difference btween experience and realization
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my aim/goal now is to strive for a unshakable knowing,a "sense" of certainty,of the truth.now this may sound vague,and one may naturally ask - what truth?truth about what?one's self?phenomena/objects?
now questions are within the world of thoughts,and im unwilling to fall into the conceptual realm;as i trust the mind will never be the vehicle that will take us all the way to the realm of awakening.so there's just this simple sense of belief/trust that there's some ultimate truth,when realized,will take one beyond any sense of doubt,an unshakable certainty that - this is it.
my question is,how can one differentiate between experiences and true realization ?
since in one sense,realization has the same quality as experience,since in the recognition/noticing of something which has always been there( the removal of obscurations) ; there's this "something (insight)which suddenly appears".experiences also appears and ends.
perhaps bernadette roberts is right in which she said(in her book - what is self)the self can only be known/understood when it's gone,and through retrospection can one know that the end of self has been reached.one will never know the what self is as long as one is in it.
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another question that comes to mind is this : without reliance on anyhing,and i mean ,anything at all - teachers,scriptures,faith in stages of path,can one reach the end of the journey?
i really want to dispense with anything conceptual,any views,any belief,thoughts and just let wherever this approach takes me to.
though im now reading (and try to digest) thusness's article - 7 stages,and also other spiritual articles,it just doesn't seem to get me anywhere.it seems my main obstacles now are the mind/thoughts,and i need to trust more on direct observation and let whatever revelation comes unhindered(by trying to understand with the mind).
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..... whatever revelation comes unhindered(instead of trying to understand with the mind).
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When the questions and answers are no longer there and one simply is - that is in itself realization
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Just a few points: I assume you have read the blog I and Thusness run, and are familiar with his articles.
You asked, what is one 'certain of' when one is realised? First of all there are a few different realisations and experience - mainly the I AMness, One Mind, No Mind, Emptiness. Each insight are complementary are important as they relate to different insights of the nature of reality and deconstructing certain mental constructs. As Thusness described,
1. If you de-construct the subjective pole, you will be led to the experience of No-Mind.
2. If you de-construct the objective pole, you will be led to the experience of One-Mind.
3. If you go through a process of de-constructing prepositional phrases like "in/out" "inside/outside" "into/onto," "within/without" "here/there", you will dissolve the illusionary nature of locality and time.
4. If you simply go through the process of self-enquiry by disassociation and elimination without clearly understanding the non-inherent and dependent originated nature of phenomena, you will be led to the experience of “I AMness”.
(see Thusness's reply in Mind and Self-Liberation)
If you follow the path of self inquiry, you ask 'Before birth Who am I?' or just 'Who am I?' - This koan will lead to the realisation of I AMness. There is certainty about the luminous aspect of one's Being. One knows without a doubt that there is an undeniable luminous essence that is aware and present as a sense of pure beingness or a pure sense of existence, presence and knowingness. Then one may practice another koan, or further investigations to deconstruct the objective pole resulting in the insight of non-duality or One Mind where one is then 'certain of' reality as not divided in terms of subject and object, followed by further deconstruction leading to the experience of No Mind and insight of Anatta. Each insight brings a new insight and certainty about reality and deconstructs a different level of mental construct.
However this path is different from Daniel Ingram, who follows the path of vipassana. It climbs the insight stages (nanas), results in fruition, and leading to the No Mind experience and Anatta insight. It bypasses the I AMness stage of realisation.
So if you 'choose' to go through the I AMness experience, to have the certainty and conviction in your luminous essence, you can start with self inquiry like what the Zen tradition (especially emphasized in some Zen masters like Master Hsu Yun) or the Advaita tradition teach. However in Buddhism, the I AM is not the final stage of enlightenment, since insight into Anatta and Emptiness does not come automatically, though in itself it is an important realisation and experience.
If you prefer to practice Vipassana, it is a slightly different path but also eventually leads to realisation of non-dual luminosity and anatta. I do have some experience with it and experienced some of the insight stages (nanas) but currently I do not focus on this path.
As for realisation vs experience: Realisation is just clearly and directly seeing a fact of reality that is so obvious and clear as to be beyond doubt.
In my undestanding, passing states and experiences are not realisation since they may not be related to seeing/realising the fundamental nature of reality which is eternal and ever-present. If it is simply an experience that comes and goes, that is not insight. Insight is 'seeing' something that is a fundamental truth of reality and ever-present at all moments (though it is not a dualistic seeing, not a 'me' seeing something) and hence is not something that comes and goes, not something that can 'leave' or 'be lost'.
As Tejananda said in his article Pure Awareness (which is quite a good read):
Is there any way to distinguish between non-insightful states of openness, stillness etc and pure awareness? One way would be to note whether these qualities are arising or not – i.e. are they objects that come into awareness; or is it unarising (undeveloped, natural) emptiness-clarity which is not an object (or subject) but which is just ‘there/here’ by its very nature?
As I am far from realising everything and can only speak from what I've learnt, hope Thusness and Longchen can comment further.
Oh and regarding teachers, teachers and views, I wrote based on what Thusness said in my forum: I have to agree with you that a teacher is important - an experienced and enlightened teacher who can impart the Right View. This is to help us 'see' how a non-dual non-conceptual direct meditative experience is being reified into a metaphysical essence without even us noticing it. Ignorance goes far deeper than a non-dual, non-conceptual meditative state. Hence, a teacher is necessary to point out the right view, otherwise we will reify our meditative experience and get stuck on the monist view that you mentioned.
Like what Thusness said and I quoted previously:
if the path consists of practice without the right view, almost without fail it will result in Advaita sort of experience.
Buddhism is very subtle and without proper guidance it is difficult to grasp what the Buddha wants us to know.
But of course as Thusness said in On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection:
Before proceeding any further, it is of absolute importance to know that there is no way the stanzas can be correctly understood by way of inference, logical deduction or induction. Not that there is something mystical or transcendental about the stanzas but simply the way of mental chattering is a 'wrong approach'. The right technique is through 'vipassana' or any more direct and attentive bare mode of observation that allows the seeing of things as they are. Just a casual note, such mode of knowing turns natural when non-dual insight matures, before that it can be quite 'efforting'.Self Inquiry too, leads to direct experience and observation of of the I AMness without conceptual overlay.
Any method must lead to "direct and attentive bare mode of observation that allows the seeing of things as they are" in order for insights to arise.
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Hi,
Just a sharing.. since we are all practicing and learning.
IMO, it is good to practice and refer to the teaching.. for authentication. Good realised Teachers are very important.
More often than not, the initial experiences will have in-correct assumptions. For example, the first experience of the pure presence will almost always be characterised and assumed to be a vast, all-pervading eternal witness that is observing and witnessing the world/sense experiences.
The realisations are usually stage-based. The implication, is that a wrong assumption will leave us stuck in that particular stage where the assumption was made. For example, if we assume that the Reality is like the I AM stage -level understanding, we most probably will not move on to realise the non-dual level experiences. And without the experiences of non-duality, it is quite impossible to realise the more subtle realisation of emptiness... as the emptiness insight 'required' the experience and understanding of non-duality.
So.. the insights build up progressively with each correct re-orientation.
Also, IMO, realisations are not just mind-level insights. There is an energetic aspect. For example, non-conceptuality is also an energetic experience. The energy-level of the body is different when non-conceptuality is experienced.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Just a few points: I assume you have read the blog I and Thusness run, and are familiar with his articles.
You asked, what is one 'certain of' when one is realised? First of all there are a few different realisations and experience - mainly the I AMness, One Mind, No Mind, Emptiness. Each insight are complementary are important as they relate to different insights of the nature of reality and deconstructing certain mental constructs. As Thusness described,
1. If you de-construct the subjective pole, you will be led to the experience of No-Mind.
2. If you de-construct the objective pole, you will be led to the experience of One-Mind.
3. If you go through a process of de-constructing prepositional phrases like "in/out" "inside/outside" "into/onto," "within/without" "here/there", you will dissolve the illusionary nature of locality and time.
4. If you simply go through the process of self-enquiry by disassociation and elimination without clearly understanding the non-inherent and dependent originated nature of phenomena, you will be led to the experience of “I AMness”.
(see Thusness's reply in Mind and Self-Liberation)
If you follow the path of self inquiry, you ask 'Before birth Who am I?' or just 'Who am I?' - This koan will lead to the realisation of I AMness. There is certainty about the luminous aspect of one's Being. One knows without a doubt that there is an undeniable luminous essence that is aware and present as a sense of pure beingness or a pure sense of existence, presence and knowingness. Then one may practice another koan, or further investigations to deconstruct the objective pole resulting in the insight of non-duality or One Mind where one is then 'certain of' reality as not divided in terms of subject and object, followed by further deconstruction leading to the experience of No Mind and insight of Anatta. Each insight brings a new insight and certainty about reality and deconstructs a different level of mental construct.
However this path is different from Daniel Ingram, who follows the path of vipassana. It climbs the insight stages (nanas), results in fruition, and leading to the No Mind experience and Anatta insight. It bypasses the I AMness stage of realisation.
So if you 'choose' to go through the I AMness experience, to have the certainty and conviction in your luminous essence, you can start with self inquiry like what the Zen tradition (especially emphasized in some Zen masters like Master Hsu Yun) or the Advaita tradition teach. However in Buddhism, the I AM is not the final stage of enlightenment, since insight into Anatta and Emptiness does not come automatically, though in itself it is an important realisation and experience.
If you prefer to practice Vipassana, it is a slightly different path but also eventually leads to realisation of non-dual luminosity and anatta. I do have some experience with it and experienced some of the insight stages (nanas) but currently I do not focus on this path.
As for realisation vs experience: Realisation is just clearly and directly seeing a fact of reality that is so obvious and clear as to be beyond doubt.
In my undestanding, passing states and experiences are not realisation since they may not be related to seeing/realising the fundamental nature of reality which is eternal and ever-present. If it is simply an experience that comes and goes, that is not insight. Insight is 'seeing' something that is a fundamental truth of reality and ever-present at all moments (though it is not a dualistic seeing, not a 'me' seeing something) and hence is not something that comes and goes, not something that can 'leave' or 'be lost'.
As Tejananda said in his article Pure Awareness (which is quite a good read):
Is there any way to distinguish between non-insightful states of openness, stillness etc and pure awareness? One way would be to note whether these qualities are arising or not – i.e. are they objects that come into awareness; or is it unarising (undeveloped, natural) emptiness-clarity which is not an object (or subject) but which is just ‘there/here’ by its very nature?
As I am far from realising everything and can only speak from what I've learnt, hope Thusness and Longchen can comment further.
Oh and regarding teachers, teachers and views, I wrote based on what Thusness said in my forum: I have to agree with you that a teacher is important - an experienced and enlightened teacher who can impart the Right View. This is to help us 'see' how a non-dual non-conceptual direct meditative experience is being reified into a metaphysical essence without even us noticing it. Ignorance goes far deeper than a non-dual, non-conceptual meditative state. Hence, a teacher is necessary to point out the right view, otherwise we will reify our meditative experience and get stuck on the monist view that you mentioned.
Like what Thusness said and I quoted previously:
if the path consists of practice without the right view, almost without fail it will result in Advaita sort of experience.
Buddhism is very subtle and without proper guidance it is difficult to grasp what the Buddha wants us to know.
But of course as Thusness said in On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection:
Before proceeding any further, it is of absolute importance to know that there is no way the stanzas can be correctly understood by way of inference, logical deduction or induction. Not that there is something mystical or transcendental about the stanzas but simply the way of mental chattering is a 'wrong approach'. The right technique is through 'vipassana' or any more direct and attentive bare mode of observation that allows the seeing of things as they are. Just a casual note, such mode of knowing turns natural when non-dual insight matures, before that it can be quite 'efforting'.Self Inquiry too, leads to direct experience and observation of of the I AMness without conceptual overlay.
Any method must lead to "direct and attentive bare mode of observation that allows the seeing of things as they are" in order for insights to arise.
I wholeheartedly agree that 'Buddhism is very subtle and without proper guidance it is difficult to grasp what the Buddha wants us to know'. Such is my experience thus far. Indeed there is 'there is no way the stanzas can be correctly understood by way of inference, logical deduction or induction'.
If anybody were to possess an Arahant's psychic eye abilities or even that of the Buddha's, they would probably see that since time immemorial, very few humans out of the whole world population would be able to achieve true Dharma insight (that which will immediately allow you to know beyond doubt you will be fully liberated from future rebirths after this present lifetime) in one single lifetime, regardless of the era they live in.
That is why samsaric existence will continue to be for most of us for a very long time until conditions for Dharma learning and insight come and stay together at right time. We can cultivate countless conditions for the quick achievement of Dharma Insight, but most of us will hardly be able to know exactly when such conditions will ripen.
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in my original post,there's this (immature) assumption to make the path and attainment into a simple 2 stage - ignorant and enlightenment,duality and nonduality etc... in the past i was much taken by ssome teachings which promoted just this,and give a single path/practice towards this attainment.
the path is not that simple it seems.....
aen: ive just beginning to read this blog (also awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com)and there are still many things to chew/understood
longchen : as 4 ur comment o assumptions,im really not sure the ones i have,there's readng from diferent sources,and its 'rojak' in here... i simply have the attitde that whn one 'get it'(awakened),all doubts/questioning will vanish .
about energetic experience,there';s a number of enlightened teachers whose describe their own realization unvoidably involve certain kind opf energy/experience.
it's like realization involves the "soul being release frm bondage of physical body" sensation,sort of obe...
so far my path doesn't involved any sort of experiences,and there's frustration/doubt that im not practicing correctly,if the theory of experiences are true.
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about the "experience" of realization : im still far from it,and speculation isnt helpful at this stage of my practice ,but im still curious to know :
1. is ultimate realization really involves sensation similar to obe(out of body) experiences?
2. is the ultimate knot(fundamental ignorance) can sort of 'reside'in this physical body(therefore when the knot is finally broken,the body reacts in a strong/extreme way)?
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Realisation does not necessarily lead to out of body experiences.
I do however, have out of body experience sort of experiences while doing self-inquiry.
Felt like floating out of my body into the surroundings even as I was walking, like I was a sphere of awareness floating away from my body. It was also very blissful. If I am not wrong, I was asking myself "Who is dragging this corpse along?"
Thusness told me it is due to disassociation.
So such experiences happen, but I don't think it is necessary for enlightenment. Enlightenment and OBE are not the same and not exactly related. However, when one's nondual insight matures, one will experience the 'Mind-Body Drop' which is a form of deconstructing 'body'. One will feel weightless and without body. I have not experienced this so cannot comment further. However, it is not the same as the sort of disassociative experience I described above.
OBEs however sometimes happen when you reach what Daniel Ingram called 'the arising and passing event' (A&P) in meditation (or even in dreams), it also happens during lucid dreaming, or when you experience sleep paralysis, or if you take drugs (but I don't do drugs). These are altered states of consciousness where these things do happen, from my experience.
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Such experiences may however be helpful as Jax Peterson says:
At some point, as the crown chakra fully opens don't be surprised to notice that you have floated away from your body... usually only several feet away. Just you, a sphere of Awareness, floating in the space of your room or outside looking back at your body. In that moment you then know your body has no real connection to you in terms of identity... it is just like a car you have been driving around for awhile.
The floating out of the body experience produces a permanent sense of true non-identity. More doubts fall away... forever. At least that's been my experience...(full text)Would it be possible for you to share with us here some of those clear light abbreviated methods? Or maybe in private e-mails? Unfortunately, not everyone is able to go to a retreat...
Jax: Thanks Lanusse! I would be glad to share some basic Clear Light practices that bring about a very pronounced sense of Being rapidly. From investigating most of the lineage models as presented in the world's mystical practice traditions from various cultures around the planet since 1966, and experimenting with those methods as taught to me by masters of those traditions, I can say that by now its become clear to at least myself, that there do exist methods and approaches that are more accurate and direct than others. And among the most direct methods there also appears to be commonalities of result.To super-summerize the entire path in one expression I would say: The fastest route and approach would be to engage in a practice that opens the crown chakra easily. When the crown chakra opens the sphere of Awareness that has its seat in the skull, experiences total unbounded spacious Awareness automatically. Imagine this sphere of Awareness, which is your actual cognitive presence as though enclosed within the center of a lotus flower, situated towards the top of skull, yet centered in the skull. The petals of the lotus flower surround your consciousness which sits directly above the center of the flower's stem. The stem is the central channel of the subtle body of Light. When the nourishing sap rises up the stem and reaches the flower at the top, the petals begin to open revealing that which is within the flower. In this case the sap that rises up the stem is Kundalini. The flower petals are actually an extremely fine network of web-like energy channels that are usually contracted and dormant. This web of energy networks adds to the sense of solidity that makes the sphere of Awareness seem as though it is a solid entity attached firmly within the skull.At death this cocoon-like network of energy channels disintegrates and the sphere of Awareness floats away from the physical body. For a practitioner of Clear Light methods, like Dzogchen thogal and yang-ti, they will float out of the body through the eyes.For various other reasons at times, the sphere of Awareness breaks loose of the confining energy webbing and floats outside of the body. This happens at times of near-death experiences caused by heart attacks, severe illnesses and sudden impacts. However the sphere of Awareness is still connected to the body through the central channel connected to the heart chakra. If normal death occurs, the Awareness will enter the central channel and will drift down through the central channel to the heart center. This is experienced as though one is floating through a tunnel of light. At the end of the central channel at the heart a very bright light is observed. As one moves closer to the Light it appears to be a Beingness of unconditional love, bliss and total wisdom... it is your true nature shining. The Awareness may merge with the Light, if so that would be total Self-Realization. In Tibet that is referred to as the merging of the son and mother lights. The son would be Rigpa and the mother would be the pure Emptiness of the Dharmakaya.However, there is another method to enter directly into this dimension of Light, Being and Knowing through very specific practices. By bringing the Kundalini energy up through the central channel into the crown chakra, the chakra energy field opens and expands. At first one notices a sensation of no longer being connected to the body yet not yet away from it. Awareness becomes fully present to its nature as a beingness that is not located in a body nor even in the universe or located in space or time. In this moment of illumination, if one deliberately notices the head or skull it will seem transparent or completely absent. It seems instead of you being in your body, rather your body is in you as the unchanging field of Being/Awareness. This is the first stage. Most can come to this and do in their first retreat. The experience leaves one without doubts and certainty of one's actual true nature.Now, it is not necessary to raise the Kundalini up the central channel. Actually in the center of the crown chakra there is a huge reservoir of Kundilini always present, due to the fact that the crown chakra is the seat of Awareness. One can utilize a not well known method to activate the Kundalini directly in the crown chakra alone.Here is the method: sense a spot of energy like a luminous clear-white ball slightly below the crown of your skull, centered between the ears but slightly higher, yet centered in between. Close your eyes and sense that the little luminous sphere is the center of your Awareness. Notice how the sphere is itself Awareness. Be that sphere and just be. Concentrate on only that. Notice the interior of your skull, as if it is hollow, remain with your eyes closed and sense a spacious clear light inseperable from your awareness. If the interior of your skull seems foggy or densley dark instead of clear and empty, practice looking in a mirror at your eyes and at the clear glass of the mirror at your eyes in the reflection until your visual awareness seems crisp and transparent. Then sit and do the practice again with your eyes closed, but noticing the crisp clearness of the interior light that offers a sensation of clear inner empty space. You need to sense a dimension of spaciousness as luminous awareness. Practice with this exercise until you begin to sense that the solidity of your skull is becoming transparent and your sense of being a sphere of Awareness has become pronounced. At that moment, just rest as that Awareness. The mind will have already vanished with all its thoughts and images... just rest in that Clear Light Awareness, that you are.After 20 to 30 minutes slowly open your eyes and begin to integrate the external spatial dimension of the room as you see it, into your Awareness. Now with eyes fully open... just rest in total integration with the space of Being just as you are.If you don't then re-engage in conceptualizing and other mental meanderings, you will find great peace and stability in just being present effortlessly.To further open the crown chakra, practice with these exercises along with external sky-gazing and bringing your Awareness to your eyes, crisply and without moving your eyes, gaze straight into the space of the sky. After 20 or 30 minutes of external sky gazing, immediately close your eyes and notice the vast inner space of your skull and the clarity of your inner spacious Awareness. Now notice that the top of your crown appears transparent and open to the sky. Your entire skull is becoming transparent... just rest in that luminous transparency which is the nature of your Being. All sense of ego identity or self will vanish as those shadows are transformed into Light, the Clear Light of Awareness.There are many more details that I have left out, as they really are best suited to live guidence as given in the retreat setting. But this abbreviated form will definitely produce immediate results... its been well tested not only in my retreats but in my weekly practice sessions that I teach in Chicago.I would ask for those who want guidance and have questions, please post to the group lists, as your issues, challenges and questions will be beneficial to all of us. If you are too shy to do so, then just email me directly.If those on these lists are serious about your practice success, then here you go! Take advantage of my being able to mentor you through these steps of practice.At some point, as the crown chakra fully opens don't be surprised to notice that you have floated away from your body... usually only several feet away. Just you, a sphere of Awareness, floating in the space of your room or outside looking back at your body. In that moment you then know your body has no real connection to you in terms of identity... it is just like a car you have been driving around for awhile.The floating out of the body experience produces a permanent sense of true non-identity. More doubts fall away... forever. At least that's been my experience...There are two more stages beyond this level of practice. The next exercises open all the chakras and the energies of consciousness become stabilized in the central channel. The third level opens all of the Light channels between the heart and the eyes, as well as Light channels through out the head and entire body. Eventually, the heart chakra opens fully and completely revealing the Infinite Light of Unconditional Love and Compassion for the benefit of all beings...We are actually doing part of the third level work on the first level exercises.... and that is why this approach is so powerful and rapid. What is experienced has nothing to do with the mind and its endlessprattle and distraction.For those interested to experiment and explore... please do! May you never be the same!Love,Jax -
Originally posted by a seeker:
in my original post,there's this (immature) assumption to make the path and attainment into a simple 2 stage - ignorant and enlightenment,duality and nonduality etc... in the past i was much taken by ssome teachings which promoted just this,and give a single path/practice towards this attainment.
the path is not that simple it seems.....
aen: ive just beginning to read this blog (also awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com)and there are still many things to chew/understood
longchen : as 4 ur comment o assumptions,im really not sure the ones i have,there's readng from diferent sources,and its 'rojak' in here... i simply have the attitde that whn one 'get it'(awakened),all doubts/questioning will vanish .
about energetic experience,there';s a number of enlightened teachers whose describe their own realization unvoidably involve certain kind opf energy/experience.
it's like realization involves the "soul being release frm bondage of physical body" sensation,sort of obe...
so far my path doesn't involved any sort of experiences,and there's frustration/doubt that im not practicing correctly,if the theory of experiences are true.
Hi Seeker,
Please don't get frustrated. The path is not easy to walk.... for anyone. Those concepts of guru's being special and above others are just ego-images... The practice becomes most-ordinary with time.
For me, there are also much areas where integration is required.
As for the energy level difference, it is not about OBE. It is that when non-conceptuality is occuring, the mental deconstruction let go of all constrictions and one feels energised and released. The energy difference is sudden and distinct. You know, all kinds of mental speculating, projecting, duality-split are actually very energy consuming. To hold convention reality in place, energy is unconsciously expended.. :)
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" Any method must lead to "direct and attentive bare mode of observation that allows the seeing of things as they are" in order for insights to arise. "
aen : very insightfully said,since clarity is vitally important for seeing thing as they are ;and this is why mindfulness cannot be dispense of .
but im still in the search for a object of focus;not in the intense concentrative way in which one focuses 1 thing to the exclusion of everytthing else(i naturally lack this kind of ability)
since it's this sense of separate self that's the root cause of suffering ,instead of focussing of any objects/phenomena(eg.the sense field-sound,sights etc..)perhaps i should just keep my attention barely ,strongly and continuously on this (vague) sense of a separate entity.
will this kind of practice leads to a fruitful results/insights?
i think this is the essence of self inquiry,"just be",simply remain as "i am".
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" i think this is the essence of self inquiry,"just be",simply remain as "i am". "
i should add this is not to be done in a passive way, "just be" ,but with the strong desire to "know the truth as they are" ,a 'curious/questioning mind(not in the conceptual way)".then the chances of truth revealing itself are much much higher.
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" 1. If you de-construct the subjective pole, you will be led to the experience of No-Mind. "
aen : any resources where i can read for better intellectual grasp of this?
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Originally posted by a seeker:
" 1. If you de-construct the subjective pole, you will be led to the experience of No-Mind. "
aen : any resources where i can read for better intellectual grasp of this?
Hi,
You won't understand this now.
It is of no use to intellectually grasp this.. It will only confuse further.
Right now, i see that you are trying to put all this information into a conceptual framework. IMO, it is better to take the information 'lightly', but put the effort in practicing mindfulness... like now noticing and feeling the urge to put all the information into safe way of understanding.
Sorry if i sound harsh. I have this habit before... it have proven to be a major stumbling block.. trying to mentally compartmentalise and intellectualise information.
Later on, the more memories of information that one have, they will pop up often and pulling your attention into verifying them.
At non-conceptual stage, 'nonduality' and 'emptiness' are also tools and concepts used... for there is nothing that can define 'what is'.
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Originally posted by a seeker:
" 1. If you de-construct the subjective pole, you will be led to the experience of No-Mind. "
aen : any resources where i can read for better intellectual grasp of this?
Thusness discussed somewhat about this in the section 4. On Non-Dual Experience, Realization and Anatta
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Originally posted by a seeker:
" i think this is the essence of self inquiry,"just be",simply remain as "i am". "
i should add this is not to be done in a passive way, "just be" ,but with the strong desire to "know the truth as they are" ,a 'curious/questioning mind(not in the conceptual way)".then the chances of truth revealing itself are much much higher.
The desire to 'know the truth as they are' is an inward pulling to just being. In the end, all thoughts itself dissolve, including the inquiry itself will dissolve, in which Sri Ramana Maharshi described eloquently:
"The thought 'Who am I?' will destroy all other thoughts, and like the stick used for stirring the burning pyre, it will itself in the end get destroyed. Then, there will arise Self-Realization."
However the inquiry and the desire is an important 'tool' to self-realization.
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Originally posted by a seeker:
" Any method must lead to "direct and attentive bare mode of observation that allows the seeing of things as they are" in order for insights to arise. "
aen : very insightfully said,since clarity is vitally important for seeing thing as they are ;and this is why mindfulness cannot be dispense of .
but im still in the search for a object of focus;not in the intense concentrative way in which one focuses 1 thing to the exclusion of everytthing else(i naturally lack this kind of ability)
since it's this sense of separate self that's the root cause of suffering ,instead of focussing of any objects/phenomena(eg.the sense field-sound,sights etc..)perhaps i should just keep my attention barely ,strongly and continuously on this (vague) sense of a separate entity.
will this kind of practice leads to a fruitful results/insights?
i think this is the essence of self inquiry,"just be",simply remain as "i am".
Yes this is fine.
Thusness usually will ask others (if he didn't ask them to do vipassana) to do koans like "Who am I" as a koan will lead to direct realisation of the I AM.
This I AM may in the beginning be confused with individuality, but further investigation will lead to the experience of I AM as infinite, impersonal, like a universal source.
But even that is not yet the realisation of non-dual or anatta.
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longchen : thanks for pointing me away from distractions
aen : you have done a great service here by guiding forummers whenever specific questions/problems arises(personal advices and also referrence to articles/links)
"spiritual google" i would say
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i wonder in times of war or grave political turmoil that affects the destiny of the peoples or a nation...what could be the experience and realization?
one could meditate in peace, shutting off all sensory perceptions - ignoring the screams, bullets of the nights, blood-smelled air ...what could be the state of mind of an enlightened being vs massacres in such a night?
could someone detached go into temporal attachments to play one's part to stop blood with one's blood in such times? and when victory reigns, and bloodshed ceased, then go back to longer detachments in times of peace?
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Originally posted by Fcukpap:
i wonder in times of war or grave political turmoil that affects the destiny of the peoples or a nation...what could be the experience and realization?
one could meditate in peace, shutting off all sensory perceptions - ignoring the screams, bullets of the nights, blood-smelled air ...what could be the state of mind of an enlightened being vs massacres in such a night?
could someone detached go into temporal attachments to play one's part to stop blood with one's blood in such times? and when victory reigns, and bloodshed ceased, then go back to longer detachments in times of peace?
To help the nation you don't necessarily have to go into politics. But each person have their own calling.
Buddhism isn't just about 'meditate in peace' since most of us have our own work.
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Originally posted by a seeker:
longchen : thanks for pointing me away from distractions
aen : you have done a great service here by guiding forummers whenever specific questions/problems arises(personal advices and also referrence to articles/links)
"spiritual google" i would say
Haha thanks.. I am still very much a learner.
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yes i agree - but when the enemy threatens one's family...there may be a need for subjective morality
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Originally posted by a seeker:
longchen : thanks for pointing me away from distractions
Welcome :)
Don't wish to see someone going through the confusions that i have experienced . : P