how quick can awakening be attained?
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i hope anyone more knowledgeable(in experiencial sense) can help me with the question about heroic effort in attaining ( through disciplined meditation practice - specifically in my point-of-view,the practice of sustained bare attention,or continuous 'choiceless' - i.e not limited to any specific object - mindfulness) enlightenment within the shortest period of time.
i m just begining to intuit that the synergystic factors of intensity + continuity may produce remarkable results in one's path as opposed to following the less straining road of taking things easy(which everyone of us,if we are honest,to large or small degree are guilty of).
in my view,a few lifetimes of practice(and therefore suffering)can be reduced to one(or two) ,by taking this route.the only (immediate)risk,as far as i can see now,
is that of breakdown;
and that really depends on the individual's karma(character and body-mind's strength),one may experience nervous breakdown ,mental illness or perhaps something worse!
this presupposes that the individual wants enlightenment so badly that what happens to the body-mind is of little care to him.after all,they're impermanent,and such bodhicitta(aspiration for awakening),when carries to other lifetimes,(supposing that through such intense effort,one damages the body and nervous system),may bring better and healthier 'vehicle' for one's continuous practice.
but i think the result is worth the risk thousands (to put mildly)of time!
the problem is it's hard to estimate one karmic strength and how much is the limit of one's effort(many taught that effort can only take us to a limit,after that "grace takes over").therefore,why not go all the way with everything one had?
dharma dan (daniel ingram) - www.interactivebuddha.com - claims that such intenseful effort can bear the fruits quickly.
for thusness/passerby : what's your view on this(specifically,how far can sustained ,intense mindfulness practice goes?until which stage?generally,what other types of 'effortful' meditative practice do you recommend?)?
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Interesting question. Thusness is now in Australia, looking forward to his reply too when he comes back/see this post :)
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Thusness seems quite busy at the moment so I will just offer my own views and see what other forummers can comment.
Effort, intensity and continuity is damn important in the spiritual path. There is no way a person can be fully 'enlightened' automatically and spontaneously before years (according to Thusness, full awakening often takes decades, while an initial awakening can come in a few years) of practice unless you are some great masters found in the ancient stories. Even those who come to a spontaneous awakening often have gone a long way. They have already done much investigation and inquiring into truth themselves, even though they may not want to call it 'practice' or whatever.
Although the nature of reality is already always so, and you cannot 'become more IT', but there is a difference between perceiving the nature of reality as it is and not being able to perceive it.
For example, for most people, they are having erroneous beliefs and framework of viewing self and the world dualistically and inherently, in terms of being a separate self experiencing a separate world, in terms of subject and object, in terms of entities. These false conceptual framework and views obscures a clear view of their fundamental nature just like clouds obscure the sky and the sun. It is in fact not the clouds that obscure the sky, but the identification with a particular cloud/perspective.
Whether you are practicing Vipassana, or Self-Inquiry, or any insight paths... you want to realise the nature of reality as it is and fundamentally deconstruct all conceptual frameworks. You want to observe reality as it is, not the way you think it is.
This requires an intensity, a continuity, a strong effort, and a strong desire to know the TRUTH of your being. To know the truth of reality. This means not giving in to any concepts and ideas of reality, but to investigate and dissolve all unexamined beliefs and get a clear understanding/experience of the nature of reality.
If no effort is made, the beliefs and ignorant framework in which we view reality will surely continue unexamined and be the predominant way in which we view reality, and cause all kinds of sufferings. There will only be bondage.
So I do not at all believe in the 'there is no need for you to do anything' kind of teaching. To me that is bullshit. Just because there is no 'you' to do anything, doesn't mean investigation, practice, etc, cannot be done. Just because there is no 'you' doesn't mean actions can't be done, sounds can't be heard, etc. The practice however, is not about reaching and sustaining deeper meditation samadhi states (that would be shamatha concentration practice that leads to jhanas but not enlightenment, though it may serve as support for insight practices), but about seeing and deconstructing any remaining mental obscurations, or blinding mental constructs by having clear insight of reality as it is.
I recommend the article by Daniel Ingram, Why The Notion that You Cannot Become What You Already Are is Such Bullshit
Also, as regards to when 'mindfulness' will be deemed as unnecessary, it will only be deemed unnecessary when all dualistic and inherent views are fully deconstructed by insight.
When there is total insight that the luminous and empty nature already always is and is fully manifested, spontaneously perfected in all appearances, then there is automatically self-liberation without effort. Everything is perceived in its true nature, and self-liberates upon contact, without leaving a trace. There is no need to maintain a disassociated witness nor remind oneself of non-duality, there is just everything perceived as it is and self-liberating. This is only possible at the 'last stage'.
At this level there is no need, no effort to maintain anything. As Thusness said before, if you make even a slight effort to maintain or remind yourself of non-duality, you are only at the beginning stages of non-dual/the stage of Lesser One Taste.
At the later stages there is no effort at all. Then comes the stage of non-meditation and effortless self-liberation.
This is discussed in the Mahamudra Four Yogas. It is also corresponded to the Bodhisattva 10 Bhumis in the following way:
Lesser One-Pointedness: Path of Accumulation (pre-bhumi)
Medium One-Pointedness: Heat and Peak of Juncture (pre-bhumi)
Greater One-Pointedness: Forbearance and Supreme Juncture (still pre-bhumi)Lesser Simplicity: First bhumi
Medium Simplicity: Second through Fifth
Greater Simplicity: Sixth bhumiLesser One-Taste: Seventh bhumi
Medium One-Taste: Eighth bhumi
Greater One-Taste: Ninth bhumi (to immediate attainment of Tenth)Lesser Non-Meditation: Tenth bhumi
Medium Non-Meditation: End of Tenth
Greater Non-Meditation: Buddhahood -
just a personal few cents worth :)
i have personally also considered questions similar to these which will usually more often lead on to questions like 'will i ever be enlightened', 'what must be done', and recently as im reading Daniel Ingram's (such coincidence or?) book the question of 'which stage am i at now' tends to appear more often.
while i must admit such kinds of questions seems very appealing and will easily seduce us into a kind of search, dwelling in the content to find an answer.
mindfulness practice (noting practice) is beneficial as it has helped pull me out of the content of these thoughts time and again, and directing the attention towards the noting of sequence of sensations that comes together with the thought.
as for how far can i get? i guess i'll know once the line is crossed, so meantime the best thing to do is to keep on noting.
as for going all out within this lifetime, i do get a feel of extreme zest bordering on renunciation from the way u have describe, correct me if im wrong. maybe i can recommend my personal favourite book, A Path with Heart by Jack Kornfield. i was lucky to chance upon this book when i first started practicing a few years ago.
hope these few cents of comments are relevant, cheers :)
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test
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now it's working :-)
hi aen,
many thanks for your insightful comment.
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you said
" Also, as regards to when 'mindfulness' will be deemed as unnecessary, it will only be deemed unnecessary when all dualistic and inherent views are fully deconstructed by insight.
When there is total insight that the luminous and empty nature already always is and is fully manifested, spontaneously perfected in all appearances, then there is automatically self-liberation without effort. Everything is perceived in its true nature, and self-liberates upon contact, without leaving a trace. There is no need to maintain a disassociated witness nor remind oneself of non-duality, there is just everything perceived as it is and self-liberating. This is only possible at the 'last stage'. "
this also has been my suspicion for quite some time,that is, "detach attention" i.e mindfulness is gonna needed until the end of path,or at least the very last stage.
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" Although the nature of reality is already always so, and you cannot 'become more IT', but there is a difference between perceiving the nature of reality as it is and not being able to perceive it. "
" Whether you are practicing Vipassana, or Self-Inquiry, or any insight paths... you want to realise the nature of reality as it is and fundamentally deconstruct all conceptual frameworks. You want to observe reality as it is, not the way you think it is. "
agree.and the reason im attracted to mindfulness practice is bcause it leaves the mind and all it's conceptual knowledge out and simply observe/perceive as it is.enlightenment is not a conceptual undestanding(and neither is it experiencial,in the sense experience comes and goes)...........................................................
hey geis,
" the question of 'which stage am i at now' tends to appear more often "
this has been my main frustration for a long time :-(
im not really a hardcore believer at any 'real stages',as the map is not the territory,my concern/question has been that if im still not enlightened now,then what are the obstructions taht still exists and how am i going to deal with them.it is this obstacles,imo,that constitutes the 'stages paradigm'
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this also has been my suspicion for quite some time,that is, "detach attention" i.e mindfulness is gonna needed until the end of path,or at least the very last stage.
Yes, detached attention is necessary, but also when we say 'detach' it doesn't necessarily mean a sense of a witness subject detached from objects. But even that sense of duality is unavoidable according to Thusness, until non-dual insights, so at the beginning it is unavoidable to observe as if there is a separate observer.
When one realise non-duality, or the third path/Anagami, one's path becomes increasingly effortless and natural as one's insight into Anatta and Non-Duality as 'Always and Already So' deepens, thus one's practice moves from ‘efforting’ to natural luminosity and spontaneity, and one begins to see the benefits of practice and the nature of reality even in the midst of daily actions and activities in all sensate reality. Even at the Anagami level however, it is sometimes possible to lose sight of non-duality occasionally when one have unpleasant experiences, and thus some 'mindfulness' is still necessary in the sense of reminding oneself of the nondual reality. However it is no longer a mindfulness divided into a witness and a witnessed, in fact no focusing is necessary, there is only allowing the mirror bright clarity to shine with its natural radiance fully present already as all sensations. Rather than trying to focus and make awareness present, the more the separate-self sense is seen through and dropped, the more clearly it is seen that all sensations are already self-luminous or 'aware as/where they are'.
So Thusness wrote:
Division of subject and object is merely an assumption.
Thus someone giving up and something to be given up is an illusion.
When self becomes more and more transparent,
Likewise phenomena become more and more luminous.
In thorough transparency all happening are pristinely and vividly clear.
Obviousness throughout, aliveness everywhere!and..
There is no lack of clarity in whatever that is manifesting, simply forgo the self and be fully participating.
As Thusness said to djhampa previously: Direct experience does not imply consciousness being detached from whatever arises. Experiences are "direct" because the common misunderstanding of an agent that can be attached or detached from whatever arises is thoroughly seen through; therefore nothing to divide to begin with, thus, direct.
I also wrote based to djhampa on what Thusness said:
In short: there is no false self nor true self, there is only 5 aggregates.
Do not think that that there is a problem in the five aggregates. There is no problem with the aggregates, the 'problem' lies only in the illusion that there is a self. The 5 aggregates when experienced without the agent (watcher, thinker, doer, etc) is a completely new dimension. They are the Buddha Nature. (see next page for references)
However, when experienced with a sense/illusion of self, whatever arises (all the aggregates and 18 dhatus) appears to be problematic. In truth there are no problems whatsoever, only the wrong understanding that self exist.
It should be noted furthermore, that even while the sense of self is present, there is still in truth no-self/perceiver apart from perceived. No-self is a dharma seal, an ever-present nature of reality.
On the most direct path, there is no one to let go and no-thing to be let go of and hence no 'how to let go'. Reality is 'letting go' at all moments. There is only what arises and subsides (self-liberates) every moment according to conditions, luminous-empty phenomena roll on with no one at the center that can seek nor distant himself (since there is no 'self') from the self-knowing transience.
However if we are unable to arise this insight and with the tendencies still strong, then we have no choice but resort to the gradual path of practice. Resorting to watching the arising and ceasing of the 5 aggregates as if there is a separate watcher but with the right view that there is no self apart from the aggregates. By practicing this way, insight into Anatta can still arise eventually.
But if the path consists of practice without the right view, almost without fail it will result in Advaita sort of experience.
p.s. for a long and concise description of the different 'levels' of the path (from witnessing, to transmutation and self-liberation, and more), you can refer to http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/search/label/John%20Welwood
Before enlightenment, mindfulness is important. In Vipassana context, mindfulness means bare attention + reminding oneself of the 3 dharma seals. As Thusness told me before, mindfulness means reminding and directly experiencing the 3 dharma seals in one's experience. We often forget that.
It is not just direct experience, because one who has direct experience of the Eternal Witness or I AM may not be mindful of the 3 dharma seals. The dharma seals has to be factored in as part of the investigation in Vipassana to be 'right mindfulness'.
agree.and the reason im attracted to mindfulness practice is bcause it leaves the mind and all it's conceptual knowledge out and simply observe/perceive as it is.enlightenment is not a conceptual undestanding(and neither is it experiencial,in the sense experience comes and goes)Enlightenment is not a conceptual understanding, but an experiential awakening. There is direct realisation of what reality is, what it's nature and essence is, and that is seen from one's experience in the most direct sense - without superimposition of concepts and mental constructs. It is simply sensate reality awakening to its true nature.
If as Thusness said, there is only 5 skandhas or 18 dhatus, and that alone is Buddha-nature, you may wonder 'who is it then who awakens?'
As Daniel Ingram said:
So who is it that awakens? It is all of this transience which awakens, though for a more mystical, thorough and seemingly ridiculous answer take a look at"No-self vs True Self" in Part III.
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The very question that is being posed is a stance whereby one is unconsciously goa-oriented. It is simply not going to happen.
When one meditates with no goals, with no objectives and wondering if it is rite/wrong or ... the mind is playing games and a game that would wear one out.
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Originally posted by Fugazzi:
The very question that is being posed is a stance whereby one is unconsciously goa-oriented. It is simply not going to happen.
When one meditates with no goals, with no objectives and wondering if it is rite/wrong or ... the mind is playing games and a game that would wear one out.
There is no problem with goal, if the goal is directed to reality itself - i.e. a strong desire and intention to know the truth of being/reality as it is.
This strong desire/goal will stop all concepts and grasping and lead to a direct observation of reality as it is.
I have personally found this to be very important in practice, without which results and insights simply will not show up.
1 meditation session with an intense desire to know the truth is better than a hundred sitting with no goal, intention, and desire to know the truth.
As Daniel Ingram puts it:
17. A Clear GoalTuesday, March 20, 2007Since this whole book is clearly goal-oriented, I thought that it would be appropriate to add a few guidelines about formulating specific goals and working towards mastery that can help reduce the problems that poorly conceived goals can cause. Goals tend to involve a heavy future component. The trick is to add a component that relates to the Here and Now as well.For instance, one could wish to become enlightened. This is a purely future-oriented goal. One could also wish to understand the true nature of the sensations that make up one’s world so clearly that one becomes enlightened. This adds a present component and thus makes the whole thing much more reasonable and workable. One could simply wish to deeply understand the true nature of the sensations that make up one’s world as they arise in that practice session or during that day. This is a very immediate and present-oriented goal, and a very fine one indeed. It is also method-oriented rather than result-oriented. This is the mark of a good goal.Similarly, one could try to be kind, honest or generous that day, try to appreciate interdependence that day, or try to stay really concentrated on some object for that practice session. These present and method-oriented goals are the foundation upon which great practice is based. Purely future-oriented goals are at best mostly worthless and at worst very dangerous. -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
There is no problem with goal, if the goal is directed to reality itself - i.e. a strong desire and intention to know the truth of being/reality as it is.
This strong desire/goal will stop all concepts and grasping and lead to a direct observation of reality as it is.
I have personally found this to be very important in practice, without which results and insights simply will not show up.
1 meditation session with an intense desire to know the truth is better than a hundred sitting with no goal, intention, and desire to know the truth.
As Daniel Ingram puts it:
17. A Clear GoalTuesday, March 20, 2007Since this whole book is clearly goal-oriented, I thought that it would be appropriate to add a few guidelines about formulating specific goals and working towards mastery that can help reduce the problems that poorly conceived goals can cause. Goals tend to involve a heavy future component. The trick is to add a component that relates to the Here and Now as well.For instance, one could wish to become enlightened. This is a purely future-oriented goal. One could also wish to understand the true nature of the sensations that make up one’s world so clearly that one becomes enlightened. This adds a present component and thus makes the whole thing much more reasonable and workable. One could simply wish to deeply understand the true nature of the sensations that make up one’s world as they arise in that practice session or during that day. This is a very immediate and present-oriented goal, and a very fine one indeed. It is also method-oriented rather than result-oriented. This is the mark of a good goal.Similarly, one could try to be kind, honest or generous that day, try to appreciate interdependence that day, or try to stay really concentrated on some object for that practice session. These present and method-oriented goals are the foundation upon which great practice is based. Purely future-oriented goals are at best mostly worthless and at worst very dangerous.
I like the above excerpt. It is insightful. In Buddhism we talk about the Middle Path. So present and method-oriented goals and future goals are all necessary for each of us to achieve final and perfect enlightenment.Remember, interdependent origination? =)
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" 1 meditation session with an intense desire to know the truth is better than a hundred sitting with no goal, intention, and desire to know the truth. "
" I have personally found this to be very important in practice, without which results and insights simply will not show up. "
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the desire/intention for truth really forms the "push" and when this is absent,there's simply the half-hearted motivation in ones doing.
this factor can be seen /obvious with worldly success,but in the spiritual path is no less true.
nisargadatta once said(i phrase frm memory) : the intense desire for truth alone is enough,and will resolve all obstacles.
as my own experience,there are times when i simply meditate with the intention to want to know the truth,a few times in front of a buddha statue.in those moments,i never speculate with the mind/thoughts what the truths are or the path to it.
just a simple intention,disregarding all other distractions,and maintain ones focus/attention on this simple one (wordless)intend : " i wanna to know the ultimate truth,whatever that is ,however im gonna get it"(tip: the more intense the desire/intend the better)
for seekers stil struggle with confusion(like myself),i do recommend to take time(even brief moments)and "planting this seed" of intention by doing such contemplation .
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Good points...
Was just reminded of something JonLS wrote to me in another forum last year:
Something Vishrant said is that your whole life is involved in this transformation, it's all consuming, involving every minute of your life.
This is what life is like for me now.
But it's not something I am doing
there's a deep desire within for truth,
there's an inner pull, it comes from very deep within,
i have no other way of describing it.
and since you're so interested in all this stuff,
you must feel it too
but one thing though
i've noticed i'm constantly looking outside of myself for answers
looking to teachers and other people
but the true transformation is happening within
and there's not a damn thing i need to do about it
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