Hi does anyone here who has knowledge in Tibetan Buddhism?
I read an introduction in a book that Tibetan Buddhism is esoteric and it contains explicit sexual content. If practise wrongly, one might become indulged into the senses and unable to gain enlightenment. That's why it is esoteric?
My point of view here is:
I'm not interested in Tibetan Buddhism... but why this is allowed..? I felt that it's different from the mainstream buddhism here...
my 2 cents
constructive comments pls thanks
hi 2009novice,
i dun know much on buddhism, but i'd like to contribute.
Firstly, be careful of what books you read. Many books misrepresent Buddhism, especially with regard to the Tibetan Buddhism ( which is mainly referring to the Vajrayana vehicle of practice).
In general, the reason why Vajrayana is considered esoteric and had to be kept under wraps is to protect people in general from getting wrong ideas about the practice. When people get wrong ideas and then they start to slander Vajrayana, they commit a very negative karma which harms themselves. So it is for this reason that Vajrayana has to be more secretive and also to be considered esoteric.
The question you have is exactly one of the sore areas that is often misunderstood. In Buddhism, our main aim is to remove the afflictions such as desire, hatred and ignorance. To do that, there are several approaches:
In the Hinayana, desire is removed by avoidance. Meaning desire is removed through contemplating the filthiness of the human body to generate disgust and contemplating the negative results from desire.
In the Mahayana, desire is transformed through mind-training on compassion. Meaning, if one feels desire, one can pray and aspire that by feeling desire and suffering from its ill-effects, one will be able to take on the sufferings of all beings and relieve them from needing to go through similar sufferings.
In the Vajrayana, desire is not avoided or transformed as in the Hinayana and Mahayana but is instead utilised in the practice. Just as poison is eaten by a peacock to make its feather colors brighter and more brilliant. At this point, the practitioner is very advanced.
At these high levels, the person needs to access a very subtle level of mind to deepen his realisation of emptiness. He is not like the ordinary person who is filled with desire. If you have not reached such a level and not obtained permission from the guru, to do such practices will almost be certain to fling you into hell in your next life as it is a huge abuse of the Buddha's teachings.
Sadly though, it seems that many people nowadays are trying very hard to go to the hell realms
Tantric practices are controvesial, however, it is not unique, there is the "Ying Yang Jing" are sexual cultivation in Taoist practice.
It practises the non-ejaculation of seminal fluid and and the absorption of female essences during copulation. The essences are then reabsorbed back to the body for the cultivation of longevity. The idea is to live long enough to realise "Tao". Saliva secreted during meditation is also swallowed. These are all considered elixirs.
The references can be found in the "Su Nu Jing" or the plain girl treatise, if I remember correctly. This is essentially a bedroom arts manual used in the ancient times.
Other less controvesial practices are the ; "Yi Jing Jing" the "Moving Tendon Treatise", and the "Xi Shui Jing" , the "Cleansing Marrow Treatise". However, whether these two treatises originate from Taoism, I am not so sure!
Please do not be mistaken.
Tantric practices are very sound, based on fundamental Buddhist principles. However, people like to focus on the controversial aspects which are actually meant for the very advanced practitioners. If one studies the tantric practices properly with the guidance of a proper teacher, it is very clear that tantra is a very profound method utilising all aspects of life in one's practice to accelerate progress in realisation of emptiness or nature of mind.
These methods have been taught by Lord Buddha himself and passed on to the other great bodhisattvas like Vajrapani. It is not something contrived by ordinary beings. But however, since it is something that is prone to mistaken interpretation, it is seldom talked about or revealed.
Even nowadays when alot of teachings on the vajrayana is being spread around mass media, i think it is not even remotely possible to penetrate the essence and important points of the teachings without guidance of teacher and personal experience of the teachings. Superficial understanding is not enough and may lead to wrong conclusions. So please don't just rely on books or internet articles to make judgements. Since Vajrayana is dharma, to slander or make wrong comments about Vajrayana that create confusion in others will be tantamount to abandoning the dharma. Which is a very very serious karma.
weychin, with regard to what you have brought up about the taoist practices. From my limited understanding, i think it is very different from tantric practice. As different as heaven from earth.
The Vajrayana school of Buddhism spread to China, Mongolia, and Tibet. In Tibet, Vajrayana has always been a main component of Tibetan Buddhism, while in China it formed a separate sect. However, Vajrayana Buddhism became extinct in China but survived in elements of Japan's Shingon and Tendai sects.
There are differing views as to just when VajrayÄ�na and its tantric practice started. In the Tibetan tradition, it is claimed that the historical ÅšÄ�kyamuni Buddha taught tantra, but as these are esoteric teachings, they were passed on orally first and only written down long after the Buddha's other teachings. NÄ�landÄ� University became a center for the development of VajrayÄ�na theory and continued as the source of leading-edge VajrayÄ�na practices up through the 11th century. These practices, scriptures and theories were transmitted to China, Tibet, Indochina and Southeast Asia. China generally received Indian transmission up to the 11th century including tantric practice, while a vast amount of what is considered to be Tibetan Buddhism (VajrayÄ�na) stems from the late (9th–12th century) NÄ�landÄ� tradition.
In one of the first major contemporary academic treatises on the subject, Fairfield University professor Ronald M. Davidson argues that the rise of Vajrayana was in part a reaction to the changing political climate in India at the time. With the fall of the Gupta dynasty, in an increasingly fractious political environment, institutional Buddhism had difficulty attracting patronage, and the folk movement led by siddhas became more prominent. After perhaps two hundred years, it had begun to get integrated into the monastic establishment.[176][page needed]
Vajrayana combined and developed a variety of elements, a number of which had already existed for centuries.[177] In addition to the Mah�y�na scriptures, Vajray�na Buddhists recognise a large body of Buddhist Tantras, some of which are also included in Chinese and Japanese collections of Buddhist literature, and versions of a few even in the Pali Canon.
VajrayÄ�na Buddhism (Devanagari: वजà¥�रयान; Mongolian: Очирт хөлгөн, Ochirt Hölgön) is also known as Tantric Buddhism, TantrayÄ�na, MantrayÄ�na, Secret Mantra, Esoteric Buddhism and the Diamond Vehicle. The period of Vajrayana Buddhism has been classified as the fifth[1] or final[2] period of Indian Buddhism. Vajrayana is a complex and multifaceted system which evolved over several centuries and reveals much inconsistency and a variety of opinions.[2] Vajrayana probably came into existence in the 6th or 7th century CE,[1] while the term Vajrayana first came into evidence in the 8th century CE.[2] Its scriptures are called the Tantras.[2] The distinctive feature of Vajrayana Buddhism is ritual, which is used as a substitute or alternative for the earlier abstract meditations.[3][4]
Vajrayana scriptures say that Vajrayana refers to one of three routes to enlightenment, the other two being Hinayana and Mahayana.
Tibetan Buddhism
The Tibetan Buddhist schools, based on the lineages and textual traditions of the Kangyur and Tengyur of Tibet, are found in Tibet, Bhutan, northern India, Nepal, southwestern and northern China, Mongolia and various constituent republics of Russia that are adjacent to the area, such as Amur Oblast, Buryatia, Chita Oblast, the Tuva Republic and Khabarovsk Krai. Tibetan Buddhism is also the main religion in Kalmykia.
Vajrayana Buddhism was established in Tibet in the 8th Century when Ś�ntarakṣita was brought to Tibet from India at the instigation of the Dharma King Trisong Detsen, some time before 767 CE. He established the basis of what later came to be known as the Nyingma school. As a Tantric Mahasiddha Padmasambhava's contribution ensured that Tibetan Buddhism became part of the Vajrayana tradition. While Vajrayana Buddhism is a part of Tibetan Buddhism in that it forms a core part of every major Tibetan Buddhist school, it is not identical with it. Buddhist scholar Alexander Berzin refers to "the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions of Tibetan Buddhism".[35] Training in the "common paths" of Sutra (including Lamrim) are said to be the foundation for the "uncommon path" of Vajrayana.[36] The Vajrayana techniques add 'skillful means' to the general Mahayana teachings for advanced students. The 'skillful means' of the Vajrayana in Tibetan Buddhism refers to tantra techniques, Dzogchen (Tibetan:maha-ati) and Mahamudra (Tibetan:Chagchen).
Originally posted by wisdomeye:Please do not be mistaken.
Tantric practices are very sound, based on fundamental Buddhist principles. However, people like to focus on the controversial aspects which are actually meant for the very advanced practitioners. If one studies the tantric practices properly with the guidance of a proper teacher, it is very clear that tantra is a very profound method utilising all aspects of life in one's practice to accelerate progress in realisation of emptiness or nature of mind.
These methods have been taught by Lord Buddha himself and passed on to the other great bodhisattvas like Vajrapani. It is not something contrived by ordinary beings. But however, since it is something that is prone to mistaken interpretation, it is tseldom talked about or revealed.
Even nowadays when alot of teachings on the vajrayana is being spread around mass media, i think it is not even remotely possible to penetrate the essence and important points of the teachings without guidance of teacher and personal experience of the teachings. Superficial understanding is not enough and may lead to wrong conclusions. So please don't just rely on books or internet articles to make judgements. Since Vajrayana is dharma, to slander or make wrong comments about Vajrayana that create confusion in others will be tantamount to abandoning the dharma. Which is a very very serious karma.
weychin, with regard to what you have brought up about the taoist practices. From my limited understanding, i think it is very different from tantric practice. As different as heaven from earth.
The emphasis of his question is based on explicit sexual content.
Yoga means union, can either be practised with a real consort or with a spiritual one.
Taoist is also a spiritual cultivation, "Ying Yang Jing" is only one aspect of it,not for pleasure, unlike kama sutra. It also emphasizes on emptiness and awareness of process.
What I like to highlight is one can easily past judgement on surface things. Another question, we as humans are born of union of man and woman, are we then a product of a profane act?
The emphasis of his question is based on explicit sexual content.
Yoga means union, can either be practised with a real consort or with a spiritual one.
Taoist is also a spiritual cultivation, "Ying Yang Jing" is only one aspect of it,not for pleasure, unlike kama sutra. It also emphasizes on emptiness and awareness of process.
What I like to highlight is one can easily pass judgement on of surface things. Another question, we as humans are born of union of man and woman, are we then a product of a profane act?
Originally posted by Weychin:The emphasis of his question is based on explicit sexual content.
Yoga means union, can either be practised with a real consort or with a spiritual one.
Taoist is also a spiritual cultivation, "Ying Yang Jing" is only one aspect of it,not for pleasure, unlike kama sutra. It also emphasizes on emptiness and awareness of process.
What I like to highlight is one can easily pass judgement on of surface things. Another question, we as humans are born of union of man and woman, are we then a product of a profane act?
Hi Weychin,
Tried to read carefully to avoid misunderstanding. Actually i dun know whether we are on the same track.
Sorry, but I dun want to discuss tantra or consort practice further here. As i've said, i'm just a novice in Buddhism. I'm only interested to make it clear that tantra and Tibetan Buddhism (of which, Tantra is only a part of) is not as people interpret it to be. Tantra is completely in line with Buddhist principles which is to remove desire, anger and ignorance totally and attain Buddhahood and the main way to do that is to realise Emptiness.
Anyway, to address your question above.
Desire caused our rebirth in samsara. On the other hand, this is the birth by which we obtained the chance to have intelligence and to engage in dharma practice and so forth. So it is also a precious birth. Depends on how you see it.
Anyway, this question doesn't help much. Whether it is pure or not, we are already here and we have to make the best of our existence to spiritually advance on the path until Buddhahood so that we can be of greatest benefit to beings.
Thanks for the contribution
It bothers me when i read it... just doesnt make sense to me. It's like playing rpg games using some heros with dark magic but on the good side.
Controversial but unable to explain it. No sexual misconduct but this practise somehow emphasize on something we dont really understands. Perhaps that's why it's esoteric.
Sometimes we tend to be judgemental about things without realising it. It is not not wrong, just the way we've been inculcated. I just wish to arouse your thoughts, hoping to widen your perspective!
As there people uncomfortable discussing this issue, here a link for further reading:-
TIBETIAN BUDDHISM is weird.
I saw in TV (star hub)
They gt many myths and legend in it.
What lake what holy mountain. funny myths .........
but the tibetians believed in all those holy places.
supertitious
Bodhistava tears form a lake wadsoeva.
Originally posted by xXIron_fistXx:TIBETIAN BUDDHISM is weird.
I saw in TV (star hub)
They gt many myths and legend in it.
What lake what holy mountain. funny myths .........
but the tibetians believed in all those holy places.
supertitious
Bodhistava tears form a lake wadsoeva.
There will always be myths and legends in many cultures, not just Tibetan! Just as some t will believe as fact, and swear by their beliefs, others take it as it is; myths and legends!
If you are a Singaporean, should I laugh at you because there exist a myth about the Merlion?
Tibetan Buddhism is about skillful means, as parallels, have you heard of Aesops fables or parables?
Originally posted by xXIron_fistXx:TIBETIAN BUDDHISM is weird.
I saw in TV (star hub)
They gt many myths and legend in it.
What lake what holy mountain. funny myths .........
but the tibetians believed in all those holy places.
supertitious
Bodhistava tears form a lake wadsoeva.
just as xtians believe jerusalem, bethelem were holy places..
and that the a person could walk on water, healing the blind..arent these myths and legends?
and that many covet the holy grail, practise icon worship, religiously treasure physical objects such as shroud of turin, werent these superstitious beliefs?
how is it that xtians could practise all these and accuse others of superstitious beliefs? i am still amazed
Originally posted by Weychin:As there people uncomfortable discussing this issue, here a link for further reading:-
Dear Weychin,
It is just that I dun want to mislead others. Due to human nature, there is a great possibility of abuse of this teaching.
Originally posted by 2009novice:Thanks for the contribution
It bothers me when i read it... just doesnt make sense to me. It's like playing rpg games using some heros with dark magic but on the good side.
Controversial but unable to explain it. No sexual misconduct but this practise somehow emphasize on something we dont really understands. Perhaps that's why it's esoteric.
dear 2009novice,
dun bother to read all such related materials, it is not useful now. there is no sexual misconduct for such practices at all. It is totally not considered sexual intercourse. It is not involving mundane desire.
I understand your concerns.
Originally posted by xXIron_fistXx:TIBETIAN BUDDHISM is weird.
I saw in TV (star hub)
They gt many myths and legend in it.
What lake what holy mountain. funny myths .........
but the tibetians believed in all those holy places.
supertitious
Bodhistava tears form a lake wadsoeva.
dear xxironfist,
pls respect other peoples' belief and traditions. One day, you may greatly appreciate other peoples' respect towards your own belief and traditions too.
I wont post here anymore
Sorry for my comments.
Originally posted by xXIron_fistXx:Sorry for my comments.
nah you are not really repentent.
You said you wont believe in Buddhism, that is fine and alright. You think people believed there is a god lol. there are so many contradictions and paradoxes with the concept of god esp the bible. go figure it urself.
Allow an off topic question:-
How old are you xXIron_fistXx ?