Originally posted by Almond Cookies:
A few years ago in a park.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Great. Your case is very similar to mine. My first PCE was also with a tree... lol. I was sixteen then, about five years ago.
Oh.
Which Path Should I Choose?
I am often asked what practice suits them. Theravada, Advaita, Zen, Tibetan, self-inquiry, direct path, gradual path, direct contemplation, vipassana, it's all so confusing. How do they know which path to take?
My answer is, basically, discern for yourself (or if you meet a master or teacher who can advise you that'll be helpful too).
For me, I chose to go through the path to realize I AM... as I am influenced by Advaita, Zen, etc. If you are influenced by Zen, Advaita, etc, I will recommend self-inquiry to you. But self-inquiry is not suitable for all and sundry: it depends on the person's inclinations.
If you are strictly Theravada you might not be interested. However Kenneth Folk is an exception and is a mix of various traditions: Theravada, Zen, Advaita, Tibetan, etc.
Direct path, self inquiry, all feels right to me... as in it resonates with me. Its more interesting than entering many many stages of nanas and jhanas, that's why I practiced it - the path that stresses on the Immediate truth rather than gradual development. After self-realization I switched to direct contemplation on non-dual and anatta (e.g. Bahiya Sutta style contemplation).
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I am often asked what practice suits them. Theravada, Advaita, Zen, Tibetan, self-inquiry, direct path, gradual path, direct contemplation, vipassana, it's all so confusing. How do they know which path to take?
My answer is, basically, discern for yourself (or if you meet a master or teacher who can advise you that'll be helpful too).
For me, I chose to go through the path to realize I AM... as I am influenced by Advaita, Zen, etc. If you are influenced by Zen, Advaita, etc, I will recommend self-inquiry to you. But self-inquiry is not suitable for all and sundry: it depends on the person's inclinations.
If you are strictly Theravada you might not be interested. However Kenneth Folk is an exception and is a mix of various traditions: Theravada, Zen, Advaita, Tibetan, etc.
Direct path, self inquiry, all feels right to me... as in it resonates with me. Its more interesting than entering many many stages of nanas and jhanas, that's why i practiced it - the path that stresses on the Immediate truth rather than gradual development. After self-realization I switched to direct contemplation on non-dual and anatta (e.g. Bahiya Sutta style contemplation).
I am deeply attracted to the koan sound of one hand clap.
So maybe zen school.
Message by AEN
To seeker: sorry no advertising of Dhammakaya materials are allowed in this forum. See our rules and regulations.
As I wrote in reply to your other post,
Sorry, this forum does not recognise the organisation of Wat Dhammakaya and its teachings.
Dhammakaya teaches visualisation and mistaken certain accomplishment of their visualization with true realization and liberation.
Scenery delighting scenery.
Music enjoying music.
I am not a spiritual being having a human experience.
But the universe experiencing itself as a human being.
...........
Finger types, sound hears.
Finger stops typing, sound stops hearing.
An intrically interconnected and impersonal process is what the universe is.
The Non-contingent Joy Not Born Out of Stimulus
Participant 1: How would you convince someone about the visible fruits of the Buddhist practice here and now?
Me: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.02.0.than.html
Participant 1: Hmm I'm thinking of something more relevant to a westerner lol, they would be sceptical about super powers etc. Furthermore, how to convince a westerner that it is possible to transcend suffering? Where does suffering come from?
Me: Supernatural powers are only a small part of the visible fruits mentioned in the sutta
Participant 1: Ya but I don't want to give him a sutta to read.
Me: You can summarise the sutta. Suffering arises due to ignorance, attachments and cravings.
Participant 1: From this notion of a self right? From a subject-object dichotomy.
Me: Yes but not just subject-object dichotomy. Various forms of attachment to self.
Participant 1: Such as?
Me: Duality is part of the sense of self. It is removed in Thusness Stage 4. At Thusness Stage 5 realization of Anatta, the 'I' agent is gone. But the 'mine' attachment lingers. There are many degrees of attachment to 'I'.
Participant 1: Hmm but, for westerners who enjoy sense pleasures, how would you convince them?
Me: Every pleasure deriving from sensual stimulus is impermanent and thus ultimately unsatisfactory. However there is a joy that does not depend on the senses. It does not come from sensory stimulus. It does fade with the absence of sensory stimulus. In fact, speaking from experience, you can experience deep joy and equanimity even if your body is experiencing very unpleasant sensations. By tranquilising bodily and mental formations, giving rise to bliss and joy, centering the mind in samadhi, one is able to overcome all bodily hindrances and experience deep clarity, joy and equanimity even in the midst of unpleasantness. You will not experience aversion to life, and a non-contingent joy manifests. A non-contingent perfection and purity lies right there even in the midst of pleasant/unpleasant sensations.
Joy that arise non-contingent on senses is the joy arising from abandonment. When you abandon the body, the mind, and the self, joy naturally arises. This can happen via two ways. Either via opening, though that is more for insight practitioners after certain realization like anatta, or it is via absorption like the practice of jhanas. When you practice insight meditation in daily life, you experience joy and delight even in ordinary seeing and hearing in mundane activities.
But it is not joy born out of sensory stimulus. For if that were the case, the joy would be contingent and unsatisfactory. Rather, it is the joy arising when you drop your self and simply immerse in direct experience.
Participant 1: Why are we reborn after realizing not-self?
Me: We are reborn due to latent tendencies. When you overcome sensual attachments, cravings and aversions, you no longer have the cause for rebirth in the sensual realms. That is the anagami level. If you overcome even subtle cravings for jhanic existence, then you have destroyed the cause of birth even in these subtler realms.
Just had a conversation with Thusness yesterday and he allowed me to post it in my e-book after he helped me edited a little.
The Magic of Empty Luminosity
Thusness: the songs (in luminousemptiness.blogspot.com) are truly enlightening.
Thusness: When we see the mind’s nature, there is nothing to hold. As there is nothing unchanging to ground. Phenomena is itself mind, so how is ‘mind’ unchanging? The purpose of the realization is to realize that all is mind.
Me: When I was reading this article and his commentaries “Reflections on Niguma - Vajra Verses of Self-Liberating Mahamudra – Reflections” ( http://luminousemptiness.blogspot.com/2008/11/niguma-vajra-verses-of-self-liberating.html ) … and it suddenly clicked, and I was amazed at how the thoughts are magical appearances without location, origin and destination, or arising and ceasing, or abidance…
Thusness: from sound, taste to phenomena
Me: And everything… thoughts and everything else are just like unreal, though vivid. Yeah, it’s like… all are just mind’s illusions, and mind is located nowhere.
Thusness: No, all is mind, not mind’s illusion.
Me: Sorry yeah that’s what I meant… mind is itself the appearance which are like illusions.
Thusness: The purpose of no-mind is to realize that all is mind so that we can experience mind directly, otherwise how is sound, taste, and all phenomena, mind? Therefore when we see thoughts and observe its whereabout, its origination, we see it all has the same nature… we then realize, it is mind. The five aggregates all share the same taste.
Me: Same nature = emptiness?
Thusness: Yeah.
Me: I see. Yeah… it is mind, cos they are all luminous appearances without an iota of objective reality.
Thusness: Behind and in front, in and out… we see nothing, find nothing, and locate nothing… yet vividly present, luminous and clear… always only empty phenomena. All is ever so magical and releasing. J When we see substantiality in Awareness, what is seen is illusion. For there is nothing graspable, locatable, findable. How is ‘unchangingness’ possible? Therefore the quintessence is to realize the empty nature of whatever arises and rest upon nothing. Mind uncontrieved is the true essence of practice.
Me: Yeah, nothing whatsoever, even Awareness can be found… and on the 2nd blog post I read “Reflections on Niguma - Vajra Verses of Self-Liberating Mahamudra – Reflections” ( http://luminousemptiness.blogspot.com/2008/11/niguma-vajra-verses-of-self-liberating.html ), and just really read it through (with some investigation and contemplation), I didn’t really spent too much time trying to figure it out… I read carefully, investigated the origin, place of abidance, and destination of thoughts, and it just occurred to me that thought is a magical appearance. Then, I spent the next few days reading all his blog posts… all the way back to late 2007. I haven’t read his 2004-early 2007 entries. I think all his stuff are great.
Thusness: Yes. What you have not realized in the past is ‘magical’.
Me: Yeah, out of nowhere, in nowhere, going nowhere, yet vivid and apparently real.
Thusness: The key is in dwelling in the “magic” of the natural state J
Me: I see…
Thusness: Then there will be true wonder as you always ‘wrote’ :P lol
Me: What do you mean?
Thusness: You have been writing about ‘wonder and presence and beautiful’ about manifestation. What is the difference with what you realized?
Me: Previously, it was about the wonder, presence, and beauty of vivid presence and awareness as transience. Now, it is about wonder about the magical nature of presence as vivid and empty.
Thusness: It means how marvellous is the functioning… as manifesting, ‘real’, yet illusory. Empty luminosity.
Me: Yeah.
Thusness: Now when anger arise, it is a magical display. It is this ‘magic’ that is releasing. If you cannot understand, then there will be staying and attachment. There is nothing dull in releasing.
Me: I see…
Thusness: Describe how you feel about this realization?
Me: When I saw that… I was amazed, marvelled, and felt very blissful… but then soon later a deep compassion arose, cos someone burnt an ant with his lighter... and I was like, so the universe is unreal and sentient beings are a magical appearance... yet compassion has to arise... without a subject or object... it’s part of the magical display.
Thusness: No. You should not say it is ‘unreal yet’.
Me: It’s not unreal, as it is clearly and vividly manifesting, yet not really out there.
Thusness: When you say it is not really out there, it is always not true… then, you are subsuming all as One. It is not really out there, yet nothing in here. It is just the nature. You do not subsume anything into One.
Me: Yes… there is nothing in here as well. There is always only a display of magical luminous apparition… there is nothing out there, as in there is no core to things, apart from the mere appearance.
Thusness: Yes. When we talk about the magical display, it is about the ‘functioning’, it is not about subsuming anything.
Me: I see… Yeah it’s not about subsuming, it’s more about… thoughts and all sensory experiences cannot be found anywhere, cannot be located in anywhere, yet amazingly ‘it’ appears…
Thusness: Yes… only the nature and essence of whatever arises. Not to collapse all into this mind and all external phenomena as appearances. That would be wrong understanding.
Me: Hmm… but Mahamudra talks about that right?
Thusness:
Not exactly sure.
Me: I mean they talk about all as mind. I think it’s ok to say all is mind, except it is not One Mind, not a cosmic mind, but an individual mindstream.
Thusness: Yes.
Me: I think we can exchange ‘mind’ with ‘experience’… all are mere luminous experience/apparition.
Thusness: Yes. There is only experience.
Me: I see… oh by the way, I just suddenly remembered something Namdrol said about realizing emptiness, though I can’t remember exactly what it was that he said, I just found the quote:
At
base, the main fetter of self-grasping is predicated upon naive reification of
existence and non-existence. Dependent origination is what allows us to see into
the non-arising nature of dependently originated phenomena, i.e. the self-nature
of our aggregates. Thus, right view is the direct seeing, in meditative
equipoise, of this this non-arising nature of all phenomena. As such, it is not
a "view" in the sense that is something we hold as concept, it is rather a
wisdom which "flows" into our post-equipoise and causes us to truly perceive the
world in the following way in Nagarjuna's Bodhicittavivarana:
"Form is
similar to a foam,
Feeling is like water bubbles,
Ideation is equivalent
with a mirage,
Formations are similar with a banana tree,
Consciousness is
like an illusion."
...
"In other words, right view is the
beginning of the noble path. It is certainly the case that dependent origination
is "correct view"; when one analyzes a bit deeper, one discovers that in the
case "view" means being free from views. The teaching of dependent origination
is what permits this freedom f
views. The teaching of dependent origination
is what permits this freedom from views."
Thusness: The real purpose is the ‘freedom’ from ‘inherent’ view and then releases itself from any forming of ‘views’ so that the magic of functioning can be realized and directly experienced. However during the journey, there is always attachment here and there… therefore the ‘emptying of emptiness’. We go through step by step in dissolving the knot of ‘inherency’ till we see that ‘mind’ is the full embodiment of the immediate marvelous activity. Just eating, seeing, sensing, tasting, thinking...simply sound, thoughts, scenery and scents. Nothing within and without, only this spontaneous miraculous functioning, an interplay of dharma. When we entertain conceptual knowledge and seek unchanging Awareness or Self, the marvelous ‘interconnectedness’ of functioning is being misunderstood as ‘something’ being transformed into ‘something’ as if ‘winter’ has been transformed into ‘spring’.
It is also important to take note not to ascribe the functioning to a ‘higher’ power. That is because of ‘a thought of personality’ that creates the confusion. If there is no attachment to a self, identity, personality, then the functioning itself is marvellous without reification, or any form of personification.
Also, to truly get into this ‘magic’ of functioning, the doing away of the ‘how’ is also important. It arises when we penetrate and look deeply the where-about of anything. Just magical appearances.
Me: Yeah… Now, I realize my practice sort of switched a lot into penetrating and looking deeply into the non locality of everything… it’s like what Buddha taught in Phena Sutta, “That's the way it goes: it's a magic trick, an idiot's babbling. It's said to be a murderer.[1] No substance here is found. Thus a monk, persistence aroused, should view the aggregates by day & by night, mindful, alert; should discard all fetters; should make himself his own refuge; should live as if his head were on fire — in hopes of the state with no falling away.”
Thusness: Yes, until the mind becomes uncontrived and groundless. If we stay on with the Self, unchanging awareness, we will not be able to realize the essence in the teachings of emptiness. The purpose is not to get attached to the ‘non-inherent’ view either.
Me: Yeah, it’s like what Namdrol said,
As
such, it is not a "view" in the sense that is something we hold as concept, it
is rather a wisdom which "flows" into our post-equipoise and causes us to truly
perceive the world in the following way in Nagarjuna's
Bodhicittavivarana:
"Form is similar to a foam,
Feeling is like water
bubbles,
Ideation is equivalent with a mirage,
Formations are similar with
a banana tree,
Consciousness is like an illusion."
Thusness: It is to completely dissolve all ‘inherent’ view so that we can realize and experience directly, the magic of empty luminosity.
The Magic of Luminous Emptiness