Originally posted by An Eternal Now:The initial glimpse of your true nature can come in a few years if you're diligent. Full liberation usually takes over 10 years (from the few I've seen), though if you are a very diligent monk, I don't know, maybe shorter. I would also note however that it is definitely possible for a lay man to become enlightened - My enlightened teachers and friends who are living are all lay man currently, even though my Master was a monk (he passed away).
The Buddha actually promises that by practicing the four foundations of mindfulness, one could become enlightened as an anagami or arhat within as little as 7 days and no more than 7 years. I think it is possible but one would have to be very engaged in that practice in a retreat setting.
Have you witness any ordinary buddhists (Singaporeans and foreigners) attain liberation?
Originally posted by 2009novice:7 days.....? this is..... very fast! I thought it supposed to take us a lifetime to understand..... interesting....
U are not lying right hahah (joking)
Not kidding.
As the Buddha said in Mahasatipatthana Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.22.0.than.html
"Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven years, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or — if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance — non-return.
"Let alone seven years. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for six years... five... four... three... two years... one year... seven months... six months... five... four... three... two months... one month... half a month, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or — if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance — non-return.
"Let alone half a month. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven days, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or — if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance — non-return.
"'This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding — in other words, the four frames of reference.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said."
That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words.
7 days is not the shortest: there are records of those who immediately attained liberation after hearing the Buddha's discourse. It is rare though.
Originally posted by Dondontan:Have you witness any ordinary buddhists (Singaporeans and foreigners) attain liberation?
Many.
let me share some of my understanding here, i stand to be corrected by the seniors.
dondontan, to address your queries
liberation is to get out of endless cycle of birth-and-death, meaning you are no longer at the mercy of your own karma to undergo rebirth over and over again. The main reason why this is even possible is that the mechanism of birth-and-death is maintained based on the illusion of a self. This illusion does not conform to reality and when it is dissolved through meditation on emptiness, then one can stop taking rebirth, driven by karma.
There are however two main approaches to doing this. This is usually called the Hinayana and Mahayana paths. The ultimate goal of the Hinayana path is to attain the fruition of Arhat. There are generally four categories of fruition on the Hinayana path all labelled enlightenment but it is only at Arhatship, the fourth level of enlightenment that one is actually liberated from birth and death cycle, the prior three has not completely actualised the wisdom that realises selflessness completely.
On the Mahayana path, it is said that the fruition is Buddhahood. Which is the ultimate conclusion to the spiritual path because he has perfected both the benefit for himself and the benefit for others. To achieve that, one has to perfect both the stores of merit and wisdom. And the practitioners on this path has to take the Bodhisattva vow, generate the intention to liberate all mother sentient beings (the intention of bodhichitta, or awakening mind) and also practice the 6 or 10 paramitas...
In terms of time, it is said that the Arhatship can be achieved in three lives. While the Buddhahood takes three countless aeons in the general mahayana path and can take up to 16 lives, 7 lives, 3 lives or 1 life in the extraordinary path of vajrayana which is a subsect of the mahayana path, utilising special skilful means.
There are many differences between Arhats and Buddhas but i'd outline just a few that i can think of. Firstly Arhats while having being liberated from samsara, have not reached spiritual perfection, this is because while they have realised fully the emptiness of self, they have not actualised fully emptiness of other phenomenon. In terms of obscurations, they have not fully purified the obscurations to omniscience leading them to be still far from the state of full omniscience (all knowing) that the Buddhas possess. For instance, in terms of their knowledge of past lives, it is said that Arhats can only see back into 500 lives, while Buddhas can see the three times (past, present, future) unimpededly without limit.
Furthermore, it is said that the Arhats due to not having emphasized the first 5 paramitas and accumulated merit, nor generated Bodhichitta, being more or less focussed on only liberating himself from samsara only, is not able to accomplish the extensive benefit of sentient beings as a Buddha is able to through the limitless emanations of his form-bodies (rupakaya). At a certain point, after a very long period of time in the state of nirvana (state of extinction/cessation), the Arhat will be awakened from his samadhi (deep meditation) by light-rays from a Buddha and exhorted to engage in the Mahayana path and thereby go on to traverse the Bodhisattva stages, and in the end, accomplishing Buddhahood too. Thus it is said that Arhat path is a prolonged path, from the perspective of attaining Buddhahood. Of course, this is the general explanation, in practice, there are always exceptions and special circumstances.
If we are talking about Bodhisttvas like Guan Yin, Di Zang Pusa, etc. They have vowed to put aside their own Buddhahood and focus on working to save beings and bringing them to Buddhahood. Strangely, it seems that this altruism is the very source of the high spiritual qualities they possess and it seems although they have vowed to go behind everyone else, but they are by some natural law, already far ahead... anyway i digress here.
If one is talking about ordinary people attaining the fruitions, i assume that you are talking about people with no prior contact to Buddhism in past lives, having only started on the path in this life. In each case, it is hard to say because everyone's store of merit is different. However, whether one is in the category of ordinary people or not is also not sure. Maybe one has already been on this path before, only one does not know.
The Buddha kindly bestowed countless methods to liberate beings and each method suits different people. Similarly, walking either the Hinayana or Mahayana path is dependent on one's inclinations and past karmic connection.
yes in terms of knowledge, arhats and buddhahood are different, but that is not the point. to be a buddha, the path you took is much much longer than arhats, that is why the Buddha has to practise the perfections and it will take aeons. for arhats, the path is not as long as compared to buddhahood, but the main thing is liberation from suffering. to want to be buddhahood is one thing, to want to be liberated is another thing.
the buddha's original teachings has no distinction between mahayana or hinayana or theravada. its only later on after the buddha's death, 500 years I think the distinction ocurred. during the buddha's time, there were no mahayana nor hinayana, only one teachings.
Originally posted by wisdomeye:dear Rooney,
yes Buddhahood and Liberation is not the same thing per se... Buddha path needs courage. I think one recent Arhat, he was walking Bodhi path for many lives then suddenly that life, he decided, he lost his courage, then he choose to go for Arhatship in that life. Such things do happen. Vajrayana can complete Buddhahood very fast due to special skilful means...
Umm... my history not good. But definitely the three pathways, Maha, Hina and Vajra, Buddha did make great clear distinctions. And such distinctions are of course necessary for many reasons.
He also did say in the Sutra of Great Liberation that three vehicles are actually one vehicle. Yes, anyway, the ultimate result is the same. Emptiness is not different in different vehicles. But your path, the methods, speed, the merit, the benefit you bring to beings, the aspirations, etc etc... great difference
Anyone before 8th bhumi still has a chance of falling back into Arhat path.
Think got a story from the sutra of devas testing a Bodhisattva... dunno was it Manjusri. On his bodhisattva resolve. First attempt he passed, second he faltered and almost went back to Hinayana.
It was about someone wanting his eye to cure a disease or something... can't remember the whole story but the person (the deva, actually) squashed the eyeball that the bodhisattva gouged out for him, or something. The bodhisattva thought that sentient beings are hopeless and that it was better for him to practice for his own liberation. It was then that the devas revealed themselves.
p.s. anyway, Zen tradition in Mahayana Buddhism also emphasizes a quick path to awakening.
in mahayana sutra as you have quoted the Buddha did mentioned. but in the theravada sutra, the buddha did not make this distinction. I leave it up to you to arrive your conclusion.
last time I have difficulty reconciling mahayana and theravda sutras. I have since found the answers to my question in regards to this.
in the theravada sutras, mahayana is not talked about.
in the mahayana sutras, tantra is not talked about
in the tantras related to certain form-based practices, the dzogchen view is not mentioned.
the higher systems of philosophy can include the lower systems of philosophy whereas it is not so vice versa.
for instance, in secondary school texts, can talk about primary school subject material and so on...
the word 'higher' or 'lower' is merely used in this case for the purpose of communicating, please dun read too much into it. All practices shd fit one's disposition.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Anyone before 8th bhumi still has a chance of falling back into Arhat path.
Think got a story from the sutra of devas testing a Bodhisattva... dunno was it Manjusri. On his bodhisattva resolve. First attempt he passed, second he faltered and almost went back to Hinayana.
It was about someone wanting his eye to cure a disease or something... can't remember the whole story but the person (the deva, actually) squashed the eyeball that the bodhisattva gouged out for him, or something. The bodhisattva thought that sentient beings are hopeless and that it was better for him to practice for his own liberation. It was then that the devas revealed themselves.
p.s. anyway, Zen tradition in Mahayana Buddhism also emphasizes a quick path to awakening.
If I didn't remember wrongly, it was Sariputra in one of his past lives as a practising Bodhisattva. That is partly why from what I have understood and reflected upon so far that Sariputra, although known as the Number One in Wisdom, attained Arahanthood and not that of resolute Bodhisattvahood.
This story has a great impact on me. Hence if you were to ask me, I'm neither a Theravada, Mahayana or Vajrayana practitioner.
Originally posted by Rooney9:in mahayana sutra as you have quoted the Buddha did mentioned. but in the theravada sutra, the buddha did not make this distinction. I leave it up to you to arrive your conclusion.
last time I have difficulty reconciling mahayana and theravda sutras. I have since found the answers to my question in regards to this.
If you don't mind I wish to listen to what you have found out. I too have difficulty reconciling Mahayana and Theravada teachings, other than the 4 Noble Truths, 8fold path, 3 characteristics and so on.
If you don't wish to say it here, please pm me.