellow even if one can see objectively that that is not its true color, so in just the same way, as a result of the particular karmic causes of sentient beings, the various illusory visions manifest. Thus, if one were to meet a being of each of the six states of existence on the bank of the same river, they would not see that river in the same way, since they each would have different karmic causes. The beings of the hot hells would see the river as fire; those of the cold hells would see it as ice; beings of the hungry ghost realm would see the river as blood and pus; aquatic animals would see it as an environment to live in; human beings would see the river as water to drink; while the demi-gods would see it as weapons, and the gods as nectar. This shows that in reality nothing exists as concrete and objective. Therefore, understanding that the root of Samsara is truly the mind, one should set out to pull up the root. Recognizing that the mind itself is the essence of Enlightenment one attains liberation. Thus, being aware that the basis of Samsara and Nirvana is only the mind, one takes the decision to practice.
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Originally posted by Larryteo:
Yes that happened to me alot of times I get so afraid. :(
Your conceptualization about self is what makes you scared. Because you want your self to exist concretely. Such fears dissolve when one sees what Mind is. One should start enquiring 'Who am I?' Negating all concepts and ideas, we're left with a basic undeniable aliveness, presence, knowing - which is unconstructed, naked, bare, not conjured up by thoughts but is just simply and undeniably present.
In reality, all there is is Mind, awareness, knowingness. Nothing could arise or exist apart from your present knowingness. There is no separate identity, separate experiencer, self, behind things, because whatever arise is basically the manifestation of pure presence and awareness. Awareness and phenomena are not-two. And as phenomena, they dependently originate, as explained above, different people experience things differently, so the world actually does not exist in a separate, concrete and objective manner, but is actually a manifestation of Mind - it is not unreal, because it is vividly and clearly and undeniably present as the manifestation of pristine awareness. As we see, Mind does not exist in a permanent and separate way, but it is not the same as non-existence, because everything is clearly experienced, clearly seen, so there is a basic undeniable presence of awareness. Mind, your true nature, is empty of extremes like existence, non-existence, etc.
Everything is clearly, vividly, undeniably, presently appearing. But nothing is graspable or inherently existing, but simply appears due to dependent origination. Everything is just a magical, empty yet vivid appearance of Mind.
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Originally posted by soul2soul:
I am practicing Theravada, and this is the first time I have heard of it. LOL
Thanks for telling me.A friend of mine is looking for Theravada temple in Singapore, would you mine telling me which are the one that preach reliable teachings that she can visit?
Thanks.
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Originally posted by Larryteo:
Yes that happened to me alot of times I get so afraid. :(
If it happened to you many times, I am puzzled why you cannot understand the concept of nothingness and emptiness. In fact, you are very close, just need a little more in-depth thinking.I do not know whether this analogy is suitable. A human being is made up of bones, skins, blood, flesh, needs air and so on. Any one of these give you problem or no longer functioning, the person is close to collapse. Thus, human being is not stand alone.
If you observe all the things around you, nothing exists without combination. Thus, they do not actually exist, they exist because of combination.
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Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:
If it happened to you many times, I am puzzled why you cannot understand the concept of nothingness and emptiness. In fact, you are very close, just need a little more in-depth thinking.I do not know whether this analogy is suitable. A human being is made up of bones, skins, blood, flesh, needs air and so on. Any one of these give you problem or no longer functioning, the person is close to collapse. Thus, human being is not stand alone.
If you observe all the things around you, nothing exists without combination. Thus, they do not actually exist, they exist because of combination.
Interesting explanation. I am now interested to know about non attachment, will take my time to explore it.
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Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:
If it happened to you many times, I am puzzled why you cannot understand the concept of nothingness and emptiness. In fact, you are very close, just need a little more in-depth thinking.I do not know whether this analogy is suitable. A human being is made up of bones, skins, blood, flesh, needs air and so on. Any one of these give you problem or no longer functioning, the person is close to collapse. Thus, human being is not stand alone.
If you observe all the things around you, nothing exists without combination. Thus, they do not actually exist, they exist because of combination.
Yes because everything is just combinations and aggregations, there is no separate or permanent 'self' entity to be found, just as there is no permanent or separate entity 'weather' to be found. There is no human 'being', there is only a stream of becoming, of sensations, thoughts, manifesting and subsiding in lightning speed - in other words there is only human Becoming (not a static being).
As Toni Packer said:
A somber day, isn't it? Dark, cloudy, cool, moist and windy. Amazing, this whole affair of "the weather!" We call it "weather," but what is it really? Wind. Rain. Clouds slowly parting. Not the words spoken about it, but just this darkening, blowing, pounding, wetting, and then lightening up, blue sky appearing amidst darkness, and sunshine sparkling on wet grasses and leaves. In a little while there'll be frost, snow and ice-covers. And then warming again, melting, oozing water everywhere. On an early spring day the dirt road sparkles with streams of wet silver. So — what is "weather" other than this incessant change of earthly conditions and all the human thoughts, feelings, and undertakings influenced by it? Like and dislike. Depression and elation. Creation and destruction. An ongoing, ever changing stream of happenings abiding nowhere. No entity "weather" to be found except in thinking and talking about it.
Now — is there such an entity as "me," "I," "myself?" Or is it just like the "weather" — an ongoing, ever changing stream of ideas, images, memories, projections, likes and dislikes, creations and destructions, which thought keeps calling "I," "me," "Toni," and thereby solidifying what is evanescent? What am I really, truly, and what do I think and believe I am? Are we interested in exploring this amazing affair of "myself" from moment to moment? Is this, maybe, the essence of retreat work? Exploring ourselves minutely beyond the peace and quiet that we are seeking and maybe finding. Coming upon clarity about this deep sense of separation which we call "me," and "other people," without any need to condemn or overcome.
Most human beings take it totally for granted that I am "me," and that "me" is this body, this mind, this knowledge and sense about myself which so obviously feels separate from other people. The language in which we talk to ourselves and to each other inevitably implies separate "me's," and "you's" all the time. All of us talk "I" and "you" talk, we think it, write it, read it, and dream it with rarely any pause. There is incessant reinforcement of the sense of "I," "me," separate from others. Isolated. Insulated. Not understood. How is one to come upon the truth if separation is taken so much for granted, feels so common sense?
The difficulty is not insurmountable. Wholeness, true being, is here all the time, like the sun behind the clouds. Daylight is here in spite of cloud cover.
Continued in http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/search/label/Toni%20Packer
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Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:
If it happened to you many times, I am puzzled why you cannot understand the concept of nothingness and emptiness. In fact, you are very close, just need a little more in-depth thinking.I do not know whether this analogy is suitable. A human being is made up of bones, skins, blood, flesh, needs air and so on. Any one of these give you problem or no longer functioning, the person is close to collapse. Thus, human being is not stand alone.
If you observe all the things around you, nothing exists without combination. Thus, they do not actually exist, they exist because of combination.
Make senses to me.Mineral water bottle....now empty bottle.....
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Originally posted by likeyou:
Make senses to me.Mineral water bottle....now empty bottle.....
Yeah, you got it.
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Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:
Yeah, you got it.
Thks for sharing the information.Though it is abit hard to digest...:)
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Er i thought Pluto is just a planet?
Why linked to Hell LOL
But ermmm the 8 cold and hot hells is really intriguing
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Originally posted by 2009novice:
Er i thought Pluto is just a planet?
Why linked to Hell LOL
But ermmm the 8 cold and hot hells is really intriguing
Yeah, the 8 cold and hot hells.Hey, last time the haw par villa also hv the hell figurines....you guys remembered that? It was so scary to look at. What type of hell we enter according to the sin. As what the 8 cold and hot hells are.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Actually in Buddhism, there are 8 cold hells and 8 hot hells.
oh.. so is not 18 levels? or where are the 2 levels?pluto i think is taken out by NASA as a planet.. in this galaxy. we oni have 8 planets.. i heard.
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Originally posted by Airry:
oh.. so is not 18 levels? or where are the 2 levels?pluto i think is taken out by NASA as a planet.. in this galaxy. we oni have 8 planets.. i heard.
Last I heard, after debating, they still decided to have pluto as a planet.
Eighteen hells
From Rigpa Wiki
Depiction of the hell realms from a thangka of the Wheel of LifeThe hells (Skt. naraka; Wyl. dmyal ba) constitute one of the realms of the six classes of beings, they are characterized by extremely intense suffering; there are eighteen hells (Skt. aá¹£á¹adaÅ›anaraka):
- the sixteen hells grouped into
- Eight Hot Hells and
- Eight Cold Hells; along with
- the Neighbouring Hells and
- the Ephemeral Hells.
Chökyi Drakpa writes:
- The cause of being born in any of these eighteen hells could be a vast accumulation of harmful actions perpetrated out of desire or delusion. Even so, a single momentary act such as taking life or speaking harsh words to an exceptional being, when carried out with a mind of intense anger, will propel you straight to the hells.[1]
- the sixteen hells grouped into
-
- the sixteen hells grouped into
- Eight Hot Hells and
- Eight Cold Hells; along with
- the Neighbouring Hells and
- the Ephemeral Hells.
Chökyi Drakpa writes:
- The cause of being born in any of these eighteen hells could be a vast accumulation of harmful actions perpetrated out of desire or delusion. Even so, a single momentary act such as taking life or speaking harsh words to an exceptional being, when carried out with a mind of intense anger, will propel you straight to the hells.[1]
Oh...every act by a beings (daily basis) will have an effects on which level (26, 1, 1 hells) a being will need to have their punishment mate out.- Really thanks for your information.
- the sixteen hells grouped into
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Hi AEN, plse teach me (in simplier form) how to contain ones temper? Now I know that whenever one is anger or not happy or very piss off, one will be have an effects on the entry of hell punishment.
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Originally posted by likeyou:
Hi AEN, plse teach me (in simplier form) how to contain ones temper? Now I know that whenever one is anger or not happy or very piss off, one will be have an effects on the entry of hell punishment.
There are many ways to go about dealing with anger.
For me... rather than feed the anger, simply observe anger for what it is. If we become aware of our anger, then we no longer become identified with our mental stories and just see anger for what it is. Just completely accept whatever we experience to be as it is. They will dissolve on their own accord as long as we do not feeding them through our mental stories.
See http://www.springwatercenter.org/teachers/packer/articles/anger/
