Are Arhats selfish as they strive for Nirvana for themelves?
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its really unfair and certainly ignorant for some (my opinion) to say that arhats are selfish and inferior to the way of the Bodhisattva. also to attain arhatship is not easy, as if they are saying arhatship can be attained at a short span of time.
I believe the dhamma as the truth is truly universal, has no distinctions and differentiations whatsoever. its true that striving to be a Buddhahood to save all sentient beings is compassionate and noble, but to say arhats lack compassion and is more concerned for their wellbeing are utter nonsense. if like that, Buddha might as well taught the Bodhisatvva way from the outset isnt it.
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Originally posted by Rooney9:
if one still have self, one will not attained enlightenment. dunno why some people say arhats are selfish in that they only saved themselves and not strive to be a Buddha in order to save all sentient beings.
I am just putting out out a point, not for the sake of argument!
Hope you do not construe this as labelling arhats as selfish, a Arhat is a non returner, once enlightened, that's it. So for the remaining suffering masses, leaves only the Bodhisattva.
For I am the unenlightened, who do I hold to be greater, the thus gone, or the one still with us?
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from a layman or practical point of view.....there should be many ways to reach enlightenment....each has their story to tell...and the outcome of which is the unique sense of happiness or bliss which one knows that no one may know or understand....
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Originally posted by Fcukpap:
it is a world of relativity .... one changes to the change of another as well... religion is ultimately a subjective experience... a passion for compassion
Passion for compassion, nice ring to it!
It is the passion I am worried about! About being right! For example if we have opposing view, if you are right ,then I must be wrong! How dare you say I am wrong!
Also,for some it is a calling, for others it is the opium of the masses.
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each has its points of views...a world of relativity
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Originally posted by Weychin:
I am just putting out out a point, not for the sake of argument!
Hope you do not construe this as labelling arhats as selfish, a Arhat is a non returner, once enlightened, that's it. So for the remaining suffering masses, leaves only the Bodhisattva.
For I am the unenlightened, who do I hold to be greater, the thus gone, or the one still with us?
well the dhamma is still around, people can still strive for enlightenment. so if they attained enlightenment, they are called selfish cos they are not striving for Buddhahood, cos they are leaving innumerable suffering sentient beings behind?
also a bodhisattva still need to practise perfections, it takes many aeons to practise. Once he is ready to be a Buddha, he can transmit the dhamma, but then people need to adhere and follow his teachings. that means in your mind, the Buddha should not teach arhahship and should instead preach the virtues of Buddhahood?
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Originally posted by Fcukpap:
each has its points of views...a world of relativity
Was trying to put across a point! How I did not offend you!
There many who do not allow a middle ground, with "Good" and "Bad" and a line drawn in the middle !
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agree with you ... thats right...some just dun allow the middle ground...they take sides
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My opinion is that you either be an arhat or a Bodhistavva, its a personal choice really. but to say that striving for arhat is selfish is really erroneous. How this statement came about I think is the unenlightened views of the followers. if you are enlightened and see things as they truly are, there would not be such view as this.
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of course. if not where will you have views like arhats are selfish came about?
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Originally posted by Weychin:
What if the Buddha upon his Enlightenment finds that what he realised was too profound for the people to understand, and he did not turn the wheel of Dharma?!
THE BRAHMA'S REQUEST
THE Blessed One having attained Buddhahood while resting under the shepherd's Nigrodha tree on the banks of the river Neranjara, pronounced this solemn utterance:
"How sure his pathway in this wood,
Who follows truth's unchanging call!
How blessed, to be kind and good,
And practice self-restraint in all!
How light, from passion to be free,
And sensual joys to let go by!
And yet his greatest bliss will be
When he has quelled the pride of 'I'."I have recognized the deepest truth, which is sublime and peace-giving' but difficult to understand; for most men move in a sphere of worldly interests and find their delight in worldly desires. The worldling will not understand the doctrine, for to him there is happiness in selfhood only, and the bliss that lies in a complete surrender to truth is unintelligible to him. He will call resignation what to the enlightened mind is the purest joy. He will see annihilation where the perfected one finds immortality. He will regard as death what the conqueror of self knows to be life everlasting. The truth remains hidden from him who is in the bondage of hate and desire. Nirvana remains incomprehensible and mysterious to the vulgar whose minds are beclouded with worldly interests. Should I preach the doctrine and mankind not comprehend it, it would bring me only fatigue and trouble."
Mara, the Evil One, on hearing the words of the Blessed Buddha, approached and said: "Be greeted, thou Holy One. Thou hast attained the highest bliss and it is time for thee to enter into the final Nirvana."
Then Brahma Sahampati descended from the heavens and, having worshiped the Blessed One, said: "Alas! the world must perish, should the Holy One, the Tathagata, decide not to teach the Dharma. Be merciful to those that struggle; have compassion upon the sufferers; pity the creatures who are hopelessly entangled in the snares of sorrow. There are some beings that are almost free from the dust of worldliness. If they hear not the doctrine preached, they will be lost. But if they hear it, they will believe and be saved."
The Blessed One, full of compassion, looked with the eye of a Buddha upon all sentient creatures, and he saw among them beings whose minds were but scarcely covered by the dust of worldliness, who were of good disposition and easy to instruct. He saw some who were conscious of the dangers of lust and wrong doing. And the Blessed One said to Brahma Sahampati: "Wide open be the door of immortality to all who have ears to hear. May they receive the Dharma with faith."
Then the Blessed One turned to Mara, saying: "I shall not pass into the final Nirvana, O Evil One, until there be not only brethren and sisters of an Order, but also lay disciples of both sexes, who shall have become true hearers, wise, well trained, ready and learned, versed in the scriptures, fulfilling all the greater and lesser duties, correct in life, walking according to the precepts-until they, having thus themselves learned the doctrine, shall be able to give information to others concerning it, preach it, make it known, establish it, open it, minutely explain it, and make it clear-until they, when others start vain doctrines, shall be able to vanquish and refute them, and so to spread the wonderworking truth abroad. I shall not die until the pure religion of truth shall have become successful, prosperous, widespread, and popular in all its full extent-until, in a word, it shall have been well proclaimed among men!"
Then Brahma Sahampati understood that the Blessed One had granted his request and would preach the doctrine.
This is a very good article. It reveals quite a fair bit of why our world is the way it is,and what's needed to move into the future. However, I feel it shouldn't be taken too literally, in order to fully understand the Truth and message behind the article.
Rainbow Jigsaw
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personal choices
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Well, I do not know whether my thoughts is correct. If everyone strives to be Bodhisattva, meaning going through rebirth many times. It seems to me is a never ending story.
Your thoughts please.
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Originally posted by Rooney9:
Some said arhats are selfish cos they are striving for Nirvana for themselves. But if they have concept of self, how do they attain Nirvana?
they also said, Theravada is an inferior vehicle as compared to Mahayana, cos striving to be a Buddhahood to save all sentient beings is more noble then saving oneself.
if like that, then why does the Buddha taught the dhamma for 49 years on arhatship?
Imho.. they're just 2 different vehicles to achieve a similar objective. It's a personal choice for 1 to choose which vehicle is suitable for them. The labelling is uncalled for and only seeks to satisfy one's ego.. The impression of nobility is only defined by our clouded mind. Likewise, the impression of "self" you mentioned of arhats is also defined by it.
How is the practise of either Mahayana or Theravada, noble or selfish, when all beings are ultimately responsible for themselves to put the teachings into practice?
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Originally posted by Rainbow Jigsaw:
This is a very good article. It reveals quite a fair bit of why our world is the way it is,and what's needed to move into the future. However, I feel it shouldn't be taken too literally, in order to fully understand the Truth and message behind the article.
Rainbow Jigsaw
Dogmas in believing creator and souls are very hard eradicate, as it provides a relatively easy way out of knowing life and personal accountability.
Happy to know that you concur.
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Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:
Well, I do not know whether my thoughts is correct. If everyone strives to be Bodhisattva, meaning going through rebirth many times. It seems to me is a never ending story.
Your thoughts please.
Aspiration of a Bodhisattva:-
Imagine that countless beings as children borne by you in the past lives, and with the clarity of mind, you can see that they are suffering for aeons and will continue to suffer, and will continue to suffer for aeons more.
Your children are crying, how can you not but reach out to help them! If you have children in this life, they will still be you children however old they are, your loving kindness towards them will still be there!
Now as a parent do you see your suffering, or their suffering?
Snp 1.8PTS: Sn 143-152Karaniya Metta Sutta: The Buddha's Words on Loving-Kindnesstranslated from the Pali bythe Amaravati SanghaThis sutta also appears at Khp 9.This is what should be done By one who is skilled in goodness, And who knows the path of peace: Let them be able and upright, Straightforward and gentle in speech, Humble and not conceited, Contented and easily satisfied, Unburdened with duties and frugal in their ways. Peaceful and calm and wise and skillful, Not proud or demanding in nature. Let them not do the slightest thing That the wise would later reprove. Wishing: In gladness and in safety, May all beings be at ease. Whatever living beings there may be; Whether they are weak or strong, omitting none, The great or the mighty, medium, short or small, The seen and the unseen, Those living near and far away, Those born and to-be-born — May all beings be at ease! Let none deceive another, Or despise any being in any state. Let none through anger or ill-will Wish harm upon another. Even as a mother protects with her life Her child, her only child, So with a boundless heart Should one cherish all living beings; Radiating kindness over the entire world: Spreading upwards to the skies, And downwards to the depths; Outwards and unbounded, Freed from hatred and ill-will. Whether standing or walking, seated or lying down Free from drowsiness, One should sustain this recollection. This is said to be the sublime abiding. By not holding to fixed views, The pure-hearted one, having clarity of vision, Being freed from all sense desires, Is not born again into this world. -
Originally posted by Weychin:
Dogmas in believing creator and souls are very hard eradicate, as it provides a relatively easy way out of knowing life and personal accountability.
Happy to know that you concur.
Belief in self-growth and belief in existence of Creator and higher spiritual beings do not need to be mutually exclusive. Higher beings definitely exist, but their true intentions (which have been misinterpreted by Man) are not for people to worship them as gods, but to help/guide people to believe in their inner potential to be just like them. Anyway, I shall not say more, as our lifeplan and hence spiritual experiences are very different. :)Whatever one's beliefs are, the key thing should be to lead a genuine and truthful life, to do good and be good, not cause harm to others in words or in deeds, to make one feel better or superior. Else what good is a belief system, and what enlightenment is one gaining?
Rainbow Jigsaw of Life
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Originally posted by Rainbow Jigsaw:
Belief in self-growth and belief in existence of Creator and higher spiritual beings do not need to be mutually exclusive. Higher beings definitely exist, but their true intentions (which have been misinterpreted by Man) are not for people to worship them as gods, but to help/guide people to believe in their inner potential to be just like them. Anyway, I shall not say more, as our lifeplan and hence spiritual experiences are very different. :)Whatever one's beliefs are, the key thing should be to lead a genuine and truthful life, to do good and be good, not cause harm to others in words or in deeds, to make one feel better or superior. Else what good is a belief system?
Rainbow Jigsaw of Life
Thank you for patience and for being to understand our beliefs and path and aspirations are different.
Here is my gift or rather Atisha's gift to you :-
Hope it can stand you in good stead!
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About Buddhism
The greatest achievement is selflessness.
The greatest worth is self-mastery.
The greatest quality is seeking to serve others.
The greatest precept is continual awareness.
The greatest medicine is the emptiness of everything.
The greatest action is not conforming with the worlds ways.
The greatest magic is transmuting the passions.
The greatest generosity is non-attachment.
The greatest goodness is a peaceful mind.
The greatest patience is humility.
The greatest effort is not concerned with results.
The greatest meditation is a mind that lets go.
The greatest wisdom is seeing through appearances.Atisha (11th century Tibetan Buddhist master)
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Originally posted by Rainbow Jigsaw:
Belief in self-growth and belief in existence of Creator and higher spiritual beings do not need to be mutually exclusive. Higher beings definitely exist, but their true intentions (which have been misinterpreted by Man) are not for people to worship them as gods, but to help/guide people to believe in their inner potential to be just like them. Anyway, I shall not say more, as our lifeplan and hence spiritual experiences are very different. :)Whatever one's beliefs are, the key thing should be to lead a genuine and truthful life, to do good and be good, not cause harm to others in words or in deeds, to make one feel better or superior. Else what good is a belief system?
Rainbow Jigsaw of Life
Don't mind if I say this, your belief looks like a "rojak" belief, mixing
Chrisitianity (believe in Creator) and Buddhism (believe in Karma). Very confusing. -
Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:
Don't mind if I say this, your belief looks like a "rojak" belief, mixing
Chrisitianity (believe in Creator) and Buddhism (believe in Karma). Very confusing.
Belief in Creator and Higher Beings doesn't belong to any 1 religion/belief system. Similarly, Belief in karma doesn't belong to any 1 religion/belief system. When one has experienced without prejudice, understandings become clearer. :)If something is truly part of the Truth of Life, and one has experienced it personally, whether in current life or previous lives, and not simply believe because of hearsay, written words or learnt words, it's no longer just pure belief and continuing the hearsay, but speaking the Truth. Proof is pointless unless one's intention is just to continue hearsay. :)
In any case, as long as one's belief system helps one to be a genuinely better person, and not condemn others' beliefs, then one can stay with one's belief system. Everyone's at different stages and paths of the learning journey of Life. Buddhism would be more appropriate for your learning journey in this life.
Rainbow Jigsaw of Life
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Originally posted by Rainbow Jigsaw:
Belief in Creator doesn't belong to any 1 religion/belief system. Similarly, Belief in karma doesn't belong to any 1 religion/belief system. When one has experienced without prejudice, understandings become clearer. :)In any case, as long as one's belief system helps one to be a genuinely better person, and not condemn others' beliefs, then one can stay with the belief system. Buddhism would be more suitable for you in this life.
Rainbow Jigsaw of Life
I don't think Dawnfirstlight means to condemn you or your beliefs, however the contradiction of ascended masters bringing the departed to a permanent heaven of creator where you can find your relatives(this sounds christian like ). It is a one way trip.
Buddhism is about accountability, karma, you reap what you sow. Thus what you do each lifetime will lead to next and next, a continuous cycle.
You may help by distinguishing the differences between your belief and christianity, and also the how karma works in your belief.
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No.. they are not selfish.. they strive to walk the noble path..
Infact arhats are also compassionate