it seems that sila(morality) isn't of such importance in the path.
imagine this,one landed on a isolated island(there are dramas 'bout this,but in this senario,one is alone),feeding on plants alone,not eating meat.
what's the place of virtue then,in such situation?morality arises out of social(including animals,leave aside the more extreme view that 'plants feel pain') connection,and therefore,my conclusion is that for the average,"non-extreme"(killers,rapers etc) person,it's more fruitful to go directly to meditative practices and quickly attain enlightenment,then morality becomes "perfect",for whatever action the person takes,it will be without a self,and therefore,cannot be selfish,therefore harmful/detrimental(towards others).
I agree with what you said. It's not that morality can be ignored, since prior to insights we have to follow precepts etc to prevent further suffering/karma/bad rebirths.
But after the arising of insight, morality becomes more natural (rather than as a set of rules to follow) as actions, speech, thoughts, behaviors spring spontaneously from a deeper source of wisdom untainted by dualistic grasping/desires or a sense of self.
As long as we truly observe and experience reality as it is, unwholesome actions cannot arise. It is because we do not know reality that unwholesome actions spring from greed, hatred, ignorance (i.e. dualistic attraction, aversion, ignorance)
http://www.buddhanet.net/bvk_study/bvk216a.htm
The
Mahasattipatthana Sutta-maggasaccam - (the truth of
the Path)
emphasizes that Right speech - Right action and Right
Livelihood must
be based on 'what is' - with wisdom/insight and this must be
an experiential
understanding and not an intellectual game.
Morality
as explained by the Buddha is not a set of rules to be
blindly followed-there
has to be insight-wisdom and understanding from moment to
moment-based
on 'what is' (yatha bhutam pajanati).
The
noble eight fold path culminates in insight. Insight and
morality
go hand in hand. Without insight morality is simply a set of
rules.
Insight is the flowering of virtue in life-naturally,
normally, choicelessly,
effortlessly-based on 'what is'-based on 'as it is'.
Gurus before the Buddha and at the time of the Buddha and
even now
have been telling us-to do this-to do that-not to do
this-not to do
that, but morality/virtue cannot be forcefully practised
like this.
Mind cannot be forcefully purified. A pure mind is a mind
full of
love. A life with love and equanimity is virtuous life,
naturally.
Morality without insight is meaningless, it is not morality
at all.
In
fact this sutta emphasizes that the whole of the noble eight
fold
path is to be experienced and experienced at the level of
sensations
with insight leading to the ending of all the misery and
sorrow, the
ending of all fear-freedom from the known. (This has also
been discussed
under the heading ''The Four noble Truths''and ''freedom
from the
known'' in this study.)
The
Buddha states that the 'contents of the mind-concerning the 4
noble
truths'are observed as 'contents of the mind-concerning the 4
noble
truths.'-'as it is'-with insight at the level of sensations.
The 4th
noble truth is the truth of the path. - the noble eight fold
path.
-(Mahasatipatthana Sutta, Dhammanupassana- Catusaccapabbam-observation of mental contents - The section on the four noble Truths.)
What
matters is to live at the height of virtue. (I know you
don't like
that word). Those two words 'virtue' and 'righteousness'
have been
terribly abused, every priest uses them, every moralist or
idealist
employs them. But virtue is entirely different from
something which
is practised as virtue and therein lies its beauty; if you
try to
practise it, then it is no longer virtue. Virtue is not of
time, so
it cannot be practised and behaviour is not dependent on
environment;
environmental behaviour is all right in its way but it has
no virtue.
Virtue means to love, to have no fear, to live at the
highest level
of existence, which is to die to everything, inwardly, to
die to the
past, so that the mind is clear and innocent. And it is only
such
a mind that can come upon this extraordinary immensity which
is not
your own invention, nor that of some philosopher or guru.
- J. Krishnamurti, Pg. 168, You are the world.
Just my personal opinion; when one's outlook is filled with loving kindness and compassion, morality towards other beings naturally flows. We do not live in a void. Everything is contextual.
Milarepa, when offered cloths by his sister for clothing, cut them into sheaths covering only his extremities because that's where the coldness is felt where he lived in the caves as a hermit. He did not deemed it immoral as compared to what others had done in outside society.
Terms of morality varies, I remembered having read somewhere, there was an incident in Britain about a family of highwaymen who fed on their victims. Their children were brought up from young as cannibals knowing no different. However, when they finally caught, the children were hanged just the same.
If they have been caught in modern times, things may turn out differently for the children.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I agree with what you said. It's not that morality can be ignored, since prior to insights we have to follow precepts etc to prevent further suffering/karma/bad rebirths.
But after the arising of insight, morality becomes more natural (rather than as a set of rules to follow) as actions, speech, thoughts, behaviors spring spontaneously from a deeper source of wisdom untainted by dualistic grasping/desires or a sense of self.
As long as we truly observe and experience reality as it is, unwholesome actions cannot arise. It is because we do not know reality that unwholesome actions spring from greed, hatred, ignorance (i.e. dualistic attraction, aversion, ignorance)
http://www.buddhanet.net/bvk_study/bvk216a.htm
The Mahasattipatthana Sutta-maggasaccam - (the truth of the Path) emphasizes that Right speech - Right action and Right Livelihood must be based on 'what is' - with wisdom/insight and this must be an experiential understanding and not an intellectual game.
Morality as explained by the Buddha is not a set of rules to be blindly followed-there has to be insight-wisdom and understanding from moment to moment-based on 'what is' (yatha bhutam pajanati).
The noble eight fold path culminates in insight. Insight and morality go hand in hand. Without insight morality is simply a set of rules. Insight is the flowering of virtue in life-naturally, normally, choicelessly, effortlessly-based on 'what is'-based on 'as it is'.
Gurus before the Buddha and at the time of the Buddha and even now have been telling us-to do this-to do that-not to do this-not to do that, but morality/virtue cannot be forcefully practised like this. Mind cannot be forcefully purified. A pure mind is a mind full of love. A life with love and equanimity is virtuous life, naturally. Morality without insight is meaningless, it is not morality at all.In fact this sutta emphasizes that the whole of the noble eight fold path is to be experienced and experienced at the level of sensations with insight leading to the ending of all the misery and sorrow, the ending of all fear-freedom from the known. (This has also been discussed under the heading ''The Four noble Truths''and ''freedom from the known'' in this study.)
The Buddha states that the 'contents of the mind-concerning the 4 noble truths'are observed as 'contents of the mind-concerning the 4 noble truths.'-'as it is'-with insight at the level of sensations. The 4th noble truth is the truth of the path. - the noble eight fold path.
-(Mahasatipatthana Sutta, Dhammanupassana- Catusaccapabbam-observation of mental contents - The section on the four noble Truths.)
What matters is to live at the height of virtue. (I know you don't like that word). Those two words 'virtue' and 'righteousness' have been terribly abused, every priest uses them, every moralist or idealist employs them. But virtue is entirely different from something which is practised as virtue and therein lies its beauty; if you try to practise it, then it is no longer virtue. Virtue is not of time, so it cannot be practised and behaviour is not dependent on environment; environmental behaviour is all right in its way but it has no virtue. Virtue means to love, to have no fear, to live at the highest level of existence, which is to die to everything, inwardly, to die to the past, so that the mind is clear and innocent. And it is only such a mind that can come upon this extraordinary immensity which is not your own invention, nor that of some philosopher or guru.
- J. Krishnamurti, Pg. 168, You are the world.
I agree wholeheartedly with the point that morality/virtue cannot be forcefully practised and that the mind cannot be forcefully purified.
My burning question therefore is this: before one has achieved insight, then rules for morality would have to be enforced somehow from within or around us right? So some kind of forcing is still required it would seem..
Imagine a country or a community without any laws laid down in writing or agreed by most verbally in our current era. Crime rates will go up further and faster, even though Dharma teachings are still present.
The only era I can think of when laws, rules for social behaviour are not really required is that of when human lifespan can be observed to be increasing beyond the average global lifespan of 100 plus years, till we reach 84000 years old.
When human lifespan reaches 84000 years old, it is recorded in scriptures that all, if not most humans of that era, are perfect or almost perfect in their observance of the basic 5 precepts.
Originally posted by Weychin:Just my personal opinion; when one's outlook is filled with loving kindness and compassion, morality towards other beings naturally flows. We do not live in a void. Everything is contextual.
Milarepa, when offered cloths by his sister for clothing, cut them into sheaths covering only his extremities because that's where the coldness is felt where he lived in the caves as a hermit. He did not deemed it immoral as compared to what others had done in outside society.
Terms of morality varies, I remembered having read somewhere, there was an incident in Britain about a family of highwaymen who fed on their victims. Their children were brought up from young as cannibals knowing no different. However, when they finally caught, the children were hanged just the same.
If they have been caught in modern times, things may turn out differently for the children.
I agree with you that if and when one's outlook is truly filled with loving kindness and compassion, morality would become something as natural as breathing.
What would happen to these children if they have been caught in modern times? I can't help but think it may not necessarily end up being any different...
Can our modern society truly accept cannibalism? Are we so sure we can wean these children off a lifestyle of cannibalism; years of eating raw human flesh since they were born? How many of us are able to go vegan or vegetarian completely and permanently even when we feel like trying? How long did it take for some of us to achieve that?
This one I have to disagree. Without pure sila, it is difficult to have pure samadhi.
In Mahayana Buddhism, we are supposed to grow our bodhicitta and use various methods to reduce our constant clinging to worldly desire. For majority of people including myself, one of the most effective ways is still by taking precepts.
Think of Tiger Wood and Jack Neo ...
some sharing based on personal observation
the noble eightfold path can be understood and applied on seemingly two platforms.
first is on the conditional platform which involves our daily life, activities, actions, intentions, aspirations and all of these stuff. it is conditional based on the environment, our preferences, interpretations, and is guided by explicit rules. the understanding is largely conceptual and practicing requires much effort in most cases. logical reasoning and personal beliefs come into play when integrating the teachings to our life at this platform. of cos the actual practice is dualistic in nature with a tinge of 'i am practicing morality to be a good person, i should be a faithful person to be moral, i should not be doing this' etc.
second is on the reflective platform and is not so much involved in the content of the path but in the process of taking notice. although much of this is also tied to the everyday happenings around us, the way the practicing of the path has a different 'feel' to it. everything happens at the 'awareness' level, initially with the mind observing all the thoughts and intentions ( subject/object ), gradually as one gets used to this the entire experience is seen as a sequence or process of thoughts. the eightfold path becomes a sort of a mish mash operating under the directive of mindfulness (something like right mindfulness is the operating system while the rest are the important softwares that runs together or at the background or waiting to be installed).
to quote Ajahn Sumedho in his writing The Eightfold Path as a Reflective Teaching taken from http://www.buddhanet.net/4noble.htm
an excerpt:
In this Eightfold Path, the eight elements work like eight legs supporting you. It is not like: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 on a linear scale; it is more of a working together. It is not that you develop panna first and then when you have panna, you can develop your sila; and once your sila is developed, then you will have samadhi. That is how we think, isn’t it: ‘You have to have one, then two and then three.’ As an actual realisation, developing the Eightfold Path is an experience in a moment, it is all one. All the parts are working as one strong development; it is not a linear process - we might think that way because we can only have one thought at a time.
Everything I have said about the Eightfold Path and the Four Noble Truths is only a reflection. What is really important is for you to realise what I am actually doing as I reflect rather than to grasp the things that I am saying. It is a process of bringing the Eightfold Path into your mind, using it as a reflective teaching so that you can consider what it really means. Don’t just think you know it because you can say, ‘Samma ditthi means Right Understanding and Samma sankappa means Right Thought.’ This is intellectual understanding. Someone might say, ‘No, I think samma sankappa means....’ And you answer, ‘No, in the book it says Right Thought. You’ve got it wrong.’ This is not reflection.
when im pondering on the question posed in this thread, the direction pointed to is that of the conditional platform whereby morality is a condition that can/cannot be ignored. sensing deeper, the entire eightfold path is an 'internal' process happening automatically and most obvious with the practice of mindfulness. As Jon Kabat Zinn wrote in his book < Coming to our Senses> with 'mindfulness everything else will come along'.
i don't think morality can be ignored. We tend to associate morality with a set of laws to follow. In Buddhism, morality (sila) is simply doing the things that help others and oneself and avoiding the things that harm others and oneself. I think we tend to try to do that quite automatically right?
The only difference is that Buddha with his far-ranging wisdom can see that certain actions, for instance, sexual misconduct or divisive speech is not good in the long run and so he 'advises' us to avoid such things. We, as just people with limited understanding, can't see far into the consequences of actions so due to our faith in Buddha's wisdom, we try to follow his guidance.
For one to progress on the path, it has always been advised to proceed first with a good moral basis then build up concentration, then wisdom can arise.
The reason is simple. Without moral basis, we face the repercussions of karma which can obstruct our peace of mind. No peace of mind, can you meditate well? If our choices of actions creates harm for others, then it follows logically that we will be harmed, constantly under anxiety , fear and hope. Then when your world is constantly under threat, can u meditate well?
That is why "Do unto others what you wish for yourself" always works.
Also, if you do not care for others, or care about what impact your actions has on others and try to minimise harm to others, then can you honestly say that your practice is about benefitting others?
If you say that your practice is only about yourself attaining realisation, then look at the emphasis of the Thai traditions and other Hinayana traditions, how they place great emphasis on morality in order to simplify their lives and concentrate wholeheartedly on practice.
Even worldly people cannot survive without ethics, not to say spiritual people. We are not a lone island. We need to respect ourselves and others.
Good points everyone. Yes indeed, without upholding precepts, one can hardly develope samadhi and insights.
Originally posted by Spnw07:I agree wholeheartedly with the point that morality/virtue cannot be forcefully practised and that the mind cannot be forcefully purified.
My burning question therefore is this: before one has achieved insight, then rules for morality would have to be enforced somehow from within or around us right? So some kind of forcing is still required it would seem..
Imagine a country or a community without any laws laid down in writing or agreed by most verbally in our current era. Crime rates will go up further and faster, even though Dharma teachings are still present.
The only era I can think of when laws, rules for social behaviour are not really required is that of when human lifespan can be observed to be increasing beyond the average global lifespan of 100 plus years, till we reach 84000 years old.
When human lifespan reaches 84000 years old, it is recorded in scriptures that all, if not most humans of that era, are perfect or almost perfect in their observance of the basic 5 precepts.
Law, rules, precepts has to be enforced if one does not have mindfulness and wisdom and self control, like Jit Kiat say - think of Tiger Woods and Jack Neo. Basically, we have to follow the precepts. But we should practice and develope mindfulness and wisdom to the point where morality becomes natural and spontaneous as a result of continuous awareness, and rules become arbitrary.
Ajahn Brahm's book MINDFULNESS, BLISS, AND BEYOND: A MEDITATOR'S HANDBOOK is a good reference for meditation. In it, there are several references on why a good moral life is very helpful for meditation. Including how it affects the nimitta and letting-go process etc.
In general, it is a very clear book on meditation.
The world honored one, the Buddha before entering Nirvana told Venerable Ananda, " Take precepts as your great master". From this exhoration, we can see the importance of precepts.
Precepts provides a "guard against transgression." They also carry the meaning of "restraint and stopping". Just as it is said "do no evil and practice every good."
Before you are enlightened to your own nature, these precepts will help oneself in straightening their bodies and minds.